Dispel magic a bit to lucrative? (in General)

Myonax January 7 2005 4:56 PM EST

If you haven't noticed, Dispel magic currently returns about 80% of its spell level.

A 1000 Spell level DM will dispel 800 spell levels of any Enchant defense (ED) of the enemy team. Personally I think this is a bit overpowering reducing up to 4 equal level enchant defenses to 20% of their original power.

I thought about suggesting DM key off the number of ED a opposing team has, but that is easy to work around. Perhaps a better method would to be cap the total number of spell levels a DM can dispel.

An example with numbers:
Team A has a Dispel Magic of 1000.
Team B has an AS of 800 Prot of 800 GA of 800 and a VA of 800.

Currently: team A would fizzle all 4 spells and team A would have countered 2400 spell levels with 1000.

My proposal. A DM can only dispell 140% of its level of an ED. So a 1000 DM could dispell 1400 Level of enemy spells. 1400/4 = 350.

So in this case Team B would cast at 450 on its 4 enchants.

Shoot me if you love the overpowered DM in its current form, but witnessing the vast number of teams that have trained it at the top ranks, I think that speaks towards its current power. Again not this would only effect teams with multiple EDs, teams with single EDs such as mine would see no benefit.

Keep in mind an Equal level AMF and DD spell only get a 50% backfire, and its not completely nulled.

private January 7 2005 5:10 PM EST

You are correct in thinking that DM is very powerful, though I do wish to point out that it is by level, not effect. Anyhow, DM can destroy a lot for very little exp. However, it is poor against people with 1 or 0 ED and cannot work with EO.

Myonax January 7 2005 5:21 PM EST

Every number i mentioned was in level...

Bubo [DTC of Bubo] January 7 2005 5:40 PM EST

Myonax, You are correct that the DM is the CB equivalent of a BFG against ED's. However, it's a very limited and limiting ability. Allow me to explain a little.

Dispel Magic is Limited
DM has only one beneficial target: Defensive Enchantments. It has no effect on DD, OE, or Skills. On a big picture view, it is only 25% effective (modified by the ratio of the 4 skill sets in use by the population of course).

One could argue that AMF has the same overall effectiveness with a much weaker effect, which brings us to the next point.

Dispel Magic is Limiting
AMF may have a weaker effect than DM, but it lacks the huge problem that DM has. AMF can be combined with EC to address Physical and Mage teams, but DM cannot be combined with AMF or EC effectively. New purchases of DM have been surprised to discover that when DM dilutes enchantments on a target, it dilutes all enchantments including the offensive ones that the character uses. When I switched to using DM myself, I found that I lost my cheap counters to Mage and Physical teams and had to completely revise my strategy because of this.

Having an opponent choose to use DM may be devastating to an Enchantment oriented team, but it represents a very serious tradeoff to the purchaser of DM. At the moment, DM is one of the battle killers because of the sheer number of people who have learned to rely on DEs in CB1 who have brought that dependence into CB2. As time passes and people continue revising strategies in CB2, we will see DM have a smaller and smaller impact on the game. I would not be surprised to see DM become an infrequent choice as time passes on, although I could also see a cycle of people switching between EC/AMF and DM to chase strategy shifts.

QBsutekh137 January 7 2005 5:52 PM EST

maybe it supposed to be kinda strong? look at all the as/ga people...kinda same for everyone. dispel makes people think more before deciding what to do. i have no clue what to use in when i buy more people for my team. its no fun having to choose, but why should as/ga always be slam dunk?

[FireBreathing]Chicken January 7 2005 6:09 PM EST

ahh.. an AMF with 50% backfire, keep in mind that the caster is taking an equal amount of damage to itself. You could consider 50% backfire roughly the same effect as simply nulling the spell.

Dispel is unarguably strong against pseudotank teams and AS, GA teams no doubt. But it is likely that more and more people with convert to tank-based teams that have one or no enchantments at all.

[CB1]moniker January 9 2005 12:21 AM EST

on a related note, DM seems to cast against each opposing enchanter individually, rather than against the combined effect of their spells. Normally, two enchanters with AS would stack their spells, and deliver a conflated effect for the spell. If DM reduced the effective casting, it would always fizzle the 1st enchanter before the second (second delivering the higher effect). I've seen several opponents where the second AS caster fizzles, but the first does not.

This means that two AS casters with weaker spells get no advantage for combining against DM - much better to have a single large AS that can stand against DM.

Ulord[NK] January 9 2005 1:20 AM EST

As for judging DM to be overpowered at this point of the game: it is way too early. DM's restricting factor as the previous posters have pointed out is a big one. Without ec, tanks will tear through your team rather quickly and dm offers no substantial nullification to that. Without amf, it also makes your team vulnerable to magic users. I think the tradeoff is fair enough. It all depends on coming up with a strategy that will get you up there with good efficiency and adapt as you go.

