MY TURN TO RANT (in General)


TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 1:47 PM EST

Exbow is BULL!!!! TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL (Admin Edit)

ROUND 1
Guan Yu hit Hal [53,942]
Hal looks weaker!
Guo Jia's familiar's Magic Missile hit Annie [172,763]


ROUND 2
Hal hit Guan Yu [35]
Hal hit Guan Yu [14]
Annie takes damage from his own Magic Missile (1,313)!
Annie's Magic Missile hit Guo Jia [156,728]
Guan Yu absorbs damage [94,093]

Guan Yu hit Annie [42,943]
Annie looks weaker!
Guo Jia's familiar's Magic Missile hit Annie [194,669]


HE DOES BASICALLY NO DAMAGE! AND DRAINS ALL MY STRENGTH IN 1 SHOT THAT IS (Admin Edit)!!!

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 1:48 PM EST

wow okay can an admin add the </br>'s to my post didn't realize i would have to add them all changing to html....

Goku December 21 2011 1:49 PM EST

u mad bro?

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 1:51 PM EST

the point is he has a 1 shot in round one and drains ALL my str to the point were i do no damage.. that is so stupid its not even funny. oh and this new item would NOT fix that.. waste of time making it, when it won't even counter the item its supposed to.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 1:51 PM EST

Goku get lost if you have nothing worth while to say.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 21 2011 1:54 PM EST

First, calm yourself, second, please remember acronyms aren't exempt from the pg rule, third... oh hell just calm down.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 1:57 PM EST

Hello's shot went wide of Hal
Hi's familiar's Magic Missile hit Annie [204,590]

Hal hit Hello [208,874]
Hal shot Hello [190,902]
Hal shot Hello [188,228]
Annie takes damage from his own Magic Missile (1,313)!
Annie's Magic Missile hit Hi [84,857]
Hello absorbs damage [84,857]
Hello's shot flew past Hal
Hi's familiar's Magic Missile hit Annie [202,353]
Hello regenerated 25,774 HP

Hal hit Hello [203,986]
Hal struck deep into Hello [160,394]
Hal cries "I can't let you do that, Dave!"
Annie takes damage from his own Magic Missile (1,407)!
Annie's Magic Missile hit Hi [153,882]
Hello shot Hal [58,756]
Hal looks weaker!
Hi's familiar's Magic Missile hit Annie [233,579]
Hello regenerated 25,774 HP
R.I.P. Hello

Hal hit Hi's familiar [146]
Hal hit Hi's familiar [202]
Annie takes damage from his own Magic Missile (1,501)!
Annie's Magic Missile hit Hi [158,072]
Hi's familiar's Magic Missile hit Annie [210,385]


FIRST SHOT ALL STR GONE, YA RANGER IS RIGHT IT NEEDS TO BE FIXED

Gohan [Ka-Tet of the Serene] December 21 2011 2:31 PM EST

You are beating a dead horse here honestly, the weapon is not going to be changed. I've only been here like 8 months and the fight of the ExBow has been going on for years.

Quyen December 21 2011 2:35 PM EST

maybe your low health hal makes the exbow works at max :D

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 2:36 PM EST

health has nothing to do with a exbow.. and my hal isn't low health, my hal is bigger then you think.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 2:37 PM EST

doesn't matter anyway im done with forums, chat, everything, when my loan is done being paid back im done period.

Quyen December 21 2011 2:37 PM EST

the damage together with the current health gives a multiplier >.>

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 21 2011 2:38 PM EST

health has nothing to do with a exbow

The % of damage done compared with your current total hp affects how much drain is done. A higher % means more drain, a lower means less.

Quyen December 21 2011 2:39 PM EST

The % of damage done compared with your current total hp affects how much drain is done. A higher % means more drain, a lower means less.

exactly :D

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 2:40 PM EST

oh so 1.5mil hp means drain all my str. ALL 1.5 mil of it

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 2:40 PM EST

when i take 53k damage.

Quyen December 21 2011 2:42 PM EST

well, at 75K damage it would be capped at 2x, while he got 53K i suppose he got like 1.5x the drain he normally would have? :)

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 2:42 PM EST

SO thats 150k that should have drained not 1.5mil

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 2:44 PM EST

i have over 1.5mill hp, and over 1.6mill str, he hit me for 58k damage, so he drains 1.5mill str that makes no sense AT ALL

Quyen December 21 2011 2:56 PM EST

hey, shooting a random fireball makes sense? :D

QBRanger December 21 2011 3:33 PM EST

While Nat has a point it is hardly an adequate defense of this stupid item.

I have 22 million HP and decent (174) AC.

A hit of 116k with a x10+k exbow removes all 10m strength.

One can have the bestest defense and yet get totally drained with a x10k exbow.

The only real defense is one hit via PL.

And if they attack you, as I stated in a prior post, you are hosed as you get no FULL counterattack.





Quyen December 21 2011 3:33 PM EST

Mageblender! :D

QBRanger December 21 2011 3:38 PM EST

No Q.

Just a stupid abusive item that some people continue to defend beyond all RPG logic.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 3:39 PM EST

exactly, this is one of the reasons this game is dying. because items such as the exbow are refused to be fixed.. who wants to play a broken game.

Quyen December 21 2011 3:39 PM EST

or or drop 400M CBD into DB'S! :P

Quyen December 21 2011 3:41 PM EST

exactly, this is one of the reasons this game is dying. because items such as the exbow are refused to be fixed.. who wants to play a broken game.

tbh, i actually do. the fun of broken games is trying to counter the broken.
And do not say there is no counter, there are tons of counters which are just plainly to expensive to do, or that mixes up a whole strat >.>

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 3:41 PM EST

that is a horrible argument Q.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 3:42 PM EST

If I have spend 400M on DBs to counter, that's not a counter it's a waste of money.

Quyen December 21 2011 3:42 PM EST

was more like a idea, getting huge DB's gives them less chance to hit.

Quyen December 21 2011 3:43 PM EST

If I have spend 400M on DBs to counter, that's not a counter it's a waste of money.

with 400M DB's i think they miss atleast 4 of the 5 shots.. that does make a decent counter to it :) otherwise just go mageblender and get a SF.

QBRanger December 21 2011 3:46 PM EST

Q,

I have 275 DBs and get hit by tanks with exbows in the early rounds.

Since the drain is based on damage compared to HP AND the x on the weapon.

It is impossible to counter and item where 1 or 2 hit does that much devastation to a character.

I could train more decmx but lose HP.

I could use a ToA for more dex but lose AC

I could use a 10m EC to counter an obviously broken item but really???



Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] December 21 2011 3:47 PM EST

Or change familiars.. the choice to go Hal just baffles me.

Gohan [Ka-Tet of the Serene] December 21 2011 3:48 PM EST

+1 Xeno. This is not me agreeing that the ExBow is not a broken weapon however.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 3:48 PM EST

exactly what I had in mind Ranger, but yours sounds so much nicer then mine did.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] December 21 2011 3:51 PM EST

I have 275 DBs and get hit by tanks with exbows in the early rounds.

You get hit because of dex cth, not the same

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 3:53 PM EST

Xeno, what does that have anything to do with anything? whether it was a ToA and my minion a tank, or a Hal and my minion a enchanter.

the Outcome would be the same. the exbow would tear my tank apart just as it does the Hal. my hal dodges his shots, and when he does hit the first time ALL str is gone. that would happen either way as Ranger has even shown.

So Change it to a SF or EF or whatever, thats not the point either, I want to run a Hal. Why should I have to run a mage, why can't the exbow be fixed.

Gohan [Ka-Tet of the Serene] December 21 2011 3:56 PM EST

The quote "there's many fish in the sea" comes to my mind. There's very very few unfarmable people in all of CB2. You're losing to a specific weapon that also, very few people even use. Find people that aren't using the ExBow and fight them?

QBRanger December 21 2011 3:57 PM EST

Yes

But when 1 or 2 hits nuke a minion that is a nice thing....for exbow abusers.

How do people propse I raise my dex enough to counter a 3m str 7m dex exbow user?

That can use EBs when I am forced to use DBs.

This is just a stupid discussion. I'm tired of banging my head against the wall.

I just now accept I will lose to those that have a good strat and abuse the exbow.

Others just leave CB.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] December 21 2011 3:57 PM EST

You can run a hal if you like, but relying on pure ranged physical damage is asking to be eaten up by the exbow. The weapon is what it is, accept the weakness your strat has or learn to counter it. I don't know how many different counters have been suggested in the past that no one wants to use because it interferes with what they want to run.

