Admins should fill in wiki with ACTUAL data (in General)


Sickone September 23 2011 9:06 PM EDT

The guys that have access to the actual code that runs the game should edit the wiki with it.
There's nothing attractive about something some people might know with certainty, some people might suspect, and some people read in the wiki.
Just post the damned formulae already.
Nobody cares to try and find out which ones are increasingly right, not anymore, not at the current population level anyway.

Yes, I am annoyed and angry, don't ask me why, but my patience is near-zero right now.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] September 23 2011 9:17 PM EDT

This isn't the admins' job, its the players'.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 23 2011 9:40 PM EDT

So that's Sickone with a vote for removing the wiki, noted

QBRanger September 23 2011 9:45 PM EDT

How about 1 vote for a person that will not look at it again.

I however, really like the wiki and refer to it often.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 23 2011 10:17 PM EDT

i think the wiki is allowed due to its user submitted nature. this recent post by ns likely would extend to other areas and not just reward formula but only he can say for sure.

AdminNightStrike September 19 3:22 PM EDT
I thought they were primarily your PR vs their score. Even for those in the 6 regeneration range that holds. CB is if their score is > your PR.

Challenge bonus is (their score) / (your PR).

Base rewards are something entirely different. Figuring that out is an exercise for the reader. It's also something that hasn't changed (to my knowledge) since the early days of CB1.

People used to talk about it often.. I think there aren't many left that understand the rewards system. I figured it out long before having access to the code, but I don't think I ever put it in the wiki.

Staff shouldn't, either :)

Phaete September 23 2011 11:31 PM EDT

Very good point.
It's kinda rough of an admin to say it's a players job while they also play and know the stuff players don't know fully.

Ah well, not all are equal, but then again, the effort of 'all' is also not equal.

Just like life xD

QBRanger September 23 2011 11:35 PM EDT

It's kinda rough of an admin to say it's a players job while they also play and know the stuff players don't know fully.

As in life, there are different kinds of knowledge.

There is the common things people can know and do know.

Then there are things that the admins need to know that the players do not.

The admins in this game have learned to separate the two.

The admins post in the wiki as players. They do, have knowledge as an admin.

AdminTitan September 23 2011 11:35 PM EDT

I'd say we've started to approach a point where there is very little about the game that the players don't know that the admins do.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 23 2011 11:36 PM EDT

i have no coding experience and wouldn't know how to look at the code if i wanted to.

there are some admins with coding experience that work on the game and can see it but some of us are just here for the grunt work!

AdminTitan September 23 2011 11:36 PM EDT

How about you just show me the code and I'll decipher it. :P

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 23 2011 11:42 PM EDT

0011010000110010

Phaete September 23 2011 11:49 PM EDT

While i am sure that any admin does his/her utter best not confuse the player and admin parts, i am also sure that if you don't have a multiple personality disorder, your brain will not always make that difference before the info gets into your consciousness.

QBOddBird September 24 2011 12:29 AM EDT

I'm with Sickone, why the hell hasn't an admin posted the entirety of the game code in the wiki yet

Phoenix [The Forgehood] September 24 2011 2:51 AM EDT

I have a feeling it's partially a security issue and partially the amount of space that code would take up.
Plus admins are players who've been here a while and understand the game more so I'm not sure it's fair to say that they absolutely must know more because they're admins.

Sickone September 24 2011 4:46 AM EDT


What's with the moronic "if you know stuff for sure it's no longer worth knowing" vibe ?
Seriously ?
Were you guys brought up during the medieval Dark Ages ?
Egads...

This isn't the admins' job, its the players'.

Why ?

You have people that COULD easily just copypaste the relevant formula // code sections in the wiki, then the rest of the people could pour through it to see what it actually does, and what implications it might have.
And you also have players who found out things back when it was much easier to get accurate data, and decided "not to share". Then you have players who don't have quite correct data and decided to share the slightly wrong reverse-engineered thing anyway.

WHY should many separate individuals do what basically amounts to sacrificing game performance just to effectively work as data collection monkey then interpolate the results, because some people decided once upon a time that game formulae should not be public knowledge ?

So that's Sickone with a vote for removing the wiki, noted

No "evil" offense meant, but are you bonkers ?
That's like saying scientists should not publish their findings to the last possible decimal, and everybody should just run their own experiments to gather knowledge.
Sure, let's have the speed of light be very roughly 300000 km/s, it's a good enough approximation for everybody, right ?
:P

We already have reverse-engineered formulae that are (supposedly) pretty damn close to the reality, this would only either confirm or correct them.
KNOWING for sure how some of the basic things in CB work doesn't invalidate the value of the wiki, it does exactly the opposite, it makes it even more valuable.
Interpretations of what those formulae actually mean practically are still useful additions, comments regarding strategy are quite valid regardless, in fact, there would be very little difference except being SURE that what you read there is ACTUALLY what's really going on.

I have a feeling it's partially a security issue and partially the amount of space that code would take up.

You don't have to post ALL code in the wiki. Just the tiny section that deals with calculating item level based on NW, MPR based on XP, fight rewards based on opponent stats and self PR, stuff like that.

