Question about bonuses. (in General)

QBRanger December 16 2009 2:43 PM EST

Right now, in the current tourney there is a 7400% tournament bonus.

Let us say I get a 100% challenge bonus.

Is this additive or multiplicative?

IE does I get a 7500% bonus or 14800% bonus?

I have a feeling it may be multiplicative as a -100% challenge bonus yield barely any rewards.

But I just want to make certain.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 16 2009 2:46 PM EST

multiplicative. Clan bonus and exp time bonus are also multiplicative so when it is put together it increases the amount you get by a lot.

Little Anthony December 16 2009 3:05 PM EST


Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 16 2009 3:06 PM EST

from my experience they are additive.

AdminShade December 16 2009 3:08 PM EST

With such a huge bonus, having either +100% or -99% challenge bonus would hardly make any difference if it were additive.

Because having a decent challenge bonus is generating massively bigger rewards, I also believe them to be multiplicative. But perhaps NS can confirm this?

QBsutekh137 December 16 2009 3:16 PM EST

Wait, we are covering a lot of ground here...

We start with the "bonus" bonus, e.g. the NCB/NUB.

Then there are "extra" bonuses: challenge bonuses, clan bonuses, and "wacky time" bonuses.

Are you saying that if I am running a NUB at, say, 700% bonus, then have a clan bonus of 10%, my bonus is only 710% of normal rewards? So if my experience gained would have been 100 XP per minion, that goes up to:

700% of 100 is 700, meaning total reward at that point is 800 XP per minion. Another 10% on top of that takes us to 880 XP.

-- OR --

710% of 100 is 710 added to the original 100, for only 810 XP.

I thought the extra bonuses were additive, but then all the extra bonuses are multiplicative with the N*B? So, if I get a 100% challenge bonus during wacky XP time (60%), and have a clan bonus of 10%, that would be:

100 + 60 + 10 = 170% multiplied on whatever normal or inflated bonus I am already on.

Is that right?

QBsutekh137 December 16 2009 3:21 PM EST

And to clarify (because I always mess this up in my own head), the percentage notation has a built in 100% already. In other words, if I have a 100% challenge bonus, it does not mean I just get the 100% of rewards I should. It means I get an ADDITIONAL 100%, meaning I have really multiplied my original rewards by 2, or 200%.

So, a clan bonus of 10% does not multiply your rewards by 0.0 it multiplies them by 1.1. And, as I understand it, all the "extra" bonuses add up and are then multiplied into the rewards as already augmented by N*B according to what I just said above...

Clarification would be excellent -- I'm making my head hurt, and I've still got three hours of work to get through! *smile*

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 16 2009 3:21 PM EST

that is what i thought as well sut! ; )

except there is a hidden factor with rewards somewhere in there as well.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 16 2009 3:22 PM EST

No, I have tested all the bonuses except for the ncb bonus itself and they are all multiplicative. This means that if you have a 10% challenge bonus and a 10% clan bonus you are not getting a 20% bonus but rather a 100% (base) * 1.10 * 1.10 for a 21% total bonus. When you include the n*b and exp time it can get to be quite an increase.

QBsutekh137 December 16 2009 3:22 PM EST

What hidden factor? I thought the "hidden" factor was simply challenge bonus, which is no longer hidden? It used to be, but has displayed in post-battle stats for a while now...

Lochnivar December 16 2009 3:24 PM EST

this is CB Sut....
...there is ALWAYS a hidden factor!

QBRanger December 16 2009 3:24 PM EST

So back to the example in my first post.

Is the bonus I get 14800% or 7500%?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 16 2009 3:25 PM EST


Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 16 2009 3:25 PM EST

i will try to find the post, but i believe it was jon referred to it even after that point. it is additional to the challenge bonus and someone fighting higher gets higher rewards due to it. we were just never sure if it was score, vpr or some other stat.

QBsutekh137 December 16 2009 3:28 PM EST

Wow, I had no idea. Yes, that would mean a 100% challenge bonus during wacky times and a 10% clan bonus would be:

After the 100% challenge bonus:
base of 100 becomes 200

After the 60% wacky bonus:
200 becomes 320

After the 10% clan bonus:
320 becomes 352

-- VS. --

Adding the bonuses = 100 + 60 + 10 = 170%, so a base of 100 would become 100 + 170, or 270.

That's 352 vs 270, where 352 represents around a 30% increase on 270!

No wonder the N*B is so hard to calibrate fairly. :\ With all of these bonuses and numbers flying around, it is almost impossible to predict how well (or poorly) a N*B run is going to go, especially now that almost 5 years of CB-time are condensed into six months!

QBsutekh137 December 16 2009 3:30 PM EST

dudemus, I thought that reward was simply the ratio'd fact that at 6/20 one has fewer battles, so naturally the reward scale is normalized to account for BA accrual differences.