You got a weakness to something, find a way around it.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 4:04 PM EST

LOL really? you call those solutions? 400M dbs, 10m EC. Don't use a tank.

1 hit is all it takes.. its not an exbow its a golden gun.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 4:04 PM EST

oh and a side note, my hal does more damage in melee rounds then ranged rounds.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 4:05 PM EST

not sure why but every report I do damage in melee my avg damage is always more.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] December 21 2011 4:21 PM EST

Because ranged damage does more damage in melee, but fires every other round except for the SoD.

PL, EC, DBs, more then one damage source, fight exbow with exbow. Those are solutions, if you don't want to use them then that's on you.

The exbow is in the game the way it is, it doesn't seem to be on the table for change as of this moment, nor has it been for the last few years. Either flash a crap load of cash at NS and tell him to adjust the way the drain works, or accept how the game is now and continue to play.

Or leave. Your choice.

Atomicboy [The Knighthood] December 21 2011 4:29 PM EST

Or use an exbow yourself. I hear they are available to all players. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. diversify your damage sources.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 21 2011 4:29 PM EST

the randomness of the exbow to hit is a problem on both ends, nearly impossible to guarantee a hit, and just as hard to avoid them...

AdminTitan December 21 2011 4:33 PM EST

the randomness of the exbow to hit is a problem on both ends, nearly impossible to guarantee a hit, and just as hard to avoid them...

This, along with the fact that they are either useless or awesome.

Anyone who thinks the exbow is "OP" doesn't quite understand the game enough. Anyone who thinks it is a poorly designed weapon and that it should be reworked understands the game just right :)

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 4:42 PM EST

whatever, and item that hits once and drains all str and renders a tank useless has nothing do do with understanding the finer points of the game.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 21 2011 4:45 PM EST

The Hal has almost as much PTh NW in it's weapon than the NW of the tat, the exbow trumping it is important to the game.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 4:51 PM EST

its not just the hal it renders uselss it render all tanks useless.

AdminTitan December 21 2011 4:52 PM EST

And what does it do to mages/walls/RoBF users... huh?

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 4:54 PM EST

I don't care anymore, it broke, needs to be fixed.. you can play devils advocate all day and it won't change the fact its BROKE.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 5:24 PM EST

So is 100% BCon the ELBow.

So is a raft of other things in the game.

Titan nailed it spot on above;

Anyone who thinks the exbow is "OP" doesn't quite understand the game enough.

It's not OP.

Anyone who thinks it is a poorly designed weapon and that it should be reworked understands the game just right :)

It's badly designed. Binary win/lose switches are teh suxxor. The EXBow in itself is needed in CB.

Binary Win/Lose stuff, isn't.

Or I'll have Finger of Death back please.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 5:26 PM EST

anyone that thinks 1 hit of 58k damage should drain 1.5mill str when the person has 1.5mill hp doesn't understand what the word OP means.

1000% drain.. yea.....

QBRanger December 21 2011 5:33 PM EST

I must be a complete idiot with respect to CB as I believe the exbow is very OP for what it can do for its NW and the amount of xp needed to utilize it properly.

Yes, I must be the stupidest person in all of CB.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 21 2011 5:36 PM EST

I believe what they're talking about is Over Powered in terms of an items ability to be good in all situations and without counter...

Decay by your definition is the most OP ability of all since it can have a tiny team take out the largest team given circumstance in it's favor.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 5:36 PM EST

ELBows let you beat anyone. Their 100% BCTH is OP.

EXbows don't help a jot versus non Tanks.

There are also multiple counters for the EXBow.

It's still badly designed though.

AdminTitan December 21 2011 5:36 PM EST

Ranger:

New weapon: 1/100 fights randomly you'll get an auto win

OP?
Poor Design?

AdminTitan December 21 2011 5:36 PM EST

Better make that a tattoo... lol

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 5:36 PM EST

Hey Ranger we should start a club!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 5:38 PM EST

Better make that a tattoo... lol

DD! Bring back Finger of Death!

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 5:39 PM EST

Titan, neither thats just stupid.

wait can i say that or am i getting another fine.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 5:40 PM EST

Stupid =/= Poor Design?

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 5:42 PM EST

no neither... poor design would be more believable 1/10 battle auto win, op would be 1/3 battles auto win.

AdminTitan December 21 2011 5:43 PM EST

Ok, let me make this a little clearer for you

50% chance auto win,
50% chance auto lose


OP, or bad design?

QBRanger December 21 2011 5:43 PM EST

1) ELB does NOT win 100%
2) OP is not being used properly. For the some OP means great vs all.

I guess the MgS at +2% per + would not be considered OP according to most in this thread as it does not help vs everyone???? Yet at 1% most thread railed on it as OP.

C'mon. For the NW and the xp needed, it is wildly OP for its effect.

AdminTitan December 21 2011 5:44 PM EST

There's a reason games are fun, and a reason why in strategy games you hear words like "coinflip" used in bad connotation. Something can be insanely poorly designed without actually being OP.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 5:44 PM EST

Why 1/3? Why not go for every battle? Or 1/5. Why isn't an autowin 1/10 OP?

Autowin is auto win?

Why is 1/10 winning poor design, but 1/100 isn't?

The design issues are a little deeper than the actual numbers used.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 5:47 PM EST

1) ELB does NOT win 100%

Bar the AoI, what can you do to effect 100% BCTH? What impact does 100% BCTH have?

Does hitting first in CB have any advantage?

Does hitting first, coupled with 100% BCTH that is more often than not, unreducable synergise well?

I guess the MgS at +2% per + would not be considered OP according to most in this thread as it does not help vs everyone????

There was a reason it was limited to 50% max.

QBRanger December 21 2011 5:50 PM EST

Look at all the ELB users who lose.

The RoS works great. High AC does great. A jxn jiggly works perfectly.

And thanks for making my point about the MGS. It was OP and did nada vs physical or GA.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 5:53 PM EST

The MGS was OP?

I missed the memo.

As for high AC, you miss the point. *What* doesn't it do well versus?

Hell High AC is one of the most OP things in the game. Even with Decay, SG and the Vorpal Weapons.

AdminTitan December 21 2011 5:54 PM EST

High AC is about 10x more OP than the exbow. Which is why you aren't farming me, and only one person is, yet where's the rallying against it?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 21 2011 5:56 PM EST

AC is OP

exbow is just a bad item that needs reworking. Bad in multiple ways.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 5:57 PM EST

how much NW you have invested in that HIGH AC, I bet not nearly as little as it takes to gimp a tank with an exbow.

AdminTitan December 21 2011 5:58 PM EST

1 person farming me, and I have like 1/5 of Ranger's NW. The exbow is it's definition makes it impossible to stop all people from farming you no matter the NW you put in it.

AdminTitan December 21 2011 5:59 PM EST

in its*

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 6:00 PM EST

you didn't answer my question HOW MUCH NW you have in your HIGH AC set

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 6:00 PM EST

High AC is about 10x more OP than the exbow. Which is why you aren't farming me, and only one person is, yet where's the rallying against it?

I tried, when Slayer reached Immortalitly.

I vaguey remember being mercilessly heckled and verbally slapped down for daring to do so. ;)

So I stopped.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 6:01 PM EST

213 MILLION! LOL

AdminTitan December 21 2011 6:01 PM EST

Ranger has 800M LOLOLOL

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 6:03 PM EST

LOL AND YOUR A MAGE !!! exbow wouldn't farm you OMG!!!! LOL ARE YOU KIDDING ME

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 6:03 PM EST

Oh, in case anyone questions the stability of my stance on the EXBow, here's an excert from my 2010 'big list'.

Some items need balancing. The EXBow for one. Binary Win/Loss switches suck, and the EXBow is one of these. Have a large enough one (or hit with a large enough one) and you Win. Don't have a large enough one (or hit) and you lose. The ELBows 100% BCTH is too much, but that will get it's own point later. The MoD is fast becoming the default Melee Weapon, dealing double damage versus the most common and largest trained spell in the game, able to work with the SoC and the only thing in the game that bypasses PL. On top the PL bypass has the added benefit of allowing any VA you have to work on PL teams, that the PL would otherwise stop. It's the top damage dealing Mace class weapon and 1 handed so has the lowest penalties when used with a Shield.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] December 21 2011 6:04 PM EST

So you just proved the exbow is useless vs more then half of the teams on CB, am I mistaken?

