ToE Broken against RoBF? (in General)


DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] March 19 2011 10:50 AM EDT

So i hit Pit Spawns' char Triumvirate with my robf on an 84 AC minion for "Rog burns from the flames surrounding 2 (2502725)" Yet I hit Johnnywas' char The Travelling Man for "Rory burns from the flames surrounding 2 (2561159)" and that minion has 41 AC AND ToE...

After a couple more tests I still do more damage by a large amount on the ToE Minion "Rog burns from the flames surrounding 2 (2536440)" and "Rory burns from the flames surrounding 2 (2705514)" also "Rog burns from the flames surrounding 2 (2247004)" and "Rory burns from the flames surrounding 2 (2744617)"

I know there is a high and low end for RoBF damage but still Johnny has a 10mil ToE... that should account for some damage reduction shouldn't it?

Sickone March 19 2011 11:23 AM EDT

Well, I look at it as more of a feature rather than a bug, but, meh, I suppose it would make more sense if the ToE would matter instead of being ignored.

King March 19 2011 11:38 AM EDT

The ToE only works against physical damage sources so I'm guessing the RoBF is either a unique form of damage, like GA, or modified magic damage.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] March 19 2011 11:50 AM EDT

RoBF is its own type of damage.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] March 19 2011 11:52 AM EDT

I was thinking more the fact that RoBF damage is reduced by AC so why not a ToE as well

QBOddBird March 19 2011 12:43 PM EDT

It would be nice if the ToE reduced RoBF damage, maybe the tattoo would be a little more useful...

QBJohnnywas March 19 2011 1:02 PM EDT

I love the ToE, but as well as only being useful against physical damage it's growth plateaus somewhere around 7 mill. The tattoo is actually 13 mill in level and only gives me .05 more endurance than a 7 mill tatt.

Meanwhile I can take care of most magic dealers thanks to my bow, and most physical damage dealers get taken care of by the ToE (coupled with big DBs). So some protection against RBF would be lovely thanks!

QBRanger March 20 2011 10:22 AM EDT

I have brought up this as a boost to the ToE in the past quite a few times.

Each time that idea was resoundingly shot down.

I doubt NS's mind has changed since then.

Duke March 20 2011 11:02 AM EDT

The issue is wider that this in my opinion. Dmg dealing as been nerf across the block and dmg reduction. Protection is now gone ToE is shoebox AC been reduce as well. Most know way to protect yourself from GA and RoBF is eithers gone or as been nerf. Both are highly present now in most strat. Anyway its not the worse out there weapon allowance is a disaster. I wont get into long ranting like i did in the time of the SMTOE wich took month to get its fix.

Hey ranger its been a while, hope thing are going well for you ?

Fishead March 20 2011 11:06 AM EDT

Kicking a RoBF will not reduce the damage and aparently ends up with a broken ToE?

Zenai March 20 2011 12:39 PM EDT

I have brought up this as a boost to the ToE in the past quite a few times.

And I have agreed with it every time caveat a few tweaks. Maybe not full protection but some from a Magical Tattoo against a Magical Damage would be nice.


Just my thoughts on it.

QBRanger March 20 2011 1:13 PM EDT

I believe there are 4 types of damage:

1) Physical
2) Magical
3) GA
4) RBF

I would like to see the ToE be useful at least vs 2 of the 4. Right now it only works vs 1. It does not help vs GA even if you are a physical damage dealer as the GA damage is a "special" type of damage IIRC.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] March 20 2011 3:10 PM EDT

The ToE is pretty bad as is.

I never was around for the explanation as to why the RoBF (already a nice tattoo) was given the addition of AMF/DD reduction and the ToE lost it.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] March 20 2011 3:59 PM EDT

Sorry for the double but it just also occurred to me that the ToE is the only tattoo that only does one thing.

- The familiars train HP and DD (or UC/archery/str/dex)
- The RoS trains ED and protects from DM
- ToA trains str/dex adds pth to weapons

- ToE reduces one type of damage.

It should have a secondary effect. Casts SS at 25% of its level, some kind of AMF effect, or just give it back the amf/dd/ga reduction.

QBOddBird March 20 2011 4:52 PM EDT

Or Give it back the aura :]

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] March 20 2011 6:24 PM EDT

I think GA reduction would be cool since GA's only weakness is DM where the amf/robf have multiple ways to reduce their dmg.

