NW-PR: Punishment or Balance for NW (in Debates)


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2010 1:28 PM EST

I recently hit 5m MPR, Nemerizt after hiring his minion was only about 30k mpr behind me. In the month or two since then he's gained so much ground on me he's now only around 3000 mpr behind me. This is a direct result of me attempting to beat everyone. Between my weapon plus and Steeds I'm more than a mil ahead of the nearest char in terms of power.

I don't think it's fair or good for the game to make more powerful chars grow slower, the system needs a change. The item market has been crap and declining since NW-PR was implement, it sucks to have to explain to new users the buying and upgrading items is the worst thing they can do to grow a team. Items are fun... I'd like to see CB be more fun, not less.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2010 1:32 PM EST

grrr, I should have slept... he's still 36861 behind me according to standings (he says it's more like 22k)

My point still stands (though he's catching up slower than I thought)
as he was apparently almost 70k behind me directly after hiring.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 3 2010 1:33 PM EST

PR only doesn't help if you would be getting a fair amount of challenge bonus if you had it reduced. You also get better rewards for having higher PR.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2010 1:34 PM EST

I think you mean MPR, I've never see evidence that adding PR increases rewards.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 3 2010 1:41 PM EST

it is a choice though and choices are fun. this makes cb more fun than a usd race, imho.

do you have any data to back up the correlation of the decline in the item market to the nw pr linkage?

i see the decline in item prices (the market seems fine to me and prices are what is declining) as linked to the reduction in liquid cash through reduced battle rewards.

AdminTitan January 3 2010 1:41 PM EST

I already tried this argument. People don't see the light.

QBRanger January 3 2010 1:47 PM EST

The alternative is worse.

Letting people equip items of immense NW without any repercussions.

Then we will have 2 characters, one with 1B in NW and the other with 100M in NW both having the same M/PR, having the same challenge bonuses, having the same rewards.

Is that better?

AdminTitan January 3 2010 1:49 PM EST

Yes.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2010 2:17 PM EST

I don't see being punished for trying to win as fun.

I'm not advocating a CB1 style system with no limitation on the size of weapon you can equip (in actuality, I believe NW comparisons factored into rewards even on CB1). I'm just saying the rewards system needs something to make having a good team less painful.

QBRanger January 3 2010 2:19 PM EST

No, but removing NW-PR does accentuate USD advantage.

Lord Bob January 3 2010 2:19 PM EST

Letting people equip items of immense NW without any repercussions.

We already have Encumbrance. Use that instead.

Or, every team should get a small PR allowance the way tanks used to. Go over that, and you get slammed.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 3 2010 2:21 PM EST

You do not get reduced rewards for having a higher PR. I can sometimes get more rewards from getting a challenge bonus, but that is hardly the only thing I am doing to catch up. Also Mikel and Rawr have taken to stalemating small teams to drop their score enough to stop me from getting any challenge bonus most of the time.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 3 2010 2:21 PM EST

is dagobah that limited...what is his net worth?

QBRanger January 3 2010 2:21 PM EST

True,

But ENC is so broken at the top.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2010 2:23 PM EST

Fighting USD by punishing everyone is silly

AdminTitan January 3 2010 2:23 PM EST

I think I hear an echo.

Lord Bob January 3 2010 2:29 PM EST

Fighting USD by punishing everyone is silly.

Correct.

(^ That was an echo. *grin*)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2010 2:29 PM EST

With 13m str I'm still right at the cap for enc on my tank... and over on two other minions.

Encumbered at: 404,102,691

Net Worth: $389,651,543

250m of that NW is my ELS. It only actually makes a difference in one fight. So after spending a crapload of money to beat someone I get to have 950k PR added that is useless against everyone but Mikel.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 3 2010 2:33 PM EST

Net Worth $939,368,320

is the rest the tat then?

that is just under one billion net worth!

QBRanger January 3 2010 2:35 PM EST

Then you have a choice.

Equip the ELS to beat Mikel and drive up your PR or

Not equip it and have a lower PR and lose/not beat 1 person.

But I find it foolish to believe equipping a 250M NW weapon adding nothing to your POWER rating.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 3 2010 2:37 PM EST

Fighting USD by punishing everyone is silly.


it really isn't punishing me though, i still have a challenge bonus. it is not the system punishing you but your own choices, no?

some of us are actually being rewarded under the same system for managing our net worth.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2010 2:37 PM EST

Isn't the point winning? Why should I be crippled for trying to succeed. Hard to believe a good reganite would advocate for a system like this...

Lochnivar January 3 2010 2:41 PM EST

actually Dude, I'm fairly sure that if nov dropped 2mil PR the resulting drop in scores would nuke our challenge bonuses hard.

Really kind of a case of us being rewarded for nov's efforts.

Of course I don't know how reward calculations pre-challenge bonus are impacted here (if at all) and what kind of detriment (if any) is being applied to nov.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2010 2:43 PM EST

We'll find out soon...

QBRanger January 3 2010 2:46 PM EST

Isn't the point winning? Why should I be crippled for trying to succeed. Hard to believe a good reganite would advocate for a system like this...

How are you being penalized?

Are you not beating everyone and still not getting a negative bonus given your NW and PR.

I agree with you on removing the exception for the 6BA. But removing NW-PR, no.

If you really want to stop or slow down Nem's growth, then lose to a couple people, keep your score down so nobody gets a challenge bonus like yourself.

