Total of 243 votes

True		32.5
False		49.0
just Tiny		18.5

Comments

Wooo first! Mages are overpowered in my opinion...either that, or AMF is underpowered...can't figure out which :P

-- [SIBT]Gardiner Amarth

2nd

:)

And yes they are overpowered.
They have no real need for NW, tanks do. So tanks have to at some point stop and forge or spend USD. If they forge, the mages shoot ahead. The mages will probably pass them anyway because they can always buy BA.
Tanks would be ok if:
1, VA was somehow made useful again.
2, ToAs were removed from the game.
3, DD had it's damage reduced.

-- MrC

yea. i believe they are

-- BMWheatley

naa, not again...

Don't nerf them again - CB2 is going to be pure mono culture. No armor, seeker ammo, Mage Shield, ToBF, extreme expensive equipment and upgrade costs. My strongest opponents are tanks. Btw. my MM Mage does less than 20% avarage damage compared to Conquest, one of CB strongest tanks. As the even the rare equipment gets cheaper every day, players will soon start to massivly forge armor and weapons, tanks have a lot more of options while mages have to pay millions soon for 1% more damage.

-- PoisoN

no

not overpowered - simply much easier to run.
NW can help both mages and tanks, but the potential that tanks have is much higher.

not overpowered, just harder to get to full potential.

-- maulaxe

25th; balanced

-- 5583 days old {Gaza}

yes

they are overpowered because of a lack of cashflow tanks have. the reason tanks are at the top is USD. i just think we need more money in the game. ToA removal would crush tanks not help them where did you figure it would help? all new players are told it is best to start as a mage. i think the conditions need to be so that a good tank can beat an ok mage. right now a single tank & a single mage @ the same MPR are not even. (sorry if this was to long)

-- WeaponX

It is not overpowered. It is just easier to maintain. I am losing to tank teams 100-200k below me. Power comes from having a high NW. Mages can only go so far up in terms of damage dealt.

-- xDanELx

"ToA removal would crush tanks not help them where did you figure it would help?"

It would actually make them much more powerful. ;)

-- MrC

Well, Kinda.

I agree that the problem is that tanks rely more on their armor and weapons and stuff, while us mages just, well, don't need them. Still, though, lots of the people at my same PR that i Can't beat are tanks with awesome ranged weapons and HP....my FB may be good, but they kick my butt :P
Maybe balance it out a little by making it more necessary for mages to buy equipment and stuff?
Sidebar: USD makes it tough for all. I could pump USD into my mage and have a mage/wall combo that would annihilate, but, well, i'm not spending USD :P
ha, you thought yours was too long, look at this waste of finger energy. agh! my BA are piling up!

-- Bootsanator

just a lil

kind of , but not really. tanks can still own mages

-- 48Zach

The tables will turn.
The price of CB$ will fall.
The age of tanks will come.

You just gotta give it a lil time...=)

-- {CB1ate}aupStar

It is like this, Mages at low-mid mpr = overpowered. Mages, at high mpr = useless. Now, how to balance that ? I have no idea.

-- TrueDevil

TD it's not that they are useless it's that the hulked up USD tanks are at the top.

-- WeaponX

No, not really

It's not that mages are overpowered, but that low-NW tanks are underpowered. And without camping, it's really hard to get cash to increase the NW of tanks without using USD.

Nerfing mages isn't a solution, because then they couldn't compete with high-NW tanks. Likewise, boosting tanks wouldn't help, since it would also affect high-NW tanks.

I can't think of a solution that's "fair" to all...

-- Maelstrom

Rock v Paper v Scissors

Balance is a tricky thing. Balance between just two like tank vs. mage can be particularly tricky. Balance between three though can be easier.

Thus I give you my version of rock/paper/scissors in the world of CB2. In this world tanks beat mages, mages beat archers/ranged, archers/ranged beat tanks.

Perhaps a couple tweaks to help tanks vs. mages. A tweak or two to help mages vs. ranged and a then a tweak or two as needed to help ranged vs. tanks. Helping each of them in just the one direction and not the other will allow the players (relieving the admins of this) to keep balance.

For example, decrease the cost of upgrades (or increase the maximum effective limits) on Mage Shields. Thus tanks survive ranged better vs. mages and can best them. But then Mage Shields should penalize ranged badly so that ranged can't also beat mages. Then make Beleg's or someother archer/ranged gear more suseptible to DD spells, but give the archers/ranged more power against tanks (e.g. increase the punch of axbows and exbows). Then to really separate ranged from melee substantially increase the penalty for equiping range and melee weapons (e.g. increase dex penalty, no mage shields with range weapons equipped.)

