flag for former multis? (in General)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 15 2010 10:36 PM EDT

i was thinking earlier that it is odd that we can flag credit risks, but someone who has cheated in the game gets reset but no flag. most of us will remember who it was, but user names can be changed making it harder for new players to know who these people are.

i am not saying that i support flagging former cheaters, but i was wondering what the rest of you thought regarding this. have they paid for their crime and are now "rehabilitated"? do you assume that if someone cheats in one aspect that they would likely cheat in others?

for this discussion let's focus on veteran characters who knowingly strayed rather than new users who just get confused.

Zippy May 15 2010 10:41 PM EDT

I think an ip address is rather like a flag. The admins can look up any and all ip addresses used and check it against characters. Not sure if this is the answer you were looking for.

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] May 15 2010 10:42 PM EDT

Don't think its necessary. If they stay then they are probably going to make things right in other areas. This is probably coming up from Kefeck owing me 30+ mill and flagging him would not help either of us and would just make both our lives miserable. We have already worked out a deal and I have full faith that he will repay; he has in the past.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 15 2010 10:51 PM EDT

many in the community though supported the flag for nub's in the fs/wtb forums. it seems a little backwards that we support one and not the other.

also, even though it might hurt someone who has money loaned to an outed multi there are probably many others who would appreciate knowing that upfront before dealing with them.

BootyGod May 15 2010 10:53 PM EDT

I have to say, as conflicted as I am in some ways about multis, this one is rather clear to me. They should be flagged.

It's not even a punishment. It's simple reality. They did business using an account they knew could be in danger of being banned/reset. So they were literally risking anyone else's goods that they held possession of.

There is RISK. In a player who has already proven that they don't take the in game stuff seriously... Well, do you really want to do business with them?

The only thing I would say is that it shouldn't be applied to anyone who's done it before whenever it's enacted. While I don't feel they're any more honest than people who do it in the future, I do feel that it's unfair to change the consequences of an action on the fly.

Zippy May 15 2010 11:14 PM EDT

Oh now I see what you meant. Well sure a multi getting a ton of money loaned to them or items should be able to be recognized somehow.

Base items could also be returned to original owners upon reset not sure how hard that is?

The flag would still be hard though, someone could still create an all new account and would then be unflagged? Have to be based on an ip for sure.

AdminNightStrike May 15 2010 11:51 PM EDT

many in the community though supported the flag for nub's in the fs/wtb forums. it seems a little backwards that we support one and not the other.

Maybe you misunderstand the purpose of that flag.

Demigod May 15 2010 11:55 PM EDT

While the notion makes sense, flags may just embolden witch hunts. It's ultimately up to the admins to seek out multis. Credit, on the other hand, is a risk that's measured purely by the player market.

In other words, no to multi flags.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 16 2010 12:52 AM EDT

They did business using an account they knew could be in danger of being banned/reset. So they were literally risking anyone else's goods that they held possession of.

What if they had the intention of paying off with their other account when and if it happened?

QBOddBird May 16 2010 1:29 AM EDT

What if they had the intention of paying off with their other account when and if it happened?

/implying they knew one would be reset instead of both being permabanned from the game, which is a viable alternative

AdminG Beee May 16 2010 2:32 AM EDT

Not fair.

You commit the crime and serve the punishment in this instance without the need for a public flag to be added.

There's vets (who've posted on this thread) that join CB and create a multiple account more out of ignorance than any desire to cheat. If we were to flag an account as being a previous multi would we flag them all, or just some? Who would decide? Would we flag only for a period of time, or forever?

No, I don't think we should flag users who have mulit'd in the past. The admins can easily tell who has been a multi, there's no need to publicise it in such a manner.

A Lesser AR of 15 [Red Permanent Assurance] May 16 2010 3:08 AM EDT

Instead of flagging, make a wiki page listing as many multis as can be found in PR posts. Perhaps the admins could help with achieve tracking as not all are posted.

AdminNightStrike May 16 2010 3:26 AM EDT

We really don't need a bunch of scarlet letters, regardless of the form they take.

Lochnivar May 16 2010 3:31 AM EDT

bah... scarlet letters...

I believe here in CB we brand the abhorrent outcasts a green 'A' instead!

.... I kid, I kid....

But yeah.... I'm not down with branding... incidentally that perspective ended my last relationship...

I've said too much.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 16 2010 10:19 AM EDT

Maybe you misunderstand the purpose of that flag.

i don't think that i do. many of us at the time suggested putting a nub tag on their user name if it was truly meant in a positive manner. that way we could help them out more readily in all forums.

the fact that it shows up the way it does and only in the one forum pretty much limits it to transactions only.

the branding and the scarlet letters are already here with credit risk flags and nub brands.

