This is crap.. (in General)


Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 1:11 PM EDT

I log in to -3700 clan points against me.

NS I seen the conversation you had with frozen yesterday. We need to quit beating around the bush and figure out a way to ad more targets to the clan pool.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 19 2010 1:24 PM EDT

And while you're at it can you round off all the edges of the interface and put padding on the door frames? Wouldn't want anyone to get a boo-boo.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 1:29 PM EDT

This thread is about clans. Feel free to take your sarcastic comments elsewhere. Need me to open a thread for you?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 1:29 PM EDT

Others have handled worse. Try and find ways to throw off your farmers or talk with your clan leader to setup some defenses.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 1:31 PM EDT

"Try and find ways to throw off your farmers or talk with your clan leader to setup some defenses. "


Okay.. Set me up with some defenses against mikel and sickone? For some reason I don't see that happening. Maybe the fact I'm 1/5th the size of them?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 1:33 PM EDT

Tough those types of farmers out with the knowledge that each time they hit you they are cutting their growth down by more than half.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 19 2010 1:35 PM EDT

doesn't some of the clan rituals help in this?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 1:36 PM EDT

Also I doubt they hit you many times daily because they probably have a huge fight list if they are hitting that far down. The ones you are getting the big negatives from are the people who are smaller or a similar size and farming you for like 200 times a day.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 1:37 PM EDT

Yes Dude, Ulmo's SoS ritual will cut the amount of lost points in half if it is active all the time. We were able to help Womp stay more or less in the positives while he was getting farmed for over 1.6k battles a day.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 1:37 PM EDT

Just a little tidbit.

Most of the ncb's and nub's around me are not in a clan, due to farming. Is that how this game was designed to be played?

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 1:40 PM EDT

"The ones you are getting the big negatives from are the people who are smaller or a similar size and farming you for like 200 times a day."


Smaller yes, not quite small enough though ;).. I just went through my fightlist and they are all at 1.9 million mpr or higher. (except for shinobu who is similar size to me.)

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 1:42 PM EDT

Just wondering but where are the giant group of non clan n*bs? Most of them that I have seen have a clan they are in. There are 4 of the n*bs in that score region in my clan right now.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 1:46 PM EDT

Also, you have a 250% Score to PR ratio. If you don't want to be farmed quite so much then lower your score. That comes with trade-offs of its own but you have some excess score before it will start hurting you.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 1:47 PM EDT

So maybe I exaggerated a little bit. But here are two ncb's that are not in a clan due to farming Eliteofdelete and also Sk. And then there is a NUB named Jasper.


Also you are kind of proving my point for me. Two people in your clan who fight pretty consistently in this score region are negative (shinobu and Gl).

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 1:48 PM EDT

Actually only Shin is negative right now. They look a lot worse due to score testing.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 1:49 PM EDT

Ha. My apologies. :)

Anyhow. it kind of looks like there is a giant clan dead zone and it really "vacuums" to be at the bottom of it.. hehe.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 19 2010 1:50 PM EDT

it does suck, but most of us that have run ncb's have been through the same thing and some of us have done it multiple times. we now have some tools we didn't earlier through rituals.

having a supportive clan is the biggest key in my mind and i am grateful to my clan for indulging me in the runs i have made.

AdminNightStrike August 19 2010 2:13 PM EDT

It would not be unreasonable to disband clans on sunday instead of daily for clans that are -1000. It would give you a chance to catch up. Or get worse :)

Sickone August 19 2010 2:15 PM EDT

...or just disable clan auto-disbanding altogether ?

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 2:16 PM EDT

That would be awesome :)

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 2:17 PM EDT

I feel disbanding should be based off of last participation date rather than weekly score. So let's say no on in your clan signs on for 3 months or so, then you clan would be disbanded..

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 2:17 PM EDT

NS, it disbands on a weekly basis, that is if they have a net score of -1000 or less for the week.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 19 2010 2:19 PM EDT

Oops, I see what you are saying now. I think that would be good if it only does a check at Sunday.

Admiralkiller August 19 2010 3:48 PM EDT

A suggestion. A clan member may only be in the negative to a max amount...but positive still has no cap.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] August 19 2010 4:05 PM EDT

Or just scale the clan points way up.

Some one earning a bonus with a positive score is worth 16 cp all the way down to in a clan with a negative score and no bonus 4 cp. Of course an example but you get the idea. Would cause somewhat of a feeding frenzy for those with positive clan points.