About the market for items, I think it has improved due to the disenchanting feature.

Lochnivar January 3 2010 2:46 PM EST

I realize this entails a bit of work, but isn't there a way of figuring base rewards?

Would a couple of battles against the same non-bonus char from Nem and Nov allow someone to calculate what difference there actually is?

(even if Nem and Nov just post the xp/cash gains from 4 or 5 fights I'd take a crack at the numbers later on)

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 3 2010 2:48 PM EST

If novice dropped 2 mil PR the only people who might be affected at all would be Ranger and Rawr (who farms Ranger). Otherwise scores really wouldn't be affected because no one is really able to farm novice and take away his score. The main people who are keeping the score up are KoP, AA, FTW, and NWO.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 3 2010 2:49 PM EST

I already calculated base rewards for the most part.

Demigod January 3 2010 2:58 PM EST

We already have Encumbrance. Use that instead.


I'm in a rush and don't have time to read all the responses, but I'm inclined to agree with this. I'd rather see encumbrance get tweaked than have both of these features.

Of course, I'm also in the minority of players who don't play with USD but still think it's fine to overpower characters with it (just not to the level of Todd-Spydah, which encumbrance should stop).

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 3 2010 2:59 PM EST

as i see it, the two sides of this pendulum are unlimited usd influence or a totally closed system where no transfers are allowed.

one allows success in the real world to equate to success in the game if so desired. the other extreme closes it off so that success in the game world is based solely upon the game world. i prefer the latter as it makes the game experience mean more, in my opinion, when it cannot be bought.

what we have in cbland is something between. you can spend usd but have to deal with the consequences. i think the balance is just now starting to be more crucial than in the past and i have more respect for that balance than i used to. i attribute this to the fact that we just hadn't reached the tipping point.

we will have to see how it ages, but i like the choices we have now and the fact that you can't really just throw more money at it to do better.

iBananco [Blue Army] January 3 2010 3:02 PM EST

There's never going to be a fair system. There's no way to distinguish USD NW from regular NW, and therefore no real way to limit USD spending without hobbling high-NW, non-USD items as well.

AdminNightStrike January 3 2010 3:02 PM EST

Novice, why do you think you are growing slower because of your PR?

Lord Bob January 3 2010 3:40 PM EST

Lower challenge bonus.

iBananco [Blue Army] January 3 2010 3:43 PM EST

What's a challenge bonus?

Lord Bob January 3 2010 3:44 PM EST

http://www.carnageblender.com/wiki/Challenge+Bonus

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2010 3:47 PM EST

What I don't get (and I hate myself for pointing it out) is how weapon damage is exempt from all this. If NW-PR is a good system, and accurately shows the power of a character then why exclude the most important part of a tank teams net worth.

AdminNightStrike January 3 2010 3:47 PM EST

LB - sarcasm :)

Lochnivar January 3 2010 3:52 PM EST

I assume, nov, that the damage is left out because without STR it does nothing.

iBananco [Blue Army] January 3 2010 4:47 PM EST

That's true of + too.

Lochnivar January 3 2010 4:55 PM EST

Perhaps then this is because PTH is main factor in multiple hits and thus differentiates weapons from mages?

... I dunno...
dang it all

TheHatchetman January 3 2010 5:01 PM EST

it sucks to have to explain to new users the buying and upgrading items is the worst thing they can do to grow a team.


New players? USD users? Hah! What about the gear set that I've spent the better part of 2 years working on, that I would be absolutely retarded for using before all semblance of a challenge bonus is gone? Encumbrance already stops me from using my gear until I have ~2.3m MPR in a single no-DX minion*. Then, between my tat, wall set, and weapon, my PR is damn near doubled*. So all the forging that was done to net me 412 AC, the 8-month job on my melee weapon, the not seeing my tattoo for the entire year of 2009, all for nothing until I have a character that has long since forgotten the meaning of score/PR.

I doubt my heavy tank is the only nw-reliant strategy that is being hampered and/or destroyed by NW-PR. I personally feel if encumbrance is too big to properly limit the net worth on a character/minion , reduce or tweak it in some way. NW-PR is just silly.

TheHatchetman January 3 2010 5:03 PM EST

* those numbers are estimates, it's been over a year since I've had a char capable of running a semi-successful heavy tank

Ancient Anubis January 3 2010 5:59 PM EST

as far as i was aware in the 6 ba range we receive no penalty for fighting no matter what stat comparisons we have. Nov i must ask does nems clan enjoy a larger clan bonus more often than your clan could that be what is allowing him to make up the dif.

QBRanger January 3 2010 6:03 PM EST

I think Nem gets a challenge bonus when he unequips his exbow vs Rawr and Mikel.

Novice has such a high MPR/PR that he gets no such bonus.

If you look at Nem's fightlogs, there are times where he just attack the 2 characters mentioned above.

Ancient Anubis January 3 2010 6:06 PM EST

what i'm adding though is band of wookies consistently gets 14%-15% clan fighting bonus where nov and others range between 14% down to 11% or even lower this can add up to a fair bit over time

Wraithlin January 3 2010 6:28 PM EST

I was going to make a long post with facts and reason, but facts and reason are so rarely used here in CB i just deleted it.

I'll summarize for you though:

Removing the NW-PR link is bad.

