bug: ranged salvage yard problem (in General)


Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 9 2010 2:59 PM EDT

i have already sent ns a chatmail regarding this, but just wanted to start a thread to warn others and to hopefully get all the details in it as i am leaving town in a bit and will only be able to check in on my phone which isn't real good for chatmails or discussions.

earlier this week i had received an enforcer's crossbow as a drop. after not having any luck auctioning it for what i wanted, i decided just to try it out and converted my assassin's crossbow to the enforcer.

last night i put over 7m net worth into the x on the enforcer's, i am not sure exactly what i got it to or how much i put into it but it was over x2000 and likely under x2100.

today i was messing around and decided to see how my new levels worked back as an assassin's crossbow so i converted it back. after doing so i noticed that it had also converted it back to the original nw. the 7m plus just seems to have disappeared. i am not sure if this happens with the melee yard as well as i don't use melee weapons to test it.

NooneKnows April 9 2010 3:06 PM EDT

I thought it was determined that undoing a salvaged weapon made it revert back to its pre-salvage NW...?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 9 2010 3:10 PM EDT

if that is the case and it isn't buggy then i would highly suggest adding a message on the salvage yard pages warning of this or setting up some lock on the item to prevent you from upgrading it whilst in the window of time for reverting it back.

i don't think this would be an acceptable stupidity tax the way it is nor a money sink. ; )

Lochnivar April 9 2010 3:27 PM EDT

I seem to remember this having to do with forge-able vs non-forge-able items.... (elbow forging!)

Though I am quite surprised that there isn't a warning of this on the page where you reverse the process.

AdminNightStrike April 9 2010 3:29 PM EDT

This was all hashed out in the changelog and other threads. I can put more descriptive text on the salvage yard page if you like.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 9 2010 3:44 PM EDT

i would like very much for you to do that as it is frustrating as hell to lose 7m plus this way and i am not sure how many players will stick around with these kind of issues. i have been hooked for seven years and this is greatly testing my infinite patience.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 9 2010 3:59 PM EDT

locking the item from upgrades/downgrades while it is in the revert window would be the best solution though as people can miss warnings, changelogs, forum and chat discussions.

it would always be best to get rid of player traps as opposed to just warning the user of them and leaving them in the game to catch those who might not take the time to read or those who might not have that great of a grasp of the english language.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 9 2010 4:06 PM EDT

also, what i had read in the changelog made me think that the way it worked would only affect those trying to cheat the system. what i failed to grasp at that time was that it would also allow the system to cheat people who were just honestly trying to upgrade their items using the blacksmith.

Demigod April 9 2010 6:07 PM EDT

FYI, this is news to me as well.

Sickone April 9 2010 7:11 PM EDT

This was all hashed out in the changelog and other threads. I can put more descriptive text on the salvage yard page if you like.


Actually, I can't remember EVER seeing something like that mentioned anywhere.
The only warnings were about the "sacrificed" item, that the sacrificed item would simply be sacrificed regardless of NW, and that you can never get it back.
At no point do I remember it even hinting at the fact that the "main" item that's being transformed would ever lose any of its NW.

To clarify... let's say you go to the salvage yard and select...

Ranged Weapon to change:
An Elven Long Bow [6x9999] (+99) (huge NW)
Ranged Weapon to consume:
A Sling of Death [5x1] (+0) (negligible NW)

In the end, you will have "A Sling of Death [5x9999] (+99)" (huge NW) and no more ELB.
This much everybody can agree on, I suppose ?

WHAT I (AND MANY OTHERS) ASSUMED TO BE OBVIOUS:
If you ask for a "revert" in the next 7 days:
* the (hopefully base) SoD you sacrificed before is gone forever, regardless of its NW, but that's ok
* you get back "An Elven Long Bow [6x9999] (+99)", the same thing you asked to be morphed originally

WHAT YOU JUST SAID IS NORMAL TO HAPPEN:
You get back "An Elven Long Bow [6x1] (+0)", at a loss of huge NW in the process.

You surely can't possibly mean that ?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 9 2010 7:14 PM EDT

It was quite clear to me.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 9 2010 7:16 PM EDT

Accompanying this change, undo actions now restore the lesser NW of either the original item or the new item.


