ENC Revisited (in General)


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 1:07 PM EDT

Encumbered at: 178,285,742

Cool. Now my guy isn't particularily strong (2M STR), but I'm getting an ENC boost form my UC gears (An extra 64 levels!).

I'm currently using;

Net Worth: $23,975,929

Worth of gear on this minion. So I have 154,309,813 space for additional gear.

And I can stick that all into a Ranged Weapon.

Now, I make about 1.5M CBD a week, so for my relatively small (MPR:2,309,827), not really optimised Tank, it would take me (or have taken me...) nealy two years of solid playing (at my current size) and saving, not spending a penny (Including not buying any stupidly coslty NCB BA...), to have a Ranged Weapon large enough to fill my current ENC. And agian, doing absolutly nothing else with that cash.

Does my Current ENC seem about right to eveyone? Too large? Too small?

Personally, I don't think I'll ever have, nor would ever have had, enough cash to have built a weapon that big.

Unless I bought money.

Which is rather what ENC is supposed to limit, isn't it?

Does everyone feel that ENC is doing its job currently? Is it too much on small minion counts and too stringent on large minion counts?

Or am I just too rubbish with CB money? ;)

BadFish September 11 2010 1:11 PM EDT

Is it too much on small minion counts and too stringent on large minion counts?

Yeah. But ask someone who uses USD and you'll get a different answer.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 11 2010 1:13 PM EDT

ENC might be a little too lenient as a whole for the upper level game, but overall I think it is fairly well setup.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 11 2010 1:21 PM EDT

there are people who've never bought a single CB currently up against ENC levels

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 11 2010 1:32 PM EDT

the whole purpose of enc was to limit the influence of usd on the game. it has to be restrictive to be effective.

i think the best determination would be some way of seeing, with the active playerbase, how many minions are actually at their encumbrance level and how many have under 75%, under 50% and under 25% of their enc levels.

let the statistics decide! if very few are close then it likely isn't doing its job whereas if the numbers say that quite a few are then maybe it is too restrictive.

Lochnivar September 11 2010 1:33 PM EDT

Mages will tank your stats there dude....

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 11 2010 1:36 PM EDT

we have mages left? ; 0

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 11 2010 1:41 PM EDT

it would actually be pretty easy to have it ignore mages and enchanters...the main point though is that there should be some way to determine in a non-anecdotal manner just how restrictive it currently is and the team make-up of those being restricted.

Lochnivar September 11 2010 1:44 PM EDT

I would also be concerned with 1 minion vs 4 minion set-ups....
More ENC is just about the only perk 1 minion strats have left.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 11 2010 1:48 PM EDT

yeah, that is what i was saying about team make-up, i mean it is obvious that the more minions and the more equal their hp, then the more restrictive encumbrance is, but if it is working fine for all but the 4 minion teams then it may need to adjust for team size.

QBJohnnywas September 11 2010 1:50 PM EDT

I've 150 mill left of ENC on my tank, and my weapons are pretty big. The only problem I can see at upper levels is non ToA tanks having to compete with both ToA tanks and big DBs. The cost of PTH almost makes a fairly high ENC threshold necessary.

Zenai September 11 2010 1:56 PM EDT

I have a ToA Archer Tank and you know what even without hitting my ENC Limit it is STILL very hard to stay competitive with a multitude of Strats out there right now. ENC Limits is not the problem, SM Teams should have a bit more versatility but that is a different subject.

I do believe that 4 Minion Teams should get a bit of a ENC buff as it were. I think it would allow them to compete a bit more evenly.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 11 2010 2:04 PM EDT

I would still like to see Dex add to your Enc atleast a little bit... how is an evasion wall supposed to equip gear when only the hp/evasion trained onto it adds to the Enc... What about the Dex that you need to train to keep Evasion at its full effect?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 2:21 PM EDT

there are people who've never bought a single CB currently up against ENC levels

What sized teams?

What have they spend thier cash on? Contests? BA over items?

Have they optimised thier ENC limits?

I don't doubt there are people out there limited by ENC. But are they the exception, or the rule?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 11 2010 2:21 PM EDT

Too small, and I don't use USD.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] September 11 2010 2:22 PM EDT

Zenai..

I guarantee you do not need anywhere near 700 million net worth to stay competitive, even with a single minion strategy. Although I guess that really depends on what you "deem" as competitive.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 2:22 PM EDT

the main point though is that there should be some way to determine in a non-anecdotal manner just how restrictive it currently is

Is there any way of doing this? Apart from getting everyone to list thier ENC and how much of it they have left, of course. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 2:24 PM EDT

Too small, and I don't use USD.

May I ask what you're ENC is, and how close you are to the limit?

You're a 4 minion team, without a Tank. Which is probably the most resticted ENC build to be.

If you have enough ENC for your walls armour, then what problem is ENC giving you?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 11 2010 2:31 PM EDT

This is my forging char, I don't base my decisions of my past chars, as I've only ever ran a 1 and 2 minion teams. ENC is about right for those, but is very restrictive on 3-4 minion teams.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 11 2010 2:34 PM EDT

Btw, a nice wall set will not fit on a wall with less than like 12M HP, which is crazy in my mind.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 11 2010 2:39 PM EDT

Sorry, I'll lower that to 8M, but still hard to do running a 3-4 minion team.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 11 2010 2:39 PM EDT

I don't think that is crazy at all. If it isn't restrictive then its not doing the job its meant to do.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 11 2010 2:42 PM EDT

Your idea of a nice wall is around 240 mil NW? That is just about my whole team's NW minus the tat. When tats are included I have the 14th highest NW in the game...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 2:42 PM EDT

Who's got the Single Minion with the largest ENC stat (ENC is one thing not displayed) and who's got the largest 4 minion with the same?

And are either of these limited by thier ENC currently?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 11 2010 2:44 PM EDT

Yes, 240M is a nice wall up top. If I can get it in a year, it's probably worse than nice, but I was being kind.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 11 2010 2:45 PM EDT

Nov or zen likely have the highest minion enc and it is probably around 1 bil. Mine is Encumbered at: 771,052,170

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 11 2010 2:45 PM EDT

Nov was very limited with Dagobah.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 11 2010 2:47 PM EDT

Armor: 465
Net Worth: $212,621,866

hmmm....

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 11 2010 2:55 PM EDT

Not my fault no one puts money in AC...

Lochnivar September 11 2010 3:29 PM EDT

Looking at my char I find the cost / enc ratio interesting.

I have a (light) Tank and an Enchanter with roughly equal XP

I'd say both are 'moderately equipped' in that they have solid but not outstanding stat boosting gear. The BoTH on the tank is about 68mil

Tank
ENC 237mil
NW 90mil
about 2.6/1

Enchanter
ENC 60mil
NW 5mil
about 15/1

Tanks, it seems, have a much greater need in terms of NW/XP. In either case it is my 'wealth' that is the limiting factor here, not ENC.

That said, my strat is by design not a high NW strat (330mil NW, 220 of which is Tat).

If I recall correctly ENC came in just after Freed hit 1 billion NW on a char a couple of years ago. Given the growth in character sizes since then maybe we do need to revisit the calculation.

However, the fact is I can beat Zen while using much less of a lower ENC suggests the value NW/ENC depends on context.

Zenai September 11 2010 3:32 PM EDT

I guarantee you do not need anywhere near 700 million net worth to stay competitive, even with a single minion strategy. Although I guess that really depends on what you "deem" as competitive.


For a SM Archer Tank it is at least around 400 - 500 Mil. For my version of competitive, which is fighting in the Top 15 - 20 and winning 80% of those Battles, it is much more as you can see from my NW.

Nat: Yes my ENC is around 1 Bil and if I could max it out without absolutely killing my Rewards(and my bank account) I would.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 11 2010 3:47 PM EDT

Why in the world do you think that it would kill your rewards. The only time it would even hurt your rewards is if you were getting a challenge bonus and then you increased your PR and lost challenge bonus. I don't see you getting a challenge bonus so more NW has absolutely NO detrimental effect, bank account aside.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 3:47 PM EDT

Zen, would you say you could max your ENC out as a Single Archer, without raiding your bank account? Or is purchase necessary to keep up with your ENC?

Zenai September 11 2010 3:50 PM EDT

GL: Kind of Purchase Necessary to be honest.

Nat: Rewards can still be lowered via PR even after you lose CBs. I've watched it in action when I added + to my DBs.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 3:53 PM EDT

So while ENC works to restrict 4 minions teams, it doesn't really restrict Single Minions.

Is this a thing that needs to be changed, or is it the sole remaining benefit of running a Single Minion, and should be retained? If so, does it not matter that spending isn't restricted for single Minions, regardless of benefits or lack of?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 11 2010 3:55 PM EDT

Not everyone is 5.5M MPR GL, it is quite easy to have 500M NW, and not a team able to support it.

Zenai September 11 2010 4:03 PM EDT

GL: Wrong.


I have the #2 Strength in the Game on my Minion

5,060,000 Mil Str allows me - Encumbered at: 474,644,268

With:
+13 AoM(26% Str Added), and
+30 BoM(30% Str Added)

Strength: 8,096,000 / 5,060,000 - Encumbered at: 566,018,234

With: With the # 1 ToA(Tat) in the game (15.4 Mil Currently)

I get: Strength: 20,951,769 / 5,060,000 - Encumbered at: 955,458,343

So do you honestly think that GL or did I simply Maximize my strat for NW upgrading capability because I planned for it? Anyone could do the same and no SM are fine just where they are.