This could open up several new strats. At first more tanks arrive to take advantage of the number of single mages and mage teams. Then, of course, archers/ranged specialists arrive to even out things with the new tanks and give a good target to the mages. Eventually would there be a successful combo of range, tank and mage in a char? Sure maybe, but with new gear occassionally coming out things could always get a little shook up. There would be three main groupings of gear then (1) gear for mages that helps against archers/ranged, but doesn't work for tanks due to limitations/penalties (2) gear for archers that helps against tanks but doesn't work for mages due to DD spell limitations and finally (3) gear for tanks that helps them against mages but leaves them suseptible to archers (and can't also be used by archers).

-- colonel

Dont nerf again, just make tanks stronger.

Oh, COME ON! mages dont need to get nerfed AGAIN. =|

-- Untouchable

I didn't vote...

...no good choices.

Mael hit it pretty well...the imbalance isn't stright-up -- it's top to bottom. Mages low, especially with a ToE, are tough as nails. Higher up, character maturity (read: lots of NUB cash and USD) makes the mage row tougher to hoe.

-- QBsutekh137

Reason for the Results

Ever think maybe the results will be decidedly for mages since, as mages are overpowered, the majority of people are mages and thus will definately have majority vote that mages are NOT overpowered?

-- Gilgamesh2090

nope

I'm not even a mage. They're cool like they are, learn to put on a mage shield if you don't like them. It works quite well (^>^)

-- QBOddBird

mages overpowered?

that explains why all the top chars are mages...

-- ! Love Barney

Waaaah!

Considering that mages took a rather big hit last change month, I see no point in hindering them further.

-- InebriatedArsonist

Tanks Rule!

I run a mage team and it gets slaughtered by tanks.... absolutely slaughtered... Ok, so my guy can hit for 300k per hit against a single opponent, but he only hits once per round. The big Morg tanks are hitting for that three times or more per round...the multi-strike ability that tanks have surely more than counters the mages' abilities...

-- QBJohnnywas

no comment

-- AdminShade

OVER POWERED

I think all gear that adds% to DD should be considered like weapons on your PR. Too easy for a mage to have very low pr and climb way up to the top.

-- DAWG

I've taken the no vote route.

Mages are esier to play. They need no items. Armour is not necessary, and weapons do nothing form them. In terms of power, as been said, Mages *are* more powerful than tanks. The reason *at the moment* the upper levels are Tank dominated is purely because of casn investment into NW. Tanks run behind mages on performance, but can overtake them through NW. The NW-PR link made this harder, but still possible. We've reached a level of the game where large cash investment rules. Given more time ( don't know how much more), the tide will turn back to mages at the top, when cash investment becomes too impractical and their damage remains linear. Plus, Mages are far more powerful and dangerous when kept single. Evey point of XP that is not available to go into their DD spell reduces thier effectivness. CoC is a slight exception, as additional bodies increases the cast time of the spell, which allows it to reach it's full potential. But, Damage and the major reduction of that damage (AMF) is directly proprtional to the size of your spell. AMF is no counter to a single Mage. In the long run, no team will be able to layer a AMF high enough to dent large Single Mage spells. MgS's are still a viable option thought. So much so, that they are almost a necessity at high levels.

That being said, Mages are boring to play. HP + Spell, maybe a EO if you really want, but nothing else is really needed, and there's no way to tweak or personalise your Mage. No skill helps, no items really change the way it will play.

Boring, but very effective.

Too effective for new players. A new player should play nothing else bar a single mage until they know the game. Then, they will probably do just as well sticking with it.

-- AdminQBGentlemanLoser

Major difference between tanks and Mages

Can be sumerised by this;

"the multi-strike ability that tanks have surely more than counters the mages' abilities..."

Only if the Tank has invested (and at higher levels heavily) in their weapon. Along with Str, Dex, VA and Armour.

The mage just needs HP + DD.

Got a large bankroll, Tanks rule. Otherwise, a Mage will always be better.


-- AdminQBGentlemanLoser

maybe

It depends on your opponent

-- CmdrHawkeye

I'm biased

but I still don't agree that they're overpowered. The balancing factor is the tank ability to increase their power with added NW. Yes, the USD factor comes in here. The top tanks would probably not have been as powerful without it, if they had just increased their weapons with in -game earnings. But the fact that a tank can dramatically increase their power in an instant by equipping a new weapon/blacksmithing an existing one is something a mage can never do.

The long run, as GL says, is another matter. Tanks will reach a point where they can't afford to up their weapons any further and mages will just keep growing and growing. But that growth slows as well...

-- QBJohnnywas

Slows...

