Suggestion: Closed Debate Forums (in General)


Zenai May 1 2010 12:04 PM EDT

The Other Day GL and I were locked in a Good Clean Debate. Now it did stray a bit from what it started off as but the content still held to the original basis of the Debate albeit one of the base elements of it.

Now neither of us took anything said by the other party as personal or a shot, we both took the comments in stride and answered straightforwardly with no malice or anger involved. Which made both of us wonder just why the Thread was Closed. We agreed that it should continue and tried again the subsequent thread was also closed. Both of us were once again perplexed as to why it was closed since there were no potshots against either of us to each other.


After a bit of thought we both decided that it was not either of us but rather the other people in the Thread(s) that had made it an undesirable subject due to personal shots or offenses taken. We both agreed that we were enjoying the Debate and that the Content should indeed be in the Public eye.

After some Brainstorming we thought of something Simple:

Open and Closed Debates.

Open Debates are just like what we have now so no changes there.

Closed Debates however is a Totally Different Story. Two or More Parties can Start a Debate and Close it to outside parties from bringing in things that either do not belong or distracting from the Subject matter(IE: Trolling, Distracting or Ruining the Thread by getting it Closed). Of course we thought of Allowing other Parties to Join and being able to boot Parties as well. This would be difficult without a Moderator so a 3rd Unbiased Party should be involved.

Overall this is just something we were talking about and thought that maybe this could be a good thing for those that Enjoy a Debate but do not like the myriad of Distractions that come from Open Debates and not be subjected to CMs only.


Just a Few thoughts and Neither of us know if it is doable but thought it would be a good thing to bring to the Table.

Flamey May 1 2010 12:16 PM EDT

You'd break the forums.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 1 2010 12:17 PM EDT

We have CMs already.

Zenai May 1 2010 12:20 PM EDT

We both agreed that we were enjoying the Debate and that the Content should indeed be in the Public eye.

Overall this is just something we were talking about and thought that maybe this could be a good thing for those that Enjoy a Debate but do not like the myriad of Distractions that come from Open Debates and not be subjected to CMs only.

You know that Attention to Detail is a good thing right?

QBRanger May 1 2010 12:21 PM EDT

Bad idea as Titan and Flamey already stated.

Zenai May 1 2010 12:24 PM EDT

Ok Explain Why?


Thing that get's me more often that not is that people only skim over things or just totally dismiss it right from the beginning. No nothing as to what their thoughts on it are on it just a Plain out "No."

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 1 2010 12:29 PM EDT

I was thinking more akin to a private chat room, but truth be told not sure how it would work in the forums.

Flamey May 1 2010 12:29 PM EDT

Specific permissions for people in threads would break the forums.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 1 2010 12:31 PM EDT

CMs already server this purpose very well. There is no need to create this.

Zenai May 1 2010 12:32 PM EDT

Flamey: And if there was a way to keep Forums from Breaking or if there is an Alternate Idea as a workaround?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 1 2010 12:32 PM EDT

Not really. We already have it for FS/WTB. Only the topic creator can post in the thread.

This would just be an extension of that, if there could be some way to toggle who else would be allowed to post in a thread.

Could be applied to only one subforum (debates), just like FS/WTB has it's own rules.

But, again, I've no idea if/how such a toggle would work. ;)

Zenai May 1 2010 12:33 PM EDT

Titan: CMs are not in the Public Eye hence why I brought this up in the first place.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 1 2010 12:35 PM EDT

If they aren't meant to be in the public eye, then the public should be allowed to debate. This would just lead to people creating new threads to get involved in the debate.

Zenai May 1 2010 12:39 PM EDT

After a bit of thought we both decided that it was not either of us but rather the other people in the Thread(s) that had made it an undesirable subject due to personal shots or offenses taken. We both agreed that we were enjoying the Debate and that the Content should indeed be in the Public eye.


This is why Titan, People should be able to Debate on Sensitive Subject Matter without Multiple Distractions from Outside parties that is relevant to all of CB. Now if others wanted to Make an Open Debate Forum on the Subject Matter or others Wanted to have a Closed Debate then why not? Having more interaction on CB is a good thing anyway. Besides if you just didn't like all of the Debate Threads you could easily Filter them out.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 1 2010 12:42 PM EDT

I'll attempt to enforce any closed debates (should be stated in the title and thread who participants are)

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 1 2010 12:50 PM EDT

If it's pertinent to CB, all should be allowed to debate it. If it's not, then take it to CMs. If you don't want others involved, take it to CMs. That is quite simple and will save a lot of hassle for NS and other moderators.