ENC needs to affect all stats and abilities if you want it to be the only thing that regulates NW, and you need to reduce it alot at high levels, since it doesn't regulate anything there.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 3 2010 6:48 PM EST

Nov, didn't we go through all this with the debate thread? ;)

I tihnk you answered yourself in your OP though.

>This is a direct result of me attempting to beat everyone.

That aside;

>I don't think it's fair or good for the game to make more powerful chars grow slower

They don't. The more 'Powerful' you are, the larger your base rewards are. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 3 2010 6:50 PM EST

(Old thread for reference, and I thought this was a General post, not a debate one! Soz!)

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002vo5

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2010 7:19 PM EST

You may purchase up to 0 BA for $1,412 apiece.


Unless that's the highest number paid for natural BA then I don't buy that the more PR you get the better your rewards are.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 3 2010 7:53 PM EST

Non bonus cost, right. ;)

But as far as I know, the larger you are, the larger your base rewards are. But I'm more than happy to be corrected on this, as I feel that is bad design. ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2010 7:55 PM EST

Larger your MPR is the more you pay for BA, the better your base rewards are. PR doesn't have anything to do with it as far as I know.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 3 2010 8:20 PM EST

I don't think it does. That's *why* the NW-PR link, as discussed in that other thread.

You say it kills fun, I say it brings balance.

It would be fun for me to be given a massive charcater (Twice the size of anyone elses), a weapon with more zero's than can fit on the screen, and enough AC to reduce all incoming damage to zero (For about a week, or so! :P).

But it wouldn't be balanced, especially not for everyone else I have to play with.

It's your choice to use any NW at all, and all of it (bar the silly way Weapon X is handled, but I think we agree on that! :P) interacts with your character, making you stronger.

For game balance this has to exist.

The number one character in the game, shouldn't have a "Challenge" Bonus at all, and I'd xpect a character with lesser MPR and NW in combination to recivce a 'bonus' for beating someone that much more larger/power than thenselves.

What's the punishment in that?

iBananco [Blue Army] January 3 2010 8:28 PM EST

I'm pretty sure nov's not complaining that a lower character beating a higher PR character gets a bonus. He's saying that even if a higher PR character is already beating someone, upping gear, even if it makes zero difference, reduces the challenge bonus.

AdminNightStrike January 3 2010 8:57 PM EST

reduces the challenge bonus


Past the zero it's already at?

Wraithlin January 3 2010 9:03 PM EST

If you're already beating someone there is no reason to up your gear level.

If you're looking to beat someone new then upping your gear level will help.

So yes, the current system works great. New gear lets you beat new people and get higher challenge bonuses, and if you're stupid enough to keep upping your gear for no reason after you can beat everyone on your current fight list (and can't put anyone else on it with the higher NW) you get penalized for it.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] January 3 2010 11:30 PM EST

I have to agree with those saying the system needs changes. NW-PR linking only serves to discourage you from buying rares and upgrading them for fear that it will lower your fighting bonuses. Why worry about a 10% bonus to your MM when it adds 100k PR? The current system is set up so rares and NW are a tiny bonus but a large burden. It only encourages selling out when you can run more efficiently naked.

Encumbrance is an unbalanced joke, being so high at the mid/top levels that it doesn't serve to effectively restrict or balance anything.

My solution: remove the NW-PR link completely. Cut overall encumbrance levels to 20% of where they are now, but have HP, DX, and especially ST give bigger boosts to a character's encumbrance cap. Also, have encumbrance affect every item, not just weapons. Make the penalties for going over encumbrance even more pronounced. Problems solved!

Demigod January 3 2010 11:41 PM EST

It only encourages selling out when you can run more efficiently naked.


I have a huge complaint about efficient naked strats that allow people to earn many millions with no use for the money at all -- aside from selling it. But that's another topic. The NW-PR link is just more incentive to run these already-problematic strats. That's one of the reasons why I do support high NW teams being able to topple low NW teams (yes, even with the advantage it gives USD players).

Wraithlin January 3 2010 11:43 PM EST

Even with the NW-PR link system we now have, the top guy in the game is there because of NW, so it can't be that broken.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] January 4 2010 3:34 AM EST

And the top players in score, MPR, and PR are there only because of NW? It's not their dedication, heavy involvement in the community, and tireless work in building and maintaining competitive strategies at all? Don't be silly. They're at the top because of the things I just mentioned, NW is just icing on the cake.

The NW-PR issue affects every person in this economy that wants to buy or upgrade a rare but decides they shouldn't because of the PR jump they take and the worry it hurts their bonuses. I can't be the only one that doesn't want to use their cash on armor upgrades because of it. People end up keeping their money by not reinvesting it and perhaps even just selling it for USD. NW-PR link doesn't break the game, but it sure does hurt it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 3:41 AM EST

You can upgrade your equipment as much as you like and not have it add any PR.

Stick it on a Base minion. It adds nothing, no matter the size.

You can get a Base Minion by using a RoE.

Personally, I think Score is currently misleading, to easily gamed, and shouldn't be inlcuded in the reward structure at all.

In addition to my post above, I think I should clarify that while fun and balance aren't mutually exclusive, 'fun' is subjective, while balance isn't (While someones interpretation of 'balance' can be, mechanically, it isn't).

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 3:42 AM EST

Also, have encumbrance affect every item, not just weapons.


It already does.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 3:45 AM EST

reduces the challenge bonus


Past the zero it's already at?


This.

