The SoC: another save my strat political thread (in General)

Where the hell is the counter to this thing? At least GA has DM!

/kick

Magic and RoBF damage are immune if I recall....

and now Bast hates me... could it get any worse...

Seriously though, GA is capped at 60%, the SoC seems to just keep going!

Persian's shield flashes! [5,506,787]
Persian's shield flashes! [3,199,982]
Persian's shield flashes! [2,589,168]
Persian's shield flashes! [2,642,681]

for a grand total of 13,938,618 against a minion with 20m HP

Wasn't it just supposed to return damage it absorbed?
This blow back of every since point of damage I do is just insane

Loch: so we're back to tank's don't deserve to win?

Even the much whined about exbow has counters! How the hell am I supposed to kill someone who throws all the damage I do right back at me?

"Secondary Effect: The absorbed damage can be returned for double the damage on the next hit if you use a Hammer Class Weapon or Unarmed Combat." - from the wiki

Doubled? Why? Seriously this thing is just out of control...

Now at least you know how I felt when you got the #1 MPB for Single Minions and the #2 MPB in the Game off of me. Welcome to my world >:-)

I wasn't implying anything of the sort... merely saying it doesn't return all damage...

It only absorbs half a % per + so it returns 1% of the damage per +.

Zen: I'd have the #1 single minion without the SoC because of BL and the MoD, and I'd love for the extra damage of the SoC not to count towards MPB (as well as BGs, BL, and MoD extra damage for that matter)

Nat: then something else is wrong, because 30% of the damage I do would in no way add up to more than 60% of your HP.

That would be because of my 257 AC + SS. SoC is the first damage reduction on the stack.

And don't forget that I regen 600k per round.

So I do 4m damage in a round, your shield flashes for 2.1m

You're saying that 30% of the raw damage I did is 2.1m?

This is so much better than GA...

Yes, that sounds about right. I have about 50% DR with the AC and SoC.

Persian crunched a maug warrior with The Key of Orden [4083416] (first round of Melee)

a maug warrior's shield flashes! [2,576,911] (second round of Melee)

The results I'm seeing here do NOT agree with what you're saying at all.

You did 4M to me, no other damage and I returned 2.5m... how is that not broken?

I believe Nat means the incoming (unreduced damage) is around 8mil....

The SoC basis it's number on that and then it is reduced 50% by the time it hits that minion...

30% of 8mil would be 2.4mil...

just my guess though

Loch: you missed the part where that's Nat hitting me, and I've got about 100 AC...