What's more clear than that?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 9 2010 7:16 PM EDT

Quote from changelog of introduction of Ranged Salvage yard.
**NOTE**
Accompanying this change, undo actions now restore the lesser NW of either the original item or the new item. Those of you that change your weapon to a different type, forge it up or disenchant it, then revert it... will be rather disappointed.

Sickone April 9 2010 7:16 PM EDT

Umm, sorry, it's a bit more complicated.
Let me rephrase.

Ranged Weapon to change:
An Elven Long Bow [6x9999] (+99) (huge NW)
Ranged Weapon to consume:
A Sling of Death [5x1] (+0) (negligible NW)

In the end, you will have "A Sling of Death [5x9999] (+99)" (huge NW) and no more ELB.
Now, you use the blacksmith to upgrade that to "A Sling of Death [5x12345] (+123)".
Then you choose to revert to an ELB.

WHAT WE EXPECT:
An Elven Long Bow [6x12345] (+123)

WHAT YOU SAY WE GET:
An Elven Long Bow [6x9999] (+99)

Sickone April 9 2010 7:17 PM EDT

Weird.
I must have missed that then.
Odd choice though.

Sickone April 9 2010 7:18 PM EDT

Why not simply have the "revert" pick up the current stats of the weapon as opposed to the lowest ones ?

Sickone April 9 2010 7:29 PM EDT

This makes as much sense as an option to destroy an object (instead of selling it to the store) or an option to destroy CB$ (instead of donating it to somebody).
Yeah, I get it that you need to make sure people don't borderline exploit//game the system, but simply wiping out BLACKSMITHED added NW just isn't fair no matter how you put it.

There is absolutely nothing against a "free revert" in the first 7 days working as a "free of sacrifice" (and also not granting you a re-revert) salvage option, maintaining the exact stats that are right now on the weapon.
If you disenchanted it meanwhile, you get a weapon that's smaller than the one you initially morphed.
If you forged or blacksmithed it in between, you get a weapon that's larger than the one you initially morphed.

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO BE 100% FAIR, you will transfer NW to NW instead of stats (so try to keep same +NW and same xNW), and ask for minimal extra CB$ in the change to compensate for possible NW differences because of different upgrade costs/curves.
That should prevent ANY form of abuse.

QBRanger April 9 2010 7:30 PM EDT

It is just a very stupid rule.

If people want to use a base anything to forge an elb, then let them do so. Then another elb to transfer it back, let them.

But a better question is "Why is an ELB unforgeable?"

What does this add to the game except take business from forgers.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 9 2010 7:31 PM EDT

I have an ELB (non-forgable) Ink to an axbow have it forged for a week and revert. 3-4 mil added at 70% plus a fee of 50-100k for the axbow (however much they are).

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 9 2010 7:35 PM EDT

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO BE 100% FAIR, you will transfer NW to NW instead of stats (so try to keep same +NW and same xNW), and ask for minimal extra CB$ in the change to compensate for possible NW differences because of different upgrade costs/curves.

That should prevent ANY form of abuse.

The salvage station does transfer NW to NW. A VB x1723 +173 becomes a MoD x1806 +173. NW is kept as close as possible.

QBRanger April 9 2010 8:24 PM EDT

What the SY does it save the + and use the rest of the NW left for the x.

Either way. What happened to Dude is utter garbage.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 9 2010 8:25 PM EDT

I'm sure if he asks nicely, he'll revert it.

kevlar April 10 2010 12:52 AM EDT

lol, just more wOw.

kevlar April 10 2010 1:27 AM EDT

Dudemus, I'll man up for the lack of leadership in the game. This is just insane.

kevlar (Pack Mule Service) 151.201.220.135 dudemus (just a jigoro) $10000000 -- what a joke 1:25 AM EDT

(the $ Dude used to up his weapon I believed is mostly what he just recently bought from me.)