Beating someone smaller than yourself (in 'Power', which *has* to remain a combination of XP size and NW) should in no way give you a 'Challenge' Bonus. And if you're at zero Challenge Bonus anyway, upping your PR means nothing.

It's no penalty, and no restriction.

The Top Charcater in the game sohuld be the absolutly least effected by the NW-PR link, as it has no practicle effect on them.

QBRanger January 4 2010 8:46 AM EST

So seriously,

Novice, what is your solution?

To have 1 Billion NW add nothing to your power rating. To have your character show less power than FTW with its 300M NW?

I believe it is a great thing that more powerful characters grow slower than less powerful ones. It is a way for them to be able to be caught other than a USD competition.

Again, as for the market, it is not too bad. High NW items sell for at least 50% NW.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 9:35 AM EST

Removal of the NW-PR link would make Dagobah have less 'power' than NWO.

Surely that fails the Poison test. ;)

AdminNightStrike January 4 2010 9:54 AM EST

Still waiting for an answer to my initial question...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 4 2010 2:06 PM EST

The overall issue with NW-PR is challenge bonus based Nightstrike, users who have more NW get lower rewards than a naked char of similar mpr. This discourages buying and upgrading items.

Specific to my situation is the amount of pr added by items keeping me from having the same abiliity to have any challenge bonus that Nem does. I feel that the current score system discourages long term players from attempting to beat everyone since they'll fall behind in the mpr race. Should we really be discouraging folks from trying to win?

AdminNightStrike January 4 2010 2:24 PM EST

If you are the top player, why would you have a challenge bonus?

QBRanger January 4 2010 2:25 PM EST

The overall issue with NW-PR is challenge bonus based Nightstrike, users who have more NW get lower rewards than a naked char of similar mpr. This discourages buying and upgrading items.

Actually that is not entirely true at the upper levels. With the 6 BA excemption, one can safely up their items as high as they want, without penalty.

There are plenty of highly upgraded items in the game. Whether weapons or other items such as your NSC or the high NW sets of AC.

At the lower levels, sure, upgrading items is a balance. Between winning and keeping a lower PR to increase your challenge bonus. But how is that a bad thing.
Specific to my situation is the amount of pr added by items keeping me from having the same abiliity to have any challenge bonus that Nem does. I feel that the current score system discourages long term players from attempting to beat everyone since they'll fall behind in the mpr race. Should we really be discouraging folks from trying to win?

Nem gets a challenge bonus chiefly due to using an overpowered, imbalanced item-the RBF. Look at whom he gets the bonus vs. Mikel and Rawr. His RBF is immune to Mikel's massive AMF and Rawr's GA/AS. Without such an abusive item, he would get hardly any challenge bonuses. The upgrading of items matters very little in that regard.

Again, it is a balancing act, upgrade to try to win, or do not in an attempt to get better rewards.

The system now is working as intended. The problems lie with specific items that allow one to fight higher than one should be able.

But then again, as stated before:
Removal of the NW-PR link would make Dagobah have less 'power' than NWO. Surely that fails the Poison test. ;)

QBRanger January 4 2010 2:29 PM EST

And if you really really wanted to slow down Nem's growth it is simple:

Unequip a few items, be able to be beaten by 1 or 2 people and have your score lower.

That causes a cascade which will have Mikel and Rawr's score lower, preventing Nem from having a challenge bonus.

But right now, your PR is so high and your score gravitates to it with each win it pulls everyones score higher.

Allowing those who use certain strategies/items to be able to best exploit them.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 2:39 PM EST

This discourages buying and upgrading items.


This is off set by being more 'powerful' and therefore able to beat larger opponents for better rewards.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 2:41 PM EST

using an overpowered, imbalanced item-the RBF


Here we go again!

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 4 2010 2:57 PM EST

That is only a third of the reason why I am able to get a challenge bonus. The RoBF alone wouldn't be near enough.

QBRanger January 4 2010 3:09 PM EST

But it certainly is a huge reason you are able to get a bonus, no?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 4 2010 3:14 PM EST

1/3 RoBF 1/3 is that I have a very small minion with which wall gear barely increases the PR and 1/3 that I have a huge HP and a base TSA.

Wraithlin January 4 2010 3:23 PM EST

Again with the "oh no someone has a counter to my strat"

RoBF beats massive AMF and GS/AS.

Massive damage beats RoBF.

Massive AMF and GS/AS beats Massive damage.

Get over it.

QBRanger January 4 2010 3:27 PM EST

Again with the "oh no someone has a counter to my strat"


No, pointing out why Nem gets a challenge bonus.

RoBF beats massive AMF and GS/AS.


Certainly as I pointed out. We agree 100% on this.

Massive damage beats RoBF.


Certainly we agree again. However, massive damage needs a massive weapon or a lot of MPR. Which equates to more PR, which equates to less or no challenge bonus. Which is the topic of this specific thread. The thread is not about counters, just about PR/NW and rewards.

Massive AMF and GS/AS beats Massive damage.


Possibly, however, with the NSC, a massive AMF does little vs high DD. With a high DM, one can beat GA/AS.

Get over it.


Such tude from such a new player, I love it!

TheHatchetman January 4 2010 3:30 PM EST

If you are the top player, why would you have a challenge bonus?


