Is if finally time to get rid of Fireball Splash? (in General)


QBRanger August 25 2011 4:35 PM EDT

Peoples of CB,

CB2 has changed a bit since it was first born.

Fireball was a great spell. Due to its fast killing ability and it ramping up damage as minions perished.

However, the game has changed significantly since its beginning.

We now have the Mage Shield, suits of 400+AC, PL, TSA, and the RBF. Among other ways characters are living through missile rounds into melee.

So, is it finally time we got rid of fireball's splashback?

If you look at the highest familiars, not one out of the top 50ish is a FF.

If you look at attributes, all the top characters using it are T characters, except 1 or 2. The highest level active character using it is Nat, with an MPR of 3.5M and still growing.

Of course I suspect some will say I am asking this to only help myself out, but I have asked this many times over the years of CB, and still believe this "feature" of FB far outlived its purpose. Especially with all the damage mitigation features now available.

Thoughts?

Duke August 25 2011 4:37 PM EDT

If you mean the splash on own minion in melee, yes time to get rid of its.

QBRanger August 25 2011 4:40 PM EDT

If you mean the splash on own minion in melee

Yes

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 25 2011 4:51 PM EDT

Nat was able to defeat three of the largest chars in the game with a similar PR Fireball mage wearing heavy AC... just because it's not being used well doesn't mean it doesn't need to be balanced.

Do we really want to go back to AS AS GA FB as the default team setup?

QBRanger August 25 2011 4:57 PM EDT

Do we really want to go back to AS AS GA FB as the default team setup?

I doubt it would happen that way, especially with all the damage reduction factors in the game now.

I would at least want to see if it would happen.

Nat was able to defeat three of the largest chars in the game with a similar PR Fireball mage wearing heavy AC... just because it's not being used well doesn't mean it doesn't need to be balanced.

Was that with a single minion FB character? If so, then my suggestion would have zero impact on someone else reproducing that feat.

Also, if Nat could beat 3 characters with an equal PR character, is that so bad? I would think that character would be vulnerable to a bunch of other characters, given the PL/HP/TSA abundance throughout the game, along with the MgS.

Did that FB character do something that was unusual for a character at a similar PR?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 25 2011 4:59 PM EDT

I think the fact it was a single minion is rather relevant, removing the splash would give multi-minion teams access to the same power.

QBRanger August 25 2011 5:07 PM EDT

I think the fact it was a single minion is rather relevant, removing the splash would give multi-minion teams access to the same power.

Yes, it is very relevant.

A single minion character can concentrate the FB better than a multiminion character. Against certain characters, including your own (who uses an exbow), FB would do very well.

A multiminion character using FB would do less well, perhaps a FF would do well. I would like to be able to find out.

But FB does significantly lower damage than CoC, MM and SG. Making it far more vulnerable to GA, more easily absorbed by PL and the HP easier to regenerate via the TSA.

Windwalker August 25 2011 5:45 PM EDT

I never thought the splash on your own guy was fair. I
wanted to use a fireball when I first started but with the
"friendly fire" element I figured a SoD was a better choice.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 25 2011 5:57 PM EDT

Use a FF on a multi minion team with no splash. There's no way even a single minion can concentrate XP into FB the way a FF can.

Add that to the usual 4 minion set up (/yawn) and you get the best of both worlds.

QBRanger August 25 2011 6:10 PM EDT

But will a FF be better than an IF or FF? It's damage is the lowest vs a multiminion character per minion. Quite easy to PL. MgS lowers it further.

IDK if it would be better or /yawn.

I would love to have a chance for CB to find out.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 25 2011 6:29 PM EDT

oddly enough nothing is really stopping you, ink your tat and test it... shouldn't be hard to extrapolate what would happen without the splash damage...

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] August 25 2011 6:34 PM EDT

That would be one way to fix the alleged splash damage bug. I've used FB this NCB and it has been ok, nothing spectacular.

Reyth August 25 2011 6:35 PM EDT

I think at least the mage themselves should be exempt from the splash.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] August 25 2011 6:37 PM EDT

it is

QBRanger August 25 2011 6:38 PM EDT

The Mage is exempt.

But novice, why so adverse to giving people more viable choices?

QBRanger August 25 2011 6:42 PM EDT

And another reason I would be a poor tester:

I use GA. The splash is subject to GA. Making calculations and extrapolations rather difficult.

Another reason the splash is bad.

I really see no reason for it now. If it is removed and FF/FB characters become tops, it can easily be reinstated.

Sickone August 25 2011 6:47 PM EDT

Or, you know, we could go the middle ground and just reduce splash damage to half, temporarily, see how it goes.

Reyth August 25 2011 6:57 PM EDT

LOL not when AMF is active :P

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 25 2011 7:23 PM EDT

First off. My char had significantly less PR and it was a 2 minion setup, though with one of the minions quite a bit bigger than the other it was still about 75%-25% or thereabouts.

Next, the FB backlash has already been reduced quite a bit from what it started as. I personally like the idea of the backlash. What I've noticed though, is that FB is nearly a wet noodle in ranged.

Instead of eliminating the backlash I think the best thing to make FB more useful would be to eliminate the 40% ranged penalty that FB has. It would still have the degrading 30% penalty that both MM and FB have in ranged. I think this would make it a better and more interesting spell than just putting it in line with all the rest. Give FB a unique spot rather than just a slightly modified CoC.