QBJohnnywas September 11 2010 4:09 PM EDT

I'm not so sure its necessary to keep on buying to keep up. I bought USD last year but have not bought any for a year now. I've pretty much maintained my position since then without touching a drop of the hard stuff....

Zenai September 11 2010 4:53 PM EDT

I'm not so sure its necessary to keep on buying to keep up.

This is why I said "Kind of Necessary."

Overall MPRs move up as ppl fight, Strats get stronger as a result of players completing plans or meeting goals. Now maintaining is nice if this is what you are looking to do and honestly with what I have now I am sure I could Maintain for quite a while. However, maintaining is not what I want to do. I want to compete and move up and in order to do this it costs in one way or another no matter what. CBD doesn't just land in your account so you have to find a way to get it.

Right now there is 3 Main ways to get CBD in Quantity quickly:

1) Sell Items/Chars
2) Buy it with Services(Forging, Tat Leveling....etc.)
3) Buy it with USD

The Not so Quick ways to get it:

1) Be very Patient and fight normally and save it.
2) Long term Payplans
3) Long Term, low turnaround services.

So bottom line it is indeed up to the perspective of what you want, plan and expect out of yourself and your char.

QBJohnnywas September 11 2010 5:08 PM EDT

I get what you're saying Z and I'm actually in agreement with you.

Having run a high networth char my biggest opponents aren't necessarily other tanks. Its tattoos and if you lower ENC therefore lowering potential weapon growth then you should probably slow tattoo growth. Those big tattoos are growing far faster than any weapon out there....

iBananco [Blue Army] September 11 2010 5:27 PM EDT

Net Worth: $367,901,884
Encumbered at: 582,433,479

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 5:35 PM EDT

So do you honestly think that GL or did I simply Maximize my strat for NW upgrading capability because I planned for it? Anyone could do the same and no SM are fine just where they are.

I don't understand your post Zen.

A Single Minion, traiing STR and using STR based gear is th ebest possible scenario for ENC.

You're showing that.

As writen, you're not limited by your ENC, but rather the cost it would take to reach it.

Exactly what I stated.

What's the point you're trying to make? STR and ToA are independant (bar the cost you put in to power level your tat) of NW, and when concentrated on a single minion make ENC a non issue.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] September 11 2010 5:35 PM EDT

What are forgers charging these days? If it still 70% of NW increase then you could be adding ~2.3 mil NW a week into your gear by stretching that 1.5 mil. Can non NCB characters add that much ENC in a weeks time?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 5:35 PM EDT

Not everyone is 5.5M MPR GL, it is quite easy to have 500M NW, and not a team able to support it.

Sure.

4 Enchanter teams would have a hell of a time with ENC.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 5:36 PM EDT

Can non NCB characters add that much ENC in a weeks time?

More, if you buy it. ;)

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 11 2010 5:36 PM EDT

Yes, i can add over 3 mil enc a week.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 5:37 PM EDT

LoL! I misread ENC for NW! :P

I fail! ;)

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 11 2010 5:38 PM EDT

However enchanters aren't really affected by enc.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 5:40 PM EDT

It also depends on if the 500Mil of gear is to go on one minion, or spread over 4.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] September 11 2010 5:46 PM EDT

ha Imagine how busted USD would be if you could buy more ENC in order to buy more NW :D

I think the only 4 minion team that wouldn't really have to worry about it would be some form of RoS team that is training haste and GS and just has big weapons on all the enchanters.

If you want to use DD and some good mage gear I think it might be a bit of a stretch. Even 10 million lvls of DD would only confer 75 mil ENC. Ouch. DBs are kind of a no-no in that scenerio.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 5:47 PM EDT

Having run a high networth char my biggest opponents aren't necessarily other tanks. Its tattoos and if you lower ENC therefore lowering potential weapon growth then you should probably slow tattoo growth. Those big tattoos are growing far faster than any weapon out there....

I've advocated that for as long as I can remember. ;)

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 11 2010 6:00 PM EDT

To answer what you're wondering GL, why I think it's too low right now. ENC should never hinder non-USD spenders, never IMHO (I'm sure other's disagree, but I don't care), right now however, it does. Granted, not too tons of people, or even the status quo, but once is too many in my eyes.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 6:07 PM EDT

I agree somewhat, in that I feel the introduction of ENC was to combat massive pumped NW from USD injections.

But I feel that was only half the reason for ENCs introduction.

The other portion was to limit the power of restarting NCBs, and the ability to load them up with Massive 'x' (no +) Weapons and armour and totally skew the levelling balance of power.

In this second option should effect someone, even if thier massive weapon was only built using in game cash.

Zenai September 11 2010 6:08 PM EDT

What's the point you're trying to make? STR and ToA are independent (bar the cost you put in to power level your tat) of NW, and when concentrated on a single minion make ENC a non issue.

The point is that SM are fine where they are as I stated before. They are restricted just as much if not done the exact same way as mine. Not every SM will want to follow my path/strat. In short leave them alone in this is what I am saying. Now 4 Minion Teams to me is a different story as I stated already I think they need a bit of a boost ENCwise.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 6:13 PM EDT

But the point Zen, is that a Single Tank (like yours), built with STR (which you will have on a Tank) and either a ToA and STR boosting gear, or a TSA and STR boosting gear (which you will have, because you're running a Tank) *isn't* limited by ENC.

Sure, a Single Mage might be, but as stated above, they don't really care too much about ENC.

So the point remains, that Single Minions aren't restricted by ENC.

Either they are a Tank and are so concentrated that ENC doesn't work for them, or they don't care about ENC, being a Mage or Junction Enchanter.

To be honest, what you did or how you ran your Archer wasn't anything special, but does highlight how ENC doesn't limit you (or anyone else who builds a single minion Tank). And that's not a personal jab at you mate.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 6:14 PM EDT

Now 4 Minion Teams to me is a different story as I stated already I think they need a bit of a boost ENCwise

Is anyone running a 4 minion Tank team, that hasn't used USD to inflate thier Weapons, that is currently restricted by thier ENC?

A said above, if ENC isn't restricting anyone, what point does it have?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 11 2010 6:15 PM EDT

Poseidon

Score 7,705,026
Score for T57 7,419,456
Power 7,244,466
MPR 5,304,739
Max Tattoo Level 15,812,663
Net Worth $257,078,510

Consistent top 10 char with the 48th highest NW in the game... Now tell me something... what would I be able to accomplish if I could max out my Enc on each of my minions... But I also feel the pain of not having dex add to my enc... it makes things much tougher when I want to add nw to my evasion minion just to take advantage of the Evasion/Dex link

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] September 11 2010 6:20 PM EDT

I guess what I am trying to say is that I am not limited by my enc except on one minion but I don't have the money to back it all up anyways. So i guess its not exactly all about how you throw money into the game but how it helps you when you do. Anyone could throw 500 mil into a cabasset for example... but it wouldn't be the wisest choice now would it?

Zenai September 11 2010 6:25 PM EDT

To be honest, what you did or how you ran your Archer wasn't anything special, but does highlight how ENC doesn't limit you (or anyone else who builds a single minion Tank). And that's not a personal jab at you mate.


Not taking it as a jab bro because it is true no changes to any weapon, item, spell, skill etc since I started this Char so yeah no so special. I get where you are coming from bro but the point still remains this, SM are fine where they are(Limited or not in your perspective), this is not so with the 4 Minion Teams(they need some ENC love in my Perspective).


My Perspective on Limitation for ENC for a SM: Even if it is higher there is still no way to max it out without emptying a bank account. Which no one in their right mind will do anyway. PR is the Mandated Balancing weight anyway and it hits SM just a bit harder than the rest of the Teams(as I feel it should be). Is ENC on SM Breaking the game? No. Is it causing a problem Codingwise? No. Is it even unbalancing anything in general? No. If it is not broken don't fix it. It's not hurting anything at all in any way whatsoever so why bother it at all? Since this is not harming anything or anyone in any way leave it alone.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 7:58 PM EDT

Even if it is higher there is still no way to max it out without emptying a bank account.

That's the point. You should be capped *by* it, not be unable to reach it.

Otherwise, it's not doing it's job.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 September 11 2010 8:14 PM EDT

Not really the discussion at hand, but I really dislike the mechanics of ENC and PR to begin with. A player shouldn't be forced not to use weapons/armor on a NCB simply because it will trash their PR whilst simultaneously conferring only 1% of actual usefulness of the weapon because of ENC (does ENC stop at 99%?)

A much more sensible mechanic would function something like MTL does, you get a max weapon NW and a max armor NW, anything over this gets scaled similarly to how a tattoo gets scaled. This makes a lot more sense to me than what we have now, which necessitates one of two things, either buying "startup" gear until you have the MPR to use your real equipment, or running a non-NW dependent strategy until you hit some magical MPR where you can maybe equip a single weapon.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 11 2010 8:17 PM EDT

A much more user friendly system.

But then some folk like the 'tiered' structure, common to RPGs, and having to level up to a high enough MPR to use your gear.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] September 11 2010 8:26 PM EDT

Leveling to a tier may be a similar feature to RPG's, but CB has no 'lvl 99'

I think that is a good thing. However, because there is no cap on NW or mpr then putting limitations in place will only be a band aid solution until characters grow another few million mpr and then we are back where we started.

I like Slayers suggestion, which has been brought up many times over the past few years.

Zenai September 11 2010 8:48 PM EDT

I like Slayers suggestion, which has been brought up many times over the past few years.


Here here! This is a superior mechanic. CB may be an RPG but it is a never ending one. Because of this a few things should be different.