What about the setups that would look forward to getting to 60% just to stop the bleeding of the negative CB% they'd face in 7/20 just for equipping at/near encumbrance? Primarly anything with PTH, but just the same, most setups in the mid 6/20 to mid 7/20 range would be *improved* (in terms of both XP and cash rewards) by removing 80% of their gear and the 20% of their fightlist they can no longer kill. The only way I can imagine the purchase and upgrade of items being dicouraged anymore than under the current system would be if cash rewards from fights got cut in half or something silly like that.

QBRanger January 4 2010 3:34 PM EST

Hatch,

That is another subject of this topic.

And one I do agree with you about.

I hate the fact characters in the 7/20 zone can get negative bonuses.

I have no idea how it would effect the game, but how bad would it be if we added the excemption to the 7 as well as the 6 regeneration zone?

For the 8-10 zones, there are enough abandoned/forgotten characters to fight to prevent from getting a negative bonus, right?

Wraithlin January 4 2010 3:40 PM EST

You don't have to fight abandoned characters, there are plenty of active ones I can take down just fine.

TheHatchetman January 4 2010 3:45 PM EST

If you're anywhere in 8/20 and you're getting less than 80% CB, you're doing something very wrong

QBRanger January 4 2010 3:51 PM EST

So,

Would it make the game better to have both the 6 and 7 regeneration zones be exempt from a negative CB?

Kefeck [BlackSmith] January 4 2010 4:01 PM EST

honestly.. This is one of those instances where you chose to have high power in order to beat everyone, that was your choice you could have chosen a more versatile way to go. This game is all about strategy and kudo's to nem for being at the top and still finding a way to get a challenge bonus. There is nothing stopping you from dropping steeds for awhile and running an RoE to catch up in mpr (*points to AA, look at the ground he's made up). CB has always been a game where the top cycles, and i would hope it will stay that way.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 4 2010 4:06 PM EST

So as a game we want to discourage people from trying for the top.

Glad to hear it... My time at the top was loads of fun and I've been planning on giving Steeds back to AA for a while (it is his after all).

It just saddens me that we're ok with a system that makes winning a losing choice in the long term.

AdminNightStrike January 4 2010 4:06 PM EST

CB has always been a game where the top cycles


Actually, that's a fairly new concept to CB...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 4 2010 4:08 PM EST

Anyone want an albatross?

proton torpedo [80x14200] (+243) 251,387,425

QBRanger January 4 2010 4:12 PM EST

Novice,

I just do not get what you are looking for as an endpoint of this thread.

Is it to remove NW-PR? If so, then Dag would have less "power" than NWO. That certainly does not pass the smell test.

But to a few of the points you made in your last post:

So as a game we want to discourage people from trying for the top.

How does the current system do that? We have people trying for the top right now. LR, Z, among others. It may discourage people from spending tons of NW on a character, but overall that is a good thing, something designed to lessen, but not eliminate USD influence.

Glad to hear it... My time at the top was loads of fun and I've been planning on giving Steeds back to AA for a while (it is his after all).

I am sorry to hear that. You were a great top playa. But if NW-PR is causing you to do this, I would say that is an overreaction in the vein of Ranger.

It just saddens me that we're ok with a system that makes winning a losing choice in the long term.

How is it? I still do not understand. Is it not right to show a character's power as a combination of NW and MPR? And should a character with the top NW in the entire game, by a lot, have one of the most, if not the most power?

If a smaller character cannot "catch up", then that discourages people from trying far more than any NW/PR system we currently have.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 4 2010 5:39 PM EST

Why would I continue to attempt to be unbeatable when the steps required to accomplish that lower my ability to grow. Long term play (which is what I'm all about) dictates that anything I can do to grow faster should be my top priority, and it seems that I can't win and grow at max efficiency.

QBRanger January 4 2010 5:47 PM EST

How about the contrary discussion:

Why should you be unbeatable and grow at a faster rate?

Then nobody can catch you, MPR wise that is.

Get rid of that ELS, and lose to just 1 character. Your PR will drop and so will scores, with Nem not likely getting any bonus to catch you.

Again, it is your choice to beat everyone. And there should be some negatives to that if it requires such a beast of a weapon, no?

QBJohnnywas January 4 2010 5:53 PM EST

I feel like I've slipped through into some alternate universe.

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 4 2010 5:55 PM EST

JW: It's called '2010'.

QBJohnnywas January 4 2010 5:57 PM EST

lol. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 6:26 PM EST

However, massive damage needs a massive weapon or a lot of MPR. Which equates to more PR, which equates to less or no challenge bonus.


Nope. You can have a Massive Weapon, to do the Massive Damage required, without it adding a jot of PR.

Such is the awesomely broken Weapon X exemption. Leave your + at base, and ignore the RBF Evasion anyway.

Unreducable Base DEX chance to hit FTW!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 6:27 PM EST

Why would I continue to attempt to be unbeatable when the steps required to accomplish that lower my ability to grow.


Nov, as NS has been trying to hammer home, it doesn't.

You don't, or at least *shouldn't*, be getting any Challenge Bonus anyway.

So the amount of NW you go for is utterly moot for you.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 4 2010 6:38 PM EST

Someone is going to pass my MPR... I sure as hell am having something hinder my ability to grow. It may be the 10-20 BA I miss a week, I'm willing to admit I'm not perfect. My clans bonuses might not be up to snuff, I'm aware of the other factors. This isn't just about me and my attempting to avoid being passed by Nem.

Rewards for characters with NW are lower than folks without it, this is unfair, silly and foolish.

