ToE (in General)


{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 12 2011 5:31 PM EDT

because this thing gets used so irregularly and we have people who complain about the Exbow, i figured we should combine the systems already in place.

Any drain from the exbow and axbow is reduced on hitting a target with endurance.
The new drain is calculated as Drain/(endurance value +1).

QBRanger July 12 2011 5:34 PM EDT

The ToE already lowers damage to a significant degree that the exbow is fairly nerfed vs these characters.

In addition, the ToE precludes use of a ToA, and therefore any tank on such a character typically has a fairly decent AC.

I believe that we need to fix the exbow instead of devising patches to an obviously broken item of which nothing is CB is similar.

Or at the least, make it possible to regenerate strength in melee to at least be able to possibly maybe have a chance.

Underage Drinking [Battle Royale] July 12 2011 5:34 PM EDT

My beef is with the unknown constant with the exbow, it can be as litle as 170 STR per X or as high as 1,000 STR per X(even more). the more STR trained the higher the unknown constant rises.

QBJohnnywas July 12 2011 5:49 PM EDT

"The ToE already lowers damage to a significant degree that the exbow is fairly nerfed vs these characters."

Um, not really, at least not with the larger exbows.

QBRanger July 12 2011 5:58 PM EDT

Um, not really, at least not with the larger exbows.

HuH?

I was under the assumption it was basically lightly armored ToA tanks that had to worry about the exbow.

You mean with your ToE and 10.3M HP and 152 AC and +24ish SOC you get leeched from exbows below 0 AC?

I guess you must be forced to use +200 DBs to avoid getting hit.

Behold the power of the exbow even if those with good-great defense get leeched.

So much for the "you do not have a defensive setup" garbage.

Duke July 12 2011 6:00 PM EDT

Even a jiggy with 20M dex + 400 evasion cant avoid ax/exbow.

QBRanger July 12 2011 6:04 PM EDT

All this time I was told that my character did not have enough "defense" to protect vs the exbow.

And how I find that teams that almost specialize in defense get hit hard by this item.

I wonder what "defense" actually is. An AC 360 heavy tank using +200 DBs, with 20M hp and PL with a +30 SoC?

But, as some think, this item is "perfectly" balanced for CB. Wrong!

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] July 12 2011 8:13 PM EDT

Don't get hit by an exbow thats bigger then shadow sparkles apparently.

He cant even drain my PL minion in all of ranged.

QBRanger July 12 2011 9:05 PM EDT

Um, not really, at least not with the larger exbows.

Can you please read the appropriate posts?

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] July 12 2011 9:23 PM EDT

I read everyone's reply here.. my post was merely a joke in light of the subject -_- sarcasm obviously doesn't travel well through the inter-webs.

If you don't want to get hit by a weapon DBs are pretty much the only way to avoid that. If you want to avoid drains a PL battery with some str helps a ton.

An even better way to avoid ex/axbows is to not place all your eggs in one basket.

Nothing will completely save you from a 130m nw exbow hitting you from one of the top ranked teams, best way it to avoid getting hit or use a PL to take the drain for you.

Quyen July 13 2011 5:05 AM EDT

Hmmm.. 4 tanks with 3 PL with quite some str to prevent it? xD

QBJohnnywas July 13 2011 7:00 AM EDT

On average Novice's exbow hits me for half the damage he can probably do against somebody without a ToE, so the percentage of my HP is half what it would be. He hits for approx 1% of my total HP, but hits twice in a round, so he's getting the equivalent of the old standard drain if I'm reading the Wiki right.

So the ToE is doing what it's supposed to, reducing the exbow's power by half. But so is the exbow, it's stopping me. My tank dex does cut the amount of hits down to two though, against one of my other minions that exbow hits four times. A bit more dex, some evasion/dbs and my tank wouldn't get hit.

Add to this the fact that the SoC's return damage is not affected by the exbow and I'm perfectly happy with the situation.

Also, we really aren't overrun with exbows right now, a tiny handful.

The RBF is far more annoying in my opinion. Now that I would like to be able to counter more easily.