Post-battle stats
	a maug warrior
Experience	125,615
Hit Points	2,697,063
Strength	15,131,590
Dexterity	13,469,040
Armor Class	97
Melee Base to-Hit	60
Melee Bonus to-Hit	273
Ranged Base to-Hit	56
Ranged Bonus to-Hit	344
Damage Inflicted	38,202,552
Play-by-play
Construct	Team Rocket
a maug warrior found no valid targets on which to cast Antimagic Field a maug warrior cast Vampiric Aura on a maug warrior (?) The entire party benefits from some outside force! Persian cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (297,900) Giovanni found no valid targets on which to cast Antimagic Field Giovanni cast Steel Skin on all friendly Minions (2555940) enchantment effects that cannot be determined before combat are displayed as '?' Ranged Combat a maug warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [140238] Persian looks weaker! a maug warrior hit Persian with laser cannons [110774] Persian looks weaker! a maug warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [157658] Persian looks weaker! Persian regenerated 408,670 HP   a maug warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [160510] Persian looks weaker! a maug warrior hit Persian with laser cannons [189922] Persian looks weaker! a maug warrior hit Persian with laser cannons [177057] Persian looks weaker! a maug warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [135901] Persian looks weaker! Persian hit a maug warrior with Scratch for no damage Persian regenerated 600,000 HP   a maug warrior struck deep into Giovanni with laser cannons [282903] Giovanni looks weaker! Persian absorbs damage [282903] a maug warrior skewered Giovanni with laser cannons [353257] Persian absorbs damage [353257] a maug warrior skewered Giovanni with laser cannons [405489] Persian absorbs damage [405489] Persian's shot flew past a maug warrior Persian regenerated 600,000 HP   a maug warrior hit Persian with laser cannons [185003] a maug warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [135869] a maug warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [133641] a maug warrior hit Persian with laser cannons [148768] Persian undershot a maug warrior Persian regenerated 600,000 HP   a maug warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [129856] a maug warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [145202] a maug warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [126742] a maug warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [159246] a maug warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [125113] Persian shot a maug warrior with Scratch for no damage Persian regenerated 600,000 HP   a maug warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [192920] a maug warrior hit Persian with laser cannons [141084] a maug warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [166384] a maug warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [171723] a maug warrior shot Persian with laser cannons [163482] Persian shot a maug warrior with Scratch for no damage Persian regenerated 600,000 HP   Melee Combat a maug warrior's shield flashes! [92] a maug warrior fractured Persian with proton torpedo [3032599] a maug warrior draws strength from his weapon! [337025] a maug warrior tapped Persian with proton torpedo [1131465] a maug warrior draws strength from his weapon! [249677] a maug warrior tapped Persian with proton torpedo [1465738] a maug warrior draws strength from his weapon! [332975] a maug warrior fractured Persian with proton torpedo [1773268] a maug warrior draws strength from his weapon! [251386] a maug warrior burns from the flames surrounding Giovanni (2111615) Persian's shield flashes! [5,772,047] Persian beat a maug warrior with The Key of Orden [3739794] Persian regenerated 600,000 HP   a maug warrior's shield flashes! [2,424,346] a maug warrior beat Persian with proton torpedo [3401544] a maug warrior draws strength from his weapon! [312089] a maug warrior tapped Persian with proton torpedo [1120744] a maug warrior draws strength from his weapon! [309518] a maug warrior beat Persian with proton torpedo [1714335] a maug warrior draws strength from his weapon! [254078] a maug warrior crunched Persian with proton torpedo [1764339] a maug warrior draws strength from his weapon! [276558] a maug warrior beat Persian with proton torpedo [1169185] a maug warrior draws strength from his weapon! [276152] a maug warrior burns from the flames surrounding Giovanni (2085531) Persian's shield flashes! [4,165,251] Persian beat a maug warrior with The Key of Orden [2706934] Persian regenerated 600,000 HP   a maug warrior's shield flashes! [1,749,515] a maug warrior beat Persian with proton torpedo [2986119] a maug warrior draws strength from his weapon! [273311] a maug warrior crushed Persian with proton torpedo [1171750] a maug warrior draws strength from his weapon! [301034] a maug warrior pulverized Persian with proton torpedo [1461234] a maug warrior pulverized Persian with proton torpedo [1106694] a maug warrior cries "aryte arcaniss!" a maug warrior burns from the flames surrounding Giovanni (2347596) Persian's shield flashes! [3,211,983] Persian fractured a maug warrior with The Key of Orden [2093772] Persian bruised a maug warrior with The Key of Orden [10] Persian regenerated 600,000 HP R.I.P. Persian   a maug warrior's shield flashes! [1,349,270] a maug warrior pulverized Giovanni with proton torpedo [5264649] a maug warrior draws strength from his weapon! [49183] a maug warrior pulverized Giovanni with proton torpedo [2649464] a maug warrior crushed Giovanni with proton torpedo [2750683] a maug warrior cries "aryte arcaniss!" a maug warrior burns from the flames surrounding Giovanni (2180088) R.I.P. Giovanni

That had all the info I needed. The SoC clearly absorbs .75% per + and retaliates with 1.5% per plus. I can only assume this was the amount meant for it to be and it seems to be a reasonable amount.

Not to side track but no nov you would not, you got that MPB with a SoC against me remember? You even posted it up in a thread bro.

As far as the Rest of that well maybe that would be cool to see just how much Raw Damage a Player can do. However, if you did it that way you might have to strip away ALL Modifiers which then would make it a Weapon and Intrinsic only Stat. Still an interesting thought!

Zenai: I've seen hits for 11m without the SoC... I'm pretty sure that tops anything your bow has done

Maybe but not almost Double that nov, my point was and still is you got a 20 Mil MPB with a SoC. The SoC of course being your main subject of contention in this thread.....get my point now?

Please nerf the SoC so Band of Wookies can be farmed. That is all, cheers.

Nerf the SoC? Really?

Yes, it's like GA, but unlike GA, you have to hit to deal any damage.

On top of that, it's one of th ebest EXBow counters (as I mentioned time and time again in all the EXbow threads). Nerf the SoC and you *have* to nerf the EXbow.