Demigod April 10 2010 1:47 AM EDT

Awesome gesture, Kev. Hopefully it would have been (or will be) rectified...

kevlar April 10 2010 1:51 AM EDT

Demi, there is no hopefully... NS's first post should have indicated such a hope. I have lost all of that unfortunately, no matter how much I have admired, NS.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 April 10 2010 1:54 AM EDT

Guilt trips don't work particularly well in CB, unfortunately.

kevlar April 10 2010 1:55 AM EDT

Guilt trip? Seriously? hehe, Slayer come on. This is over the head of a guilt trip.

kevlar April 10 2010 2:19 AM EDT

and Slayer... forgive me for having higher expectations from this game. I will NEVER try to place a guilt trip on someone whom I respect. I may be disappointed and not agree with the path .. but would never place a guilt trip. Thanks for assuming I am at that lvl though. Much <3.

Wraithlin April 10 2010 4:58 AM EDT

I think everyone that posts here should get 1 mil for sympathy cash for dude's plight.

I stubbed my toe the other day, also that should get me another 1 mil from the admins.

Oh and I saw that AK lost a couple battles to someone, and I don't think that's fair, because "Admiral Killer" is a sweet name, so he should get at least 2 mil for that.

QBRanger April 10 2010 11:16 AM EDT

Kev,

You da man!!

If I had the money I would have given Dude the money he lost.

No, not as a guilt trip. Just as someone who wants to help out Dude.

A person who has done nothing in this game except try to support it through thick and thin. Through good times and bad. Someone who is the most neutral person in all of CB. Someone who just got hosed due to a changelog change from a few months ago.

However, as most people in CB who have been here a while, this is likely to be thought of as a "stupidity tax". At least that is what Jon would say.

And I fully understand NS's reluctance to give Dude his money back. That would, of course, open the flood gates for everyone. Just like Wraith stated.

But, as most people know, we do have extremely nice people in CB, who help others out. Just like Kevlar just did.

Not for any kudos, or any acknowledgment. Just because he is a nice person himself.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 10 2010 11:32 AM EDT

Does this happen for Tattoo's that are reinked, leveled for a while then reverted?

I'd hope not.

AdminTal Destra [Battle Royale] April 10 2010 11:48 AM EDT

no tats don't do this, and neither should the salvage yards

kevlar April 10 2010 11:51 AM EDT

Wraithlin, if you can link your toe incident to a flaw in the games recognition to avoid 'mistakes' that lead to an insane 'stupidity tax' then I'll send ya the 1mil. This thread, however, is not Obamacare, it is CB care, so I think you're best submitting those types of claims to the Government... and good luck >;]

TheHatchetman April 10 2010 1:38 PM EDT

If I had the money I would have given Dude the money he lost.


Done... Almost... He still has to actually sell the items to get the money (can't send any cash away as I still owe Sundari for transfers), but he should be able to get back what he spent.

I don't agree with looking at this as a lack of leadership. Upon reading the initial post in the thread I knew exactly what the problem was and what caused it. Means at least some of us knew about it. Perhaps people really should read the entirety of a changelog (or at least everything posted by NS or Jon) before using something new or that has been recently changed. But this was obviously an honest mistake on dude's part that he just happened to get bit for. Now the SY has clearer information, but as most who've been playing the game for awhile will probably know, it is not at all in the policy to reimburse/revert errors made by users.

kevlar April 10 2010 1:46 PM EDT

Not saying there is a complete lack of it, Hatch. But I feel with some things as of late, things could have been handled in a very different manner that would have been much more pro-active.

I am very biased with how I feel right now, and gave up sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for something that isn't going to happen.

In the first post by NS, he states maybe there needs to be a different warning or something added to prevent this kind of thing from happening. Right there, is reason enough to refund Dude's fees and correct the issue at hand. Sorry, I expect more, which is why I am in the position I am in now unfortunately. >:]

QBRanger April 10 2010 1:49 PM EDT

Hey,

Dude got reimbursed (from Kev) and hopefully there is a new warning on the Salvage Yard page.

So in the end things worked themselves out.

Hopefully that is enough to close this thread out and let everyone get back to blending!

kevlar April 10 2010 1:53 PM EDT

*slow clap*

haha luv it >:] *gunna have to watch cool runnings again sometime soon*

Godpanda April 10 2010 2:06 PM EDT

These threads get more and more frustrating. It's like players just.... Glass over the truth of what CB is.