AdminTitan July 13 2011 9:26 AM EDT

You need like 85-90% reduction to stop exbows, ToE isn't going to cut it. Which is the problem I have with the ToE, AC does it's job better, and it doesn't take up a tattoo slot. So what AC costs 250M more, I'd much rather have a free tat slot, where I'd use a RoS and have guaranteed SS.

AdminTitan July 13 2011 9:29 AM EDT

I think with my full SS, no exbows drain me, I'm pretty sure. That's with 417AC and SS, so 87.6% reduction. Xeno drains me easily without SS though, at only 70%, guess that doesn't cut it. Remember with higher HP this number could be lower, but I'm guessing any reduction below 75% isn't going to cut it.

QBRanger July 13 2011 9:59 AM EDT

That's with 417AC and SS, so 87.6% reduction.

So one needs to have a heavy heavy tank without any supporting tank armor except for TGs to have a chance vs the exbow?

Even if this is only 1/2 true, does that not show how powerful the exbow is?

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] July 13 2011 10:08 AM EDT

For the price of that wall armor you could upgrade a pair of DBs to the point of barely ever getting hit by one -_-

Avoidance is far easier then trying to reduce the drain through AC, especially since you are still getting hit by it..

AdminTitan July 13 2011 10:09 AM EDT

So one needs to have a heavy heavy tank without any supporting tank armor except for TGs to have a chance vs the exbow?
Even if this is only 1/2 true, does that not show how powerful the exbow is?

Well the great thing about AC is it not only stops the exbow, but if it's high enough it can also drastically reduce magic damage, make you invulnerable to GA, and make you nearly invulnerable to physical damage. But, enough about how awesome AC is, back to the exbow. The reason I say the exbow isn't a problem, is because it's only really effective as a defensive weapon. No one should every be farming you just due to the fact that they are using an exbow. If you wear comparable DBs ( actually they can be quite smaller ), have an AoI, and a PL minion, then it is very unlikely they will hit you twice a match, 100% of the time. They'll most likely only beat you like 60% of the time, this is due to the huge ranged penalties and low bth of the exbow. This means that they're not going to farm you, because it's a waste of BA, and if they due, you're getting free exp. Also, the exbow is completely useless against magic, and can end up being a doorstop in most matches.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] July 13 2011 10:11 AM EDT

Let's not forget the ToE is great for fighting higher, and keeping a low power.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] July 13 2011 10:14 AM EDT

Well the great thing about AC is it not only stops the exbow

You'll never stop the ex-bow with high HP if the ex-bow user has a large DM (As shown with Xeno, he regularly hits dudemus's wall for over 150k)

But you're right AC is pretty wonderful :)

Kefeck [BlackSmith] July 13 2011 10:15 AM EDT

This means that they're not going to farm you, because it's a waste of BA

This is exactly why I can't farm ranger when I use the exbow. The + to hit is to random.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] July 13 2011 10:16 AM EDT

Quadra Post!

You'll never stop the ex-bow with high HP

High AC*

AdminTitan July 13 2011 10:17 AM EDT

(As shown with Xeno, he regularly hits dudemus's wall for over 150k)

You need an RoS.He doesn't have enough DM for like a 12M RoS... no one does.

QBRanger July 13 2011 10:19 AM EDT

You need an RoS.He doesn't have enough DM for like a 12M RoS... no one does.

Of course people have DMs high enough.

A 12M RoS only protects vs 4.8M levels of DM.

There are at least 6 characters that have DM's higher than that.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] July 13 2011 10:20 AM EDT

Yeah highest Steel skin in the game is 3.6 million levels ish?

I suppose maybe if people actually put real experience in steel skin.. that could be interesting >.> (Most likely not really worth it though)

AdminTitan July 13 2011 10:22 AM EDT

It needs to be on your SS caster. 12M = 6M levels of SS, + 4.8 reduction = 10.8M levels, plus let's say 2.5M of your own, not crazy, = 13.3M. Now who in the game has a 16.625M level DM? Also, 12M is a tiny tat at the top. I should really be using a 15M one, which if you do the same math with the 2.5M extra levels gives you 16M levels of SS, or you need 20M levels of DM to dispel :P, just to get rid of SS.