The largest SoC in the game is +31. That's a 46.5% return on Physical damage only. Unlike GA's 60%, for all damage types.

The 'counter' to the SoC is this. AC (just like GA) and not being hit. Either through large DEX gaps and/or large -PTH (much like you can also potentially use DM to negate GA).

We should also not forget that BL and Weapon properties apply to the SoC damage as well. So in that first hit you get your BL x2 Bonus to it and any returned damage with a MoD get the x2 versus any AS HP.

If anything, that's what we should be looking at to amend, not the SoC itself.

HOW interesting this is becoming! /me waits to see more

Oi, Nov No!!!!

Nov, as for 'save my strat', you don't have DM. Therefore you have no counter to GA, and it does more damage to you than the SoC ever could.

I'm surprised that isn't the focus of this thread.

Unfortunatley, this is the in built weakness of Single Minions. You could drop your AMF for DM, if you wanted a 'counter' to GA, but then Decay would pwn you.

Or you could change your MoD for a leech weapon to get a total 60% drain with your VA, so GA deals no damage (you leech a little more than it drains, ad GA is reduced by AC and your drain isn't).

Best counter to it though? Like with GA - which causes me no problems whatsoever - you need to do less damage. Its an approach that works, and its one of the reasons I don't use an ELB.

It like GA is built to be most effective against large physical damage, so I reckon they are doing the job they are needed for. Because how many counters does large physical damage actually have?

Personally I'd like it to respond to RBF damage...

Awesome!


Let's call for a counter to the things that beat our strategies. ;p

while were on this topic. Can we get AC looked at, for a minimal

investment you can get nearly 95% damage reduction. Oh and also the

jigorokano familiar, I feel the dex and pth are too high on this silly

tattoo. And don't even get me started about magic missile! Bahaha..

Also Nov, you're VA isn't big enough. You don't get the full 40% drain (from the log you posted above).

'Tash's SoC is at most +26 for a maximum return of 39%. If you had full effect of your VA, it's 40% would cover the SoC damage done (especially with it being reduced by your armour, where your Drain isn't).

And with your EXBow reducing all of 'Tash's natural damage to zero, all you'd have to worry about then is killing before the RoBF gets you.

For example, in the round before Pesian died, you only leeched 1,428,395 health back (out of 9,170,147 damage inflicted, or a 16% return), but the SoC returned 4,165,251.

So your VA only mitigated 34% instead of the 100% it should have.

The wiki is wrong. Search your changelogs, people!

Hint: sep 2008

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002YAI

Yeah, an extra 50% dmg on whatever else you were talking about.

From the original two Changelogs on the SoC;

Origianlly it was 0.25 absorbed, x1 returned. Then buffed to 0.5 absorbed, x2 returned.

So I guess currently it's 0.5% per + absorbed, and x3 damage returned.

So the +31 SoC would absorb 15.5% Physical damage and return 46.5%.

Still lower than GA, and nearly (depending on AC) totally mitigatable by VA.

Doesn't really change the details of my posts above. ;)

NS, absorbing 0.5 and returning x3 damage is just the same as 'tash posted about it dealing 1.5% of it's plus as returned damage. ;)

Yeah, I thought it was changed twice. I just assumed the part about it returning double damage. I got 42% damage returned from Nov's SoC and worked from there.

As an aside, if the issue is that the SoC comes first (well it's damage reduciton doesn't as they're all multiplicative), it's done that way so that you don't make the return worse, if you up your AC/Damage reduction.

We're all for wanting reasons to up our gear, but imagine if you had a SoC where it *got worse* if you upped your other armour.

Would suck, wouldn't it.

I suppose that's the largest difference between the SoC and GA. The SoC retaliation is before any of your damage reductions, where as GA while larger, is after.

Taking Nov's figure of 100AC (no SS so a reduction of 17%), and using a +26 SoC (for 39% retaliation), let's compare the SoC to (a max effect) GA.


Hit for 100, SoC retaliates with 39 damage.


Hit for 100, AC reduces damage to 83, GA retaliates with 50 damage.

Even coming after damage reduction, GA still beats out a SoC.

(cheeky post)


Your EXBow takes *all* of 'tash's damage, in a single round. This is versus a Tank set up with arguably the most defense versus the EXBow.

First round, no damage.

Tanks don't deserve to win?

:P

Against nov GA takes about 8-10M levels to be full effect, a large investment, an SoC takes a few million, whooptie freaking doo! SoC is much much much more effective investment wise.