QBOddBird September 11 2010 8:58 PM EDT

+1 to the argument for a more forgiving NW scaling cap.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 11 2010 9:14 PM EDT

but I really dislike the mechanics of ENC and PR to begin with. A player shouldn't be forced not to use weapons/armor on a NCB simply because it will trash their PR whilst simultaneously conferring only 1% of actual usefulness of the weapon because of ENC (does ENC stop at 99%?)

Oh how nov and I have said that over and over.

Zenai September 11 2010 9:22 PM EDT

This should be added to the 100 Papercuts Project Thread

QBOddBird September 11 2010 9:53 PM EDT

Eh....I see this as less of a "useability" and more of a "gameplay alteration" issue. I see this more as a gameplay suggestion, rather than a papercut, and thus worthy of its own thread. :)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 11 2010 10:58 PM EDT

i too like the scalable nw and suggested such a mechanic before enc was introduced. we have to assume that jon had a good reason for ignoring those suggestion and going with what he did.

either way, it would still be restrictive or else it would not be doing its job and thus we would likely still have complaints regarding it.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 11 2010 11:00 PM EDT

A new store, called the magic sealer. At maybe 1% of NW cost you can choose to seal a piece of equipment to any size smaller. For all intents and purposes the item behaves as if it were the shrunken version. You can unseal an item at any time by going back to the magic sealer and unsealing it to revert it back to its original NW.

QBOddBird September 11 2010 11:04 PM EDT

It would certainly work better with the current NCB bonus.

As is, veterans who want to start over a team have to essentially rent out / purchase baby gear just to run their strat properly from the start. Being able to continue to use your old items at a reduced effectiveness seems to fit in with the idea behind the NCB far better than the current encumbrance method.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 11 2010 11:15 PM EDT

Heh, funnily enough that would be a nerf to enchanters.

Zenai September 11 2010 11:20 PM EDT

Eh....I see this as less of a "useability" and more of a "gameplay alteration" issue. I see this more as a gameplay suggestion, rather than a papercut, and thus worthy of its own thread :-)

I guess you could look at it from that standpoint. To me it is a useability issue. The mechanics for the transition is already there so I really do not think that much coding would need to be done more of a cut and paste and then some fine tuning. Neither here nor there the idea was to put it in an area that would be sure to be seen and read by the people currently doing the coding.


A new store, called the magic sealer. At maybe 1% of NW cost you can choose to seal a piece of equipment to any size smaller. For all intents and purposes the item behaves as if it were the shrunken version. You can unseal an item at any time by going back to the magic sealer and unsealing it to revert it back to its original NW.


I remember this idea Nat (It's a good one)but honestly I think if we had a growing Max Weapon/Armor Level that was a parallel to Max Tat Level then this would be a much better solution.

AdminNightStrike September 12 2010 12:43 AM EDT

Slayer - tattoos aren't scaled. They are cut off.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 September 12 2010 12:44 AM EDT

Same effect

AdminNightStrike September 12 2010 12:46 AM EDT

Scaling implies a gradually diminishing effect per level the more above the max you are (like AMF when AMF is greater than DD level).

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 September 12 2010 12:48 AM EDT

Ah, well I meant the other thing then :)

Wraithlin September 12 2010 12:55 AM EDT

It would be nice if when you made a new character you could actually use all the gear you got for it at a reasonable time.

It's really annoying that you can take all that time getting good gear, then you make a new NCB to try to get higher than you did before, and you have to be gearless for a month, then wear 1 piece of gear for another month, finally toss on 2 more halfway through...

If items were just cutoff like tattoos were, I think this game would be alot smoother and make it more likely for new people to stick with it once again. Since there is just around a 0% chance that a NUB will thier last character and they will need a NCB to get cloes to the top and competitive, it would be nice if the NCB wasn't so painful for them to try to run.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 12:45 PM EDT

trying to get it to work like mtl would be a nightmare though i would think. how would it decide which net worth to cut back and by how much is just the tip of the iceberg.

Zenai September 12 2010 1:09 PM EDT

trying to get it to work like mtl would be a nightmare though i would think. how would it decide which net wort how much is just the tip of the iceberg.


MTL Works from VPR no? Well What's to Stop MWL and MAL from running off the same thing? I mean honestly that would be the best way to regulate it. Instead of Coding some kind of super Stat or something just use what we already have that is fair to all. Overall I would think this to be a stellar way to change/regulate things.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 1:12 PM EDT

that isn't the difficult part, how much to allocate to ranged vs. melee, how much to damage vs. pth, are all armor slots treated equally? those are some of the big issues i see.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 1:13 PM EDT

also, are weapon allowance and armor allowance treated equally as well?

Zenai September 12 2010 1:28 PM EDT

In MAL I can see it being easy too regulate and implemt in one smooth addition.
With MWL I can see it Separated into Ranged and Melee.

I can also see all three being implemented a bitb differently.

In terms of NW

MAL : 75% more MTL
MWL: 50% more MTL (For Melee and Ranged)

The Numbers honestly are abitrary and could be subject to much more or less allowable NW. This is nothing more than a though for something that might work nothing more.

Zenai September 12 2010 1:29 PM EDT

Should read: more than MTL*

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 1:33 PM EDT

run me some numbers please and compare it to your current enc limit perhaps? you can use yourself for the example.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 1:37 PM EDT

i can see your mtl, so we are talking about 25m allowance for melee, 25m for ranged and 30m for armor?

what is your current encumbered at level?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 12 2010 1:41 PM EDT

One thing with basing it off of MTL, is that it's the same regardless of minion count and build.

Mages get the same Maximum Weapon Level as Tanks, and 4 Minion Tank Teams get the same as Single.

A MWL would need to taek both minion count, and minion build into account. Something the MTL doesn't.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 1:53 PM EDT

and let's say your ranged weapon was worth 50m, how would it be affected if your mwl was 25m?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 12 2010 1:58 PM EDT

I assume it would work like you had 25M NW instead.

The easiest way to do this would be to keep the proportion of NW you have in X and + the same.

So if you had a 50M Bow with 25% of it's NW in X and 75% in +, it would scale down to a Bow with 25M NW, 25% of that in X and 75% of that in +.

Simples. ;)

Zenai September 12 2010 2:01 PM EDT

Dudemus: No "More than" MTL in terms of NW.

Per instance my MTL is just over 16 Mil before my naming Bonus.
My Tat is worth. 280 Mil.

So for:

MWL(50% More than MTL) it would be 280+140 = 420 Mil for Melee and Ranged Separately
MAL(75% More than MTL) it would be 280+210 = 490 Mil

GL: Good point. Maybe a 5 or 10% Drop per Minion added.


As I said before the numbers are arbitrary but the idea is what I am looking at.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 2:02 PM EDT

the cost of the pth can often be quite high though, so how would it deal with partial values. let's say we only needed 100k nw taken off but it pulls off one pth worth 1m?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 12 2010 2:02 PM EDT

Tough. ;)

swaggpy September 12 2010 2:07 PM EDT

I would be using a tank strategy right now instead of enchanters if I could fit my weapons onto my NCB.
If ENC was implemented to limit the effect of USD on the game, why can't I use gear that I worked hard for and bought without USD on a NCB?

Zenai September 12 2010 2:08 PM EDT

GL: Agreed. It would be by a NW Value so in short Tough it would be cut off until allowed by MWL/MAL Just like MTL.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 2:12 PM EDT

zen, what is your encumbered at number now please?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 12 2010 2:14 PM EDT

If ENC was implemented to limit the effect of USD on the game, why can't I use gear that I worked hard for and bought without USD on a NCB?

As I said above I feel that was only 50% of the reason ENC ws introduced.

It was also to preserve balance to restarting NCB teams. So you couldn't spend a couple of months making a x10,000 +0 weapon and strap that on to a new NCB Tank and pwn everyone.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 2:14 PM EDT

and you guys don't see the difficulty in writing a formula that looks at one mal number and then tries to start taking off nw on multiple armor slots until it falls below that level? would this also be calculated before each battle to see if the minion has grown enough or would it be done at cache flush?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 12 2010 2:17 PM EDT

It would be just the same as other calcs in the game mate.

Take NW. Record percentage of total in X and in +. Adjust. Find the new X/+ at adjusted level. Profit. ;)

I'm sure things like Junction or DB-Evasion/ToA PTH stacking do something similair.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 2:18 PM EDT

the weapon would be easier, my question was in regards to max armor level and the multiple items formula.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 2:23 PM EDT

i guess you could just have it look at the most expensive upgrade, take that one off and then check again and repeat. once again though if you have a big corn upgrade that could take much more off than needed.

what about the calculations themselves, they would have to be per fight as if they were at cache flush you could just unequip at night and then re-equip in the morning. how would these per fight calculations affect game performance?

Zenai September 12 2010 2:27 PM EDT

I have the #2 Strength in the Game on my Minion

5,060,000 Mil Str allows me -Encumbered at: 474,644,268

With:
+13 AoM(26% Str Added), and
+30 BoM(30% Str Added)

Strength: 8,096,000 / 5,060,000 -Encumbered at: 566,018,234

With:

With the # 1 ToA(Tat) in the game (15.4 Mil Currently)

I get: Strength: 20,951,769 / 5,060,000 -Encumbered at: 955,458,343

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 2:46 PM EDT

i also think that if this is feasible, it would have to be based on trained xp per minion. i don't see it as serving its purpose if it can allow a new, low-xp minion to be purchased and all hp trained on it and it being allowed to use a full set of wall gear.

i think we have to look at jon's original intent here. the fact that he chose enc being limited by xp trained in certain spells would lead me to believe that an idea based on mtl probably won't fly. even basing it off of total xp trained per minion is kinda pushing things compared to his model.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 12 2010 3:00 PM EDT

Indeed.