AdminTitan December 21 2011 6:04 PM EST

LOL AND YOUR A MAGE !!! exbow wouldn't farm you OMG!!!! LOL ARE YOU KIDDING ME

It can't farm me, to much AC

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 6:08 PM EST

you don't get it xeno, i don't care that it won't damage mages. my issue is its draining OF ALL STR from weapon users with 1 hit.

Im saying the drain needs to be proportionate to the damage more reasonably, not drain 1.5mil str with 1 hit only dealing 58k damage.. gimping a tank with one shot is the problem. maybe it should be linear say 58k damage drains 58k str.. instead of 1.5mill

It is op in that respect and that respect only.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 6:10 PM EST

someone hitting ranger for 2 mil, drains 2mil str.. at least he would still have some and not be gimped.

AdminTitan December 21 2011 6:12 PM EST

They would never do enough damage L3go, and remember even half ST drain only results in like a 40% reduction in damage.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 6:13 PM EST

it was an idea, and it still better then how it works now. say double drain... hit for 100k damage drain 200k str.. anything is better then 1 hit kill.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] December 21 2011 6:20 PM EST

The weapon needs to be reworked entirely, doing it that way would just make it more worthless then it already is.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 21 2011 6:34 PM EST

Reposting my suggestion for how to fix up the problem with the exbow.

1. Remove Archery from the game, including all negative affects associated with not having archery and reduce all bows bth by 40, this means specifically bows that were affected by archery.

2. Remove the % drain increase part from the ex/axbow and instead set it to a flat 75% no matter how large or small the x is. This number was chosen because it happens to be the point where you lower damage by 50%. You also keep the damage modifier where if it does a lower % of hp from the base amount the % drain is smaller and vice versa.

3. Add in a new skill called Sniper, Hawkeye, whatever you would like to call it. This still adds 40 bth to any ranged weapon equipped by the minion when trained to the full amount which is 1/5 of str. (basically this is archery but for all ranged weapons and it has no downside for not using it)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 6:38 PM EST

Why bother increasing the 'X' of the EXBow then? It'll never be used to actually kill anyone, all you need to do is hit.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 6:38 PM EST

You also keep the damage modifier where if it does a lower % of hp from the base amount the % drain is smaller and vice versa.

Learn to read GL....

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 6:41 PM EST

that sounds so complicated.. so how much str would i loose in the above situation? roughly just an eyeball...

AdminTitan December 21 2011 6:44 PM EST

75% per hit.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 21 2011 6:46 PM EST

You would lose 87% of your str if you are hit for 58k and have 2 mil hp.

AdminTitan December 21 2011 6:48 PM EST

I'm too lazy to apply the modifier :P

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 6:50 PM EST

You would lose 87% of your str if you are hit for 58k and have 2 mil hp.

That seems a tad too high.

Shouldn't a 58K hit versus a 2M Hit Point pool suffer a reduction in drain? :/

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 6:50 PM EST

See you dont' get it.. that gimps a tank after 1 hit. if i have 1.5 mill str and loose 75% of it for a 58k, i would only have 375k str left.. effectly taking my damage from 200k ish to what 30k if im lucky thats wrong.. 1 hit is all it takes to gimp a tank still.. thats the problem all together.. atleast my way it would take multiple hits to gimp a tank.. taking 2mil from ranger each hit would take 4 hits to gimp him.. instead of 1.. what your proposing is removing a 75% of a tanks str in one hit.. so bad.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 6:52 PM EST

so after one hit from your idea on ranger he would loose 8 mill str.. if he had 10mill

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 6:53 PM EST

well he would have 2.5mil str left.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 6:54 PM EST

and my way it would take 4 hits to do the same damage to his str..

AdminTitan December 21 2011 6:54 PM EST

effectly taking my damage from 200k ish to what 30k if im lucky thats wrong

No, it takes it from 200k from to about 70k. ST doesn't work linearly, 4x as much ST gives about double damage. And remember, you're doing very little to limit this drain. I'm not sure the exact numbers are perfect, but remember, you can't make it worthless.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 7:00 PM EST

how can you not see that reducing my damage 130k with one shot is OP. draining 7.5mil strength in on shot is OP.

I get hit once from an exbow and I do 35 damage after.. COME ON. i do 200k +/- damage avg. taking it down to 35 with one shot is over kill and it still will be if you drain 75% of str per hit.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 7:02 PM EST

the strength removed should be tied to the damage done. just jacking 1.25mil str for a 58k hit is ridiculous.

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 21 2011 7:03 PM EST

I actually posted in a previous thread about a fixed % drain.

"The drain would have to be round based and not hit based in my opinion so that even if you hit 3 times in a round it only drains a % once.

A 50% drain of STR would take 2 hits to cut damage in half.

Assuming one hit in 6 ranged rounds, an archer that starts off doing 1mil damage in round 1 would do ~2.7mil damage total instead of 6mil.

Because that would reduce damage to 1/8 of its original by the end of range and because STR also works defensively as a means to reduce physical damage I could see the drain being 25%.

This way if the exbow lands a hit every ranged round for 6 rounds you would start melee doing approx. half the damage you would have with no exbow. Also, as an outlier, if you were starting off doing 1mil a hit and only landing one hit, instead of 6mil damage you would do ~4.1mil in ranged."

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 7:03 PM EST

I once did over 75% (IIRC) of a Targets HPs, with a base DD.

Now that's OP! :P

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 21 2011 7:04 PM EST

I'm going to give you another example since you used ranger I will use him, and myself since I know the stats my axbow does. Against no AC it does about 375k damage max in 1 hit. My x modifier is 9098, I have 3.86 mil str, 18 leadership and BG +16 effective. That is a fair amount of investment though with low str still due in large part to my small character.

If I were to hit ranger's char with my axbow for a base damage of 375k, he gets about 30% damage reduction due to his AC so the resulting damage he takes would be about 262.5k. Working from this his drain to str (pretending its an exbow as it functions exactly the same) would be about 35.8%. This would mean that I would drain him from 10 mil down to 6.42 mil. Each additional hit will reduce about 36% as well. It would take a very large amount of hits to drain him down to null str.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 7:05 PM EST

kinds lost me in there with some of the numbers but i like it.. i totally agree, you can't gimp a tank after 1 hit, it MUST require more. my way it would take 4 hits, 1 hit a round 4 rounds, your way is very similar.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] December 21 2011 7:05 PM EST

What would you say if someone hit you with 3m EC, it has the same effect, plus no way around it and could be done at about half your MPR.

Exbow has counters, use them or be stubborn.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 7:07 PM EST

LOL nat you drained 40% of his str in one hit. thats to much.

QBRanger December 21 2011 7:10 PM EST

I would say great they are putting a large investment in EC.

At Lego's level 3m EC is a massive investment. Which can be overcome with improved items or a near max tat or GS.

But the xp investment for EC is not OP compared to the effect.

AdminTitan December 21 2011 7:11 PM EST

LOL, Ranger takes 40% of peoples *HP* in a round, that's so OP...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 7:12 PM EST

Because you can only gain XP in game.

Weapon stats you can buy with USD...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 21 2011 7:12 PM EST

40%? Zenai was doing 25m+ damage a round

AdminTitan December 21 2011 7:13 PM EST

Yeah, I was being modest... didn't want to make outrageous claims.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 21 2011 7:13 PM EST

At Lego's level 3m EC is a massive investment. Which can be overcome with improved items or a near max tat or GS.

Its about the same size of DM or AMF at this level.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 7:14 PM EST

Xeno, if they have 3mil into ec they dont' have much exp elsewhere, and a 3mil exp EC isn't much .. what lets see.. one sec

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 7:15 PM EST

I once did over 75% (IIRC) of a Targets HPs, with a base DD.

Should I add that that is regardless of the size of HP targetted.

So, I didn't hit a 100 HP target for 75 damage. ;)

I'm patiently waiting for another bit of Leadership gear to be introduced, so I can one shot anyone in the game. ;)

WIN!

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 7:15 PM EST

HA 3mil exp only gives you 145k EC with my +9 corn, and 32mil exp gives you only 1.5mil EC.. so it takes alot of exp to do that.. the exbow takes nothing .

AdminTitan December 21 2011 7:17 PM EST

Maybe you should read this again L3go:

Exbow has counters, use them or be stubborn.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 7:18 PM EST

maybe you should fix the item that many people have proved is broken and needs to be fixed. stop telling me what to do this is a discussion is it not.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 7:18 PM EST

the exbow takes nothing

Especially if you buy it with USD.

/flogging that dead horse

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 21 2011 7:18 PM EST

I'm patiently waiting for another bit of Leadership gear to be introduced, so I can one shot anyone in the game. ;)

Its not gonna happen precisely because of this. No finger of death for you.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 7:18 PM EST

that many people have proved

What proof?