Zenai March 20 2011 6:47 PM EDT

I am a select few agree with you on this Pit. Even if not the ToE then another way to truly reduce RoBF Damage. Still though this can kinda ring true for GA Damage since the only was to nuke it is DM or the massive AC bordering on the Magic no Damage taken Number. True enough thou the Toe does need to have something added as Horseguy pointed out it on does one thing and CJ pointed out the plateau sucks after 7 Mil levels.

In short it needs an update to make it a validated viable Tat again. Whether is is Defense against another damage type(reduced or otherwise), another different Secondary Effect like SS or bringing back something that didn't pan out so well before like the Aura Effect(it might be viable now). Hell even something new would be cool just give the ToE a little umpth again please.

Karn [Hell Blenders] March 20 2011 7:13 PM EDT

The ToE could give the minion equipped with it regenerative hp similar to the TSA.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 20 2011 9:18 PM EDT

the wiki entry for endurance says that it affects the entire team, was that taken away?

if it does only affect the one minion wearing the tat i tend to think that it could protect against all damage types and still not be over powered considering its amount of damage reduction.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] March 20 2011 9:21 PM EDT

Dude: damage reduction affects whole team, SS is only granted to the wearer though.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 20 2011 9:30 PM EDT

ok, i would suggest the change then as above, have it work against all damage types but only on the wearer.

Reignmaker [Battle Royale] March 20 2011 9:37 PM EDT

I do agree that the ToE should be upped a little bit since it has fallen into uselessness, but has anyone really noticed that no game mechanics suggestions have been taken? NS puts in plenty of work into this game, but I would guess he tries to stay away from changing the formulas of the game.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] March 20 2011 9:41 PM EDT

My suggestion would be aura SS, plus maybe the current reduction, or something similar, maybe even less. Aura SS would really make it a better tattoo.

Zenai March 20 2011 9:44 PM EDT

okay earlier post I have to say I was a bit tipsy....still am (wooohoo) that said I see this and have to wonder.

# Primary effect: Grants Endurance to all minions

Does this really apply or was this changed and just not updated in the Wiki? Aside from that How "Much" Endurance does it grant again? For the Wearer it is how much? Is it reduced for minions other than the wearer? If so how much?

# Secondary effect: Grants Steel Skin to the wearer, at 1/10th the tattoo level.

1/10th of the Tat level for SS huh, well is it able to be Dispelled? If so don't you think in the land of the DM shotgun that this should be upped just a little? I seriously doubt that number is near what it should be at this point in time.


Truly answers I would like to get concerning this particular Tat. It has been the subject of so many threads saying it is antiquated. I would very much like to see some number crunchers take it apart and provide some much needed data to shed some light on the subject.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] March 20 2011 9:57 PM EDT

Obviously no one is even trying to use this tat to find out how it really works. To clarify some of these things. The endurance shows up right on the post battle stats for each minion. It is the same for all minions regardless of who has it equipped. The SS only works on the minion wearing the tat and it is not subject to DM.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] March 20 2011 10:01 PM EDT

I thought I already covered this Nat, and isn't it all in the Wiki?

Reignmaker [Battle Royale] March 20 2011 10:02 PM EDT

Everyone ignored my point. -_-

Zenai March 20 2011 10:06 PM EDT

Thank you for some clarification Nat!

The endurance shows up right on the post battle stats for each minion. It is the same for all minions regardless of who has it equipped.

Ok so an Aura effect so to speak, now what is the percentage by tat size? like for a 1-7 mil Tat what are the Endurance #s and what do they turn out to be percentagewise? The reason I ask is because all of the other Familiars,Runes and Tats have Percentages attached, it would be nice to have the same for the ToE.


The SS only works on the minion wearing the tat and it is not subject to DM.

Interesting. Really it's SS is not subject to DM? That would make it special indeed, is that in the Wiki?(I is being lazy right now)

Zenai March 20 2011 10:10 PM EDT

has anyone really noticed that no game mechanics suggestions have been taken? NS puts in plenty of work into this game, but I would guess he tries to stay away from changing the formulas of the game.

Not ignored Dan I promise, we already know/have seen this ourselves. There is a multitude of reasons for doing this, name it and it is probably on the list.

Reignmaker [Battle Royale] March 20 2011 10:16 PM EDT

So what's the point in having large discussions about game mechanics where the ultimate result is that even if everyone does come to an agreement, the change still will most likely still not be implemented?

I'm not trolling or anything, I just want to know why you guys keep doing something I have long considered as futile.

QBOddBird March 20 2011 10:17 PM EDT

Really it's SS is not subject to DM?