Sickone August 21 2010 6:04 PM EDT

they probably have a huge fight list if they are hitting that far down

Is 19 huge ? :P

AdminNightStrike August 21 2010 6:30 PM EDT

Mine's 18 :)

Jasper August 21 2010 7:54 PM EDT

Well, it IS crap. Knighthood II got killed due to my being farmed, in part by Kefeck's clan mates in I Win. Somewhat interesting that we had an "alliance" with this clan...
I won't participate in another clan unless it's my own, or I know the other members personally. My experience with clans during my NUB is having the clan leader encourage me to fight down in order to maximise clan points. What a waste. Zenai also talked me into rerolling once so he could get his buddy into the clan... Is it a coincidence that he left and started another clan that would eventually deliver us the death blow? "I Win" indeed. Well played.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] August 21 2010 8:27 PM EDT


Oh my.

AdminNightStrike August 21 2010 9:04 PM EDT

Jasper, I am very sorry to hear about your clan experience. That is unusual for a site like CB, where in general, users try very hard to help each other (even sometimes to their own detriment.) We don't have a large contingent of people that coerce you to do something bad for your character but that benefits them.

I encourage you to give clan fighting another chance, and I can personally recommend a number of players that will give you a guiding hand.

AdminShade August 21 2010 9:07 PM EDT

Jasper, a part of that is my fault in not being online. If you'd give clan fighting another chance, I'd ask you to join my clan and start again where both of us left. :)

Zenai August 21 2010 9:47 PM EDT

Ok Jasper.

1) Your char wasn't that big when I asked you to restart.
2) I helped you with items and your strat at no cost but xfers.
3) I gave you a lot of CBD to upgrade your items.
4) When I left TK II I honestly thought my personal finacial situation might force me to quit CB.
5) Yes we did have an Alliance all you had to do was tell your Clan Leader, CM your Farmer or CM me the situation would have been settled.

No offense but communication is key. You didn't say anything so nothing got taken care of it's that simple. I apologize for the situation I just did not know bro.

Mikel August 21 2010 10:07 PM EDT

I farm everyone who's clan is higher than mine. Leave your clan and I won't farm you anymore.

Natasha, that's now how the rewards works for those that exempt. You get random's with every player, Sometimes I get more xp off of a lower character than I do a higher one. It all balances out.

Jasper August 22 2010 1:06 AM EDT

I'm going to just chill out a bit before I start my first NCB; let the situation cool a bit before I decide what I'll do clan-wise.

Shade, thanks for the offer.

Zenai, I apologize for forgetting what help you gave me. Unfortunately the transfer logs don't seem to go back that far. I just don't recall you gifting me anything. If you did I'd certainly feel ashamed for calling you out on clan shenanigans like that. You're right that communication is the key. I have to communicate to be a part of the community, so I need to do that more.

Past about a million mpr I really hit a wall, where my score was above 3 million and I suddenly became a juicy target for chars above 2 million mpr. I remember very few days after that with net points over a few hundred.

From watching others it looks like the only way through this is to have only 1 or 2 good targets and not have any non-clan targets on the fight list. I'm just not able to make use of a large enough percentage of my BA this way. I get the impression that the core competitive group of players in this game are able to keep the window open all day... I'm afraid I can't be one of those guys.

Thanks though for all your comments and encouragement.

AdminNightStrike August 22 2010 1:13 AM EDT

The real solution is to find a clan that will be ok with you getting negative clan points while you grow because they know that it's an investment in your future. For, when you character is large, you will net 2k points a day.

Vets should be smart enough to know that they should invest in growing characters and not demand the impossible, but instead foster the achievable. It pays off dividends later.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] August 22 2010 1:22 AM EDT

The problem is not the farming..

It is just the general lack of clan targets. Increasing the clan fighting base will solve the problem.

Wraithlin August 22 2010 1:25 AM EDT

really it's your own fault.

Imagine if we had 10x the player base.

If you're already getting hit into -3700 because of being such an easy target, you'd be waking up to -10k easy.

switch your strats, drop your clan, or start an NCB.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] August 22 2010 1:29 AM EDT

"really it's your own fault."

Huh?

"Imagine if we had 10x the player base."

Than I would actually have a fight list with actual clan members?

"If you're already getting hit into -3700 because of being such an easy target, you'd be waking up to -10k easy."

I'm an easy target for 2 million mpr teams?

"switch your strats, drop your clan, or start an NCB. "

A switch in strats will not help.. I should not have to drop my clan what kind of an option is that? And finally this is an ncb..


(feel free to read through the thread before posting next time)...

Soxjr August 22 2010 1:41 AM EDT

Here is the problem. The bonus for being in a clan is too much to pass up. The extra xp helps a lot. Unfortunately the cost to buy ba while on a NCB char is so high that you don't get all the ba everyday like non ncb people get. Then there is a HUGE choice. Do you fight only clan targets which will usually, almost always mean you are going to lose xp because you are fighting lower challenge bonus targets, but that means you are closer to even on clan points. Or do you fight some non clan targets that get you great challenge bonus but terrible clan points, and therefore you are terribly negative in your clan? That is the biggest choice right there.