AdminTitan December 21 2011 7:19 PM EST

stop telling me what to do this is a discussion is it not.

This is funny

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 7:19 PM EST

Its not gonna happen precisely because of this. No finger of death for you.

:'(

Kill joy. :P

(I'm not surprised! I would be dead set against it! ;) But, oh, it would be fun!)

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] December 21 2011 7:23 PM EST

3m EC is not a large investment at his level at all. Like I said, he could be nuked with EC at half his MPR, and have the same issue hes having now, with no counter what so ever. The exbow has counters, that's all I've been trying to say.

Its all about perspective.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] December 21 2011 7:26 PM EST

3m level EC, not 3m xp into EC -_-

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 7:28 PM EST

i posted both.. and to hit 3mill EC would take over 64mil exp which is almost all the exp i have .. so its not that easy.

Xenogard [Chaotic Serenity] December 21 2011 7:29 PM EST

You got your math wrong

AdminTitan December 21 2011 7:30 PM EST

3M levels, not 3M effect, it's 36M xp. About half what you have... or you know, you could just use a FF or SF

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 21 2011 7:31 PM EST

its 1/4 of the exp at this level

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 7:31 PM EST

what does the stupid level of the EC matter when the effect is the drain part.. lol

AdminTitan December 21 2011 7:34 PM EST

3M levels = 1.5M effect, enough to nuke his ST and DX...

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 7:37 PM EST

you just proved my point it would take 32mill exp to nuke my hal but a exbow does it in one hit.. with minimal nw. you dont' see a problem with that. also i only have 78mil exp so thats almost half.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 7:38 PM EST

As I've said form day one, no one battled an eyelid at (oh my god, you know, I can no longer remembe the name... Maybe it was Velvet Pickle or Peanut...) when he used his 4 EC team to neuter and fight up against *much* higher Tanks.

With minimal NW.

It was all deemed a glorious use of strategy and game mechanics.

Didn't help him a jot when facing mages, but I hear the EXBow is very good at that.

Oh, wait...

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 7:43 PM EST

you just proved my point more, using huge ec to fight up high is a strat, he had to use 4 ECs as you stated to do it. using tons of exp to do it.

an exbow to drain those same people in 1 hit with no effort barely any NW is dumb. can you DM and exbow?

again you bring up mages, i dont' give a rats behind about the mages, i care about the amount of drain it had on tanks.... jesus.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 21 2011 7:44 PM EST

EC EC EC ToA Archer w/MsK (seekers at the time) was my version of that... heaps good fun

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 7:44 PM EST

has on tanks*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 7:44 PM EST

Using 1 massive ELBow to deal 25m+ damage per round and kill everyone is dumb.

What's your point?

AdminTitan December 21 2011 7:44 PM EST

Using a strategy that does practically nothing to stop a very hard counter to it and then complaining about it is dumb..

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 21 2011 7:48 PM EST

So your entire argument so far is that the exbow is too extreme, and yet you're unwilling to acknowledge that other items are equally extreme in effect. The items the exbow counters have similarly extreme nature, and were it's effect to be diminished to the levels you've implied you'd like to see the reality is that it would cease to be and effective counter.

I think there is a lot of agreement that alterations to it's functionality would be in everyone's interest, and it's certainly on the list of things that are being discussed, heck Nat has a really nice series of changes all mapped out that I think would annoy everyone to a level that could be pretty well called fair. Add to her idea an item that generates str in melee and call it good!

Ranting doesn't do much but make noise, and let off steam... dear lord how I know that... poor NS.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 7:51 PM EST

at what point did I say that other items aren't possibly as 'extreme' and need fxing? nowhere.

yes, the elb may need fixing, yes, other items may need fixing too. My issue is with the exbow. this thread is about the exbow.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 7:51 PM EST

So are we getting a changemonth soon?

;)

As I promised far in the past, I'd put everything on my account up for sale here to fund one!

But I've since given all my gear away. :(

AdminTitan December 21 2011 7:53 PM EST

this thread is about the exbow.

I don't want to talk about spending, this is about taxes. I don't want to talk about the cost of war, this is about defending our borders.

The only question I have, are you a Republican or a Democrat? :)

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 7:59 PM EST

see look at this crap now your making fun of me. wow some admin.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 8:01 PM EST

A, the point is you can't tunnel vision stuff like this.

CB is quite intertwined. Tweak a single thing, and you throw the rest out of balance.

Nerf the EXBow and you make the ELBow even more powerful.

CB has a fragile balance, and we really need to consider the 'bigger picture'.

AdminTitan December 21 2011 8:03 PM EST

It's a completely relevant position, saying we're talking about the exbow is as bad as doing one of those things above. You can't just consider something in an vacuum, it's very bad for design.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 21 2011 8:23 PM EST

I do understand that GL, but no item should one shot kill anyone in any strat.. the ELB is just as useless as any other weapon after the tank has been hit by 1 hit of the exbow. it needs to be toned down, plain and simple. im not replying to this thread again.


if you can't see that a 58k hit from a same level tank to tank attack, and 58k of damage drains the tanks str so much their first attack does 35 damage thats jacked up. from 200k to 35 not 35k 35 with 1 hit. something is wrong. draining 95-99% str with one hit is overkill.

if you honestly believe thats 'fair' then whatever.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 8:34 PM EST

If you don't have any AMF and a 3 20 HP Decay team drains your Single Minions health to nothing in a turn, well isn't that a lack on your part?

You can't train AMF? Easy. Use a 20 HP minion in front with an AoI! ;)

Or does Decay need to be redesigned? I can do some seriously OP damage with Decay. There's a reason it's not allowed in most Tournaments. ;)

And all for a paltry base XP cost. It doesn't even require 36M XP, or enough CBD/USD to get to x4000.

I mean, you don't even need to upgrade it at all...

And I thought massive AC was OP. Decay ignores even that! Base XP versus 200M Networth and a RoS and XP into SS.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 21 2011 8:37 PM EST

but no item should one shot kill anyone in any strat..

No, it shouldn't.

But luckily the EXBow doesn't do that, as it can't hurt Mages or AS/GA or RoBF teams.

It is a hard counter for Tanks though, and the binary nature of it sucks.

Make it worth upgrading. And make it part of the comparative testing the rest of CB is.

But OP it isn't. Especially as there are ways to reduce its effectiveness.

If that's what you wish to do.

Or you can just /shrug ignore it and take your lumps when you face one.

Kefeck [BlackSmith] December 21 2011 8:50 PM EST

if you can't see that a 58k hit from a same level

That's a very hard hitting ex-bow for your level.

something is wrong. draining 95-99% str with one hit is overkill.

Do you have anything for defense?

Josh [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 21 2011 10:26 PM EST

I notice when I post about draining 50% a round and provide data I'm told that you like it.

Nat posts about draining 40% a round and it's too much.

It takes 75% drain to cut damage in half (that's two 50% drains). It would take Nat landing three 40% drains (~78.5% drain of strength) to cut damage in half.

You're too focused on the STR number and not damage. If you do 1mil damage with 10mil STR, you'll do 500k damage with 2.5mil STR, and 250k with 625k STR. That's still 250k damage after losing 9.4mil STR.

Quyen December 22 2011 9:58 AM EST

^

+
40%? Zenai was doing 25m+ damage a round
Using 1 massive ELBow to deal 25m+ damage per round and kill everyone is dumb.

Lies and Lies!
he did just 15M+- if he could quad hit :D

Lochnivar December 22 2011 9:59 AM EST

Nope... he did over 20mil + back in the day... which is how my GA killed him.

Quyen December 22 2011 10:00 AM EST

oooh lol.

QBRanger December 22 2011 10:07 AM EST

And guess what?

Someone was able to beat Z's great über archer without using the exbow.

In fact, 4 or 5 characters used to beat him without using the exbow. And not all were GA users.

Quyen December 22 2011 11:14 AM EST

why do i see some random word after Z's and before archer?

Someone was able to beat Z's great über archer without using the exbow.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 22 2011 11:39 AM EST

C&Ped from Word.

AdminNightStrike December 22 2011 12:48 PM EST

So I actually read most of this thread. It's interesting. ~160 posts and counting, and I have yet to see cohesive arguments against the exbow.

Why do I say that?

I see a lot of this:

The exbow is broken! Everyone knows it! We've proven it!

What proof?


A big problem here is that people don't understand one of the fundamental aspects of any game -- more general use = weaker / expensive; more specific use = stronger / cheaper.