The easiest change would be to keep ENC generated how it is, but have it as a MTL like scale back, and not a penalty for exceeding it.

But then that would also lower the tiny bit of increase EC got, by allowing you to reduce an opponents ENC and potentially reduce thier AC and other stuff.

Zenai September 12 2010 3:04 PM EDT

i also think that if this is feasible, it would have to be based on trained xp per minion. i don't see it as serving its purpose if allow a new, low-xp minion to be purchased and all hp trained on it and it being allowed to use a full set of wall gear

Umm not to jab at you but have you paid attention here bro? It would work exactly like MTL. Meaning this you can wear whatever but it will only function @ what the Max Level dictates ie its full functionality will only be reached once your level goes over the NW value of the items in question.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 3:08 PM EDT

are you paying attention? mtl existed when jon set encumbrance up. mtl is team based not character based. he chose to go character based for encumbrance. if he chose to make it more complex rather than going for the simplest solution don't you think he had a reason?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 3:10 PM EDT

unless i misunderstood and the numbers shown above were per team, which just makes it all the more difficult to divvy up how much comes off of each item.

so were you saying that each minion would get the same mal & mwl or it is a team based mal & mwl?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 12 2010 3:14 PM EDT

Simplest solution. A magic Sealing store. It makes everyone happy and even serves as a cash sink plus no additional drain on the server.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 3:17 PM EDT

aye nat, i am beginning to think that is the only way this could work.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 3:30 PM EDT

unless we create a unified theory here and using the idea in the random drop thread create something called blacksmith tokens.

they wouldn't be transferable and you couldn't sell them to the store. they will only be taken by the bs. they would be given out as random drops, if chosen by the user as their drop choice as well as an option when disenchanting an item (at full cost of the original upgrade).

we could then do away with salvage yards entirely. people wanting to downgrade could just do so and save the tokens to put back into the item later as their encumbrance allows.

Zenai September 12 2010 3:49 PM EDT

Sigh. Nevermind eveything I have said. I'm officially done with attempting to suggest anything without it being cut down. Seems no one in this game wants to try and make anything other than their own idea work. It's a shame really since there is some truly bright minds here that CAN make anything work.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] September 12 2010 4:34 PM EDT

What about altering one of the existing skills?

Change Armor Proficiency to be a trained skill where you train it to some 1/X of that minions NW and it significantly increases their ENC levels (in addition to what it does now). Or they can only be ENC up to .X. Or something along those lines.

I know that doesn't do squat for helping tanks on multi minion teams, but it would help the mages out a little bit.

QBOddBird September 12 2010 4:42 PM EDT

I agree Nat, a magic sealing store would truly be the optimal solution here. Even for renters (example: I needed an Exbow at 50M NW maximum due to encumbrance) it would be ideal, as someone who has an item to rent out that is too large would be able to rent more if the renter could just seal it up/down to the ideal size.

Zenai September 12 2010 5:18 PM EDT

a magic sealing store would truly be the optimal solution here.

No it is not it would be a nice perk but farther from simple than you think. This would be a ton of coding since it would be from scratch whereas the other idea listed already has 75% of the Coding done. All needs to be done is 25% of the Coding and then some fine tuning. Faster and Much more Simple.


Not as much of a drain on the Server? Please this is a Textbased game it bearly uses 40-50% of it's capability at most during the worst of times. Besides have you thought that maybe this idea would put just as much imagined strain on the system as the previous idea? I mean honestly you would have to seal and maintain something....that is resources ie no different than MWL or MAL.

QBOddBird September 12 2010 5:20 PM EDT

I said optimal solution, not easiest solution to implement.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 12 2010 5:20 PM EDT

What about altering one of the existing skills?

Nie idea! Instead ofbeing one cost, it would give it a reaosn to actually train.

But the ENC gained from it would have to be a little larger than the natural ENC you gain from trianing a skill. ;)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 5:24 PM EDT

calculations that have to be performed for each fight are what causes the strain that we are referring to here. ; )

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] September 12 2010 5:45 PM EDT

That makes more sense then another calculation actually. Just have it grant 500 ENC per lvl or something like that :)

Zenai September 12 2010 5:47 PM EDT

I said optimal solution, not easiest solution to implement.

It most certainly will not be optimal per player. You would have to constantly Seal and Unseal to stay at Optimal effectiveness of Weapons and Armor. Not bad for a Cash Sink but terrible for Optimal Results per char since it requires a ton of maintenance. With the other Idea it does it on it's own now that is Optimal.


calculations that have to be performed for each fight are what causes the strain that we are referring to here. ; )


I got that already Dudemus what I think you are not getting is that the same thing would be happening with a "Sealed" Item. Maintaining a Sealed Item is something that would STILL drain resources as it would STILL be on a fight by fight basis. I do believe I also said that we are definitely NOT using anywhere near our potential for the Server so honestly what's the problem here again?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 5:57 PM EDT

how would a sealed item need a per fight calculation any more than a non-sealed weapon?

when the seal is applied it just becomes a smaller weapon, thus changing nothing in the per fight calculations.

the other idea would entail multiple calculations being added to the existing fight calculations. these aren't simple calculations either. we have quite a few fights per day and this extra load on the server would likely slow down fighting.

i try to be very patient with you zen but your whole tone makes it very hard to try to help you understand. if nat agrees that there would likely be a degradation given the calculations i am left wondering why you cannot see that.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 12 2010 6:13 PM EDT

Sealing solves none of the underlying problems pertinent to the past of this thread. The only one it gets close to solving is for NCB chars with large armor/weapons. What about non NCBs?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 12 2010 6:15 PM EDT

And any of the above solutions Zen liked would not, definitely not, put more stress on the system. It is an easy O(n) solution.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 6:29 PM EDT

once you click fight it will have to calculate for each minion what the melee, ranged and armor allowance as three separate calculations. then it will have to compare those for each minions items. if it is over the allowance for a weapon, it will have to lower either the x or the + and then check again until it lowers it enough times for each weapon on each minion. this is the simple one.

for armor it will have to calculate for each minion what the armor allowance is. it will then have to look at each item and determine the largest + and remove that. then it will repeat until below level.

how can this occur without increasing the load on the server?

Zenai September 12 2010 6:31 PM EDT

when the seal is applied it just becomes a smaller weapon, thus changing nothing in the per fight calculations.

Yesb and No Dudemus. The system will still have to do a check on a fight by fight basis....a calculation if you will that will have one side tell another side of the system the Weapon/Amor is this size but functions at that size. In other words no differently than the previous idea.

Btw just because Nat says something, although I do take it under advisement, doesn't make it law. Aside from this Dudemus my tone is mine whether you like it or not I'm still going to use it. I have the right to disagree with you and anyone else I dammed well choose just like everyone else.

Now to hit the situation on the head even a little more strain on the system will not kill it or even hurt it so stop acting like it would. Once again CB is a Textbased game it most certainly doesn't use that much of the Servers Resources. This current Idea is good but the other idea is most certainly better overall which is what I also told Nat in the very beginning not because I'm being stubborn but because it is from start to finish.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 6:40 PM EDT

nat and ns have a much better idea of the load the server can handle than anyone. nat also has a better grip on the inner workings of this game than i think jon or ns does.

i trust her opinion greatly! ; )

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 12 2010 6:46 PM EDT

Well, as much as I trust Nat, I trust math more. Unless NS comes out and says there are no n^2 big Os running at a fight click, then what I said is right.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 12 2010 6:48 PM EDT

If Zen liked this idea:

once you click fight it will have to calculate for each minion what the melee, ranged and armor allowance as three separate calculations. then it will have to compare those for each minions items. if it is over the allowance for a weapon, it will have to lower either the x or the + and then check again until it lowers it enough times for each weapon on each minion. this is the simple one.for armor it will have to calculate for each minion what the armor allowance is. it will then have to look at each item and determine the largest + and remove that. then it will repeat until below level.

then I take back that part of my earlier statement. I was simply saying that the weighted allowance idea would be simple, which it is. I could right the code to make it O(n).

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 6:48 PM EDT

Yesb and No Dudemus. The system will still have to do a check on a fight by fight basis....a calculation if you will that will have one side tell another side of the system the Weapon/Amor is this size but functions at that size. In other words no differently than the previous idea.

but the game is already looking at items and using their level. the sealing would just make an item a smaller level. so there is no additional calculations added this way.

the other way adds quite a few additional calculations that aren't happening now per fight. how many fights do we get each day?

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 12 2010 6:50 PM EDT

if statements are to small to affect load times dude, unless you are running loops within the for statement.

Minnakht September 12 2010 6:50 PM EDT

It seems that both MAL/MWL and sealing go together.

You have a MWL and a MAL that are adjusted to minion number/size/type. (This solves the problems about Single minions having too much encumbrance and multi-minion teams not having enough)

You _cannot_ go over the MWL or MAL.

However, if your items are too big, you can seal them!
(This solves the problem of having to buy small items to use on your new character)

Minnakht September 12 2010 6:52 PM EDT

This also solves the server load problem.

The equip page simply doesn't let you go over the MAL/MWL.

No calculations on the server needed.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 12 2010 6:52 PM EDT

Oh yeah this reminds me, we used to have WA for weapons, I don't think it taxed the servers too much, seeing as it was displayed on the equip page XD. I definitely stand behind my previous statement now ;P.

Zenai September 12 2010 6:58 PM EDT

nat and ns have a much better idea of the load the server can handle than anyone. nat also has a better grip on the inner workings of this game than i think jon or ns does.