If there is ANOTHER hidden factor:

Why can't we see it?

Why does CB have to be so complicated in this regard. Seems relatively straightforward to me. :\

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 16 2009 3:33 PM EST

i remember variations even within the sub zones of ba regen zones and i believe that was the confirmation post i am trying to find.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 16 2009 3:34 PM EST

You are talking about the modifiers to base rewards?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 16 2009 3:55 PM EST

what i am remembering was actually a post by ns before he became a dev. after re reading that whole thread though i have to wonder if ns still feels the same?
AdminNightStrike January 12 2008 10:40 AM EST

Remember that there is an unknown hidden bonus for fighting clan characters, though I guess since everyone only fights clan characters, that becomes moot..

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 16 2009 4:22 PM EST

"hidden" bonus is base rewards being adjusted based on opponent score, it's how I'm getting decent rewards for losses with my T char by fighting NWO

QBsutekh137 December 16 2009 5:22 PM EST

But why is there a bonus for that? Challenge bonus is already "you're PR" vs "their score" -- why is score counted twice as far as bonus calcs go?

Bonuses should be really really simply, conceptually. I'm not saying challenge bonus isn't specifically interesting to calculate, or that keeping the score ladder reasonably balanced isn't a chore, but from there, calculations should be as simple as possible with nothing left hidden.

Why show us and explain every factor on rewards except one? Might as well hide the whole works if you hide any part.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 16 2009 6:06 PM EST

What would you use for base rewards Sut?

For a while I was convinced (mostly because someone else explained it that way) that base rewards were calculated from opponent PR. Jon directly contradicted that and stated they were based on opponent score.
I bet then complication of rewards didn't bother you so much when challenge bonuses were still guess work and myth. It's knowing part of the ingredients that's spoiling it for you!

QBsutekh137 December 17 2009 12:09 AM EST

nov, knowing rewards really doesn't matter a fat fig to me right now. I don't fight. Why would it matter?

I have always known it is my total PR vs their score. That's it. That's called challenge bonus. And it is transparent.

Why have another, hidden factor?

AdminShade December 17 2009 12:36 AM EST

perhaps the tournament bonus is handled differently?

QBRanger December 17 2009 12:41 AM EST

I think the "hidden factor" being typed about is the bonus you get for fighting higher score characters. Regardless of challenge bonus.


Heroes does not get a negative challenge bonus.

But when I fight and beat Law at 6M score, I will get higher xp and money than if I fight and beat Bob at 2M score.

That difference in beating someone with a higher score is the "hidden factor".

Jon did in fact confirm that you get a better base rewards due to fighting higher scores.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 17 2009 3:47 AM EST

Isn't that the Challenge bonus though? Or rather shouldn't that be the challenge bonus?

Why do we get increased rewards for fighting higher Scores, and then increased rewards from fighting higher Scores?

AdminNightStrike December 17 2009 7:15 AM EST

Wow, there's a lot of information flying around in this thread. I can say that some of it is correct, and some of it is not.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 17 2009 7:20 AM EST


QBsutekh137 December 17 2009 9:46 AM EST

Gee, thanks NS.

I can see what Ranger is saying...that even if there is no appreciable challenge bonus (because difference between your-PR and their-score is negligible), one should still get higher rewards from beating a 6 million score vs. a 2 million score.

In that case, I'd just like to see the bonus. Call it "Score Ladder Bonus" and show it in post-battle stats.

Especially since bonuses are multiplicative, something as small as a few percentage points can make a fair amount of difference (especially as the N*B grows bigger, and bigger, and bigger. And bigger.

If there is no reason to hide the challenge bonus, I see no reason to hide the score-ladder bonus. In fact, maybe it would lead some huge teams to cut back on bottom feeding for clan points. There is no downside to displaying that bonus factor.

For anyone who says things shouldn't be too easy, then fine. Remove all post-battle stats. Make every battle a mathematical sludge walk. The game isn't supposed to be about tedium, and if it is, make it ALL about tedium. Anything in between is inconsistent.

QBsutekh137 December 17 2009 9:51 AM EST

Hm, showing a score ladder bonus might be hard (and a misnomer, at least the way I was using it) if the opponent's score is simply a variable in the way base rewards are calculated. That isn't really a post-multiplier at all, in that case. So maybe that is why it doesn't display. The most that could display would be something like "Non-randomized base reward value" so that one could ratio a low target base reward to a high target base reward.

But maybe that really WOULD be making it too easy, since it would even be doing and end-run around the randomness. *smile* And I suppose enough people have done the analysis so as to sort of know that number. Has anyone come up with a ratio table? In other words, all bonuses aside, how much bigger will my reward be if beating a 5 million score vs. beating a 4 million score? What about 6 million vs. 3 million?
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