Reward people for buying items and upgrading them and you'll see CB change in a dramatic fashion in my opinion.

QBRanger January 4 2010 6:44 PM EST

Novice,

Again, it is your CHOICE to equip all that NW to beat everyone.

If you tried to grow faster, lose some NW and PR.

But you choose to beat everyone.

It seems you want to beat everyone AND be able to grow faster, get a challenge bonus.

That does not seem right to me.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 7:03 PM EST

"Rewards for characters with NW are lower than folks without it, this is unfair, silly and foolish.

Reward people for buying items and upgrading them and you'll see CB change in a dramatic fashion in my opinion."

But folk with that NW are more *powerful* than those with less.

They are getting an easier ride, as they have bigger, better items.

This *has* to be reflected in how 'challenging' it is to beat someone.

Can't you see that?

People *are* already rewarded for buying items, and upping them. They get to fight higher (and get better rewards becuase of it) than those who don't. Seriously.

AdminNightStrike January 4 2010 7:08 PM EST

Rewards for characters with NW are lower than folks without it, this is unfair, silly and foolish.



Are you talking about base rewards?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 4 2010 7:08 PM EST

If that were actually possible to fairly represent GL I'd be all for it, but it's not. It's so broken that fundamental aspects are exempted from it.

Base rewards solely on the score (and modify the score system to prevent the gaming currently going on) of the opponent and eliminate the comparison. I think that would go a long way towards making the system more fair.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 7:29 PM EST

Fairness to the system I'm all for mate. ;)

I think with the current way score is, it shouldn't form any part of the reward sructure.

But I recognise it's place in CB.

Score is in essence your strategy (simplified! :P). It's how well your specific combination of XP and NW work, and work versus your opponents.

But currently, NW-PR link has to stay. For the very same reasons we hashed out in my other thread. It's a balance check. And it's required.

(And you're still *not* being effected by it at all! ;P)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 4 2010 7:35 PM EST

The idea that lack of bonus isn't a penalty is laughable. If User A and User B fight the same people and User A gets better rewards... User B is experiencing a penalty.

NW-PR is an attempt to balance NW versus experience, I get that. I also believe that it's done far more harm that good. While I respect AvoidCXT at least as much as anyone else who ever played the game, and will admit that real men might fight naked I've always loved gearing up and taking a big ole sword into a fight. I'd like to see CB go back to rewarding us for our hard work rather than making us wish we'd never added all that plus to hit.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 7:42 PM EST

Fuzzy logic there mate. ;)

Zero is the baseline. Above that is a bonus, below a penalty.

You're not getting penalised. You rewards *aren't* dropping any more than they would if you removed all your NW.

Therefore, no penalty.

You just have no bonus. And you wouldn't have a bonus, no matter how much, or little, NW you used.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 7:44 PM EST

If User A and User B fight the same people and User A gets better rewards... User B is experiencing a penalty.


See, if you really want to run with this, you're being so heavily penalised by the N*B is unreal.

A guy with wthe N*B and a guy without it fight the same target. While they both might have 100% challenge bonuses, the guy without the N*B is experiencing a penalty...

;)

QBRanger January 4 2010 7:47 PM EST

In all reality you more than anyone are getting a bonus.

Imagine if there was no exemption for the 6 regeneration zone. You would have the most negative challenge bonus, most likely.

By having 0 CB, you are in reality, gaining the most by having such a high NW and PR.

If there is a problem with the rewards system, then make a thread about that.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 7:48 PM EST

I'd like to see CB go back to rewarding us for our hard work rather than making us wish we'd never added all that plus to hit.


Ah. Now that's a totally different issue.

PTH is kinda bad at the moment. You're much better off ignoring PTH and relying on your Base Chance to hit.

PTH is a wasted expense that's countered by Evasion or equal costing DBs, that also increases your PR.

While the utterly broken Weapon X doesn't. Just take all that ever increasing PTH cost, and wack it into linear X that doesn't increase your PR. They both do the same thing anyway, up your damage.

But, this is more about the broken-ness of Linear, non PR increasing, weapon X, and the unreducable nature of Base Chance to hit.

Not the NW-PR link.

Soxjr January 4 2010 7:48 PM EST

The more I read the more I am beginning to understand novices complaint. Yes I don't like USD in the game, but it is a part of it and I have accepted that I will never compete in the end game because I will never have the NW to compete. I lost that when I let a personal debt make me lose my only NW, but that is neither here nor there.

If I took the time to get the biggest weapon in the game and it helps me beat everyone in the game then it is up to the other people to find a way to beat me. Basically you are saying because novice took a different strategy to beat someone and his strategy cost more nw than someone elses that his rewards should be lower? To me that makes no sense what-so-ever. If we can both kill the same opponent the only difference in xp should be our clan bonus if we are both in the 6/20 range. That is it. Plain and simple. Yes if that means that novice ends up beating everyone then the only way to catch him would be to finaly beat him or to find different bonuses with clan or something else. The point of a fighting game is to win. Maybe if the rules of the game were different and USD wasn't involved from the start things would be different, but then someone that invested wisely and was a good merchant would end up in the same position. The point of the game again is to win. Novice is there, but yet is being penalized because his strategy to win took NW... I can completely see his gripe and it is valid. If i had taken his same path I would be ready to quit also. I hope you don't quit novice and maybe something is changed, because If both you and I kill the same opponent then the rewards should be the same. No matter what our strategy and NW was to do that.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 7:49 PM EST

Sox.