Not a chance, Jon wrote this game noone not even NS knows it better period(no offense intnded NS). I trust Nat's opinion, I take a lot of what she says under advisement but I most certainly do not use it as a fact. This is what you are trying to do Dudemus and in the long run that is very wrong. Nat no matter how knowledgeable is stil subject to being fallable.


Now on a case by case basis yes the Idea I back would put a little more strain on the Servers Resources but not by that much.

Take this into account:

1) Both would have the Same Calculations to Perform.
2) One allows for less Resources to be used(Much more player Mainenance and is not Optimal for player use)
3) The Other Ida uses more Resources(No Player Maintenance, Always Optimal for Player use)

There is only one difference between the 2 Ideas. One would Always be on at all times the other would be a case by case basis. How they wok would essentilly b exactly the same in implementation it doesn't take a mathematician to see that or even prove it.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 7:01 PM EDT

i think we have around 50k battles on any given day average. the weapon allowance was one calculation. what gl and zenai were suggesting above would be multiple calculations until the item fit. it could be one, or it could be several thousand, depending on how large the items are in relation to the allowance.

this is before we even bring up the fact that it is team based instead of minion based as jon made the current system. i liked the idea yesterday, until i thought about the fact that there are just too many variables and calculations due to that and if they aren't done per fight then the system could be gamed.

Zenai September 12 2010 7:02 PM EDT

Oh yeah this reminds me, we used to have WA for weapons, I don't think it taxed the servers too much, seeing as it was displayed on the equip page XD. I definitely stand behind my previous statement now ;P.

Indeed we did AND remember that we had a Major Server Upgrade since then :-)

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 12 2010 7:04 PM EDT

Ok, well to be fair... I didn't read the last 1/4 of slayer's post, and it wasn't what I thought it was. So, that would probably be like an nlog(n) algorithm, and *STILL* probably would affect server time. But, what I had hoped for was something exactly like WA, except for weapons and armor XD <--- that would be very easy to implement and O(n).

Zenai September 12 2010 7:05 PM EDT

this is before we even bring up the fact that it is team based instead of minion based as jon made the current system. i liked the idea yesterday, until i thought about the fact that there are just too many variables and calculations due to that and if they aren't done per fight then the system could be gamed.

No not really bro you are making it far more complicated than it truly is. Its a simple set of Calculations. Is it at X Level NW? 1/0 Calculation over.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 7:07 PM EDT

1) Both would have the Same Calculations to Perform.

nat's idea takes no more calculations, per fight, than the current system.

your idea, in the worst case scenario, would take thousands of cycles of calculations just for a large weapon. how can you not see this?

what is the damage mod on your bow, add that to the + mod. that is approximately the worst case scenario for number of calculations!

the system would look at your bow and see that it is too large, it would then have to calculate the largest cost upgrade on the item and remove that upgrade value and step the item down one. then it would do it all over again until it is low enough for a new character.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 7:08 PM EDT

[6x60000] (+160)

that would entail around 60k calculations per fight, in the worst case scenario.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 12 2010 7:18 PM EDT

Why?

You adjust once, like you do for Evasion/DB stacking, Junction, or Wepon +/ToA PTH stacking.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 12 2010 7:20 PM EDT

Nope, log(n) dudemus, we would do a binary search duhh... XD

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 12 2010 7:22 PM EDT

searching GL, in order to search for the list you'd have to search the entire list in worst case scenario. However, we'd only have to search a sorted list, so we could try the middle, did we over shoot or undershoot? Then go from there.

Zenai September 12 2010 7:22 PM EDT

Dudemus: Seriously man you are making it far more complicated than what it is. Now if you want to bring all this extra in fine just make the Formula for calculating it a little better. Is it X Level NW on (X)/(+)? 1/0 NW level Compaired on (X) and (+) will function as X. There not as hard as you are making it out to be especially since the basics of this formula is already implemented in MTL.

Wraithlin September 12 2010 7:27 PM EDT

You guys are right, if they were actually finding the largest weapon you could have based off checking the values and reducing it etc...that would be very intensive on the server.

If instead of doing that, the calculation was done during the train minion button or equip weapon button. Which is when it should go. Then you don't have to worry about this server load.

One check on gear as you equip or train your minions will not be bad at all.

Trying to do it during battles, just stuipd.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 12 2010 7:28 PM EDT

the system would look at your bow and see that it is too large, it would then have to calculate the largest cost upgrade on the item and remove that upgrade value and step the item down one. then it would do it all over again until it is low enough for a new character.

I disagree that would be the method.

All it would be is;

You have X NW. split a% & b%. X is too high, reduce to Y.

Y is split into a% and b%.

Then using the exact same way the game works out ow Evasion and PTH stacks, it would take a% of Y and turn it into a Weapon X value and b% of Y and turn it into the corresponding + value.

It's what already happens for Evasion, so where's the issue?

iBananco [Blue Army] September 12 2010 7:33 PM EDT

xcost = (x - 1) * costperx
+cost = nw - xcost - basenw
scale = nwcap/nw
newx = floor(scale * x)
new+ = floor(inverse+costfunction(scale * +cost))

QBOddBird September 12 2010 7:33 PM EDT

But the problem when doing that with equipment, Wraithlin, is that you can unequip/train/re-equip. If it calculates when you train, then it will say "Oh, no weapon, everything fits perfectly!" and then you can re-equip and go off fighting with an oversized weapon.

Calculating upon any equipment changes would be a great idea. That way you cannot exploit this glitch. So far, I don't really see why this would need to be done per-fight rather than per-training.

Nonetheless, in order to do so it would still be using the server to automatically deduce your appropriate weapon size/ratio to fit it under a cap; I would far prefer the ability to seal the weapon. What if my weapon is x10000, +120, and I want to keep all the X at the cost of the +?

If it were automatically deduced by the server as per Z's suggestion, this would be impossible; it would simply pull NW from the X until this exceeded the NW of the next + down, and then it would pull one of those. Being able to seal your weapon to a desirable ratio is far more user-friendly and useful, and would not require the server to do these calculations, no matter when you set them to be performed.

For those complaining about having to unseal and re-seal - how often do you upgrade, every time you get another 8k ENC available? It's silly to think you would want to upgrade every single time you could add a single extra X.

Zenai September 12 2010 7:36 PM EDT

If instead of doing that, the calculation was done during the train minion button or equip weapon button. Which is when it should go. Then you don't have to worry about this server load.

See what happens when you think about it from a different perspective? Thanks Wraithlin for coming up with a good tweak/suggestion for making the idea better.

Then using the exact same way the game works out ow Evasion and PTH stacks, it would take a% of Y and turn it into a Weapon X value and b% of Y and turn it into the corresponding + value. It's what already happens for Evasion, so where's the issue?

Thanks for pointing that out bro!

JS: Tis greek to me but that is awesome! From the looks of it this is the Formulas for changing everything to work @ MWL/MAL :-)

Zenai September 12 2010 7:44 PM EDT

If it were automatically deduced by the server as per Z's suggestion

Not my suggestion I am just backing it. It is most certainly not impossible OB that is just being dramatic.

If it is set up to do the Checks NWwise per Stat Type when equipping then it is most certainly possible to have a MWL/MAL that wouldn't kill the servers resources as you and dudemus keep attempting to say. This wouldn't be any different than the Sealing process now. As far as the upgrades OB some actually do that. I did it when I ran my NCB, every X and + I got made the difference when I needed it. This should be no less true of others in a N*B.

QBOddBird September 12 2010 7:46 PM EDT

You did not understand my post.

I said via that suggestion, it would be impossible to customize the ratio of your weapon's X-to-PTH, whereas in sealing you could choose how much X or + to seal off in order to attain a desired NW.

QBOddBird September 12 2010 7:47 PM EDT

If it is set up to do the Checks NWwise per Stat Type when equipping then it is most certainly possible to have a MWL/MAL that wouldn't kill the servers resources as you and dudemus keep attempting to say.

Where did I say that? Do you *ever* read my posts, or do you always just shoot off a quick one as soon as you spot my name in the thread?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 12 2010 7:48 PM EDT

You can customise it OB.

By the way you oriignally upgraded it.

Leave + at zero and have 100% of your NW into X, and you'll still have a + of zero. ;)

QBOddBird September 12 2010 7:49 PM EDT

That's not customizing your weapon, that's having a weapon that conveniently fits a desirable format. I thought we were talking about finding a way to limit a weapon that was already owned?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 12 2010 8:02 PM EDT

The point is OB, your existing weapon is already customisted to how you want it.

You customise how you build it, how much cash you stick where.

Zenai September 12 2010 8:08 PM EDT

Where did I say that? Do you *ever* read my posts, or do you always just shoot off a quick one as soon as you spot my name in the thread?

Yes I read your Posts. No I do not spout off a quick one every time I see your name in a thread quit being sensitive. I was on my phone and have to copy/paste a lot since typing in that small window sucks. You being referred to in that sentence was a typo.


Back to at hand discussion.

This can be made to work hand in hand with Sealing as Arfbargle suggested. The Checks can happen on the Equipping Screen no need to do it per Fight so in essence this can be just like a constantly on Growing version of Sealing.

One Major Check on the Equipping Screen per equipped Item so that no Gaming can happen. Separate the MWL into 2 Sections Melee and Ranged. Then by 2 More Sections under Melee/Ranged X and +. Now we have a True MWL. Implement MAL would be far more easy and the Check once again on the Equip Screen. Just Setting up the Numbers would be the Kicker. I dumped my thoughts for that on here already but as I said they are arbitrary.

