Thought on non-rares (in General)


QBRanger May 29 2011 8:55 PM EDT

How about making non-rares, no matter how high they are upgraded, add 0 to PR? They would still count towards ENC.

So if you want to use leather gloves for AC instead of TGs you may lose a few points of AC but will gain a bit of PR. Or a tower shield instead of a MS, etc....

Just a thought, just feeling this idea out.

AdminNightStrike May 29 2011 10:10 PM EDT

Technically, they do add power. The power factor could be reduced, however. A point of AC on leather gloves is obviously not the same PR as a point of AC on any rare that has a 0.2 power factor. Of course, the NW isn't the same, either, and in theory, it's power factor * NW.

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] May 29 2011 10:11 PM EDT

I think making them add no power makes way more sense >_>.

Lord Bob May 29 2011 10:13 PM EDT

I like this idea. I endorse it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 30 2011 7:14 AM EDT

They should still add PR.

For a single reason.

A bare team with no AC at all has less 'power' than a 4 minion team full to the bring of non rares granting AC.

Now, if non rares increase PR by too much, then by all means reduce it.

But making them give no 'power' cheapens the meaning of 'power rating'.

QBRanger May 30 2011 8:02 AM EDT

Very true GL,

But at this stage of CB, how many team have no AC?

Vs teams that have every rare they want/need.

Perhaps this can be a money sink and make non-rares be sort of useful again in certain situations.

AdminNightStrike May 30 2011 11:45 AM EDT

I have no issue reducing it so that it can be viable.

QBJohnnywas May 30 2011 11:48 AM EDT

Hey,who let that GL in!?!?!? ;)

QBRanger May 30 2011 11:52 AM EDT

Right now:

Cloak or robe .1 vs Shadow cloak .1
Non Rare boots .1 vs CML .1

True for the NW you get more + for the rares, but if you lower the PR to minimal or remove it for the non-rares, that gives people a nice choice.

I think removing it best, but lowering it by at least 75% to .025 or even .01 would be possible.

Or it may not even change how people play, I have no idea, just throwing stuff out there.

Zenai May 30 2011 12:29 PM EDT

Correct me if I am wrong but if there was no PR on the Non-Rares couldn't I break the game (top end) with mega NW?


Just a quick thought.........

QBRanger May 30 2011 12:53 PM EDT

Z,

If you really wanted to upgrade a cloak to +16 = $6,474,492 vs +16 = $475,962 for a SC, I do not think you would break the game.

True, you will have lots of NW, but your AC would be less than a few of the walls in the game already.

You would have lower PR of course, but less effectiveness and it would be a nice money sink.

Kefeck May 30 2011 1:06 PM EDT

It'd be great for low power RoE strats

Zenai May 30 2011 1:27 PM EDT

Money sink I guessed on I guess my clarification would be on the rewards system. It would seem a terrible thing to upgrade at first until you see the rewards pile on later and eventually pay for themselves in both CBD and EXP for the char.

AdminNightStrike May 31 2011 3:41 PM EDT

I think this highlights a larger issue on the validity of PR. If PR is the power factor * NW, and a +16 cloak is $6m, and a +16 SC is $0.5m, and they both have the same factor and add the exact some effective power to your character (well, in terms of magic defense at least.. let's ignore physical defense, since it is in the favor of the SC anyway)......

then that means that the cloak gets a much larger PR for the same effect. In turn, that means that PR really doesn't mean much. With two characters all else being equal, one with a cloak and one with an SC, the SC char will have lower PR and be equal or more powerful given the physical/magical difference from earlier.

Maybe we already account for this. I'll look at the code later. In the meantime, does anyone have equivalent items handy to see what, say, a cloak +5 and SC +5 add in terms of PR?

QBRanger May 31 2011 4:40 PM EDT

a cloak +5 and SC +5 add in terms of PR?

Remember that PR addition will depend on the xp of the minion using it.

So even at the same MPR, different minions using a +5 cloak or a +5 SC can add different PR to a character.

Zenai May 31 2011 4:56 PM EDT

For the sake of simplicity use one char and a SM would probably be best.

Warchild May 31 2011 5:50 PM EDT

I personally think that Rangers idea would have exactly the effect he stated..it would offer a choice between higher AC,with rares, or lower PR for better rewards from the non-rares

It would have the added effect of making upgrading non-rares a viable (but still expensive) option, creating a cash sink & giving another option so that not everyone feels they HAVE to have the rares to compete (especially at lower levels.)