If I was to make a ncb char I would explain at a certain point I will be a bad person for the clan, because I will be fighting the best challenge bonus I can get and if they aren't clan people then I'm sorry. If the clan wants my clan points at the beginning of my ncb when I'm not getting farmed then they will have to deal with my lack of clan points when I hit that farming wall. If they can't then they don't get the whole deal. :) It's like Nightstrike said, if the clan is helpful and understands it's about growth and when the ncb is over you will be a great member of the team then they can accept the few months where you will be terrible.

I'm tired so I hope this makes sense.

Wraithlin August 22 2010 2:08 AM EDT

"really it's your own fault."

Huh?

--No need to explain this one if you don't already understand.

"Imagine if we had 10x the player base."

Than I would actually have a fight list with actual clan members?

--Oh and you can clear 10k points a day with all clan targets?

"If you're already getting hit into -3700 because of being such an easy target, you'd be waking up to -10k easy."

I'm an easy target for 2 million mpr teams?

--10x the player base would be 10x the players at all levels, so yes even yours.

"switch your strats, drop your clan, or start an NCB. "

A switch in strats will not help.. I should not have to drop my clan what kind of an option is that? And finally this is an ncb..

--If a switch in strats won't help then you're not playing a good one and you're giving people points. If you can't maintain a positive ratio then you should have to drop your clan. Just because you are playing an NCB and fail doesn't mean starting a new one over isn't a valid strat.


(feel free to read through the thread before posting next time)...

--i do read through a thread, and I haven't changed my mind at all with your response, only solidified my ideas that you really do need a change. At the very least start up one of those suggestions for my strat threads and see if you can get some ideas for how to not get farmed so much anymore.

Wraithlin August 22 2010 2:13 AM EDT

I don't really mean to come off as a jerk if I am taken that way.

I had to scrap my NCB about halfway though already, so I've come against similar problems.

I also had to drop clan before because of people farming me.

On the up side with NCBs you usually don't have to drop clan that long to get yourself off the fight list, and you can get back in the clan for quite awhile before being picked back up, especially when it's people much larger than you doing the farming. And you can even catch up and pass alot of those higher up farmers.

Zenai August 22 2010 5:31 AM EDT

Jasper: No worries man the only reason I remember is that it was you and Zak that did the restart as a favor for me and that I reimburst both of you for it. At the time it put a dent in my CBD savings to do so. At any rate no one asked you to fight down for CPs all I ever asked you to do was fight more clanners that gave you a high CB if you could find them. As mentioned above fighting down is detrimental to longterm plans which is something I never take lightly. Longterm plans is what makes CB go around, it is a game of patience and hard work just as well as strategy. If you need help with your NCB let me know if I have time I will do so.

Kef: Bro it happens in a N*B no matter what. At this point the best thing you can do is persevere. It sucks but there it is. Hopefully there will be another way to get around this later. It was a part of my point in your other thread about CPs and how they are obtained. Some kind of marker should be used to determine a worthy/ unworthy target. Doing something like this would help protect lower MPR chars more than just a loss of experience. Some do not compete for MPR but rather CPs even to the detriment of others unfortunately.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 22 2010 8:48 AM EDT

the system itself encourages this behavior inherently in two ways. as people near the midway point they can no longer fight up as they hit the ceiling of top players. if they do persevere long enough they are given the exemption of penalties from fighting down.

i still think that increasing the score spectrum would be something useful to at least try and alleviate some of these issues. if our score spread were twice what it is currently, then the newest people in 6/20 would likely get enough of a bonus so that they would concentrate on those targets rather than ones much lower.

people would still be farmed, but the focus would shift to those also in the 6/20 zone rather than those lower. in effect making it more worthwhile to hit those closer in mpr rather than those much lower.

Wraithlin August 22 2010 8:50 AM EDT

limiting the lack of fighting down penalty to only other 6/20 targets would alleviate alot of problems too.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 22 2010 8:52 AM EDT

for example now i have about 6 people on my list that give me some kind of challenge bonus. it is usually 0 to 6 percent sometimes jumping to 10 on one. if i fought just them though then the reduction in score from me hitting them more often would likely cancel out the challenge bonus after a day or so.

if i got a bonus from them that was higher than my clan bonus and could also be sustained near that level, then i would fight a much smaller list and removed the other 15 or so targets that i have on there simply for the sake of convenience.