QBRanger July 13 2011 10:25 AM EDT

I seriously doubt that anyone will be using a RoS on a SS casting minion.

If they do, they lose the primary benefits of the RoS, that is the AS/GA axis of damage.

And while AC is great, SG works quite well and over time the RBF does work.

The SoD works good to take out the other minions in the character leaving you time to work on killing the wall.

QBRanger July 13 2011 10:30 AM EDT

Ichi's explosive shot hit tankwall [0], rogue [404520]
Ichi's explosive shot hit tankwall [176774], rogue [374040]
Ichi's explosive shot hit tankwall [32226], rogue [368846]
Ichi's explosive shot hit tankwall [104586], rogue [347077]
Ichi's explosive shot hit tankwall [0], rogue [460297]
Oldboy takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (560,768)!
Oldboy touches tankwall [247,414]

His stone skill casts for 1.6M while he has about 8M HP.
While there are hits that do no damage, his other minions get hit hard.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] July 13 2011 10:30 AM EDT

I seriously doubt that anyone will be using a RoS on a SS casting minion.

Titan is doing that right now..

QBRanger July 13 2011 10:35 AM EDT

True true.

Score 4,893,188
Power 5,530,685
MPR 3,970,988

Titan's character.

Typically RoS characters in the mid levels have a much higher score than power.

Fish Tanks

Score 7,932,060
Power 6,913,464
MPR 4,650,403

Arioch

Score 8,015,457
Power 5,734,427
MPR 4,009,120

Lord Bob

Score 8,541,044
Power 6,039,502
MPR 4,000,156

So while I give Titan kudos for attempting something new and innovative, he is not maximizing the usage of the ToE.

I have no idea how high he fights, but if he can keep a high CB, then perhaps it may serve him well.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] July 13 2011 10:38 AM EDT

^ Titans been gone for a few months now, His low score is probably due to not really fighting.


Oh and this just because:

Clay Golem shot tankwall [170105]

AdminTitan July 13 2011 10:43 AM EDT

1. I took like a 6 month break
2. This is a forging char
3. I don't have a good tattoo
4. I'm currently missing my Adam
5. My AC is relatively small
6. My weapons are tiny
7. My char is tiny

If I changed the above, the set up would do quite well :)
But, I don't use the ToE... b/c it is awful

AdminTitan July 13 2011 10:49 AM EDT

I seriously doubt that anyone will be using a RoS on a SS casting minion.

I said this about a year ago, just because no one is smart enough to do it, doesn't make it a great idea. If Slayer had stayed around and kept using his strat, we'd have probably already gotten an AC nerf.

QBRanger July 13 2011 11:01 AM EDT

But, I don't use the ToE... b/c it is awful

In the end I think most people agree.

I believe it needs another form of damage reduction.

Whether vs the RBF or GA.

AdminTitan July 13 2011 11:08 AM EDT

I totally agree, I wish I could explain why it is awful, and I think the reason purely comes down to the fact that it is a tattoo, and it scales poorly. Tattoos are so so so important in this game, more so than anything else. Because of this, I want my tattoo to either do something unique, or do something that I can't reasonably achieve through other means. Look at the RoS and ToA, they don't really do something unique, the RoS kindof does, but the main thing both of them do is effectively increase levels of ST/DX or ED. I can't do this by other means, I can't just pay 200M CBD and double my ST. What I can do; however, is pay 200M and have the right set up, and decrease incoming physical damage by even more than the ToE offers. Also, the second reason the ToE isn't seeing as much use, is because of how it scales, around 2M MPR, the ToE is pretty awesome. You're probably getting around 50% reduction, which is quite nice for like a 6M tattoo. However, you look at 15M ToEs and they might not even be getting 70% reduction. I realize the reasons behind this, but something needs to be done so that the ToE is effective, because it currently is not. Built in VA, SS aura that is undispelable, something.

QBRanger July 13 2011 11:33 AM EDT

The ToE does give SS at 1/10th its level to the wearer only. Which, given the lack of body armor and cloak does not matter much.

The other tattoos in the game are either offensive or unique.

The offensive DD tattoos work vs every character, since they are by definition offensive.

The RBF has some MR, some evasion and a nice unique non-GA vulnerable damage.