His rewards *aren't* lower.

They are *utterly* uneffected by his NW. How large, or small it is.

QBRanger January 4 2010 7:51 PM EST

But is not his character far more "powerful" due to all its NW.

And how is that fair to those that do not or cannot spend all that money.

A 200M NW ELS is powerful and PR reflects that. It is a choice one makes. Higher NW=Higher PR=ability to beat higher score people.
Plus or minus better rewards.

AdminTitan January 4 2010 7:52 PM EST

This doesn't have to be in the context of nov you know.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 7:52 PM EST

If both you and I kill the same opponent then the rewards should be the same. No matter what our strategy and NW was to do that.


That should *only* be the case if you have the same MPR and NW as each other.

The larger guy isn't competing as hard as the smaller, so the win isn't as 'challenging'.

And that's what the Challenge bonus is all about.

Building a good team that can fight higher than expected, and win 'challenging' fights.

Soxjr January 4 2010 7:53 PM EST

Then with that logic Ranger at a certain point we shouldn't even get cb$ as a reward because all we are needing it for is to sell for usd. If raising his weapons or armors nw raises his pr and lower the rewards compared to someone that doesn't spend the cb then really what are we doing here?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 7:54 PM EST

This doesn't have to be in the context of nov you know.


Of course not.

I made a generic thread aobut the NW-PR link. I linked it above.

But Nov made this thread about his character, and how the NW-PR link effects his growth and rewards.

Which it doesn't.

I'm more than happy to go back to a more generic thread, but then my old oone really answers everything about that.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 7:54 PM EST

If raising his weapons or armors nw raises his pr and lower the rewards compared to someone that doesn't spend the cb then really what are we doing here?


It doesn't effect his rewards in any way Sox...

QBRanger January 4 2010 7:56 PM EST

Titan,

This is in the context of anyone.

2 equal MPR characters with the same strategy.

1 with a 100M NW ELB the other with a 50M NW ELB.

The first will be able to fight higher opponents. And will get a higher base reward. The 2nd will fight lower score opponents and perhaps get a challenge bonus. But will beat less people.

It is a choice one makes.

Should character 1 get the same challenge bonus as the other with a large and more powerful weapon/item? I would certainly hope not.

If there is a problem with how rewards are calculated or with how PR is calculated, let us address that.

But NW-PR is needed for many reasons.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 4 2010 7:58 PM EST

If you haven't done thorough testing on the differences in rewards you can't tell what factors are helping and what are hindering. Just as a note for just about all of December I was not receiving a challenge bonus due to Mikel and Rawr draining their scores by stalemating 2 mil score chars.

QBRanger January 4 2010 8:01 PM EST

Then with that logic Ranger at a certain point we shouldn't even get cb$ as a reward because all we are needing it for is to sell for usd. If raising his weapons or armors nw raises his pr and lower the rewards compared to someone that doesn't spend the cb then really what are we doing here?


Again, It does not lower his rewards once you enter the 6 BA regeneration zone. It may prevent him from getting a POSITIVE challenge bonus but he cannot get lower rewards due to the exemption.

As I stated, novice, in this example, is likely getting the highest challenge bonus since it is capped at a minimum of zero and he is able to beat everyone but 1 person.

The lack of a bonus is not a penalty. He is not being penalized since his CB is bottom capped at zero. It is a choice he makes, equip all his items to beat everyone and get no CB, or lose a few and get a perhaps small one.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 8:01 PM EST

A generic answer.

Is the NW-PR link a punishment or balance?

Balance.

While increasing your NW increases your PR, and lowers rewards to the targets your *were* fighting, incresing your NW and therefore increasing your PR allows you to fight higher targets for better rewards.

And better Score.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 8:02 PM EST

Just as a note for just about all of December I was not receiving a challenge bonus due to Mikel and Rawr draining their scores by stalemating 2 mil score chars.


Just another glaring reason I'm staunch that Score should currently be removed from the reward structure.

QBRanger January 4 2010 8:02 PM EST

And:

There may come a point where it is impractical to upgrade ones items any more. And some of us may be near that point. And perhaps you are right in that regard.

That still does not change the fact that more NW should equal more PR.

AdminTitan January 4 2010 8:03 PM EST

What about strats that require far less money, but are still very effective?

QBRanger January 4 2010 8:04 PM EST

What about strats that require far less money, but are still very effective?

Great for them!

I am certain anyone could use those same strats and get a high CB. But some like to play tanks or mages and not a RoS character.

It is a choice, and I love choices.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 8:05 PM EST

It is a choice he makes


There should be no reason for CBs most 'powerful' Character, whoever that may be, to ever receive a 'Challenge' bonus versus any other target.



AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 8:07 PM EST

What about strats that require far less money, but are still very effective?


Isn't CB all about trying to build the team with the highest Score, with the lowest possible PR? ;)

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- January 4 2010 8:08 PM EST

>
what i'm adding though is band of wookies consistently gets 14%-15% clan fighting bonus where nov and others range between 14% down to 11% or even lower this can add up to a fair bit over time--ImmortalAA, January 3 6:06 PM EST


Word.

As for Nem growing faster than you... Well... a quick look at the Clan MVPs per month shows he is 8k score higher than you. That's a little more than 20 BA a week (I would go as far to assume you both fight 100% 6pt clan targets, as most of the top will fall into that category)

From my point of view all that aside. I see this like this:

Novice wants to beat everyone in the game.
Nem wants to grow faster than everyone in the game.