It takes me about six hits to drain Nat completely

Sorry Nov that should indeed have been two rounds.

Titan from the log above tash would need at most 3m. Ga.

Actually more like eight hits over three rounds...

as satirical as this thread was supposed to be comparing the SoC with an exbow is just about enough to get me going for real

I've got more than quarter of my NW invested in a defensive item to allow me to take on other tanks with more armor, more kill slots, and way more ranged damage than me. I'm giving up six rounds of offense so I can actually attempt to run a pure melee tank. How exactly does this rank along side equipping a shield?

I'm with Titan here....

Saying GA is more effective is a bit misleading... it certainly is nowhere near as efficient in this case.

The problem is we are dealing with a case at the fringe of the CB battle dynamics... how many 20mil HP SoC/TSA minions are there in the game?

It almost reminds me of the old exbow drain (before it was linked to damage). It was never a problem until exbow NW grew to the point of guaranteed drain, every time. It was adjusted as a result.
(please no exbow debates)

I think it bears watching, maybe a little 'balancing'.... nothing rushed or drastic though.

Maybe instead of just letting it deal 3x the damage absorbed, make it also check how much damage the minion is doing as well and it cannot increase damage by more than 100%.

So basically if you wanted to get the full 3x out of it, which for example say the 3x gave you 2 mil, you would have to already be hitting for 2 mil with that minion.

The real reason the SoC can be too powerful is that it provides a very high damage source for too little expenditure. Basically a minion with a very low weapon, no stats and a boosted SoC can deal massive damage. In fact that same minion could even train GA just fine and rack up alot of damage return for one team.

If you forced the minion with the SoC to devote itself to dealing damage, I don't think there would be as many issues with it.

The SoC can't do anything by itself. You also have to invest in a hammer type weapon that is large enough to hit. If you don't there won't be a flash.

a +100 MoD costs you 15 mil.

That is far from hard to get.

Not form the posted log mate, and it was the only thing I was going by.

I mistakenly said a single round, as I forgot rou nds weren't simultanious, and you get the second rounds of hits in before your opponent.

But by the posted log, at the start of the second round, tash could deal no damage to you.


Apples and oranges.

Team Rocket (which you still beat, the teams from your recent battles you lose to all use GA...) isn't one of those teams. It has, ok only slightly more kill slots, and no ranged damage.

It's a team designed to have nearly the best protection to the EXBow possible (some could argue the DEX/Evasion route is better, and the current set up could also benefit from a ToE, but this is digressing), and that still does nothing.

SoC aside, Where's the counter to the EXBow?

Or should Tanks not be allowed to win?

As said, you still beat this team, and you could do it better with more VA. Your VA isn't large enough.

All said and done, you're still running the weakest possible type of team in CB. Single Minions can not compete with any other minion type (with the posible exception of Massive NW ELB Archers), as they are too limited in choices. It took me ages to let go of my single minion fixation, but CB just does not support them.

And I think you're starting to see the inherant problems and disadvantages with running one.

And a +100 MoD is easily countered alone at this level. Nov already has said he has a +160 DB. Without my dex and leadership I wouldn't be hitting at all when he uses the DB.

And you have to live through said incoming damage long enough to land a flashing hit.

I love the way folk are throwing around 15+ Mil and being chump change.

It's not. It's really not.

How so Loch?

Cold Logic's Guardian Angel smote a maug warrior (1298594)
Reflection's Guardian Angel smote a maug warrior (1484983)
Penetrating Thought's Guardian Angel smote a maug warrior (1537094)

Because it's not... the SoC would return more damage than this.

I love that you don't think 15 mil is chump change.

People have multiple 100+ NW items on thier teams.

A 15 mil NW item is chump change, and to state otherwise is just blatant lies.

Yes, 15 can take awhile to come up with if you're currently competing for a top spot and buying all your BA, but anyone in this game that isn't brain dead can come up with 15 mil in a relatively short time if they wanted.

Nov, what kind of test is that?

What was the incoming damage, what levels where the GA, what percentages were they working at?

Wraith, after having most of my gear, getting some from Random Drops, and having to buy a little, after nearly 4 months of my NCB run, with no BA purchase, I've got a total of 23M NW.

That's with winning a Tourny as well, and not funding any give aways myself.