The problem is, who cares about having SS on a minion with a tattoo equipped? It can't really take advantage of the boost to AC.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] March 20 2011 10:20 PM EDT

I'm not trolling or anything, I just want to know why you guys keep doing something I have long considered as futile.

it is likely boredom for the most part with a healthy (or unhealthy) dose of enjoying discussing game mechanics whether they happen or not.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] March 20 2011 10:20 PM EDT

It's a very logarithmic scale Zen. Like 1M gives you like 35% reduction, then 7M is like 50% and 13M is only like 55%. So, I'm guessing a 20M tat would give you like 58% reduction.

Zenai March 20 2011 10:42 PM EDT

Dan: Dude has it right, it is one of the reasons :-)

OB: Well of this I do agree it should have a boost. However since it is not subject to DM then the boost would need to be subtle or at the very least watched closely and increased/decreased incrementally to avoid it becoming OP. For those with little AC yeah it's not much but with High AC it could become a problem.

Titan: Thank you! I was thinking there was a specific percentage that could be readily made for the Wiki. I knew there was a plateau around 6-7 Mil lvls many have mentioned it before having a % helps.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] March 20 2011 10:42 PM EDT

6.5 mil named ToE - .515 (51.5%) Endurance.

5.8 mil named ToE - 0.505 (50.5%) Endurance.

3.6m ToE - .49 (49%) Endurance.

3 mil level ToE - .45 (45%) Endurance.

1.1 mil level ToE - .41 (41%) Endurance.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] March 20 2011 10:46 PM EDT

50% Reduction is pretty big though...in what order is that applied?

Is it SoC > AC > ToE? If so then maybe there is an unexplored niche with a SoC wall up front with an enchanter wearing a ToE. That would be a pretty big flash XD

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] March 20 2011 11:15 PM EDT

JW has a huge ToE if someone wants to ask him what his reduction is. I think it's something like 58-60%.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] March 20 2011 11:16 PM EDT

Horse: Percent reductions don't require orderings.

iBananco [Blue Army] March 20 2011 11:25 PM EDT

Not for actual damage done, no, but it matters when calculating the stored damage.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] March 21 2011 12:36 AM EDT

Is it SoC > AC > ToE? If so then maybe there is an unexplored niche with a SoC wall up front with an enchanter wearing a ToE. That would be a pretty big flash XD

That is how it works and that is why I won the highest damage tourney.

Reignmaker [Battle Royale] March 21 2011 1:06 AM EDT

Why would the flash from that setup be bigger than having an SoC alone? Reducing damage shouldn't make your SoC damage higher, right?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] March 21 2011 1:20 AM EDT

A Tattoo of Endurance lvl 13,428,153 Endurance 0.55

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] March 21 2011 2:22 AM EDT

You can live through more damage so you can absorb more with the shield and then deal more damage back.

QBJohnnywas March 21 2011 7:10 AM EDT

Ahem, HG. Enchanter/ToE, with TSA Tank/SoC upfront...not far off what you're talking about...has been working pretty well for me for quite some time...

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] March 21 2011 9:18 AM EDT

I didn't notice the SoC on your team.

Methinks I still need another 8 mil HP to get you on my list :D

QBJohnnywas March 21 2011 9:46 AM EDT

This set up plus big DBs pretty much makes me invulnerable to almost every other tank in the game. There's only a couple can take me without the addition of RBF. Against that I have no defense whatsoever. Most of the people I cannot beat are RBF.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] March 21 2011 12:10 PM EDT

"The battle ended in stalemate after 50 rounds of combat"

I'm a boss JW XD.

QBJohnnywas March 21 2011 1:02 PM EDT

I cant beat Titan, but I do come out of that battle with nearly 12 mill HP on my tank.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] March 21 2011 1:18 PM EDT

Yeah, currently my BoTH hits like a wet noodle and only hits you like 20% of the time. On my final char, I'll have a pretty large Decay with NSCs to help alleviate the pain against chars like yours.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] March 21 2011 3:59 PM EDT

Big Decays are nice, but get totally pwned against low HP minions back by TSA/PL minions, with an RoBF hammering away.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] March 21 2011 4:04 PM EDT

If JW did that, my tank would hit like twice as much tho too.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] March 21 2011 5:39 PM EDT

I didn't mean JW's team specifically. Teams like db and king of pain are good examples of teams that make a large decay pretty useless XD

Shadow Ruler March 21 2011 6:21 PM EDT

Pretty sure its more like ToE, SoC, AC ..reasoning is 50% physical reduction.
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