AdminNightStrike May 16 2010 10:56 AM EDT

Your opinion on what I meant has little bearing on what I actually did mean.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 16 2010 11:01 AM EDT

excellent point ns, it leads right into your intention being just as susceptible to misinterpretation. if one method is less easily misinterpreted (which is exactly what many of us said when this was implemented), perhaps that would be the better method?

i think my intention for creating this thread is apparent now, could we possibly reexamine the nub flag as a nub tag? if that is unclear to anyone, it would show up as the current admin or qb tags do.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 16 2010 11:16 AM EDT

as an alternate solution that might take less implementation time, could we have the flag follow them to other forums.

if it can help them in fs/wtb, why wouldn't it be helpful everywhere? furthermore, if it is in all forums it might seem less of an attack on nub sellouts only?

Solare May 16 2010 2:58 PM EDT

I don't believe in flags. Reminds me of 'The Scarlet Letter.' Branding people is never a good solution.

QBRanger May 16 2010 5:02 PM EDT

Branding people is never a good solution.
Branding people that willfully broke the rules, and a key one at that, is never a bad thing.

TheHatchetman May 16 2010 5:34 PM EDT

if it can help them in fs/wtb, why wouldn't it be helpful everywhere?

How *would* it be helpful elsewhere? It quite simply IS a preventative measure on NUB sellouts on one hand, and on the other, it encouragement to help out via the purchas and sale of items... I don't forsee any tag helping or hurting anyone in General/OT/Contests/etc...

three4thsforsaken May 16 2010 5:36 PM EDT

Several years ago, I made a multi. It wasn't because I was trying to abuse the system but rather because I didn't read the rules. Wasn't involved in the community. I was like in middle school. Anyways, after the reset, I was bored and quit the game.

Sure enough my account was deleted from lack of use. Years later I returned to the game, older, more mature and much more aware of game policy.

Should I be branded for that? I mean I did break the rules at one time, but it was out of ignorance. People make their mistake but in the end they pay for it, the admin's don't give them an IP ban because they want them to continue playing.

This isn't anything like the NUB flag because the NUB flag protects people from people who might leave. A multi ban would be some sort of protection for people to want to stay.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 16 2010 5:40 PM EDT

good question hatch! i think that sometimes we critique ideas and suggestions very harshly (fors anyone?) and i also believe that some of us might be more patient in explaining to new users why their suggestion is a fors.

personally i would take more time explaining things to a new user than someone who has been here longer than six months and have lost the tag. i would also assume they know not of the wiki and link to it, where i probably wouldn't if they had been here longer than six months.

if someone post questions in the tournament thread and i see that they are new, i might send them some links or help them out more.

i also think that it would help admins if people happen to break the pg rule or others to know that it is likely a first offense.

if i thought longer than the three minutes it has taken me to type this i could likely come up with more but hopefully you will see the benefits already.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 16 2010 5:51 PM EDT

how does the nub flag protect people from people who might leave exactly?

why is it okay to brand one form of cheating (credit risk) who have been reset and paid their fine but not another (multi) because he has paid his fine?

why is it okay to brand all nubs, even those who haven't done anything wrong to keep those who might from having a market?

i am pretty much playing the devil's advocate now as i have already made my point with this thread however it does seem that there is a bit of hypocrisy going on with the community. i think i know why as well. with nubs, we don't really know them yet and thus care little about how they feel regarding things. with someone whom we like, even when they cheat or bot as we saw in times past, we give them some slack because of their status in the community.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 16 2010 5:52 PM EDT

for this discussion let's focus on veteran characters who knowingly strayed rather than new users who just get confused.

that was in the first post though for any that missed it! ; )

three4thsforsaken May 16 2010 5:56 PM EDT

I think a big point is that the NUB flag is designed to eventually disappear. The multi flag not so much.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 16 2010 5:58 PM EDT

does the credit risk flag disappear?

TheHatchetman May 16 2010 6:05 PM EDT

i believe so, once debts have been repaid...

AdminG Beee May 16 2010 6:14 PM EDT

Credit flag can only be lifted manually by an admin.

TheHatchetman May 16 2010 6:17 PM EDT

but the question at hand was whether or not they are meant to be. And I'm assuming that when a credit risk has cleared their credit, admins are more than happy to do so?

QBRanger May 16 2010 6:19 PM EDT

There is a difference between a new player accidentally making a multi and an experienced player running multiple accounts.