Now if you wanted to Seal an Item since you did not want to have so much PR then ok fine why not? As I said it is a good suggestion and honestly I think it should be implemented just not in place of the one I am backing.

QBOddBird September 12 2010 8:08 PM EDT

Then in that case, why not simply "customize" your weapon below your encumbrance? After all, it's about how much cash you stick in it!

I'm saying if I'm shrinking down from a x5000 +100 weapon, I'd rather have the option between x1000 and +75, x2500 and +50, or x5000 and +0 than have the system automatically do it for me. Down low, I don't necessarily want any PTH because there is little in the way of DBs/Evasion/etc and the game is mostly DX based; with my weapon shrunk automatically I would not be able to decide this.

I thought we were going to use our old weapons under this system? Not have to upgrade new ones, or rent someone else's, or resort to other methodology to attain our desired result when we already own what we need?

Does everyone really think it is that much more important for their idea to be "right" than for us to find the most desirable/useful/usable solution?

Or am I misunderstanding, and it is not desirable to be able to choose your weapon's stats?

Zenai September 12 2010 8:11 PM EDT

I'm thinking that if Sealing were to be done then maybe in 2 Sections as well....x and + so that we could have the best of both worlds.

QBOddBird September 12 2010 8:12 PM EDT

quit being sensitive

lol

Sigh. Nevermind eveything I have said. I'm officially done with attempting to suggest anything without it being cut down.

Back on track, if you truly did read my post as you claim, I agreed with the thought that checking upon equipping was the best possible method. I even might have said

Calculating upon any equipment changes would be a great idea.

But I do not see why having both systems would be superior. Why would you implement a second system to reduce weapons when you already have a system in place to reduce weapons? It seems redundant.

Zenai September 12 2010 8:15 PM EDT

But I do not see why having both systems would be superior. Why would you implement a second system to reduce weapons when you already have a system in place to reduce weapons? It seems redundant.

Because of this OB.

I'm saying if I'm shrinking down from a x5000 +100 weapon, I'd rather have the option between x1000 and +75, x2500 and +50, or x5000 and +0 than have the system automatically do it for me. Down low, I don't necessarily want any PTH because there is little in the way of DBs/Evasion/etc and the game is mostly DX based; with my weapon shrunk automatically I would not be able to decide this.


If the System Does on and I can do the Other then I get everything I need when I need it.

Zenai September 12 2010 8:16 PM EDT

Also let's not forget MAL as well...this wouldn't just be for Weapons and honestly some would like to have the choice of one or the other and or a mix thereof.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 12 2010 8:18 PM EDT

There are certain armors that won't work. Namely AoI and AoJ. Then are non upgradeable/downgradable. What happens when you equip one and you don't have the MAL for it? It can't be shrunk so I guess it would just be effectively unequipped by the system for battle.

I personally think that the enc we currently have is a pretty good system. It doesn't say your weapons and armor are going to be smaller. It says that you can wear them but that minion will face certain penalties. A MAL/MWL takes away even more from controlling the setup of your character.

Often times you don't want to shrink all your equipment. Your Corns and all the junction gear you wouldn't want shrunken. The penalties on the enchanter and junction minion are worth the benefit of the larger items.

Another thing and this is mainly about weapons, but How would the whole MAL/MWL affect PR. If it doesn't then no one would want to use their own equipment anyways because the PR would be way too high to deal with effectively.

QBOddBird September 12 2010 8:20 PM EDT

No, I mean...if you've already sealed your weapon to a smaller size, then the 2nd system is no longer in place. You'd have to have an unsealed weapon in order to use the 2nd system.

I can see the approach, though, of keeping your weapon unsealed so that the 2nd system catches it and you can just fight without ever having to bother with your weapon at all. A buffer, if you will. Zero customization, but zero effort. :)

QBOddBird September 12 2010 8:21 PM EDT

Ahhh, good point Nat - I had narrowed my thoughts to terms of weaponry, but you have to consider armor, and particularly armor that is not upgradeable as you mentioned. That's what I get for focusing in on one single point so closely.

Zenai September 12 2010 8:29 PM EDT

There are certain armors that won't work. Namely AoI and AoJ. Then are non upgradeable/downgradable.

Write in an Exception for these Items.

A MAL/MWL takes away even more from controlling the setup of your character.

I did not think of it from that standpoint but at the same time this could also add in more strategy so I think it balances that aspect out.

Another thing and this is mainly about weapons, but How would the whole MAL/MWL affect PR.

Honestly for Armor and Weapons this Change would Take out that aspect of PR it would be on your Chars MPR completely. No Penalties would come from Weapons/armor anymore if you think about it that is not a bad trade off. Lowering the affects of PR over weapons might be a good thing.


No, I mean...if you've already sealed your weapon to a smaller size, then the 2nd system is no longer in place. You'd have to have an unsealed weapon in order to use the 2nd system.

Not Really if Sealing were done in 2 Sections...X and + then both Systems could be simultaneously used.

Example: I Seal the + on my Weapon @ 75 but leave the X unsealed and use my MWL. Best of both Worlds.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] September 12 2010 8:33 PM EDT

I think we are starting to talk about 2 very different things here.

1. ENC being designed to limit how much USD some one can shovel into their team.

2. ENC limiting smaller/fresh/growing NCBs from using existing high NW equipment.

I'm not sure if the two can both be addressed with one solution. If something fixes 1 then how can we scale it back for 2? I think sealing equipment is the closest suggestion that has been come up with thus far.

Zenai September 12 2010 8:37 PM EDT

I think sealing equipment is the closest suggestion that has been come up with thus far.

Sealing a Weapon will not stop #1, it would help #2 though.

MWL/MAL could effectively handle both, Sealing would then be a Perk.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 12 2010 8:40 PM EDT

ENC already does #1

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 8:42 PM EDT

with melee, ranged and armor even if you could get the calculations down to ten additional ones per fight then that is still 10 * 50,000 = 500,000 more calculations per day. i seriously doubt it could be limited to that ten though.

we also like to dream of one day increasing our population again so that would need to be taken into account.

as for the armor issues, that was some of the "too many variable" i was speaking of. granted though that if you have armor pieces you really need, you can unequip all others. once again though that is removing choices.

i liked the idea yesterday when i first read it. i just don't see any feasible way it can be implemented without causing many more problems than it solves.

even if you can get past the implementation, there are then balance issues that the current system addresses and this one doesn't. one example is that you could buy a cheap minion up top and with no xp (not possible but used for example) fully outfit with a 450 ac wall set.

QBOddBird September 12 2010 8:42 PM EDT

Sealing a Weapon will not stop #1, it would help #2 though. MWL/MAL could effectively handle both, Sealing would then be a Perk.

Please explain, as I'm only seeing a blanket statement here without supporting evidence.

Sealing weapons = allowing you to use a pre-existing weapon under your encumbrance, which is the USD limiting factor; your suggestion replaces encumbrance. In any event, all we're truly dealing with here is #2, as the discussion regarding #1 was how ENC (or MWAL or whatever you replace ENC with) should be titrated.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] September 12 2010 8:42 PM EDT

#3 ENC limiting 3-4minion non-USD teams.

Zenai September 12 2010 8:46 PM EDT

Please explain, as I'm only seeing a blanket statement here without supporting evidence.

Do you ever read *My* posts or do you just shoot off this statement whenever you see my name? Go back through the Thread and Read for crying out loud.

Zenai September 12 2010 8:50 PM EDT

ENC already does #1

Not really Nat as I can add in quite a bit more on my char via USD if I so chose to do so. This Idea would limit my ability to do so.

QBOddBird September 12 2010 8:54 PM EDT

LOL

You made a blanket statement without addressing exactly why sealing would not accomplish this.

This is particularly wrong because sealing DOES accomplish it. In fact, ENC already accomplishes it.

In fact, I even took the time to explain this to you in a very short summary.

I already Read your Posts in all Their periodically Capitalized Glory. Now, would You like to Explain your Statement, or Can I assume that You have No Explanation for Why the MAL/MWL accomplishes The desired Goals and the Sealing Proposal does Not?

Zenai September 12 2010 9:22 PM EDT

You made a blanket statement without addressing exactly why sealing would not accomplish this.

Of which you already knew exactly what I meant you are just being a Jerk Right Now.

This is particularly wrong because sealing DOES accomplish it. In fact, ENC already accomplishes it.

ENC doesn't which is why this thread was created in the first place. and no Sealing doesn't fully do it and you know you you just do not want to agree with me because you do not like me.

In fact, I even took the time to explain this to you in a very short summary.

As if I need it in the first place. Stop attempting to insult me...nah keep on going since I will return it in kind. Act like a grownup be treated like one, act like a Jerk and the same will happen.

I already Read your Posts in all Their periodically Capitalized Glory. Now, would You like to Explain your Statement, or Can I assume that You have No Explanation for Why the MAL/MWL accomplishes The desired Goals and the Sealing Proposal does Not?

1) Periodic Capitalization makes people read the statement the same as misplaces punctuation and run-on sentences. This was Not Created by me but by the same people that found that a word can be scrambled and as long as the first and last letter are in place it can be read. So whoopitty-freaking-do on what I do and how I type there is a reason for it and I do not have to justify it to you in anyway, shape, form or fashion.

2) Since you seem to be in a remedial state and cannot seem to absorb things I type since you have taken a disliking for me and have to act like a Jerk I will return the favor. I will repost everything here for your Reading pleasure:

Now on a case by case basis yes the Idea I back would put a little more strain on the Servers Resources but not by that much.