The actual items are not needed, the math works the same no matter what

CML +15 = $61,581 * 0.1% = .061581% PR increase
Leather Boots +15 = $2,659,648 * 0.1% = 2.659648% PR increase

also
CML +39 = $2,475,509 * 0.1 = 2.475509% PR increase

So two conclusions
1: Leather Boots +15 would increase pr by 43% more than CML +15..this increase would become more pronounced as more NW is added
2: for the same pr increase +14 more can be added to CML

If the PR increase is removed from the Leather Boots (or even dramatically reduced, tho i think removal would be better) then you are left with
Leather Boots +15 for 2.6 mil & no PR increase (or 0.266 PR increase @ 0.01 Power Weight)
or
CML +15 for 61K with a 0.062 PR increase
or
CML +39 for 2.4 mil with a 2.475% PR increase

To put it more in perspective at 1mil MPR (for the minion using the items)
Current system
Leather Boots +15 cost 2.6 Mil PR 1,026,596
CML +15 cost 61k PR 1,000,615
CML +39 cost 2.4 Mil PR 1,024,756

w/o PR increase on non-rares (or 0.01 Power Weight)
Leather Boots +15 cost 2.6 Mil PR 1,000,000 (1,002,660)
CML +15 cost 61k PR 1,000,615
CML +39 cost 2.4 Mil PR 1,024,756

Basically i see a way to pay to have lower PR using non-rares but the cost increase for non-rares would never "break" the scale even at high end due to exponential cost increases.
ex Leather Boots
+16 = $4,832,374
+17 = $8,780,123 (highest listed in Help!) & the cost increase would increase dramatically from there..estimated about 17 Mil NW for +18 and about 35 Mil for +19

~WC~

QBRanger May 31 2011 7:06 PM EDT

WC,

Well put, stated much better with all the math than I could.

Well, I think we have most of the pros and cons of this discussion.

Hopefully NS can make a decision for the good of CB.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 1 2011 12:12 PM EDT

This is a symptom of nothing more than CBs backwards design for items and increases.

The 'best' or 'better' items are the cheapest, fastest, and easiest to increase.

That's backwards by any game standard.

Equivalent 'Power' levels with in item slots also won't ever be level until you assign an increase of Power due to any special effects items give.

Even if, at the same +, a Wooden Shield gave the same AC (again magical, as Physical suffers due to base levels...) as a BoM, with the same PR weight, the BoM gives out free 'power' due to its inbuilt increase to Strength.

What *should* happen is the BoM have a higher upgrade cost and/or PR weight to the Wooden Shield, to acocunt for it's higher base AC and inbuilt Strength increase.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 1 2011 12:14 PM EDT

To add;

What *should* happen is the BoM have a higher upgrade cost and/or PR weight to the Wooden Shield, to account for it's higher base AC and inbuilt Strength increase.

The Wooden Shield shouldn't ever give zero PR increase.

Either the WS PR weight/Upgrade cost be deceased, or the BoM PR weight/Upgrade cost increased.

QBRanger June 1 2011 1:53 PM EDT

Equivalent 'Power' levels with in item slots also won't ever be level until you assign an increase of Power due to any special effects items give.

That is already done.

The BOM has a .15 vs a SWS .1 power rating. A MgS has a .2 and a SoC has a .15.

TSA has .2 while an adam has .1.

etc... it is like this for all items that have special abilities.

It is the NW for AC disparity that I would hope to address and perhaps make non-rare more viable.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 1 2011 2:38 PM EDT

Well, that's really the point. ;)

Is the 0.05 increase of the BoM enough to make up for the higher Base AC, Cheaper Curve and Strength Increase?

If it is, then there should be reason already to use a SWS over a BoM.

QBRanger June 1 2011 2:42 PM EDT

But why use a SWS when a MS, which only gives AC, has the same PR rating and has a much easier upgrade curve?

Now if the SWS had very little or no PR addition, then it would perhaps in some cases, be a viable alternative to the MS.

The BoM is a different beast as people upgrade them less for AC than for strength increase.

Like using a SoC vs a CoI.

QBRanger June 1 2011 2:43 PM EDT

SC, not SoC, in the last line above.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 1 2011 2:48 PM EDT

Like I said above;

This is a symptom of nothing more than CBs backwards design for items and increases.

The 'best' or 'better' items are the cheapest, fastest, and easiest to increase.