The size I am now, it would take me around 3 and a half months to earn 15 Mil.

Over most of the time of my NCB, and I won't earn 15 Mil now till my NCB is over.

That is in no way easy, or a short amount of time.

GL it's actually the highest GA return I see, Dolphin (who has a larger GA) returns more like a mil max...

The SoC is way more effective against me than GA (assuming as Nat said you can hit me)

My GA maxes around 7mil on my 3 enchanter minions (only 5.5mil on the tank).

I have about 30mil HP at the start of the fight as Nov does not DM anything. When I attack Nov I see a total of about 11 mil backlash against him (as I don't kill his minion it is fair to say I'm not 'missing' any damage).

I'm retaliating about 37% damage....

This is with about 20 to 30 mil in Corns/AoFs/SBs.... and my Tat being an 12mil RoS adding 6 mil levels to AS.

Admittedly I do only have 70% of the XP invested but given that I only have about 77% of his MPR and the MPR/XP relationship I would reckon I maybe have a higher percentage of my total XP...

Now to be fair, i do also get backlash against magic, but in this case, as I stated earlier, the SoC is more efficient (less NW, lower percentage of XP trained, more backlash)

Your GA should be more than enough to get the full 60%, even thought those three minions have no damage reduction on them. If your 7 Mil GA isn't being reduced, than Nov would have to be hitting them far harder than 7 Mil per hit, to break down your GA.

In which case the easy answer is to have your GA work off of your 200+ AC minion to make sure you always get the 60% return. ;)

As for the cost comparison, a +31 SoC should cost around 24 Mil, so the same sort of expenditure as your corns/SB/etc.

GA has to be 2.5 times the damage taken in 1 hit.

Ah.

Lol.

I always thought GA had to equal the damage to work at max effect.

my mistake... I have 55% of my xp used, Nat has 57%

This is a plea to the almighty admins. Please reverse your every changelog meant to affect novice, and move it to another person of your choosing. I suggest Natasha, imo.

lolwut?

Cy is doing his best impression of a talking head news pundit

I'm a chump sir! I'll take that change. Send to J-Ash thanks.

Sorry, I made it seem obnoxious but 15 mil is high end.

The other point is that single minions are at a definite disadvantage. The game mechanics just work this way. Unless single minion items are introduced this won't change and holding on to that will only bring you more frustration.

Cyc, please stop.

That is not just a request.

I must be missing something; Cy's comment seems lighthearted.

This thread coming from the person who uses the most abusive item in the game to maximal effect.

/me laughs.

But to a real discussion.

1) The SoC does nothing vs the RBF or DD spells, absolutely ZERO. There is your counter. To state GA has DM as a counter while the SoC does not is a false argument.
2) One has to live through all the damage one takes in order to be able to deal that massive damage people are quoting.
3) One still has to hit with ones hammer class weapon to deal all that damage
4) It is quite funny that people perceive CB as a highest ELB wins when this is one item designed to lower that "uber" damage
5) It may be perhaps the only way a tank can ever hope to do damage vs the UberPowerful exbow. And personally I love it!
6) Using a SoC eliminates using the "overpowered" MgS or the BoM. So while it may be powerful, it still has competitors to its usage. If something has other options which may be just as good or even better, it certainly cannot be overpowered. It is powerful enough for its design.

Technically nothing retaliates RoBF damage....

DM reduces the intended effect of GA, nothing reduces the intended effect of SoC, his point is valid... if you were arguing that the intended effect is already limited to the point of not needing a counter then that is a separate issue.


Very true... the question has only been raised due to Nat's 20mil hp minion... however without caps in CB there potential for this issue to recur (and perhaps become 'prevalent')



Not that hard, at higher levels, to drop in a melee hammer big enough to get you pretty good odds on a hit... but yes, it is an additional requirement to be considered (and investment to be weighed).


There is no ELB in this case... and the SoC is a far more effective counter to a melee tank than an Archer.


I think nov's exbow is there purely to stop his opponents' exbows from completely draining him before melee...
Additionally, the SoC breeds wall/tanks as there is little benefit to having 10mil str drained as opposed to 3mil... and you get more HP with only 3mil str.


I don't know if I've seen the BoM or MgS referred to as "overpowered" for a while (with or without the ""). But yes, there are several compelling options available at the shield slot and until the SoC becomes the de facto shield of serious competitors I don't know that more than a minor tweak here and there is needed.