Take this into account:

1) Both would have the Same Calculations to Perform.
2) One allows for less Resources to be used(Much more player Maintenance and is not Optimal for player use)
3) The Other Ida uses more Resources(No Player Maintenance, Always Optimal for Player use)

There is only one difference between the 2 Ideas. One would Always be on at all times the other would be a case by case basis. How they wok would essentially b exactly the same in implementation it doesn't take a mathematician to see that or even prove it.

With This tweak from Wraithlin:

If instead of doing that, the calculation was done during the train minion button or equip weapon button. Which is when it should go. Then you don't have to worry about this server load.

It is Better than Sealing as it is ALWAYS on, can completely Limit USD Spenders like myself and (Here's the Kicker so pay close attention!) it's automated so that you don't have to lift a finger and with Wraithlin's tweak it cannot be gamed since it would be Checked and Balanced upon being equipped.


Bottom Line Sealing is a good Idea and I think it should be implemented but MWL/MAL from start to finish is a better idea since you can get truly Optimal results from it at ALL times. With Sealing you would not AND get this you have to do ALL of the work AND pay for it too.....what a crock!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 9:30 PM EDT

mtl changes without equipping or training and if someone were saving xp and not training wraithlin's method would hurt them. that is actually the first way i thought of doing it.

they could unequip and re-equip but that gets into the constant maintenance by user aspect.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 9:31 PM EDT

and you keep stating that both would have the same calculations to perform yet you admit that one would be a heavier load on the server. which is it?

Zenai September 12 2010 9:33 PM EDT

mtl changes without equipping or training and if someone were saving xp and not training wraithlin's method would hurt them. that is actually the first way i thought of doing it.

Then find a better way of implementing it without scrapping the idea. That's what get's me today, no one wants to find a way to fix the first idea it's always jump to the next one and the next one is usually theirs. You are much better at math than I am, how would YOU make this work dudemus?

Zenai September 12 2010 9:35 PM EDT

and you keep stating that both would have the same calculations to perform yet you admit that one would be a heavier load on the server. which is it?

Well dudemus they WOULD be the same calculations. The difference as I stated before is that one is on a Case by Case Basis(as the Item is Sealed and Used) While the other is Always on(MWL/MAL)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 9:38 PM EDT

i spent most of last night trying to come up with a way to make it work and i honestly can see none that wouldn't create more problems than it solves.

that is why i stated that after thinking much more about it i had to agree with nat.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 12 2010 9:38 PM EDT

1) Both would have the Same Calculations to Perform.
2) One allows for less Resources to be used(Much more player Maintenance and is not Optimal for player use)
3) The Other Ida uses more Resources(No Player Maintenance, Always Optimal for Player use)

None of these point are correct except for the fact that one does indeed require more player maintenance and the other doesn't.

In one you are just ghost disenchanting for much less cost with a caveat that it can revert back. The other recalculates every time something is equipped or trained and still isn't balanced with AoJ and AoI not to mention it needs to work when including base items in the setup.

If you mean optimal use as in being able to blindly throw on whatever equipment I can and have everything done for me that is true. With a sealing you can get far far more customization out of your setup. You can leave all your junction gear and enchanter gear unsealed. Not to mention things like the AoJ and AoI can still function down low.

I don't think reducing choices in the name of convenience is the way to go.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 9:41 PM EDT

they wouldn't be the same though. with sealing you would have a calculation at the time of sealing (not per fight) that would set the weapon as a lower nw version. after that the per fight calculations would be exactly as they are now, in fact no coding would have to be changed to the fight activation at all.

the difference is having fewer random calculations as items are sealed as opposed to increased per fight calculations added onto existing fight calculations 50,000 times a day.

QBOddBird September 12 2010 9:42 PM EDT

Knew what you meant? Z, if you did not tell me why sealing could not accomplish #1 and #2, how am I to know? Do you expect me to read minds? Quite frankly, I started being a jerk when you failed to answer the question in favor of a snarky retort.

ENC, in fact, DOES accomplish this goal! You appear to have misunderstood even the thread itself.

Does my Current ENC seem about right to eveyone? Too large? Too small?

This means the poster is, as I've already stated, asking how ENC should be titrated. ENC does what it should do, and the user would like to know if it should be larger or smaller, given community expenditure.

and no Sealing doesn't fully do it and you know you you just do not want to agree with me because you do not like me.

This is avoiding my question yet again. Let me state this in the clearest, simplest manner I possibly can:

I understand that you do not think Sealing fully does it. I want you to explain why. You have not done this. I want you to type it out, word for word, so that I can understand it instead of assuming that I know what the hell ever you are talking about.






There is only one difference between the 2 Ideas. One would Always be on at all times the other would be a case by case basis. How they wok would essentially b exactly the same in implementation it doesn't take a mathematician to see that or even prove it.

On the contrary, there are obvious differences between the two ideas. You've already stated that WWAL would automatically decide your gear's upgrade status for you, so that means it is not customizable. It has to make periodic checks when you equip gear, whereas Sealing is a once-done-deal. It replaces the Encumbrance concept entirely, whereas Sealing is a completely separate feature.


It is Better than Sealing as it is ALWAYS on, can completely Limit USD Spenders like myself and (Here's the Kicker so pay close attention!) it's automated so that you don't have to lift a finger and with Wraithlin's tweak it cannot be gamed since it would be Checked and Balanced upon being equipped.

OK, more for you to explain - you'll have a good chunk of typing to do if you actually address my post this time around! - how is it better for a feature to be constantly running, rather than sealing something once and then fighting without having to do constant checks?

I agree, it is automated, I totally understand that. Zero effort. But which is more important - being able to customize your strategy, or being able to avoid the click involved in doing so?

Bottom Line Sealing is a good Idea and I think it should be implemented but MWL/MAL from start to finish is a better idea since you can get truly Optimal results from it at ALL times. With Sealing you would not AND get this you have to do ALL of the work AND pay for it too.....what a crock!

You still haven't given a good explanation of why MWAL is a better idea, aside from the assertion that "results are optimal" and "more convenient," which is debatable.

What a crock that you'd have to pay any sort of fee for Sealing? In regards to game economics, we have few money sinks. This would be a good thing for the game, even if you don't like it as an individual player.

I also don't buy "oh god sealing would be extra effort!" as an argument. You change equipment to the state you'd like it, and if you want to alter that state, you can. This is analogous to complaining that the blacksmith causes extra effort because your upgrades aren't automatic.



And last but not least, Zenai, it isn't that I don't like you. I don't, but that is beside the point. I'm simply not willing to treat you with kid gloves when I wouldn't treat anyone else differently. As you once said here in this very thread:

Aside from this Dudemus my tone is mine whether you like it or not I'm still going to use it. I have the right to disagree with you and anyone else I dammed well choose just like everyone else.

You would do well to actually take your own advice for once, and understand that others have differing opinions and they are going to voice them. You might not like my tone, but I'm still going to use it. I have the right to disagree with you and call you out on fallacious arguments anytime I damned well choose, just like everyone else.

Zenai September 12 2010 9:47 PM EDT

I don't think reducing choices in the name of convenience is the way to go.


Perspective Nat. You see Choices going away, I see Strategy becoming more prevalent as a result. My points are correct Nat you just don't see it is all.

1) Both would have the Same Calculations to Perform.

To Seal an Item the Calculations for X and + must be performed and then as said item is used the exact same checks would be performed every time there is a fight or when it is equipped....in short the Calcs are the same.



2) One allows for less Resources to be used(Much more player Maintenance and is not Optimal for player use)

Well it wouldn't be since it would not Grow with the Char you would have to constantly Unseal and Reseal.

3) The Other Idea uses more Resources(No Player Maintenance, Always Optimal for Player use.)

Well maybe not on the + side of that equation, which Sealing would be better if it is too high, but on the X side it would always be optimal as it Grows with the Char.

Now as I also stated I think Sealing should be implemented side by side with MWL/MAL they would compliment each other.

Still though it doesn't matter as it is an Idea not actually in the mills for implementation so....meh.

QBOddBird September 12 2010 9:53 PM EDT

To Seal an Item the Calculations for X and + must be performed

Wha? Let's compare the checks for WMAL and Sealing.


Sealing: I set the X to a value I want manually, I set the + to a value I want manually.

Check: What's the NW?

Done.

MWAL: I equip a weapon larger than my WMAL allows.

Check: Is the weapon too large? Y/N
Y
Check: Divide the NW in half. Too large? Y/N
Y
Check: Move to the median of the difference between the initial size check and check #2. Too large? Y/N
(continues until it is not too large)
Check: Is decreasing an X a greater NW removal than decreasing a +?
(continues as the values are decreased equally)
(completes)
Check: What's the NW?

Done.


Perspective Nat. You see Choices going away, I see Strategy becoming more prevalent as a result. My points are correct Nat you just don't see it is all.

Choices are going away - how you want your weapon ratio, which armors you would like to keep equipped, how upgraded you would like each item to remain, etc - so that is undeniable. Those are choices you do not get to make.

I understand that you see strategy becoming more prevalent as a result, but how so? How does having everyone over the MWAL's total NW reduced at a static, equivalent rate yield an increase in strategy?

Zenai September 12 2010 9:53 PM EDT

You might not like my tone, but I'm still going to use it. I have the right to disagree with you and call you out on fallacious arguments anytime I damned well choose, just like everyone else.

I knew this from the beginning OB but since you like to stretch things out I felt it only nice to oblige you. Now that you get the idea remember what I told you in the Thinktank, that thought has not changed you can still apply it as it still....Applies....wow what a coincidence!