The ELB is useful against anyone. It's also extremely powerful. Therefore, it's expensive. The Exbow can only be used against specific minions in certain situations. It's completely useless in most situations. Therefore, it's cheaper.

Saying it's wrong that the exbow can neuter a tank in one hit is as fallacious as saying it's wrong that an ELB can kill a minion in one hit.

In project management, there is a saying -- Time, Cost, Quality... pick two. Consider a parallel here: Applicability, Cost, Power... pick two.

If the Exbow was different in that it applied negative drain to the primary stat of a minion -- hp/wall, dd/mage, st/tank -- then yes, it would be horrible. But it doesn't. It can only attack a single minion type.


The days of being able to craft a single team that is unbeatable by anyone else are gone.


BTW, Merry Christmas. Thanks for uglifying the forums in spite of the holiday season.

Quyen December 22 2011 12:57 PM EST

people are bending the game to their strat, you have to bend your strat around the game :D

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 23 2011 9:12 AM EST

A big problem here is that people don't understand one of the fundamental aspects of any game -- more general use = weaker / expensive; more specific use = stronger / cheaper.

The ELB is useful against anyone. It's also extremely powerful. Therefore, it's expensive. The Exbow can only be used against specific minions in certain situations. It's completely useless in most situations. Therefore, it's cheaper.

NS, if only CB worked like this...

Whip versus Elbow.

The Whip is more specific (can only work in the Melee Rounds) while the ELbow is more general (works in all rounds). Yet the ELBow is cheaper and the whip is more expensive, while being far, far weaker. ;)

In CB, 'Extremely Powerful' also equals 'Cheapest'.

Which I have *long* thought was utterly, well, backwards.

Quyen December 23 2011 9:46 AM EST

thats where rarity jumps in :D

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 23 2011 10:13 AM EST

What's rarity?

All we have are two tiers of items.

The 'Best' and the 'Cheapest', worth purhcasing and using.

All the rest, which is junk and not worth touching. Let alone investing in.

Quyen December 23 2011 10:44 AM EST

All the rest, which is junk and not worth touching. Let alone investing in.

that's no-rarity stuff :D

AdminNightStrike December 23 2011 6:29 PM EST

I know exactly what you mean, GL. The cost to upgrade an item goes down as the base damage goes up. It's stupid.

However, do a few things... 1) ignore non rares. 2) Ignore the issue of rare items to begin with. We all know. 3) Look at cost as being "the cost to get the desired effect."

For instance, the Exbow upgrade curve is VERY expensive. But, you don't need as much 'x' in it as you do with other ranged weapons. You also don't need as much PTH in it, because you don't have to hit as often, which helps a little bit to offset the PTH curve being horrendous.

The ELB appropriately needs a higher x and + to insta-kill minions. Those high values are easier to get to.

Think of "effect" as more "what happened in the fight" instead of "what's the value of x and +".


I'm glad people are now seeing why CB is so hard to titrate.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 23 2011 6:47 PM EST

But, you don't need as much 'x' in it as you do with other ranged weapons.

Only becuase it's not really a weapon. ;)

You don't use an EXBow to kill someone, it's only a STR sapping bit of gear.

Then again, this is a vicious circle. Lower the X to ELBow costs, and you could use it to kill people.

QBRanger December 23 2011 7:51 PM EST

If the exbow is just fine, then please change the mageseeker to a DD leeching item. With the same upgrade and effectiveness of the exbow.

That is able to drain 10+M DD in 1 hit of less than 200k if the x is over 10k.

Saying the exbow is just fine is like saying the MgS was just fine at 1% per +.

It is sort of like how the Supremes described pornography. I know it when I see it. And out of all the RPGs I have played in the past, there is no equivalent item in any.

But, you don't need as much 'x' in it as you do with other ranged weapons.

There are almost no primary damage minions on any other character I fight that I kill in just 1 round. Or most in even 2-3.

While there are plenty of counters to the ELB, there are maybe 1 vs the exbow that works, for only 1 hit.

With 10k x, AC does not matter. AC helps a lot vs the ELB, IE vs Titan, each hit of my overpowered ELB does 300k damage at most.

QBRanger December 23 2011 8:11 PM EST

For those doubters:

Mick Taylor hit Caharin with Vengeance of the 4 Winds [394,924]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [143,667]
Mick Taylor hit Caharin with Vengeance of the 4 Winds [225,446]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [143,667]
Mick Taylor hit Caharin with Vengeance of the 4 Winds [242,248]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [143,667]
Mick Taylor hit Caharin with Vengeance of the 4 Winds [108,147]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [108,147]


Mick Taylor hit Caharin with Vengeance of the 4 Winds [155,777]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [143,667]
Mick Taylor hit Caharin with Vengeance of the 4 Winds [114,502]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [114,502]
Mick Taylor shot Caharin with Vengeance of the 4 Winds [63,877]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [63,877]
Mick Taylor shot Caharin with Vengeance of the 4 Winds [66,319]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [66,319]
Mick Taylor shot Caharin with Vengeance of the 4 Winds [100,722]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [100,722]


Mick Taylor hit Caharin with Vengeance of the 4 Winds [64,996]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [64,996]
Mick Taylor hit Caharin with Vengeance of the 4 Winds [164,651]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [143,667]
Mick Taylor shot Caharin with Vengeance of the 4 Winds [301,727]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [143,667]
Mick Taylor hit Caharin with Vengeance of the 4 Winds [246,827]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [143,667]
Mick Taylor shot Caharin with Vengeance of the 4 Winds [41,316]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [41,316]
Mick Taylor hit Caharin with Vengeance of the 4 Winds [361,371]
Divine Shield absorbs damage [143,667]

And I do not believe AC is overpowered. As it takes a lot of NW but also has a lot of negatives. If you want to chat about OP, armor proficiency for the xp is overpowered. But that is a minor grip compared to the exbow.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 23 2011 10:01 PM EST

AC not OP?

LoL.

QBRanger December 23 2011 10:16 PM EST

Please explain how AC is OP? For all the negatives it gives if you use real heavy AC.

I have explained how the exbow is OP for what it costs in xp and NW to use o so effectively.

AdminNightStrike December 23 2011 10:24 PM EST

The MSB and DD are very different animals. A DD-leeching weapon would actually be a great idea, however the implementation would have to be weighed heavily against the completely different mechanism of how mages work. That includes things like the number of ways to boost the main stat, the amount of damage that a mage can do, the various factors that go into damage, how it interacts with things like AMF, etc. Then of course you have defensive differences, too. A tank has natural defenses against any physical weapon. For instance, to be an effective tank, you have to train DX. To defend against a tank, DX also helps. Tank boosting gear reduces physical damage by a lot. A mage does none of this, and so would be far more susceptible to any physical based attack.

I like the idea a lot. Balancing it is hard.

A much better parallel would be a new offensive spell that attacks another mage's spell instead of the other mage's HP. That's actually a really neat idea that I just came up with :) It's not without its issues, though. Very complicated, and hard to define when we have things like AMF in the mix.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 23 2011 10:24 PM EST

It might help things to substitute unbalanced in place of overpowered Ranger. There are a number of folks who've tried to point out why that word may not apply to a specialized weapon like the exbow.

While you and I aren't on the same page when it comes to the weapon (you've made clear that you don't think a tank should be able to use a weapon alone to defend against an archer, and I disagree both in theory and practice) I think it would be helpful to slow down with the rhetoric and actually talk about what could work going forward.

What are your thoughts on Natasha's suggestions for ranged weaponry?

When I look at our battles I see a much more balanced fight than the one you use as an example, if the exbow did have a max drain that left fights looking more like ours would that be acceptable in your view?

QBRanger December 23 2011 10:50 PM EST

While you and I aren't on the same page when it comes to the weapon (you've made clear that you don't think a tank should be able to use a weapon alone to defend against an archer, and I disagree both in theory and practice) I think it would be helpful to slow down with the rhetoric and actually talk about what could work going forward.

A tank can use a weapon alone to defend vs another tank. It is called a SoD or ELB or MSB. Not a weapon that nerfs a tank, no matter its HP/NW/Str in 1 or 2 hits dependent only on the attackers x on the weapon. That alone is pathetic.

Or one can use the other 3 or 4 ways to beat an archer aside from the exbow. Ways that are far more balanced to the game as a whole.

We have had people drop from clans, leave the game and have had more posts than almost any other item in the history of CB.

What are your thoughts on Natasha's suggestions for ranged weaponry?