That's backwards by any game standard.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 1 2011 2:50 PM EDT

Oh, and I suppose a better example for my post above would have been to use the SWS versus the MS (and not the BoM! :P).

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 1 2011 2:52 PM EDT

As a slight aside, going back to the OP;

So if you want to use leather gloves for AC instead of TGs you may lose a few points of AC but will gain a bit of PR.

You answered yourself here (And LEather Gloves are 0.1 while the TG are the higher 0.15)

The BoM is a different beast as people upgrade them less for AC than for strength increase.

;)

QBRanger June 1 2011 2:56 PM EDT

Perhaps a better OP would have been using a MS to a tower or SWS.

I think few people currently use TGs for the str increase and most use it for the AC increase.

However, I do agree that in some ways the weighting is a bit off.

However only 50% more weighting for a lot more AC AND more strength is certainly not enough.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 1 2011 2:58 PM EDT

Agreed on all counts. ;)

But then again, I'd like to see CB run a 'proper' upgrade system, and have the best gear be the hardest to upgrade.

That would instantly give reason to all the currently useless dross that clutters up the game.

Such as Tulwars. ;)

(Well... I still feel there is too much clutter with weapons. We don't need so many, and never have)

Zenai June 1 2011 3:26 PM EDT

I do believe the idea was to reduce the amount of PR that non rares add to make them more viable.

My counterpoint was that no matter the NW it would be a boon to those who have no problem taking and dumping major CBD for a bump in Rewards due to the reduction in PR added.


Case in point the ToA and what it adds to plus on weapons for 0 PR respectively in the area of no need to add to the physical weapon as a result. Viola higher rewards instantaneously.

Add in that for the X on weapons do not count towards PR and you have a win/win/win situation.

This in perspective is no different is what I am getting at. Do it and I will prove the possible exploit.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 1 2011 4:03 PM EDT

The Wooden Shield shouldn't ever give zero PR increase.

;)

Zenai June 1 2011 6:06 PM EDT

GO: Reduced does not mean Zero it was an exaggeration but the point should have stuck. Now rather than get caught up in semantics how about focusing, if you reduce Non-Rares PR by too much it can and in some cases will be wide open for an exploit.

AdminNightStrike June 2 2011 12:57 PM EDT

If Warchild's post is right, and I have yet to check the code to verify any of it, then basically, two items that add the exact same effective power in terms of AC give two wildly different values of PR.

Fixing that would require fixing the underlying PR calculation, which really shouldn't be based off of NW. It should be based off the actual power the items add. For instance, X PR for AC, Y PR for a static effect, Z PR for a %/+ based effect, etc.

Duke June 2 2011 2:24 PM EDT

I dislike getting involve in those discussion so ill make its short.

free AC for no PR = no good.

Zenai June 2 2011 2:54 PM EDT

I agree with Duke,WC as well for ghat matter bout I am not a mathemiticcian or programmer.

Basics though dictate one thing to me however, less PR equal higher rewards. If the PR is reduced too much for nonrares then an exploit is available no matter if the amount of NW involved is high. Some can and will get the amount of CBD necessary if it means in the long run it will pay itself off in rewards, especially EXP.

Yes there are many ways to get better output from your char but if I could get a moderate equivalent for my AC for less PR then NW is negligible if my rewards are boosted as a result.

After all is CBland not about an MPR race? Wouldn't something like this spark
another route for that race? Haven't other routes been seen as cheating even though a part of the system and yet stopped?

Kefeck June 2 2011 4:22 PM EDT

Some can and will get the amount of CBD necessary if it means in the long run it will pay itself off in rewards, especially EXP.

If you took a second to look at the upgrade curves for non rares. You'll find there's not enough CBD in the entire game to be worthwhile or even be considered as an exploit.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] June 2 2011 5:09 PM EDT

Fixing that would require fixing the underlying PR calculation, which really shouldn't be based off of NW. It should be based off the actual power the items add. For instance, X PR for AC, Y PR for a static effect, Z PR for a %/+ based effect, etc.

would fixing that then make integrating pr and encumbrance more doable?

Duke June 2 2011 6:25 PM EDT

The real prob that is there is way too many rare. While most of you are more interest into changing blablabla .... i say there only 2 option, new DB or reduce the rate of rare spawing to 1 or 2 per week. Rare would be mostly hand out by the god ! should be a great sale pitch for the redneck in the south.
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