QBOddBird September 12 2010 9:57 PM EDT

I appreciate you addressing my posts instead of taking the easy way out, Zenai.

I do recall what you said in the Thinktank, and personally? I wouldn't mind if you actually followed through with it. Speaking of things you should follow through on, you actually offered 4 of my favorite suggestions in this entire thread:


Sigh. Nevermind eveything I have said. I'm officially done with attempting to suggest anything without it being cut down.

Nevermind eveything I have said. I'm officially done with attempting to suggest anything

I'm officially done with attempting to suggest anything

I'm officially done


<3

QBOddBird September 12 2010 9:58 PM EDT

And on that note, I'm officially done as well - with responding to you. I will freely address all other responses in this thread, as I do not want to censor myself, but I'll simply disregard those without an intellect working behind the post.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 12 2010 10:00 PM EDT

To Seal an Item the Calculations for X and + must be performed and then as said item is used the exact same checks would be performed every time there is a fight or when it is equipped....in short the Calcs are the same.

This isn't the same. Are there additional checks because you used the blacksmith yesterday? If not then there would be no additional checks.

A Trollskin Armor [22](S) NW: 20,325

A Trollskin Armor [22] NW: 20,325

These are exactly the same except that one if you go to the sealing store can be changed back into a larger TSA

Also, how should AoJ and AoI be accounted for. What about accounting for the different upgrade curves on items and the different amounts you have in each. What about minion sizes. What about upgraded items and base items together, which items get reduced first? Weapons are the easily balanced part.

Zenai September 12 2010 10:01 PM EDT

Oh and since you seem to have every single answer OB....go for it, the thread I mean it's all yours now. Feel better now your Majesty? You and people like you is what makes it harder and harder to justify coming back in CBs doors.

Zenai September 12 2010 10:02 PM EDT

All of you win I digress. Seal Seal Seal your heart away ok.

QBOddBird September 12 2010 10:05 PM EDT

how should AoJ and AoI be accounted for.

In defense of the WMAL proposal, someone stated that an exception could be placed for these items. This does not provide a solution for your other questions, and would not help with extremely low MPR users, but it does account for 90% of the situations with low NW unupgradeable items.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 12 2010 10:07 PM EDT

That ruins the point of them having NW then. They might as well be 0 NW.

Minnakht September 12 2010 10:24 PM EDT

It seems that if Sealing is implemented, ENC will need to be adjusted.

Sealing doesn't address how single minions can ignore the ENC cap altogether. (Look at Zenai's character - He's been dumping USD like water into it, but his ENC is still well below his cap)

Also, I believe that there was discussion on how 4-minion teams with a tank get shafted by ENC.


Is this how encumbrance is intended to work, or should it be fixed?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 10:29 PM EDT

as i stated in that other thread i think we need to look at some things before we decide either of those is broken. the main ones limited by enc on 4 minion teams have some extremely high nw as well.

i was hoping to get some feedback from ns on whether he could pull out some statistics on just how limiting enc was in the game and for who is it limiting.

the debate is really anecdotal, in my mind, at this point and i would like to see some data before i make up my mind.

i guess that is the other reason i like the seals, it fixes the part of encumbrance that a consensus has deemed to be problematic and doesn't rule out or in any other tweaks to enc if it is needed later.

QBOddBird September 12 2010 10:33 PM EDT

Well, you can also look at it from the viewpoint that the way Encumbrance is currently, you can actually build your team to allow maximum encumbrance.

ST and HP give the most encumbrance per stat point, so if you build a character that focuses on these and enhances them, through stat distribution and gear boosts, you can actually create a build that allows you to use more NW.

This is one of the few advantages to single minions, but it might be too much of an advantage, given the amount of bonus to STR you can achieve with the gears currently available.

On the other hand, I don't think there's anything wrong with multi-minion teams having a weaker Encumbrance as minion count increases; all Defensive Enchantments work better for multi-minion teams, kill slots allow them to live longer than fewer minion teams, they allow for a greater variety in strategy, etc. and so forth.

As mentioned earlier in the thread and earlier in my post, there are very few advantages to having lesser minions, and so it is appropriate for 4-minion teams to get shafted by Encumbrance IMO. It's a "can't have your cake and eat it too" type scenario in my mind.

Fixing encumbrance for single minion, focused, attribute-enhancing teams strikes me as making a change that affects all in order to curb the exception.

QBOddBird September 12 2010 10:35 PM EDT

the debate is really anecdotal, in my mind, at this point and i would like to see some data before i make up my mind.

Wow, that's a much easier way to sum up my post. I sat there and swayed back and forth (ENC might be too much, you can boost so much STR / it's appropriate for someone who focuses to get more ENC) when this is really the truth of it.

Zenai September 12 2010 10:39 PM EDT

Well, you can also look at it from the viewpoint that the way Encumbrance is currently, you can actually build your team to allow maximum encumbrance.


Yup you sure can:


5,060,000 Mil Str allows me - Encumbered at: 474,644,268

With:
+13 AoM(26% Str Added), and
+30 BoM(30% Str Added)

Strength: 8,096,000 / 5,060,000 - Encumbered at: 566,018,234

With: With the # 1 ToA(Tat) in the game (15.4 Mil Currently)

Increases the wearer's base ST by 50% of the tattoo's effective level.

I get: Strength: 20,951,769 / 5,060,000 - Encumbered at: 955,458,343

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 12 2010 10:45 PM EDT

yeah, i was gonna say that this is exactly what zen has done. this does bring up an interesting point though. is the use of nw to increase enc and allow more nw the intent?

after our discussion regarding enchants affecting enc i have been contemplating whether anything other than trained stats or xp should affect it at all. what if we removed gear boosts from the equation?

enc would likely then need to be increased but would that be more in line with what it was intended than the current model?

QBOddBird September 12 2010 10:49 PM EDT

I think so. I don't think Jon's intention was to allow you to spend 1M in upgrades to achieve 10M more weapon upgrades, you know?

Making it based on natural levels seems like a splendid fix, though it might need to be adjusted upwards a bit, as you said.

Soxjr September 12 2010 11:15 PM EDT

I stopped reading a long time ago and might have missed something, but really what is the point of all this arguing. Are people really getting this frustrated about something that isn't actually happening? I mean people are throwing around insults and others are giving their char away and leaving because of what??? Some suggestion that isn't even a part of the game?

This all seems a bit silly and people should really calm down. I mean seals... do you really see cb changing this drastically just because of some suggestion. From what I did read everything about this is silly. You guys are suggesting something that would completely change the game and probably take tons of time to code and put into the game itself. So it's rather foolish to get this upset. Unless I missed the part where NS said "Yep, I'm adding this to the game as soon as I can!" Then it would make sense to get this riled up over it.

I'm kinda glad my op powers are just chat, because I have a feeling I would already have given a few people some time outs from posting on the forums and who knows what else. It's really ridiculous.

iBananco [Blue Army] September 12 2010 11:41 PM EDT

To all those advocating one way or another:
1. Set % allocated to x
2. Calculate what the % of the allowed NW is
3. Convert to equivalent x
4. If this is > the original x, keep x as is
5. Remainder of the NW goes to +

Simple, automatic, allows customization, requires very little calculation on the server's part.

iBananco [Blue Army] September 12 2010 11:45 PM EDT

Ah yes, also, if final + > total +, set total + to + and convert remainder to x.

Zenai September 12 2010 11:53 PM EDT

I mean people are throwing around insults and others are giving their char away and leaving because of what??? Some suggestion that isn't even a part of the game?

Bro OB, no matter how much of a Jerkwad, is not special enough to make me want to give away my char even in his best times and me at my worst. I have been contemplating a break for quite a while OB just reminded me why is all. I wanted to make sure my char went on after I left, having it stagnate would just kill me. So a contest was my compromise since I did not know how long I will be taking this break. The rest is just gravy and yes OB that was truth and I really do not give a damm how you take it.

QBOddBird September 13 2010 12:10 AM EDT

I'm kinda glad my op powers are just chat, because I have a feeling I would already have given a few people some time outs from posting on the forums

I'm glad too then, as I haven't seen anyone post anything here worthy of a forum break. :)

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] September 13 2010 12:27 AM EDT

" I'm glad too then, as I haven't seen anyone post anything here worthy of a forum break. :) "



LOL. There's your proof.. The bird really hasn't been reading anything ;)

Admin going to close it yet?

QBOddBird September 13 2010 12:32 AM EDT

They might, but it would be kind of disappointing to those who tried to keep a valid discussion going. Especially since the parties who were arguing had stopped before it was brought back up again by someone else.

Soxjr September 13 2010 12:55 AM EDT

Well, OB, you might want to re-read some stuff you and zenai posted, because I can clearly see a few spots where some of the old guard like GBeee and Bart would have stopped the conversation and handed out a few fines for some of the name calling childish behavior shown in this thread. Maybe I'm just tired and cranky and getting old, but really. Name calling because some crazy idea just thought up out of the blue that has no real chance of being implemented in the game that you don't agree on the implementation of. Just childish. Yeah I brought it back up. I wasn't reading forums when you guys were having your little cat fight to post when it was happening and felt some clear headed typing was needed.

You know someone showing how arguing on the internet about something that isn't even happening is kinda dumb. :)

QBOddBird September 13 2010 1:23 AM EDT

You know someone showing how arguing on the internet about something that isn't even happening is kinda dumb. :)

I agree, this is kind of dumb. Can we please get the thread back on track?

AdminShade September 13 2010 1:46 AM EDT

Just get it back on topic and it'll be fine.
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