But doesn't hit a 100 Million CB2 Wall. ;)

Tiny, the largest FB inthe game should do, on average, around 764,446 damage to a single target (in melee, reduce by ranged penalties). After the Melee damage change, (MPB is still 1 Mil) what is the average damage per hit of the larger weapons int he game? I assume with multiple hits, the most USD costing ones can beat that damage (especially with the far overpowered BL...), but I dobut anything without serious cash investment can. And with the NUB and NCB, there will be single mages with FBs larger than that in some months time.

Plus, Mages *really* do get slaughtered by Mage Shields... Is there a top ten team that doesn't use one?

-- AdminQBGentlemanLoser

Just wanted to clear up for DAWG that DD-enhancing armor actually adds _more_ to your PR than an equivalent weapon would since there is no "armor allowance" the way there is for weapons.

-- AdminJonathan

they must not have ca$h cause ...

if mages pumped as much USD into a CoI and AGs as tanks have into AxBows / ELBs / MHs / DBs ... then they would absolutely crush tanks ...

-- chappy

Have you seen the upgrade curves on those items Chappy?

-- Rubberduck[T]

yeah, it would only cost me 94.6 million CB2 to take my Alatar's gloves from +12 to +19, i guess i'd better save up my $1400.00 USD to pay for that.

sorry 'bout the sarcasm, but, seriously.

-- Bootsanator

Balance?!?

You want a balance poll, let's talk ToA. :P

-- QBBast

I guess it's silly then to spend ENORMOUS amounts of USD on mage gear, but how much do you think 75mil NW MH cost in USD??? All I'm saying is that people are willing to do it with tank gear, but it is laughed at when someone suggests that the mages spend some USD to keep up...

-- chappy

Balance?!? Part 2

"You want a balance poll, let's talk ToA. :P"

And add BL into that.

Chappy, 75 Mil into a MH gets you a bone crushing weapon of minion destruction.

75 Mil into a pair of AG's get's you from +14 to +15 (guessing at actual pluses, but you get the picture...) for a whopping +1% to your DD spell.

-- AdminQBGentlemanLoser

Leave my mages alone!!

Could you just leave us alone....i will never be top. I will just be good against those who come unprepared.

-- YNM

GL, the fact is at that point, you could have a possible bonus of more than 30% to your DD score (if your smart enough to have the tat on someone else, unlike me), which is a huge NW based bonus to xp, HUGE.

-- AdminQBnovice

or just nerf fireball

-- Tach

Interesting topic choice.

Mages will always have a slight advantage at lower levels unless you figure in dexterity. With this in mind mages can be some of the most powerful teams. I would say nw would even help with displacement boots and MCM's.

-- Zacharia Andrew Pa!n

Blah!

Everyone is talking about balance (hence the poll =P ) of tanks vs. mages. Neither is out of hand. With proper strategy, you can easily defeat tanks and mages alike. Remember, this is CB... you don't have to have just 1 minion ;)

-- Xentrik

Look at all the mages at the top, and the best NUB user is also a mage!

Wow-e-wow-wow-wow

Stop nerfing me :/

The FB was nerfed last change month, even with my AGs I have still not made up the gap I lost in power. Currently I have a 31% bonus to DD with named +16 coi and named +13 AGs.

We are easier to maintain, yet in the end require much more MPR or some insane amount of money sank into 3 items, CoI, AGs and Corn (for those who go EM).

-- Special J

Novice, Tanks can also get that sort of bonus to both their Strength and Dexterity (Easier than Mages, there are moer stat boosting items for Tanks than there are for Mages), if youre willing to not use a Tattoo. It just costs more as you need to pay for a weapon as well! ;)



-- AdminQBGentlemanLoser

Just a Tiny bit

Mages are a tiny bit overpowered through the beginning and middle of the game, but it all comes just about even(if you're smart) once you become an elite character. And yes, there are so many mages, and that's the only reason the poll shows it as "false"

-- th00p

Networth Schmetworth

I've not put a single USD into my character, but it is an easy mage nerf. It'll only get tougher, as well. (^>^)

-- QBOddBird

Meh

an AMF can acctually stop a spell you know. also you could just give your guys ranged equpiment and kill them in ranged combat

-- Nohosioko

Amf is useless when they use Dispel and TOE and you wont be able to kill a mage in 3 round of ranged combat

-- Tach

Also consider DM

I think that mages for the NW are overpowered. At low MPR, mages are by far overpowered as tanks need NW to deal damage well.

However, at higher MPR's there is a lot of USD giving high NW's (myself included) making tanks, esp with a TOA superpowerful.

However, I do not think anyone believes that COC or MM is overpowered. It is just the FB that is the problem. With the archery nerf (and it was 40% less damage), FB is the only way to kill fast in missile rounds.

