Why do Archers beat Tanks? (in General)


Quyen December 25 2011 9:40 AM EST

hai there. it was a joke on shade :D anyway; why is it that most tanks get beaten by archers? :| shouldnt they be like evenly matched.. =.=

AdminShade December 25 2011 10:27 AM EST

I have no idea ^_^

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 25 2011 11:55 AM EST

because they go first...

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] December 25 2011 11:57 AM EST

5-6 rounds of ranged plus ranged gets double (give or take 10) the BTH of melee weapons is a good place to start.

QBRanger December 25 2011 12:04 PM EST

But...

Just look at the NW of the top missile weapons compared to the melee weapons.

I will not get into the reasons tanks decided on missile over melee *cough* exbow *cough*, but there are a few that make missile > melee overall in the game.

Personally, when the NSC came out, I decided that AMF is a lot of wasted xp so living to melee is difficult enough and then you get those high damage melee DD spells finishing you off.

Jecht December 25 2011 2:21 PM EST

Should it be logically mageļ¾­>archer>tank or mage>tank>archer?

Jecht December 25 2011 2:22 PM EST

mage*

King December 25 2011 2:43 PM EST

I think originally it was supposed to be Archer > Mage > Tank > Archer (I could be wrong, mage might be meant for the very bottom of the totem pole) but game balance got skewed as numbers got larger and forced equipment changes.

Mages hitting for upwards of 7-11M in melee, Archers quad hitting 1-3M for 6 rounds unless you pump up a pair of DBs and full strength drain before melee probably weren't even considered in the initial balancing due to the sheer cost of getting the equipment needed. USD is the great unbalancer but... it's just a game and all the more satisfying if you can beat the big spenders without dropping anything yourself.

Novice does a wonderful job as a tank with Construct aside from being forced to use a RoBF.

miteke [Superheros] December 25 2011 3:57 PM EST

Because Tanks underwent a horrific nerf. Unfortunately after the last play balance modification, Jon dropped and no longer tried to balance things.

I was running a successful ToE tank and he nerfed ToEs and melee damage and the strat died a very grizzly end.

QBRanger December 25 2011 4:59 PM EST

But seriously,

Why even play a melee tank when you need to boost str, dex and hp as well as using BL when you can take that xp and with a nice set of NSC deliver much more damage using CoC or SG?

At 0 cost compared to hundreds of millions needed for a melee weapon.

At least with a missile weapon one can try to kill before the SG or CoC acts.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 25 2011 5:23 PM EST

Come on Ranger.

Unlike Ranged weapons (over 800 Million NW in size), the largest Melee weapon is only 350 Million NW.

Show me a SG/CoC mage that can outdamage a 200 Million NW weapon (with equivalent STR, no sticking it on a 20 STR minion please...) in Melee (including all hits in a round), when they both face a target with no defense (no DEX, no AC, no AMF).

Oh and if anyone wonders why Ranged weapon are more heavily invested in, that's been answerd above.

They go first.

That there is a massive point of imbalance CB needs to address. And has needed to since the days of the first x25 ELBow in CB1.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 25 2011 5:28 PM EST

The largest CoC in the game is just over 11M. Let's call it 12M.

That would do a maximum of 13.2 Million damage per round.

With a varience of 50%-100&, making an average of 9.9 Million damage per round.

I don't belive you can't possibly find any melee Tank that *can't* beat 9.9 Million damage per round, incldung multiple hits.

QBRanger December 25 2011 5:29 PM EST

Too easy GL:

two headed stone sword [67x31417] (+200) worth $359,817,076 owned by AdminQBnovice (Construct)

a maug warrior grazed Mick Taylor with two headed stone sword [1,633,198]

And he hits me 1 time in melee. Even a triple hit is less than:

Vs SG:

Kurald Galain touches Mick Taylor [4,923,601]

or CoC

Karn's Cone of Cold hit Mick Taylor [1,301,289], Grotesque [1,115,363], The Reaper [1,577,219]

And that is 350M vs 0M NW in items towards damage.

Simple enough.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 25 2011 5:30 PM EST

No.

Please reread my post, and understand why your post is skewed and of no use.

QBRanger December 25 2011 5:30 PM EST

I don't belive you can't possibly find any melee Tank that *can't* beat 9.9 Million damage per round, incldung multiple hits.

I think the more appropriate question is to find any melee tank that without a SoC can do 9.9M damage a round on average. And the SoC is useless vs all the DD out there.

Compared to CoC or SG that does it each round with no NW needed. Except for 15M in NSC.

QBRanger December 25 2011 5:31 PM EST

You state vs no defense. However that is not what is seen in real life gameplay.

Most characters have at least 101 Dbs. Tanks have to hit other tanks dex vs dex.

Your trying to compare apples to grapes.

QBRanger December 25 2011 5:33 PM EST

And my familiar can do over 8M damage vs 1 minion in a round guaranteed. The very highest AMF is .22 and vs that character I do over 7M a damage sometimes vs his Jiggy.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 25 2011 5:33 PM EST

How do you compare average DD versus Physical damage?