It seems you are fixated on Nats solution as the only one. I and others have proposed many others but you seem to be fixed only on Nats. It would be great if a decent, balanced solution is enacted. I would have to see Nats solution in action to be able to say if it is balanced. And even though I proposed a strength gaining/leeching items (that you resoundly were against), I am against having to spend a few hundred million NW on a melee weapon to counter an obviously unbalanced missile one.

When I look at our battles I see a much more balanced fight than the one you use as an example, if the exbow did have a max drain that left fights looking more like ours would that be acceptable in your view?

Yes, certainly our battles are like all exbow battles should be. However, if you would get your exbow up to x10k, it would be a vastly different situation with 1 hit sapping all my strength.

But, there are 10k or greater exbows out there doing 100%+ drain in 1 freaking hit. That is retarded.

A tank has natural defenses against any physical weapon. For instance, to be an effective tank, you have to train DX. To defend against a tank, DX also helps. Tank boosting gear reduces physical damage by a lot. A mage does none of this, and so would be far more susceptible to any physical based attack.

Well right now a tank has to train 3 things at least. HP, str and dex. A mage only has to train HP and DD. So if the mage wanted to stop hits from the DD sapping item, they can train the 3 things.

But it is quite obvious from your posts NS that you believe the exbow at its current 10k=100% strength loss is perfect balanced for CB. That all the information does not convince you that it is unlike any other item in any other game played.

That it is a very controversial item that have driven people from the game, including myself due to its insane ability to make a minion and all its NW, including a possible tattoo completely useless for the rest of battle. With little xp and NW needed compared to other weapons at the appropriate levels.

With that, I will stop posting on this subject and hope someday you can see the other side of the exbow. The side of 1 hit=character neutering.

lostling December 23 2011 10:53 PM EST

exbow = the reason i never run tank builds :D

QBRanger December 23 2011 10:54 PM EST

Forgot this part:

t might help things to substitute unbalanced in place of overpowered Ranger. There are a number of folks who've tried to point out why that word may not apply to a specialized weapon like the exbow.

It is both unbalanced and overpowered.

For the xp and NW needed to accomplish its goal, the exbow is very overpowered. Stick it on a minion with 3M dex and 1M str with 100M NW at the top levels and you can drain almost any tank in 1-2 hits. Relying on dex CTH to hit. Slap on some AC on a wall and live long enough to hit just that 1 time. Use PL to live longer and you are set.

And while you state Lego should not use a HF (and yes, it is very underpowered at this time), the exbow should not be able to sap the HF strength in 1 shot. That is just very unbalanced and very overpowered. They are not exclusive items.

QBRanger December 23 2011 10:56 PM EST

exbow = the reason i never run tank builds :D

Lostling = one very smart cookie.

I, deep down, always had hoped Jon and then NS would eventually see the light. I hoped wrong as have many others.

lostling December 23 2011 10:59 PM EST

:) ranger i know chat is normally dead but would love to see you around chat and run some ideas past you

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 23 2011 11:02 PM EST

For the xp and NW needed to accomplish its goal, the exbow is very overpowered. Stick it on a minion with 3M dex and 1M str with 100M NW at the top levels and you can drain almost any tank in 1-2 hits. Relying on dex CTH to hit. Slap on some AC on a wall and live long enough to hit just that 1 time. Use PL to live longer and you are set.

The point at which this works, is the point at which it works without the exbow. This makes the exbow kind of pointless to use in that setup... The only time it works only with the exbow is on a very few that are glass cannons.

QBRanger December 23 2011 11:05 PM EST

The point at which this works, is the point at which it works without the exbow. This makes the exbow kind of pointless to use in that setup... The only time it works only with the exbow is on a very few that are glass cannons.

I guess my tank is a classic glass cannon.



AdminNightStrike December 23 2011 11:15 PM EST

But it is quite obvious from your posts NS that you believe the exbow at its current 10k=100% strength loss is perfect balanced for CB. That all the information does not convince you that it is unlike any other item in any other game played.


All of WHAT information? All I ever see is your opinion, spoken loudly as if it was the opinion of every single person clicking away on CB without any exception.


Let me put it a different way. Come up with a strat where a user is unbeatable because of an exbow, and prove it with battle logs and actual numbers.

What you will find is that the exbow is very good at targeting very specific setups, and horrible at anything else.

We went down this same path when the VB was used to destroy giant parties with tons of MPR using tiny parties with very little. People that were vulnerable went nuts with rage, while most realized that these VB teams were wide open to many other attacks.

The only reason we don't see the VB as an issue anymore (even after its nerfs) is that AC got nerfed a lot, and thus nobody really tries to make a strat that's highly susceptible to the VB-centered attack.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 23 2011 11:17 PM EST

I can't believe how many more posts have happened since i said i wouldn't even post again, but wow.

Ranger is making my point far better then i ever could. show me ANY item that will nerf a Mage to be useless for the entire battle with one hit, it doesn't exist. if it did I would have it equipped mages NEVER miss and do huge damage why no item to gimp them after 1 hit? why no item to dodge DD attacks? why only and item to gimp a tank with 1 hit.

lets take a MM mage, i train AMF he takes some backlash. he puts on NSC's now he takes less backlash. yet never misses still.

now, lets take a tank, i train evasion or EC or both or run DBs or UC or whatever, it stops SOME damage as the AMF does. or I can put an exbow one pray for 1 hit and gimp the snot outta him.. its not balanced at all.

with my build... against a lower mpr character. with 100 evasion, i dodge 5/6 rounds.. but it doesn't matter because that 1 hit took all my str away totally making my tank useless

unlike someone training amf who would just blacklash SOME damage.. not making me gimp myself..

whatever im rambling and i know someone is going to say something about what i just posted so why am i even bothering.. nothing will ever been done about a broken item.. yes broken.


give me an item that dodges DD. give me an item that takes ALL dd away from a person brings there 1mill damage MM to 10. does that sound fair? ofcourse not. so why should there be an item that does it to a tank.

lostling December 23 2011 11:17 PM EST

:) well i suppose you have to nerf robf now that i have 9.1mill score with 3.5mill mpr :D

lostling December 23 2011 11:18 PM EST

well mageseekers make mages dead ^^ im pretty sure that takes them out for the entire battle

AdminNightStrike December 23 2011 11:18 PM EST

@GL
You don't use an EXBow to kill someone, it's only a STR sapping bit of gear.

Semantics. It's a weapon on a team, used to fight the team. Yes, in this case, you use it to stop a minion from attacking, and still need to kill that minion with some other means.

I think a lot of people miss that piece, too. An exbow team can't win with that bow alone. They need a second damage source. Teams with multiple damage sources always have issues.....

AdminNightStrike December 23 2011 11:23 PM EST

give me an item that dodges DD.

That would be a cool item, too. Something like a spell bender, or an AoI for DD.

Making that item is easy. What's hard is all of the detriments that would come with it that people seem to forget. Like, maybe it'd be a tattoo, taking up several item slots that could otherwise give great benefits. Maybe it'd be a body armor with a low AC. Most people use a TSA for HP+ST, or an AC for AC, so taking that slot would be quite the offset. Not sure. Good idea, though.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 23 2011 11:25 PM EST

yes the mageseeker bow does kill mages. but you require a huge amount of NW to use it effectively just like the ELB. and you require archery/hp/str/dex that mage requires hp/dd

it doesn't nerf or gimp the DD it just targets it.

AMF just targets it.. i see no gimping.

QBRanger December 23 2011 11:28 PM EST

At NS:

Let me put it a different way. Come up with a strat where a user is unbeatable because of an exbow, and prove it with battle logs and actual numbers.

Look at Piper at the Gates.

AA with his 1.6B NW beats him with nearly 2M more MPR. All others he beats with using a 100M NW exbow on a secondary minion or tertiary minion to nerf all tanks.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 23 2011 11:28 PM EST

Thanks NS but your forgetting if you make an the item a tattoo to give the ability to doge DD, then maybe the DBs should be come a tattoo aswell, or the exbow should become a tattoo..

boots that dodge DD seems reasonable, but it doesn't change the fact gimping a tank after 1 hit is overkill, no item gimps a DD after 1 hit.

lostling December 23 2011 11:29 PM EST

i suppose what we are saying NS is that exbow requires less of an investment even to gimp even with the "new" measures put in place

QBRanger December 23 2011 11:31 PM EST

We went down this same path when the VB was used to destroy giant parties with tons of MPR using tiny parties with very little. People that were vulnerable went nuts with rage, while most realized that these VB teams were wide open to many other attacks.