The ToA is offensive in that it gives Str/dex/PTH.

The JKF is a weaker but still offensive tattoo with some defense in the evasion aspect.

The HF is an offensive tattoo with its power now debatable.

Which leaves the lowly ToE which Titan very well summed up in his post above.

In the old days the ToE helped vs all attacks up to a cap based upon its level. I think it was 70% reduction up to the cap then 0% reduction.

Now we have a low level 2M tattoo giving 50% reduction only to physical damage while a 12M tattoo gives 66%?

Not much help for a 10M difference, and it only helps vs 1 of the 4 damage paths.

I agree with Titan that it needs a unique ability, however a damage reduction buff may or may not help.

I would think that making it work vs GA or the RBF would be just enough buff for the tattoo and I would probably go back to capping the damage it can reduce based upon its level, to make higher level ToEs much better than lower level ones.

I would naturally think a reduction vs GA would be more logical than the RBF but either way would be a boost to make it a possible useful tattoo.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] July 13 2011 11:34 AM EDT

10.5 million toe is 54% lol.. I doubt 15 million is even 60%.

Yeah defininetly need something else going for it..

AdminTitan July 13 2011 11:36 AM EDT

ToE:

3rd Ability:
You do not tire while you're opponents do, each round you battle your opponents minions get 5% weaker. ( A straight 5 percent reduction to all levels. )

Might be OP, idk, but it's interesting.

QBRanger July 13 2011 11:40 AM EDT

I would like to keep it as a defensive type thing. Perhaps adding HP at 1/2 its level to the minion wearing it may help.

Given that minion cannot use armor or a cloak, it would not be extra hp added to a wall.

A mage using it would be interesting, letting them use most xp on the DD spell.

This may be too close to what the RoS does however without the other benefits of that tattoo.

So is physical damage resistance at 50%ish + 1/2 the tattoo level in hp to the wearer equivalent to what the RoS can do.

Just thought, crap against the wall sort of things.

AdminTitan July 13 2011 11:43 AM EDT

Perhaps we could make it a reduction of just enemies DX/ST and magic. That'd be defensive, it's something quite unique as well.

Quyen July 13 2011 3:06 PM EDT

make it 1/3th or 1/4th of its level, having a ToE with a level of 15M means 7.5M extra HP, if you include a AS of quite a size and a PL battery the PL battery will come to like 20M+? and thats alot of fuel :3

QBRanger July 13 2011 3:08 PM EDT

True,

However the TSA would only work on the native, trained HP.

And it is after all using the tattoo slot.

Quyen July 13 2011 3:18 PM EDT

meh, i dont think a TSA can like recover 7M HP? :3 so then the tattoo would do more help :D

QBRanger July 13 2011 3:36 PM EDT

Angelic Devil regenerated 491,830 HP x 16 rounds = 7.87M HP.

Typical for my battles vs this opponent, but not typical for all my battles.

Quyen July 13 2011 3:45 PM EDT

meh, are all your fights 16 rounds? :3

QBRanger July 13 2011 3:49 PM EDT

You can very easily look at my recent 24 hour fight logs to see.

But one opponent goes 18 rounds, 4 others 12-14.

QBJohnnywas July 13 2011 5:03 PM EDT

I've been running with the current ToE set up for about a year and a half. I currently only have two major weaknesses, and that's the obvious tank weakness currently, the exbow and the RBF. Mostly GA isn't a problem, and for the most part mages don't touch me, except the occasional SG/electric familiar.

If you give me resistance to RBF I would be very happy. If you gave me extra HP I'd get nearly 7 mill more HP on my tattoo wearer. Resistance against GA might be a bit useful, but given that only one GA in the game has any effect on my team - and that is only because of the way two tanks fighting with a SOC on one side and GA on the other works - that wouldn't make a huge difference.

Personally I think it works fine as it is, given that it allows me, at just over 5 mill MPR take on Z's archer at nearly 6.5 mill MPR.

I'd probably change the way it grows. There really isn't much point in having one bigger than 8 mill in lvls currently. However if you allow it's effect to grow then you would have to make it weaker, or end up with uber protection against physical damage.
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