Guardian August 25 2011 8:19 PM EDT

"Use a FF on a multi minion team with no splash. "

is he saying if i use a Fire Familiar i won't get hurt?
because using a FB mage i do...

please someone explain me

AdminNightStrike August 25 2011 10:36 PM EDT

Maybe FB just needs to be increased a little.

miteke [Superheros] August 25 2011 10:47 PM EDT

I also think it just needs a damage boost

PeterGriffin August 25 2011 11:37 PM EDT

What about if we just remove the friendly splash from when a FF casts FB, or the other direction, make it only do the splash from a FF, and you could make it even more complex and make it only splash the minion that it is on.

3 options there, sounds fun to me, stupid or not still sounds like fun.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 25 2011 11:39 PM EDT

I think a skill would be the best way to be able to eliminate the splash damage if that were to happen.

Demigod August 25 2011 11:48 PM EDT

I think a skill would be the best way

No. If the skill must be trained by each minion, then three minions on a four-minion team are forced to forgo traits AND XP. If the skill must be trained on the FB/FF caster, then FF are out of luck.

QBRanger August 25 2011 11:50 PM EDT

Skill on the mage. Something that allows it to control the FB essentially.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] August 26 2011 12:07 AM EDT

FF wouldn't be out of luck, you can xfer the skill of the junctioning minion.

King August 26 2011 1:42 AM EDT

You're missing the EH from your list, an armor that was designed just to make ranged DD even worse than they already are.

I wouldn't mind seeing a reduction in FB splashback in melee, completely removing it would pretty much be giving you the equivalent of a slightly lower damage CoC that fires in all rounds. If it was lowered to the point it could be managed with PL it might see some more use.

I honestly view Ranged vs Melee DD's as your choice between the ability to kill/injure a minion before melee or having a melee powerhouse, FB sans splashback would be both.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 26 2011 1:28 PM EDT

Maybe FB just needs to be increased a little.

Before that happens, CB needs to decide what the Ranged rounds are for.

Quyen August 26 2011 2:09 PM EDT

ranged rounds are for shooting stuff 8D

Reyth August 26 2011 2:18 PM EDT

I would like to play poker in the ranged rounds myself.

Warchild August 26 2011 5:34 PM EDT

Why not set-up a tourney with splash-back removed for tourney characters...easy way to test if splash has out-lived its usefulness & any other repercussions that may come with its removal

~WC~

QBOddBird August 26 2011 5:49 PM EDT

Thoughts?

this thread implies that change happens on CB

QBRanger August 27 2011 10:15 AM EDT

One can always hope!

King August 27 2011 10:38 AM EDT

Before that happens, CB needs to decide what the Ranged rounds are for.

I wish they were for doing real damage, you end up losing about half of all the rounds worth in penalties.

Reyth August 27 2011 12:25 PM EDT

Makes me want to use a HoC.

QBRanger August 28 2011 11:18 AM EDT

I just tried using the FF over the IF.

Wow, it really sucks. Lost 3 people off my list and gained 0.

The GA effect as well as the splashback killed my minions faster than most on the other characters. Even with a MgS to nullify the GA, the splashback was extremely high. This is given I do not have a lot of magical defense on my minions, such as a MgS.

In one round my minion Ichi took over 5M splashback damage.

No wonder FB is not used and the FF is basically as good as the MC.

QBRanger August 28 2011 11:21 AM EDT

Grotesque's Fireball hit [Clay Golem] [1,090,791], Na'mai'yr [1,500,414], Otis B Driftwood [1,406,858], Ichi [441,518], Samara [746,985]

Grotesque's Fireball hit [Clay Golem] [1,154,590], Na'mai'yr [1,330,436], Ichi [1,790,523], Samara [679,224]

Grotesque's Fireball hit [Clay Golem] [3,576,351], Ichi [5,066,434], Samara [1,094,029]

AdminTitan August 28 2011 2:52 PM EDT

Grotesque's Fireball hit [Clay Golem] [3,576,351]

You know how much money I have to pay to do this damage?

Phoenix [The Forgehood] August 28 2011 3:00 PM EDT

Grotesque's Fireball hit [Clay Golem] [3,576,351]
>You know how much money I have to pay to do this damage?

Ichi [5,066,434]

You know how much exp you need to take 5m splashback?

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] August 28 2011 5:34 PM EDT

Those burns look painful

QBRanger August 28 2011 5:46 PM EDT

You know how much money I have to pay to do this damage?

Yes I do, 0 CB2.

You just need a 14M level FF and that damage is all yours, with all the splashback.

Those burns look painful

Exactly, which is why FB and a FF are not viable options in CB, even with the "lowered" splashback that has occurred since the beginning of the game.

My IF does not even do 5M damage a round until there is 1 minion left. And I took that to my own character. Who in the right mind would even use a FF after the beginning of the game?

AdminTitan August 29 2011 3:30 AM EDT

You know how much exp you need to take 5m splashback?

1 minion = no flash back

I could see a very very slight change in FF. But, you have to remember, any change has to keep in mind the fact that tanks that put 250M into their weapon should do comparable, if not more damage. And that not every FF user will be multi minion...

lostling August 29 2011 1:36 PM EDT

simple matter make the FF not do damage to its holder
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