Lochnivar May 1 2010 12:58 PM EDT

Actually nov makes a good suggestion.... the original poster can list eligible participants and topic and it isn't that hard for a quick skim and removal of improper posts....(I'd be happy to help with this too)

the people in the debate may have to exercise some self control and ignore responses for a short time, but it's workable.

Zenai May 1 2010 12:59 PM EDT

Close it to outside parties from bringing in things that either do not belong or distracting from the Subject matter(IE: Trolling, Distracting or Ruining the Thread by getting it Closed).


Once again this is why Titan. Some people can't seem to contain themselves or cause things to Degrade terribly from it's starting point. They take so much offense where none was meant or directed at just them and get the Thread Closed.

IE a Good Clean Debate without OUTSIDE INFLUENCES. This is the Purpose of the Idea Titan. Also why it is not an Option for CMs which you repetitively state is the ONLY other Option. If done right it will not BREAK Forums and will keep things in perspective for each Debating Opponent. Teams of Debaters could very well be applied(as is an option) and of course other Threads could be made in Response. Why not have it to where it can be Closely Moderated without Admins having to get involved to stop the above from happening on a regular basis?

Lochnivar May 1 2010 1:01 PM EDT

or we could just follow these rules:
Rules:

(1) Insults are NOT allowed; however, analogies/allusions/examples etc. not intended to ridicule others but for illustrating legitimate points are fine. Specifics:

* No forum member ad hominem (attacks on the poster) posts.
* Do not label others (religious, political labels being the primary example) in your posts.
* While criticism of a post is allowed, do not solely post disparaging remarks about an argument. Pointing out "red herring, strawman" is fine; "your argument sucks" is not.

(2) You may not imitate the speech/ behavior of a poster in this forum in any way (which would be clearly assaulting that member through the means of irony) as this will be considered a forum member ad hominem post.

(3) You should state clearly what your purpose of opening the thread is for, and provide enough information about the topic to hold a reasonable discussion.

(4) A discussion thread is to be left open-ended. This means it will remain open for an indefinite period of time. This is different from debate, where two sides hold logical arguments against one another in an effort to defeat the other side and come to a conclusion; debates may also be timed.

(5) You must provide your opinion/views in a debate, unlike a discussion where you may simply provide relevant information or ask questions.

(6) Debate threads only: Any member of the forum may post, and as they post they take sides with the content or opinion of their first post, and may not switch sides during the debate.

(7) You may not make two posts consecutively. Please wait for at least another person to post before you make another post. The exception here is a clarification on your previous post, should you forget information; however, it is highly suggested that you thoroughly check your post before submitting it. You may not make a clarifying post if someone else has made a post after the one you would like to clarify.

(8) Do not use all upper case text. We expect to see literate, intelligent discussion here; that means you should generally follow the rules of grammar.

(9) Stay on topic.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 1 2010 1:02 PM EDT

I'm not saying it's impossible, hell I doubt it would be even that hard to control. I'm saying the idea of it is bad. Let me give you an example. So, Zen and I want to make a private debate on this topic and we decide to allow Flamey in too. So, we're debating along and later in the day Dude gets on and he wants to get involved. He asks me if he can join in and I say no. He goes and creates another debate thread about the same topic this time with Sickone. Well now Ranger and Sut want to get involved, but they have to create their own thread too, and when Ranger doesn't let LB into it, he'll create his own. Before you know, where going to have countless debate threads everywhere, on things that if you say are "pertinent to CB" should be allowed to be discussed by everyone as a whole. Singling people out to exclude from debate is a bad idea for many reasons.

Wraithlin May 1 2010 1:04 PM EDT

How about a forum where the creator is also a moderator for that thread.

Then you can just remove any posts that are deemed off topic.

Ideally you are making a closed debate because you want to have a debate, not just remove all arguments against your case so that shouldn't be a problem.

If the creator/moderator doesn't care if it derails then he doesn't have to remove any posts, or they can keep it strictly on topic.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 1 2010 1:05 PM EDT

Forum mods are the mods for a reason, we don't need to give just anyone the ability to edit posts or remove them.

Zenai May 1 2010 1:06 PM EDT

Some people can't seem to contain themselves or cause things to Degrade terribly from it's starting point. They take so much offense where none was meant or directed at just them and get the Thread Closed.


That's why Loch too many do not follow the Rules or do not care. This would solve it right off the bat without muss or fuss or waiting for someone to Skim it. It's a good idea but honestly it's only a partial answer what about when there is no one around like it currently is with Debates. The only time the Admins get involved is to Close the Thread. In some cases yes I see the necessity of it and I am not arguing that but for those that are trying to have a good clean Debate without X amount of other Elements coming about then what is their Alternative? CMs right? With Subject Matter that should be Debated in the Public Eye. I just do not see that working to benefit CB.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 1 2010 1:10 PM EDT

How about NS just appoints some mods who actually use the forms? That sounds like a much simpler solution without creating the problems I have shown.