CB has two developers. Jonathan hasn't logged on in over two weeks, and as NS has said over and over and OVER, he has a life. No matter how angry or frustrated you get, it won't change the fact that sometimes, you're just not right. And even when you are, sometimes there just isn't time.

And the best part is, you spend SO much of the time arguing about the changes (or lack of them) that when NS logs on to actually fix things, he has to wade through 30 posts of people complaining to read the actual posts of finding issues.

Now, to be fair, I'm not saying all threads are like this or even that complaining is bad. It just needs to be done on different threads. And that people need to really REMEMBER that CB doesn't have a WoW like Dev team. They don't even have a Runescape or Darkthrone like dev team. CB has two people who have other jobs doing their best.

TheHatchetman April 10 2010 2:07 PM EDT

Now kev got reimbursed (from Ranger). Problem resolved!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 11 2010 8:30 PM EDT

i have been away for the weekend, i took my daughter around the ut campus in austin to see if she likes it there and partied with some old friends. so first, let me apologize for my absence.

for everyone who sent money or items, that really wasn't necessary but i do appreciate it greatly! this is what is great about cb, in one post we can have people deriding me for my stupidity while other users reimburse me, now if we can just keep them from leaving the game.

i see that some people linked an addition to the page that warns users against this occurrence and that is what i wanted, well partly anyway as i think locking the item for upgrades is still the best way of fixing this. thanks for the warning at least though, that is better than a player trap without a warning.

for those who did copy the new warning, does it show up on the original page as well as the revert page? i have only done this once and cannot actually remember if those two pages are the same or separate so this question may not even matter, i just want to verify that people see it when the go to salvage an item as well as revert it.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 11 2010 8:49 PM EDT

They're the same page, I just double checked.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 11 2010 8:53 PM EDT

What I would like is if it popped up a little are you sure window, that said, so you want to change MoD[75x2500](+50) into ELS[80x10](+1). That way people really know what they're getting.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] April 11 2010 8:54 PM EDT

That would indeed be nice titan.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 11 2010 9:31 PM EDT

i usually despise confirmation pop-ups but i do agree that in the case i think one is necessary.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 11 2010 9:48 PM EDT

Note: Reverted weapons will be of the lesser of the current or the original NW. Therefore, users trying to abuse the system with disenchanting or upgrading prior to reverting the change will be disappointed.

upon further reading i would also suggest modifying the last sentence as it makes it sound like only those trying to abuse the system will be affected when in fact it also punishes people who are just updating an item using the blacksmith as normal.

in my situation i was just updating my crossbow. i was only changing from an assassin to an enforcer to try out the differences because i got an enforcer drop. i assume they have the same exact net worth and was not try to abuse anything in any manner.

AdminJonathan April 11 2010 10:33 PM EDT

I've credited dudemus 7M.

(While we normally don't like to manually intervene when someone doesn't understand the consequences of his actions, I think in this case the fault was primarily ours for not making them sufficiently clear on the SY page. So I'm not too worried about setting a bad--for the admins--precedent. :)

Demigod April 11 2010 10:34 PM EDT

Thanks, Jon. (and dudemus, are you profiting?)

Zenai April 11 2010 10:35 PM EDT

Awesomeness!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 11 2010 10:40 PM EDT

woot, thank you jon! i will be sending some cash back to kevlar though! ; )

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] April 11 2010 11:04 PM EDT

Is that you over there Demi, I can't see you b/c of all this gushy lovey love crap going on XD, lol. Thanks again Jon.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 12 2010 11:10 AM EDT

Awesome resolution all round! :D

QBRanger April 12 2010 1:40 PM EDT

I've credited dudemus 7M.


Hell hath frozen over :)

Lochnivar April 12 2010 2:07 PM EDT

Hell hath frozen over :)


No, it hasn't. The gorgeous girl from the coffee shop still won't go out with me.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 12 2010 2:45 PM EDT

No, it hasn't. The gorgeous girl from the coffee shop still won't go out with me.


methinks that has less to do with the state of hell and more to do with unrealistic expectations due to a fear of commitment.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00328a">bug: ranged salvage yard problem</a>