Actually it was due to the high VB base damage.

The only reason we don't see the VB as an issue anymore (even after its nerfs) is that AC got nerfed a lot, and thus nobody really tries to make a strat that's highly susceptible to the VB-centered attack.

NO, it is because the VB base damage was put in line with the other big 6 items.

QBRanger December 23 2011 11:34 PM EST

Also,

Consider this.

When Areo had to choose how to run an NCB, to maximize his growth, what did he use?

The exbow of course. Yes, he went after no DB wearing tanks but then again, should this one item FORCE all tanks to have to use DBs?

What other item forces a character to use another specific item. Not even mages have to use DBs vs the MSB, like RoS GA characters that like to be hit.

lostling December 23 2011 11:36 PM EST

this game somehow loves to be linear somehow... for instance

N*B : there will come a time... nuff said

AC : even with enc... eventually someone will hit the cap and you would have to shift it up again (makes totally no sense to me)

Exbow : totally not linear... currently its like just like an on off switch more on then off

exbow cap the max drain at 50% a hit of the opponent remaining str and we have something to talk about

TH3 C0113CT0R December 23 2011 11:39 PM EST

yes lower the cap, no reason a tank should be gimped after 1 hit, thats what i've been saying since the beginning and others have been saying.

lostling December 23 2011 11:47 PM EST

keep in mind that exbow can hit multiple times in a single round

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 23 2011 11:53 PM EST

against any kind of a defense you'll rarely see it do so..

QBRanger December 23 2011 11:56 PM EST

Does it really matter when 1 or 2 hits is all you need?

Really?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 24 2011 12:01 AM EST

If we're talking about capping drain it does

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] December 24 2011 12:02 AM EST

Hard caps like that won't work well at all.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 24 2011 12:05 AM EST

why not, the VB ignores 50% of AC, blade of thunder drains 20% of hp, MoD does 100% more damage against AS

so why wouldn't the exbow be fine if it drained 50% of str a round. seems like fixed numbers are used quiet often.

QBRanger December 24 2011 12:06 AM EST

I agree.

Hard caps are not good.

It has to work analogous to how DD vs AMF works. A sliding scale of strength loss.

BestNUB December 24 2011 12:07 AM EST

don't you think the sliding scale for amf is a bit steep though?

less 1% exp distribution for the first 0.50 of effect. Then more than 99% of the exp distribution for the final 0.50 of effect, of which NSC's lop off the top of that.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 24 2011 12:08 AM EST

and with 5 rounds 1 hit per round how much str could you drain a lot still and you still won't gimp the tank to 0 str.

QBRanger December 24 2011 12:11 AM EST

I think AMF vs DD is great.

The NSC just makes AMF a waste of a lot of xp. That is the reason I never used it after the NSC came out. Aside from a brief time of 500k AMF to help vs decay.

lostling December 24 2011 12:11 AM EST

actually i was thinking 50% remained str per HIT :D

AdminNightStrike December 24 2011 12:36 AM EST

Actually it was due to the high VB base damage.
NO, it is because the VB base damage was put in line with the other big 6 items.

You're countering something I didn't say, and supporting an artifact of the bigger picture.

The VB was still used to take down high AC teams after its nerf. All that happened was that the crossover point at which the VB was stronger than the BNE moved up some. It's still a very attainable AC level. There aren't many interesting teams, however, that hide inside wall shells. Therefore, a VB centered team is a waste.

There are, however, teams that hide behind single, giant damage sources with no legitimate defenses. The exbow eats that strat for lunch.

Here's the point -- just because there's a hole in a strat that someone uses doesn't mean that targeting that hole is overpowered.

I've seen arguments like "he shouldn't be able to beat me!" since I first started playing CB, and I have never understood them. Even a few posts up, someone said something that boils down to "I'm losing and I shouldn't." But WHY? Why is it that people think that they can just make grandiose statements like "You are beating me, but you shouldn't be able to" ? Says who? You? Oh, well, that guy doesn't have enough MPR, or I invested more money. So what? A strat means more than just large numbers. It's how those numbers interact that matter.

You shouldn't be able to kill my minion in one hit! No one should! Nobody should be able to even penetrate my fortress! If you can't understand why, then you don't get CB, and you're dumb, and everyone thinks the way I do, and everyone knows that this is the reason why everyone that's ever left the game has left!

See how stupid that sounds?

lostling December 24 2011 12:43 AM EST

how stupid is the post or how that we think exbow hasnt been nerfed enough :)

QBRanger December 24 2011 12:56 AM EST

There are, however, teams that hide behind single, giant damage sources with no legitimate defenses. The exbow eats that strat for lunch.
Here's the point -- just because there's a hole in a strat that someone uses doesn't mean that targeting that hole is overpowered.

Now we get to the meat of the disagreement. What constitutes an "adequate" defense vs the exbow? 7M dexterity + 22M HP + 276 named DBs is not "adequate"???? That is just insane thinking. Do you have to have 15M dex using the ToA and therefore cannot use body armor just to protect vs one broken item?

Do you have to put 120M xp to have 10M EC to nerf the exbow users strength? Due to the fact the x on the exbow drains strength in addition to the damage, that may not even be of help.

So please tell me what is "adequate defense" to prevent getting hit 1 freaking time with an item that can drain all your strength in that 1 hit.

I am waiting for a better response than using 400 AC and a 10M EC level. I doubt even 400 AC would help vs an x10k exbow due to the inate leech it has. That I do not really know for certain.

Add in that exbow users can use EBs, while regular tanks have to use DBs (as Aero so justly shows), the dex hits are all one really needs.

Add in the fact archers HAVE to use archery, further wasting xp on a skill that lets you use an item normally, you have less xp to boost your dex.

So again, PLEASE tell me what the owner and developer of the game thinks is an adequate defense for an item that can be so devastating to a character with 1 hit.

Pretty please with a cherry on top.

And to the hole in my character, certainly I have one. A huge one. It is very obvious and characters are using it. The "hole" for the exbow is just wrong on many levels of gameplay.

And yes, this ia according to Ranger, but also a view shared by many others in CB.

I've seen arguments like "he shouldn't be able to beat me!" since I first started playing CB, and I have never understood them. Even a few posts up, someone said something that boils down to "I'm losing and I shouldn't." But WHY? Why is it that people think that they can just make grandiose statements like "You are beating me, but you shouldn't be able to" ? Says who? You? Oh, well, that guy doesn't have enough MPR, or I invested more money. So what? A strat means more than just large numbers. It's how those numbers interact that matter.

I do not believe I have ever stated that except for the exbow as I discussed above.

You shouldn't be able to kill my minion in one hit! No one should! Nobody should be able to even penetrate my fortress! If you can't understand why, then you don't get CB, and you're dumb, and everyone thinks the way I do, and everyone knows that this is the reason why everyone that's ever left the game has left!

I do not think anyone ever stated it that way. We are frustrated with the mechanism of how the exbow works. 1 hit = complete strength loss and total minion uselessness. That is a lot different from a 1 hit = death. Of which I think NO weapon in all of CB does that at an appropriate MPR. So that argument is quite the fallacy as it does not happen in CB.

Unless of course I attack a 1M MPR character.

See how stupid that sounds?

As you put it, very stupid. But realize that we really disagree on what adequate defense vs the exbow is or should be for all the damage/leeching it does/can do.

QBRanger December 24 2011 1:08 AM EST

Moon's Spawn shot Mick Taylor [166,494]
Mick Taylor looks weaker!

Less than 1% of my HP and my strength went from 10M to -1.6M.

Hit in the 2nd round of missile. So even with PL in the 3rd round it becomes nothing more than a 22M HP wall with average AC.

Is that balanced?

TH3 C0113CT0R December 24 2011 1:30 AM EST

nope, and that was the point i was trying to make up top.. he took 58k damage from 1.5mil hp but drained All my str in one shot. all 1.5mill of it.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 24 2011 1:33 AM EST

the only way to beat the exbow it to not be hit, if you get hit even once its over.

i have 100 evasion Zheg has +91 pth my dex is higher then his, and he still hit me 1/6 rounds and its enough to gimp me.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 24 2011 1:36 AM EST

Now that is the start of making a point, I spent six months getting archery fixed by posting cold hard numbers until there wasn't any argument to be had.

If the bar is still too low (and as you stated above my x6k exbow is about where you'd like to see things) then post factual data to back up that claim.

The opinion and conjecture cloud the matter, the simple facts are the only things that's going to help. Waging a never ending campaign against an item hasn't done anything except divide folks along made up lines (with most falling in the center under "please shut up all of you").