Zenai May 1 2010 1:14 PM EDT

This would solve it right off the bat without muss or fuss or waiting for someone to Skim it.

This would be difficult without a Moderator so a 3rd Unbiased Party should be involved.

The Idea was already Mentioned in the First post to Amalgamate such a thing. One Specifically for Each Thread Appointed by Said Parties and only for that thread. So no Need for X amount of Extra Forum Mods when it can just be for that Specific Thread and Attention would be Assured.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 1 2010 1:23 PM EDT

Zen, if you can appoint a mod, what's the point of having a mod. Mods are mods for reason, they should be chosen by NS or Jon, not the creator of the thread.

Zenai May 1 2010 1:29 PM EDT

Zen, if you can appoint a mod, what's the point of having a mod. Mods are mods for reason, they should be chosen by NS or Jon, not the creator of the thread.

If it is set up as an Option in the Creation of the Thread in the First place then why have 50 Mods and wait for them to Act when they have the time? You could have someone right there for the Purpose of Allowing someone into or escorting someone out of the Thread right then and there and no need to have NS/Jon or any other Admin to bother with it.

Being able to Mod for only a Specific thread when appointed by the Debating Parties is not a Bad thing and would only give them control of THAT SPECIFIC THREAD. IE it would alleviate the need for 50 Mods and keep a Debate Thread Clean and Controlled.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 1 2010 1:31 PM EDT

Really, what if I created this thread and just deleted all your posts?

Zenai May 1 2010 1:35 PM EDT

By a 3rd Party that Both Debating Parties Agreed upon Titan. I would hope that the Debating Parties were Responsible enough to pick someone with an ounce of Respect no?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 1 2010 1:36 PM EDT

Well, maybe it's just me, but I just NS's decisions better than some of the people who create threads on CB. But, this still doesn't solve the problem of excluding others from debates and causing multiple debate threads which will clog up forums.

Zenai May 1 2010 1:38 PM EDT

They could easily be Filtered Titan. And of Course if the Thread was that bad I know for a Fact that someone would point it out and an Admin would close it and may even Fine or take greater Measures to ensure it was not abused futher. So honestly I see no Reason it couldn't at least be tried out.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 1 2010 1:40 PM EDT

I don't mean that there will be bad threads, but simply countless threads on the same topic, and I'm sure you don't think certain people should be allowed to debate things and not others.

Wraithlin May 1 2010 1:42 PM EDT

If it is a debate thread, and the owner of the thread deletes everything that is a contradiction to his arguement, then nobody will post in his debate and the thread will die, no need to worry about that.

If it is a debate thread and he removes all the off topic stuff and the people actually debating only have to filter though responses for how to respond next and they don't have to sift through all the extra stuff people add then the debates will flourish instead of die in a hail of insults.

There is no down side to having the thread creator also be the moderator for a debate thread. NS or whoever is NOT a more capable or trustworthy person that the person who created the debate thread.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 1 2010 1:44 PM EDT

Fine, I'm just going to take the old wise men's way out and say... We will see.

Cube May 1 2010 1:45 PM EDT

There are probably plenty of external platforms you can find if you want to have a private debate. While that may not be the most ideal solution for you, I don't see how private debates would add to CB significantly especially not enough to warrant time to be spent developing them.

As far as I'm concerned if you post on the CB forums, it should be a discussion with the CB community.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 1 2010 1:46 PM EDT

I wholeheartedly agree Cube.

Wraithlin May 1 2010 1:50 PM EDT

I agree too.

But we want some method of having a debate within the CB community that doesn't derail.

Zenai May 1 2010 1:50 PM EDT

Close it to outside parties from bringing in things that either do not belong or distracting from the Subject matter(IE: Trolling, Distracting or Ruining the Thread by getting it Closed).


If they fall into this Category then they most certainly should be not be allowed to Debate. Don't get me Wrong I do believe in Freedom of Speech but some people do not understand that there is a time and place for things. This is one of the Reasons why there are Open and Closed Debates in almost everything as it is in RL. I see no reason for CB to not reflect this aspect as well if they are going to have a Debates forum period.


As far as Countless threads I doubt that as I'm sure Someone would Start an Open Debate on the Subject if they really wanted to do so.

AdminNightStrike May 30 2010 4:22 PM EDT

If you want a good closed debate, then set one up as per the rules at the top of the forum. There are several debate moderators around.
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