Now add the DM spell (which most FB mages have) and most FB mages almost never see melee rounds where tanks have an advantage. The lack of having GA or AS to help vs FB mages is a large disadvantage for tank teams.

I believe it is not just the FB that is overpowered but the combo of FB and DM that is overpowered.

-- QBRanger

Ranger; I disagree.
I've got team 7 (DM/FB) at 558k MPR which; after not fighting for 2 months had a score of just under 800k
Mechanical squirrel; who had not fought for about 3 months had a score of 727k at 300k MPR

-- 5583 days old {Gaza}

scratch that; DM is broken; i just didn't realise mechanical squirrel had DM...

-- 5583 days old {Gaza}

FB/DM Overpowered? No....

The FB/DM combo is easy to beat...construct your team to last to melee, which should be your goal anyway if you're running a morg tank team, otherwise what's the point? Don't place too much reliance on defensive enchantments, if you can manage it don't have any, but make sure you have AMF. Then make sure you have decay trained somewhere that can last into melee. That FB/Dm mage, probably with a FF will either then be killed by you and your melee-centric attack plan or will kill himself and his familiar with friendly fire in about round 5...

See, it's not difficult and I don't see what's overpowered about it? One hit per round - which is easily diluted by minions and mage shields and AMF - in comparison to three or four hits per round for a ToA tank.

Mages have many counters. But large NW really only has large NW to counter it...

-- QBJohnnywas

Few thoughts...

More splashback from FB, beef up ToBFs advantages(more protection or more damage sent back) against FB.
ToAs put to 50%/50% instead of 60%/40% to disappoint the ToA+morg+BL users, although a random drain between 10%-20% from morgs/bth would please others.
Have BL minions take at least 5% extra damage from attacks.
Archery can either get some extra damage percentage to attacks or lighten up on DX pens for pure archers(no melee) to be consided an option. Lower lvl newbs could enjoy this.
Lower the effectiveness of dispel since no one likes RoS or the bonus granted ;p
Lower ToE restistance in melee by a smig, 3% or so.
Boost UC "attractiveness" in some way or form, eg. combat gi grants 1/4 a UC point per enchantment but still keep base +10

Few use Archery these days and was a mass movement toward BL, dispel has had a boom of users*bout time* especially with newbs, and still only the bold and brainless use UC.
Don't need to remind jon of the need for a rare sling. Maybe even a DX/UC boosting power shield for a debatable contradiction topic. Wouldn't stand by this....but bring back CF which would work on both tanks and mages topping off at 35% reduction when half the lvl of DD/ST.
Noticed the UC push yet? Well here's where things get wrong. Give UC users a huge advantage against mages and/or being able to hit 2 minions at the same time for less overall damage than that of one target. Kind of like the CoC of tanks.


-- A Lesser AR of 15

Decay on a Wall?

Johnny,

I see your point, but having decay on a wall is not a great idea. It is the only way to get decay to last to melee vs FB/DM teams but then again vs teams with AMF your wall is killing itself casting the decay.

I tried that when Imp was BCS with horrible results. Vs BCS it worked very well, but vs other teams, esp tank teams, my wall would be 1/2 as effective as it would decay itself to death.



-- QBRanger

Ranger, trust me I know the problems of a decay/wall - i've put it on my team, taken it off, put it on. But that's another whole set of problems to think about. My illustration was just to show how FB/DM can be countered. As far as I'm concerned if you can counter a strat in the rock/paper/scissors game I don't think you can label it overpowered.

Just my (not so lol) humble opinion... ;)

-- QBJohnnywas

Just because something is beatable, doesn't mean it's not overpowered.

And it doesn't matter if high NW tanks are powerful in the higher levels - They will be with or without any changes -, boosting tanks powers wont change that at all, instead it will keep things the way they are and allow lower PR tanks to be effective in lower ranks.
Besides, the first two of the suggestions I already made (ToA removal, VA buff) would not help out the higher NW tanks. Well, VA would, but not much.

-- MrC

Pay money LOL

I won't pay USD for anything that is why I play FREE online games

-- CmdrHawkeye

supportership is worth it, though. even if you won't pay regularly, i'd pay supportership...the only free game i've "supported" myself :P

which is a testament to jonathan. way to go! rock on CB!

-- Bootsanator

Balance

Add seekers, and no mage can survive long enough to kill a ToA Tank team. Add AS/GA and Tanks kill themselves on your E's. It is balanced fairly well. You just have to pick your poison(s). I had no problem running an Archer team either. 2 Axbows and 2 Elbs. That team was a killer as well. It is more about what you select to go with your team as far as the trainable stuff goes.
Anyone can come up with a decent strat, but you have to commit yourself to it and keep going, even when it seems you have hit a wall, keep plowing eventually you'll break thru.

-- Mikel