There would be zero security issues, and the code would be quite small.
Or, rather, that portion of the code SHOULD be tiny. But maybe it isn't ?

Sarcastic joke : Personally, I think the reason the policy of "don't actually tell people what the real code uses as a formula" is that it's damned ugly to look at (as in, aesthetically unpleasing) and whoever wrote it was ashamed of making it public.

Duke September 24 2011 6:31 AM EDT

base rewards are 5 fraction base on BA cost

AdminG Beee September 24 2011 8:36 AM EDT

Wiki: A Web site developed collaboratively by a community of users, allowing any user to add and edit content.

Transfer your characters over to the admins and they'll use your BA too :)

Sickone September 24 2011 8:40 AM EDT

Why did I expect anything out of this ?
Just forget it.
And some people still wonder why CB is in a steady decline.
Sigh.

Why do I even stick around anymore ?

AdminNightStrike September 24 2011 9:02 AM EDT

Why do you seem to think that every admin has access to the code?

QBOddBird September 24 2011 10:59 AM EDT

Why do I even stick around anymore ?

An excellent question, considering I do not remember a time when you weren't this whiny

QBRanger September 24 2011 11:08 AM EDT

Sickone,

I am very sorry you feel the way you do. Everyone gets frustrated at times in CB.

However it is a wiki and by definition it is a players made source of information. One has to take it as such.

If you have questions about the game, even after looking at the wiki, there are plenty of players, myself included, that would be happy to help you if you need to understand things.

A quick CM to any of the long time players may have prevented what made you upset.

As far as the formula, there are things that Jon and NS have decided would stay hidden. And that is how things are. We, as players, have discovered most things and others we have our thoughts.

In the future, drop me a CM and I can help or direct you to the person who knows more than myself.

I can give you an example. I tried to figure out how rewards were made. Someone posted that a person in CB had a spreadsheet about it. I CMd them and viola, got my answer. Now I fight differently.

As a community, even with our differences in politics, exbow, religion, we all try to help each other with respect to CB. People want others to stay and succeed.

I, for one, hope you do not leave and if I can do anything to help you stay, let me know.

Phaete September 24 2011 1:37 PM EDT

It looks like admins simply don't want to give up their player advantages. all excuses given are irrelevant or rebuffed.
Good example on how power corrupts.
We are playing on their playground with their rules.
Time for a new playground.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 24 2011 1:38 PM EDT

Wait wait?

We don't have access to the code... this thread has gone insane

Quyen September 24 2011 1:41 PM EDT

... if they are basic admins, how do they have acces to the code? basic admins are here to get order and give help, not changing the codes around ._.

AdminG Beee September 24 2011 1:49 PM EDT

Generalisations are all rubbish. Be careful because if you say in public that we're corrupted by power we'll fine you and if you say it in CM our software will pick up on the key words and we'll reset you.

Some admins don't even play, whilst those that use all the unfair knowledge gained from code are clearly stoopid because I don't see many at the top of the stats. I don't recall them scooping the prizes at the tourneys either.

Lochnivar September 24 2011 1:51 PM EDT

It looks like admins simply don't want to give up their player advantages. all excuses given are irrelevant or rebuffed.

See, here's the problem with that reasoning:

1) If they figured it out before becoming admins then it is up to their discretion on how disseminate the information. For example: if Nat had spent years calculating the best MPR/PR/Challenge bonus balance for character growth (before being made an admin) and decided not to share then that is fine (we all have that option). Becoming admin should not force her to then share that info.

2) If the admins do have access to info purely out of necessity for being an admin then they do not have the liberty to divulge it as they do not 'own' that information (it 'belongs' to Jon or NS)

Sure some admins might end up seeing some small advantage but I really kind of doubt it... heck, Admindudemus couldn't programme his way out of a wet paper bag.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 24 2011 4:41 PM EDT

hey now, i did teach myself basic in 1981 or so.

here i can show you my skillz getting out of that paper bag for eternity

>10 open wet paper bag
>20 jump out
>30 goto 10

AdminG Beee September 24 2011 4:45 PM EDT

syntax error dude.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] September 24 2011 4:47 PM EDT

probably because it was ti basic! ; )

Sickone September 24 2011 4:53 PM EDT

I tried to figure out how rewards were made. Someone posted that a person in CB had a spreadsheet about it. I CMd them and viola, got my answer. Now I fight differently.

So why didn't you include that data in the wiki ?

Lochnivar September 24 2011 4:57 PM EDT

So why didn't you include that data in the wiki ?

I would assume because it isn't his work...

If the author if the spreadsheet is fine with it the I guess he could, but he would be wrong just to throw it up without permission.

AdminTitan September 24 2011 5:04 PM EDT

Probably b/c of one of these reasons:

1) He's lazy (like me)
2) He wants to keep an edge (like me)

QBRanger September 24 2011 5:06 PM EDT

It is not something I figured out on my own. Therefore it is not my intellectual property to put in the wiki. If the person who I got it from wanted it in the wiki, s/he could put it in.

Things I have discovered on my own are put in the wiki.