The exbow doesn't really cut it as a weapon as far as I'm concerned, it's too specific and too binary in effect, but it's the only option for many teams not looking to be pigeon holed into an overly defensive setup. The idea that a melee tank should have to out damage an archer in ranged to compete is cruel at best, and I hope that one way or another we get to have the rock paper scissors game continue.

Adjusting the exbow, or revamping the way drain works are fairly realistic goals, that could be achieved given work and time... and before you claim you've done it all, you haven't... because if you had we wouldn't be have this discussion, again.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 24 2011 5:00 AM EST

Please explain how AC is OP? For all the negatives it gives if you use real heavy AC.

Really Ranger? I thought you knew CB's mechanics better....

Maybe not.

OK, if you get enough AC, you become immune to Damage.

Immune.

That's OP.

Yes, yes. There's SG or the VB. If one thing in CB *forces* everyone to use either SG or the VB, then that's broken.

Jon understood this, that's why AC has been changed numerous times.

What Jon didn't count for (and see the original MGS for an example) is how much cash people would be able to get in the years CB has existed.

One of the changes we're desperatley in need of is another AC rebalance.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 24 2011 5:03 AM EST

give me an item that dodges DD.

That would be a cool item, too. Something like a spell bender, or an AoI for DD

We already have it.

It's the MGS.

You can't 'dodge' DD, as it, unlike Physical damage, only has one hit.

Imagine you usually face 2 Physical hits per round, but you dodge one. That's reduced the incoming damage by 50%.

If you use a 50% MGS versus DD, you've just 'dodged' the same amount of damage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 24 2011 5:24 AM EST

As for a DD reducing item. That's a tough one.

If it's a weapon, then you need to give Mages a viable way of countering BCTH without pumping DEX, as DEX does nothing for a Mage. (To be honest, Mages already need a viable way of countering BCTH...)

If it's not a weapon, then we already have the AGs and Corn to boost AMF. Or the MGS.

And then we'd need to make PL absorb the drain as well.

We could always scrap the EXBow, and return Cuase Fear. And make it like AMF, where it's level versus STR reduces damage by a fixed %. Or at least scrap the % reduction of the EXBow, and let it still reduce STR by a small fixed amount per hit.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 24 2011 5:28 AM EST

Oh and another thing about AC, is that it doesn't follow the comparative nature of CB.

It's not AC versus an opponents stat.

If you get enough, you reduce damage to zero. Regardless of the size of your opponents equipment. 1 CBD weapon/base DD to 1 gazillion CBD weapon/DD. All reduced to zero damage.

AC doesn't scale.

Demigod December 24 2011 5:29 AM EST

How 'bout a reduction in effectiveness based on players' MPR vs higher opponents?

Demigod December 24 2011 5:30 AM EST

Referring to exbow, of course.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 24 2011 5:32 AM EST

Well right now a tank has to train 3 things at least. HP, str and dex. A mage only has to train HP and DD. So if the mage wanted to stop hits from the DD sapping item, they can train the 3 things.

Please....

This would be fine the moment;

1: Tanks lost the ability to increase their weapon through cash.

2: Mages gained the ability to increase their DD through a fixed 'x' weapon.

Come on Ranger, this is basic CB mechanics...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 24 2011 5:33 AM EST

Oh and to the above, also as long as DEX then increased the Mages DD damage as well.

TH3 C0113CT0R December 24 2011 9:48 AM EST

how do you call the mageshield similar to the exbow.. does the exbow reduce every spell you have on the wearer to 0? no, it doesn't hurt the wearer at all, other then this so called low damage. make the exbow reduce all spells to zero then come talk to me about it. the mageshield as i can see is only good for one thing a mage wall, with a skill only say evasion or PL best. you can't exactly run a single minion with any build other than a skill if you run the mageshield. what hinderance does the exbow give?

TH3 C0113CT0R December 24 2011 9:54 AM EST

not to mention your comparing a weapon to armor.. hmmmm.. apples and oranges?

Quyen December 24 2011 10:08 AM EST

how do you call the mageshield similar to the exbow.. does the exbow reduce every spell you have on the wearer to 0?

mageshield on a tank = Profit!

TH3 C0113CT0R December 24 2011 10:47 AM EST

mage shield on tank = no VA/GA/EC/AMF/DM = easy kill.

QBRanger December 24 2011 11:11 AM EST

OK, if you get enough AC, you become immune to Damage.

Now you need to look at CB mechanics.

How do you get that much AC? Jon modified AC a couple years ago to make it almost impossible if not impossible to become immune.

A few points.

1) For a 3 or 4 minion character starting from the beginning, ENC will most likely prohibit immune AC. We need Dude to chime in as to his "immunity" as it seems he has the highest AC in the game right now. 472 + SS

2) Yes, one can theoretically get max AC vs physical, however magical damage still will occur. And max AC makes SG that much more effective.

3) AP is too powerful for the xp. It should require a proportion of your HP to be effective. Like SS. 1/8th into that skill, not a fixed 1k amount.

4) What is the cost of a full immune AC set? Over 500M right now. Then one has to have SS cast. DM works wonders on that.

It may force physical damage characters to use DM, however, that is a lot of NW used for an effect. Unlike the 100M into an exbow for full effect.

But nobody yet has answered my question. What is an appropriate defense vs the exbow?

While I have railed on the exbow, perhaps I have not been that specific. Well of course I have in the past but nobody pays attention. All I have gotten is nebulous replies including "not your defenses".

Is not 22M hp, 7M dex and 276 named DBs not enough????

What more does one require? 400+AC? Which, due to the inate drain of the exbow will not work most likely? Multiple minions with PL? Very very difficult to titrate that right.

I have little if any problem with the drain of novice's exbow. It takes gradual strength. However, if he made it x10k instead of x7k, one hit would do me in. What a very steep curve.

QBRanger December 24 2011 11:13 AM EST

We already have it.
It's the MGS.

Now we have gone off the reservation.

The MgS is capped at 50%. Is the exbow capped? Nope.

Comparison over.

QBRanger December 24 2011 11:24 AM EST

Adjusting the exbow, or revamping the way drain works are fairly realistic goals, that could be achieved given work and time... and before you claim you've done it all, you haven't... because if you had we wouldn't be have this discussion, again.

I have made the point of it being too much drain numerous times. I have posted tons of data.

However, all I get is "you do not have enough defense", even though I have asked what enough defense is.

The powers that be think the drain is good as it is. As I read their posts.

For the past 2 years at least I have been fine with exbows that work like yours Novice. Gradual or sub 100% drain. The ones that 1 hit=complete drain are far too much.

Quyen December 24 2011 11:26 AM EST

TBH, it should lower the amount of STR drained per X, i believe it gets to 1K each X >.> that should be lowered to a minimal of 750 or 500.. thats better?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 24 2011 2:17 PM EST

how do you call the mageshield similar to the exbow..

The MgS is capped at 50%. Is the exbow capped? Nope.

I didn't...

You both need to reread.

I was comparing the MGS to a fictional item that would 'dodge' DD attacks...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 24 2011 2:19 PM EST

How do you get that much AC? Jon modified AC a couple years ago to make it almost impossible if not impossible to become immune.

Natural AC and SS.

Yes he did nerf it.

Slayer reached it (or close as reached it). I'm sure Titan will as well.

If you remember, originally the MGS wasn't caped, as Jon said "No one will be able to afford getting it that high".

Well, we did. That's why the cap was introduced later.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 24 2011 2:21 PM EST

What is the cost of a full immune AC set? Over 500M right now. Then one has to have SS cast. DM works wonders on that.

Did I see mention of someone having a 800M NW weapon?

And the RoS can help with SS.

QBRanger December 24 2011 2:32 PM EST

But they will not get full magic immunity.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 24 2011 2:36 PM EST

Not until a significant amount of more NW. No. But it's still possible.

But who cares?

All Magic damage can be PLed away to a TSA wearing minion. Or the massive AC coupled with AMF to make the incoming damage negligable /shrug

Doesn't change the fact that we can reach immunity, regardless of opponents stats.

And that's fundamentally broken.

Cost is no excuse.

Quyen December 24 2011 4:29 PM EST

u all like:
AC is OP
Exbow is OP

but Decay is OP >:[ when succesfull it hits ranger for over 10M at base >.>

QBRanger December 24 2011 5:32 PM EST

Decay is not OP. It is well balanced IMO. One can use DM, which is very powerful but opens one to decay. No problem even though it can hit me for over 13M HP in 1 cast.
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