You can't always have your cake and eat it too.

While I completely tip my hat to you for your dedication and the amount of effort you've put into being the guy to beat, you have to acknowledge that the balances put in place are working as intended.

You're supposed to strive to be the best. You know what Nov? If there is ever a day you do beat 100% of CB... I'm sure you would get the credit deserved, people would talk about it a lot; and you'd feel awesome about it. But that can't last forever. You know it. I know it. Maybe you should (for right now) be focusing on growing as fast as possible and try to beat everyone again at a time when you can.

While it's true Nem is growing faster than you, you have to also acknowledge that while you're farming what.... 99.9% of the game, he at times burns his full BA on a 2 person list. Just to gain that small edge. It IS a small edge, combined like I said with the overall picture.

His growth speed is due to a combination of several factors, not just this one that you seem to be very upset about.

You argue that a game can't be fun unless you can strive to be the best (aka win the game). I will argue that a game can't be fun with one person being completely unbeatable by the entire population.

You want to win?

I say you already have.

QBRanger January 4 2010 8:10 PM EST

I will argue that a game can't be fun with one person being completely unbeatable by the entire population.

It was fun for me with Koy :)

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- January 4 2010 8:12 PM EST

Well naturally I was talking about the overall game. I'm sure it would have been fun to be the top, unbeatable for X time. I'm also sure everyone else was banging their heads against the wall, cursing you in their sleep about it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2010 8:13 PM EST

Fun is so subjective. ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 4 2010 8:20 PM EST

As Nem has mentioned, it's very likely that his ability to fight well and not miss BA are greater contributing factors is his gaining ground on me than the challenge bonuses he was getting.

None of that changes the fact CB is currently favoring people running low NW setups that can fight higher score chars. It's possible (others are sure, I'm still testing) that PR itself effects base rewards (a terrible situation as far as I'm concerned, I hate that PR drags score up and it also bringing up rewards is silly) if that's the case then fighting efficiently just got even more complicated... please can we just agree the rewards system needs simplification if nothing else?

QBRanger January 4 2010 10:00 PM EST

please can we just agree the rewards system needs simplification if nothing else?

100% agreed.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 4 2010 10:27 PM EST

i agree as well, as long as we get rid of score entirely! ; )

QBRanger January 4 2010 10:38 PM EST

Dude,

If we get rid of score entirely, then what will we have as an indicator of who is better than whom?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 4 2010 10:44 PM EST

i mean score in the reward calculations, that is the only calculation it figures in and i think pr to pr is better for rewards.

score can still exist, but it just won't affect rewards. ; )

AdminTitan January 5 2010 12:50 AM EST

"Isn't CB all about trying to build the team with the highest Score, with the lowest possible PR? ;)"

No no it's not. (Hope you're joking.)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 5 2010 12:53 AM EST

He's not Titan... That is certainly one goal certain people have gone for.

I think however we've lost site of what I considered to be the traditional goal, winning.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 5 2010 3:07 AM EST

After dropping my PR down to 7.2m I lost three people from my list (Mikel the second I unequipped my ELS, Dixie Cousins and Principle when I took off the NSC)

NW isn't a tenth as important as people assume, and the PR punishment we take for it isn't worth it. "Real Men Fight Naked"... indeed.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 5 2010 3:07 AM EST

Challenge bonus 1%

Woohoo!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 5 2010 3:16 AM EST

See, you're no longer the most powerful team in CB. ;)

And Titan, while I was being a bit flippant, there's an ounce of seriousness in that comment.

Assume you have twice the MPR and Twice the NW of anyone else in CB. Beating everyone should be a breeze then, right?

High Score, to show you're the best team out there. But then, that's never really in question. You're so much bigger than anyone else.

Utilising your strategy, to be able to get such a high Score, while remaining significantly *smaller* than your opponents, now that, shows your strategic prowess.

Winning big, as small as your can.

More noteworthy than just steamrolling everyone by being the biggest on the block, don't you think?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 5 2010 3:16 AM EST

See, you're no longer the most powerful team in CB. ;)


While still retaining the Top Score, so still remaining the 'best' team in CB. ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 5 2010 3:23 AM EST

Efficient fighting makes me sleepy...

I'm here to build items, I'm an item junkie, when I play DnD I make wizards angry because my nose is buried in the book looking for another item I can stuff into my inventory. I once created a character solely for the purpose of wielding the biggest hammer ever held by a mortal, I killed 17 Kobalds in a single round and was as happy as anyone has ever been. I loved CB initially because the item possibilities were essentially endless. Stripping down my char makes my inner child cry...

QBJohnnywas January 5 2010 3:25 AM EST

"Winning big, as small as your can."


That's pretty much been the thinking behind every strategy I've had. Even the current NW heavy one is still doing that...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 5 2010 3:31 AM EST

Stripping down my char makes my inner child cry...


Then don't!

As the most powerful character in CB, you get no penalty at all from loading up on the most amount of NW!

Go for it!

Get as much NW as you can, stack it up high!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 5 2010 8:33 AM EST

I loved CB initially because the item possibilities were essentially endless.


if we had a closed system with no item transfers that would be awesome and would actually mean something.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002xuv">NW-PR: Punishment or Balance for NW</a>