Zenai August 22 2010 9:26 AM EDT

dudemus: Although. A good idea it would be Temporary fix. Also this would only target those who actually care about MPR more than CPs. Something would need to be done to stop those whose main focus is mostly if not solely CPs.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 22 2010 10:43 AM EDT

i disagree. i wasn't saying i would drop clan targets and fight regular ones. i would just weed my list down to those clan targets that would give me a challenge bonus as well and drop those that don't.

hence my clan score wouldn't change at all i would just have a smaller fight list of clan targets. those would naturally be the higher mpr ones or very focused strategies instead of the way it is now where i add all clan members that i can beat 100% of the time with a score over 5m.

what i was thinking was that more score could be granted per fight. thus this would in no way be temporary. everyone is generating more score permanently thus incresing challenge bonuses up high thus encouraging fighters to fight up high as opposed to the current system that encourages us to fight everyone once we get in the 6/20 zone.

i simply like this better than doing away with the 6/20 exemption as i personally prefer rewarding people for positive behavior rather than penalizing for negative.

Zenai August 22 2010 11:39 AM EDT

i disagree. i wasn't saying i would drop clan targets and fight regular ones. i would just weed my list down to those clan targets that would give me a challenge bonus as well and drop those that don't.

I never said that either dudemus. My twist on Kefecks idea simply called for a Marker, (MPR which is less able to be gamed than PR via NW at leat that was my thought), that would reward for fighting up and penalize for fighting down CPwise regardless of being in a clan or not.


I still think that increasing the score spectrum would be something useful to at least try and alleviate some of these issues. if our score spread were twice what it is currently, then the newest people in 6/ 20 would likely get enough of a bonus so that they would concentrate on those targets rather than ones much lower.


Now what I got from this was that it would be an increase in score, similar to what you said later:

what i was thinking was that more score could be granted per fight. thus this would in no way be temporary. everyone is generating more score permanently thus incresing challenge bonuses up high thus encouraging fighters to fight up high as opposed to the current system that encourages us to fight everyone once we get in the 6/20 zone.


A per fight Score Inflation(which is what I'm getting here) would indeed be a temporary fix as it would settle back down in a while and we would be back at square one on an overall (just a few steps above). The same cycle would reappear it would just be a matter of time.


i simply like this better than doing away with the 6/20 exemption as i personally prefer rewarding people for positive behavior rather than penalizing for negative.

I totally agree with this and I hate it every time I see some one mention it. It is not easy to get there and stay there.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 22 2010 11:58 AM EDT

A per fight Score Inflation(which is what I'm getting here) would indeed be a temporary fix as it would settle back down in a while and we would be back at square one on an overall (just a few steps above). The same cycle would reappear it would just be a matter of time.

i still disagree. the spread now is <8m score down to zero. adding more score per fight would widen that. are you saying that even adding more score per fight permanently it would still go back to where we have the same less than 8m score spread from top to bottom?

if so then we didn't add enough score in. then we add some more. each increment we increase in permanent score should widen the score spectrum from top to bottom.

i would suggest doing this in small stages until we see a challenge bonus fairly regularly in the 6/20 zone...not a massive one but enough to make it worth limiting our fight list to those targets that give us that challenge bonus. if it then stabilizes some as score is redistributed we tweak again.

Zenai August 22 2010 12:14 PM EDT

are you saying that even adding more score per fight permanently it would still go back to where we have the same less than 8m score spread from top to bottom?

No I am not dudemus. What I am saying is that we would still run into this same problem just at a higher level than now. IE this wheras a good idea is STILL a temporary fix as we would have to do this multiple times. The only way I could see this working is if it were on a sliding scale of some type, but would still be at a loss as to what the marker would be, otherwise this would turn into a Grinding Bonus(like the N*B).

Just my thoughts on this.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 22 2010 12:20 PM EDT

i still don't see that as happening as once you get the 6/20 zone getting some challenge bonus off of targets they would limit their own lists. it should stabilize at some point that would allow enough of a bonus to encourage fighters to do so.

in the short term what you are saying would likely happen as the first implementation would encourage us to do that but then as we shorten our list the bonus would decrease again. one more increment past that though should stabilize at a level where enough of a bonus would remain to keep us on the shorter lists.

even if it does just move the problem up, helping the lower game is something that is crucial to the game as well. either way, it is a win in my mind! ; )

Zenai August 22 2010 12:58 PM EDT

Helping the lower game I am all for and as I said I do think it is a good idea. Unfortunately though we will still hit the same walls sooner or later. Now if there way a way to make your idea a permanent one then I would be one of the first on the bandwagon. I just do not have the right answer right now to do so. It is a tantalizing thought though.
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