How large an AMF and MGS does the DD have to face to be equal to how large a DEX and AC and DB the physical has to face?

The *only* equivalence is to compare when facing no defense.

This is simple stuff Ranger, it *really* is.

QBRanger December 25 2011 5:37 PM EST

Absolutely not GL.

You have to compare it in actual real life gameplay. Theoretical discussions are great, but gameplay is what matters.

Even so,

Take AA's MoD. It does 1M damage on average to me in a hit. Get rid of my AC and DBs and he can do 5 hits a round possibly 1.5M a hit.

7.5M.

Take that vs a high level SG or CoC. For all the NW needed in a melee weapon, why use it when you can get "free" damage with CoC or SG?

Then a 15M NW DB takes away 1 hit. Go again other tanks can also lower hits.

What can lower DD? Only AMF for which the NSC makes AMF wasted xp and the MgS which can only be used on specialized minions.

DD >>>>> Melee tank by far.

If I were wrong we would be seeing a lot more melee tanks than we do now.

Areodjarekput December 25 2011 5:37 PM EST

For reference, this is the max I've hit with Satan's Gift:

Satan's Gift touches Pwnyboy [12,209,804]
Satan's Gift's Cone of Cold hit Security [14,537,002]

And that was with Junctioned +12 AGs, and a +10 AoL and +25 BoF on the front minions. With +16 AGs, SBs, and more leadership, I could hit for significantly more.

QBRanger December 25 2011 5:38 PM EST

TYVM Areo for proving my point.

Free damage. Intense free damage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 25 2011 5:38 PM EST

No you don't ranger.

There's no way to equally and equivalently determin the correct amount of defense to provide a fair and unbiased comparison.

There's no point conitnuing this if you can't grasp that.

QBRanger December 25 2011 5:40 PM EST

Yes GL, until you realize that actual gameplay is what matters, it is best we each have our separate opinions.

And when we start to see a lot more melee tanks doing 9+M damage a round, I will offer you a sincere apology.

BTW:

Did you bother to look at the damage Areo posted? How many tanks can reach that every round?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 25 2011 5:42 PM EST

It's nice damage.

Who was the target? What defense to DD do they have?

How does this compare to Melee?

What conclusions can you acuratly draw from it?

Areodjarekput December 25 2011 5:47 PM EST

Those are the maximum hits from an 18.3M tattoo, under ideal conditions for each DD. An interesting comparison would be for Novice to change his tattoo to a ToA, and attack a low-AC, no DX target.

Pwnyboy (Atomicboy) is the target in the upper ranks that gets hit hardest by SG.

Security is Joel's minion, a single, low AC minion with no DD defense to speak of - a perfect way to maximize CoC.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 25 2011 5:48 PM EST

A Junctioned Tattoo is far better than it's minion counterpart.

I wasn't comparing Juntioned Familiars to Tanks.

QBRanger December 25 2011 5:49 PM EST

It's nice damage.

It is spectacular damage.

Who was the target? What defense to DD do they have?

They likely used DM and any character with DM and no MgS on their first minion would take that damage. DM is used by at least 50% of the character in the game.

How does this compare to Melee?

Melee damage is much lower as we have shown. Plus all AC works on melee, only the + lowers DD damage.

What conclusions can you acuratly draw from it?

Easily. Why pay hundreds of millions of CB for a melee weapon when one can use DD and get autodamage of millions.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 25 2011 5:52 PM EST

VA, Vorpal, x2 damage to AS, ignore PL.

All things Melee can do that Magic can't.

If the grip is Melee has to pay, buy Magic doesn't.

Please.

It's been that way for ever. Physical can jump ahead as you get the ability to boost your damage past the size of your team thorugh cash. Magic cannot.

It's purely limited to the size of your team.

This is old, old ground.

I'm actually bored by discussing it.

QBOddBird December 25 2011 5:54 PM EST

Since we're comparing maximums - the biggest spells in the game with the best equipment, to get numbers like 12-14M - I'd say this is just an ingame example:

Take AA's MoD. It does 1M damage on average to me in a hit. Get rid of my AC and DBs and he can do 5 hits a round possibly 1.5M a hit.

The example you said proves your point:

And that was with Junctioned +12 AGs, and a +10 AoL and +25 BoF on the front minions. With +16 AGs, SBs, and more leadership, I could hit for significantly more.

So if we maxed out for damage he would definitely have BL trained. If you refuse to count the SoC's massive damage potential, switch that out for a BoNE instead of a MoD. Just with BL, his MoD damage could jump to 2.625M per hit. At 5 hits, that's 13M per round - even with the SoC/SG examples given. With a BoNE, I'd register a guess at 20M+ per round.

QBOddBird December 25 2011 5:56 PM EST

CoC/SG* examples given. Looks like I accidentally derped.

QBRanger December 25 2011 6:08 PM EST

I'm actually bored by discussing it.

Then don't. I am giving my reasons for the reason we see more archers than melee tanks.

I would never play a melee tank. I would much rather use CoC or SG as they always hit for massive damage, require no NW and are unaffected by DB, dex and only get lowered by the + on AC.