I would have thought it was quite obvious, but yet I am disappointed.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] May 16 2010 7:57 PM EDT

Feel free to ignore my post, since it comes from someone who once had a multi. However, with the option for admins to put Credit Risk warnings on accounts, it seems redundant to put multi-warnings on them as well. If someone multi's and someone loses assets because of them, label them a Credit Risk. If someone multis and no one is harmed, why do they need a warning label?

And again, feel free to ignore the words of this old cheater. However, I have been honest and have not once ever ripped anyone off in the two years since.

BootyGod May 16 2010 11:43 PM EDT

Oh, now, come on.

When did it become a punishment to simply lose the spoils of cheating? If you rob someone, the cops don't just take the money back and say, "There. You've lost your rewards for breaking the law. Go about your way."

Scarlet letters aren't good things, but then they aren't meant to be. The reality here is that someone has proven themselves to be a credit risk. Pretending otherwise is just silly. I mean, if they care so little about their own in game possessions, why would they care more about YOUR'S? Who would loan money, or start a payplan who doesn't value their time on this game at least as much as you do?

I'm not trying to start a lobby to brand every cheater in CB forever. My only goal here is to make sure that this discussion is being honest and as low in hypocricy as possible.

Multis are cheating. Pure and simple. And in the case of people doing it for extended periods of time, it's deliberate cheating.

I don't even like the multi rule, honestly. But, as many of pointed out, where is the reward for NOT? A long, brutal grind to the upper-middle of the game where there is no way to do more than the person next to you (Unless you spend USD) and there is so little penalty for breaking the rules?

"Oh, no, they caught me and my 6 multis. Oh well. Time to start again!"? And you say flagging them as a credit risk is too much? Unfair? That they've served their punishment? Honestly, at this point, either ban their IP or just them do it.

Yeah, I know. Bit over-dramatic. But not untrue.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- May 17 2010 4:03 AM EDT

I would like to see something like this implemented. I think being "hush hush" about it is rather immature if anything. Since when did we care so much about people who cheat? Afraid they might leave or cheat more to avoid the tag? Good, Ip ban them and good riddance.

It's one thing for an ignorant nub, and another for a seasoned vet, and being an "admin" should mean that one can use enough common sense // discretion to decide who gets the brand, and who gets pointed to the 'Help!' page.

Don't like it?

Don't cheat.

My name's Jiraiya, and I play clean. I support this idea because I think this is almost worse than a nub-sellout. I mean people that cheat knowingly risk EVERYTHING. Maybe Kefeck has every intention to pay back elite and it's not that big of a deal, but not every player is like kefeck, and to assume they will all be is just ignorant.

What happens if someone is HUNDREDS of millions of CBD in debt and this happens? Kiss that good buy, even 50-100m is very significant.

It could be anyone, If for example I was running multiple accounts, and banned, how many people would lose out on that? I don't consider myself a credit risk, but I'm over 300 USD in debt to Corath that I'm still paying off, I owe Nem like 11m, I owe Mess like 2m, I owe Solare like 30m... Point is, ANYONE could at ANYTIME be reset with ANY debts, and decide it's easier to just not play and disappear into cyberspace at any given time and POOF, sucks to be you.

What are you going to do? Hire a lawyer? Hunt them down? No, you're going to eat it and move on.

Yeah, I would say known cheaters are a pretty significant credit risk. More even than a NUB.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- May 17 2010 4:05 AM EDT

Tired... : Bye**

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 17 2010 4:19 AM EDT

Do people not understand how easy it is to change your IP?

Sickone May 17 2010 5:47 AM EDT

Do people not understand how easy it is to change your IP?
Mine (and everybody else's in the country using the same ISP, and it's one of the largest ISPs in the country) changes every time I reboot my machine :)
Granted, there are ranges assigned to each individual city, but still, anybody in my city could theoretically show up tomorrow with the IP I had yesterday or vice-versa... the only thing preventing that from happening is the fact that I might be the only (remaining) CB player from the entire country, let alone the same city.

AdminNightStrike May 17 2010 12:12 PM EDT

Jir, I have no idea what you are asking for.

QBOddBird May 17 2010 6:04 PM EDT

I think Jiraiya is agreeing with the concept of flagging former multis as credit risks due to having proven that they are willing to game the system, intentionally break ban-worthy rules, and risk losing everything to achieve (their own enjoyment, USD sales, fill in the blank here.)

AdminNightStrike May 17 2010 6:12 PM EDT

Flagging users as a credit risk is done on a case by case basis. If you feel the need to raise an issue about a user, do so using the proper channels.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0033GD">flag for former multis?</a>