Sickone September 25 2011 12:07 AM EDT

I had a chance to rest a bit and I can see I said a few harsh words that were not totally warranted.
So, apologies to those that feel they have been stepped on their toes by me in here.

Anyway, I realized something else too... that was one of the last few straws I am capable of carrying.
I am on the verge of stopping to care about this game. It won't be long until I stop caring altogether. And when I do, I won't even bother to say goodbye to the general public anymore (just to the clan and maybe a handful of people, if they remain around until then).

So, anyway... a pre-emptive good bye to the CB community, even if I'll still sort of be around for a while longer.
I wonder if anybody still around and outside my clan would miss me by then. Probably not.
Oh well.

Bye.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 25 2011 2:43 AM EDT

Weak... come home soon

AdminNightStrike September 25 2011 7:55 AM EDT

So two people are leaving now because we do what *EVERY* other game out there does?

Man... this job is hard.

Lochnivar September 25 2011 8:03 AM EDT

Man... this job is hard.

Yeah, but dude, rumour has it that you are making millions...

AdminNightStrike September 25 2011 8:06 AM EDT

You know, just for the record, even access to the code doesn't help all that much. The fight.tcl page is VERY hard to figure out, although I keep trying to make it easier to read. Heck, half the time, Natasha tells me something works a certain way, while I'm staring at code swearing the opposite. Guess who has historically *ALWAYS* been right? And she still hasn't seen one line of code.

AdminNightStrike September 25 2011 8:07 AM EDT

Loch - yeah, maybe I'll fly away to the hideout I bought in Tahiti with the new server funds....

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] September 25 2011 8:13 AM EDT

It looks like admins simply don't want to give up their player advantages. all excuses given are irrelevant or rebuffed.
Good example on how power corrupts.
We are playing on their playground with their rules.
Time for a new playground.

/me puts on his tinfoil hat

NS is the only one with access to the actual code if I'm not mistaken. None of the Admins, including NS himself, have any advantage over any players. If they did, I wouldn't be beating them, end of story.

Wiki's are -always- Player/Community driven. The Admins (in this case NS) don't have to write a single word in there if they don't want to, that's not their job. If they want to help out by posting certain formulas then of course they can do that, but they aren't required to and that's my point.

I personally don't think every single formula should be available in the first place, some things need to remain behind the curtains. As for what is already available in the wiki, there is a crap load of useful info, though while some of it is out of date, its still useful nonetheless.

Goku September 25 2011 8:17 AM EDT

if Admins had an advantage that large why are they not superior players? they are not the best or unstoppable so... who cares what they can see?

Phaete September 25 2011 9:10 AM EDT

easy answer. USD

Sickone September 25 2011 9:55 AM EDT

So two people are leaving now because we do what *EVERY* other game out there does?

I don't recall games like WoW having no tooltips and those nonexistent tooltips not saying how much damage each spell does or stuff like that.

Yeah, sure, they keep some things semi-secret, like drop rates and such, but nothing regarding the combat mechanics, at least not as far as I know.
And even if they would keep some things semi-secret, the sheer MASS OF PEOPLE PLAYING and contributing to the wiki makes that part moot, since even through interpolation you get data that's almost as good as the source material.

In fact, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with more than a handful of games where the basic gameplay formulae are not public knowledge (and most of the time, it's because the devs posted it).
And certainly none that have a tiny playerbase.

Damage formulae, to-hit formulae, upgrade costs, rewards caclulations - those are all basic gameplay stuff.
They should all have been made public from the word "go".

Sickone September 25 2011 9:58 AM EDT

You know, just for the record, even access to the code doesn't help all that much. The fight.tcl page is VERY hard to figure out, although I keep trying to make it easier to read. Heck, half the time, Natasha tells me something works a certain way, while I'm staring at code swearing the opposite. Guess who has historically *ALWAYS* been right? And she still hasn't seen one line of code.

Even more of a reason to make it a public thing.
When the people allegedly maintaining something don't even properly understand what the code does, you just know things are looking pretty grim.

QBRanger September 25 2011 10:09 AM EDT

Actually for myself only, one of the reason CB appealed to me was the mystery.

Every other game gave you everything upfront. I had to actually figure stuff out on my own. Which for me was exciting.

Now that we know most of how CB works that part of the attraction is lost.

I, for one, will miss you Sickone. I hope you reconsider.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 25 2011 1:22 PM EDT

/second Ranger

Yeah, sure, they keep some things semi-secret, like drop rates and such, but nothing regarding the combat mechanics, at least not as far as I know.

Everything about WoW is known. Before it goes live. Including drop rates and unreleased content.

It's all datamined from game files.

King September 25 2011 3:27 PM EDT

NS is the only one with access to the actual code if I'm not mistaken. None of the Admins, including NS himself, have any advantage over any players. If they did, I wouldn't be beating them, end of story.

This is quite true, and then you have to remember the original code was written by Jon. NS was handed control over code he didn't write, he obviously won't know every little aspect of the game but the fact he still works on it is a sign that he obviously cares about the community.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003E77">Admins should fill in wiki with ACTUAL data</a>