AdminTitan December 25 2011 6:43 PM EST

If the grip is Melee has to pay, buy Magic doesn't.

Please.

It's been that way for ever. Physical can jump ahead as you get the ability to boost your damage past the size of your team thorugh cash. Magic cannot.

Yes, it's *SUPPOSED* to be that way, but it's not! Not even close. Even Jon said tanks have the option to use a lot of NW to out damage mages, now tanks have to invest an absurd amount of money to just try and match magic damage. Hmmm, what should I do, put 400M into a weapon and do good damage, or just train SG and see stuff like this:

Caharin touches Get [8,076,874]

I know which one I'm choosing...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 25 2011 8:00 PM EST

I'm actually surprised that Melee weapons coupled with BL can't outdamage CoC.

I honestly am.

Are we honestly saying there's no Melee that outdamages the largest CoC in the game?

King December 25 2011 8:05 PM EST

On the bright side everyone can agree ranged DD's are a joke, am I right?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 25 2011 8:08 PM EST

Titan, Your DD is massive. It's what, 21.5 Mil?

On average you should be seeing an average of 9M damage versus zero AC targets (so no extra damage).

What sized Melee Weapon do you think a 21.5M trained DD should equal? How much damage would you expect an equivalent sized Tank to deal per round?

9M over all thier multiple hits? More, less?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 25 2011 8:17 PM EST

Building on what King mentioned;

>Then don't. I am giving my reasons for the reason we see more archers than melee tanks.

They go first. That's it.

Ranged doesn't have VA, Vorpal, SoC flashes, x2 Damage, ingore PL.

It's only benefit is it goes first, and that's massive.

I would never play a melee tank. I would much rather use CoC or SG as they always hit for massive damage, require no NW and are unaffected by DB, dex and only get lowered by the + on AC.

Then why does Ranged Physical fair so well? Shouldn't ELBows/SoD fail miserably to FB/MM? Just as Melee does to CoC/SG.

Or is it rather, as said in my contest thread, there's significantly more investment in Ranged Weapons.

If, instead of the 12+ Ranged weapons over 400M (compared to the 4 Melee Weapons over 200M...), these were 12+ Melee Weapons of this size, I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 25 2011 8:27 PM EST

I could match CoC output with a BoNE against an unprotected target, but that's the only way, that's with an abberant weapon and around 20m str.

Melee damage isn't up to the task compared to most of the rest of CB, any kind of defense and my 25m in hp is the only reason I've got a chance.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 25 2011 8:34 PM EST

Well so far, we've got a Ranged Weapon matching the largest CoC/SG in the game in the Melee rounds. ;)

And it also kills in Ranged. Unlike CoC/SG.

So what's the problem?

The Ranged nerfs to DD damage too much? The Melee DD damage too high? People just not spending enough in thier Melee Weapons? Physical Ranged damage just *far* too much?

Why Does Ranged Physical beat out Ranged Magical, but for some reason Melee Physical can't match Melee DD?

Why Aren't FB/MM bought into the discussion here? Isn't every DD better than Phsycial in the Melee rounds?

If there were Melee Weapons as large as Ranged ones, would this issue even be here? I seriosuly doubt it.

Is the overall balance problem here that Ranged PHysical is just *so good* if you're going to invest your CBD in a weapon, you do so on a ranged on, and neglec Melee?

Wouldn't the solution be to overall reduce Ranged damage to bring parity back not only to Ranged Physical and DD, but also to Ranged/Melee weapons?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 25 2011 8:45 PM EST

I am giving my reasons for the reason we see more archers than melee tanks.

Oh and, Melee Physical damage being less than Melee DD damage is a reason there are more archers than Tanks?

It's convoluted logic, but I see what you're saying...

Your arguement is the high Melee DD damage forces anyone wanting to use a Weapon to go Ranged.

I disagree.

I'm sure it's the High Damage, and going first, of Ranged Damage that forces those who want to use a Weapon to go Ranged.

As a by product of this, Physical Melee is underrepresented/invested in, and as such Melee DD is left to become superior.

QBRanger December 25 2011 9:20 PM EST

On the bright side everyone can agree ranged DD's are a joke, am I right?

Certainly.

I have asked for the ranged DD penalties to be lowered or removed many times.

QBRanger December 25 2011 9:45 PM EST

I think we come to the same endpoint in our logic just by different routes:

As a by product of this, Physical Melee is underrepresented/invested in, and as such Melee DD is left to become superior.

It is because to equal melee DD, one would have to use a ToA and invest hundreds of millions of CB in a melee weapon. And then have to invest additional xp in Bloodlust. While a mage has to only invest in HP and DD.

It is very unequal due to the pitiful damages one sees in melee with appropriate NW weapons.

Yes, HP leech and VB effect are very nice. However the extreme DD damage in melee is just too good for most people to pass up given its free cost.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 25 2011 10:01 PM EST

But people would Ranger.

If the other choice of investing that hundreds of millions of CBD into a Ranged Weapon instead, wasn't just down right better.
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