[FireBreathing]Chicken January 9 2005 2:06 PM EST

'DM's restricting factor as the previous posters have pointed out is a big one. Without ec, tanks will tear through your team rather quickly and dm offers no substantial nullification to that.'

Well, you take out its VA which is somewhat vital for any BL tank. Than you take out its protection. And don't even think about helping you're tank out with GS or haste cause those will get destroyed too.

Majestik Moose January 9 2005 2:15 PM EST

imo. DM works pretty fine, save for one aspect. A full DM minion on a 4 minion team will not only fizzle a full trained AS on a 4 minion team, it has even greater effect. (Due to AS multiminion penalty). DMs power is 80% of its level, while the AS level is decreased to about 75%, from having four minions.

Majestik Moose January 9 2005 2:19 PM EST

basically, I'm suggesting that AS multiminion penalty should be lifted

QBRanger January 9 2005 3:33 PM EST

Right now Im using DM, but I suspect as the game matures Ill switch to an AMF/EC combo as tanks STR and DEX become very high and spell casters AS become very high as well. However there are ways to defend against an opponents DM, some of which are obvious. Just adds another level to the game and causes people to decide which way to go.

Also, since DM is a new spell, we really dont know if there is a plateau on its effect at higher levels.

TrueDevil [AAA] January 9 2005 9:15 PM EST

Same here, I always lost to chara who has DM on one of the minions, or single mage that has one, and not to mention that some has much lower PR than my chara. It's kinda disturbing, because I believe that my AS is high enough (only AS trained on that 1 minion), but a 4000 DM almost fizzles my 7000 AS.

[FireBreathing]Chicken January 9 2005 9:36 PM EST

just don't use any enchant defense. Train your hp, don't cast it.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] January 9 2005 10:01 PM EST

Don't worry about tanks with not having EC. Single minion BL tanks are weak to other signle minion characters but will probably be a chance against a 4 or 5 minion (including familiar) team. Single minion archers will lose to your possible 5 minions. Leaving 1 minion alive at the end of ranged combat hurt archers a lot, leaving 2 alive is much worse.

EC was and is a great spell but it is by no means a must have spell.

DM however hitting so hard and before combat starts makes it very, very good. Not only is it a way to hit your opponent's HP (AS) before the fight begins but it also weakens most 4 minion teams to the point where the fight is just about won before the first round (what team with 1k strength stands a chance against your 10k ST?).
As much as I enjoy seeing my DM fizzle peoples' AS I agree with the:
"basically, I'm suggesting that AS multiminion penalty should be lifted"
Only I'd like to see a penalty for DM on a multiple minion team, same as AS gets, both keeps things fair between DM and one of it's best targets and stops the unfairness behind having 1 DM minion on a 4 minion team and stoping your 4 minion opponents' chances at using ED spells effectively. That and it's another nerf that would benefit me ;P

Bottom line: DM is an awesome spell, by no means a must have spell though, borderline overpowered, make all nerfs to benefit Chuckles.

Stephen Young January 17 2005 5:05 AM EST

I'm gonna keep kicking the horse here and agree with Chuckles. A 4 minion team that has an enchanter training only DM completely obliterates 3-4 minion teams with EDs. Especially with the AS multi-minion penalty.

A multi-minion Dispel magic penalty, or the removal/reduction of the AS multi-minion penalty would greatly balance the DM giant.

Stephen Young January 17 2005 5:28 AM EST


At the time of this posting,

5.4% o f all minions have trained AMF.
5.9% of all trained xp has been used for AMF.

11.7% of all minions have trained EC.
1.9% of all trained xp has been used for EC.

Only 2.7% of all minions have trained DM.
7.7% of all trained xp has been used for DM.

So, the few minions casting DM are casting it at considerably higher levels than EC or AMF.

16.8% of all minions have trained AS.
14.8% of all trained xp has been used for AS.

So there are over six times as many minions casting AS than DM. AS no one has trained AS to the level of Dispel Magic. 47.91% of all the xp in the game would have to be trained into those AS's before that could be achieved.

A lot of pro-DM con-DM talk can be gleaned from these numbers, but I'll leave that up to you guys.

AdminShade January 17 2005 10:13 AM EST

people just need to work out the differences:

DM targets AS GA Haste and GS (and your own AMF and EC)

to counter your AS level getting lowered ==> train HP
to counter your Haste or GS getting lowered ==> train DX or ST
to counter your GA getting lowered ==> well no solution here :#

every pro has a con. people used to say ELB's are overpowered now that they are only few in number people find something else to name over powered...

Majestik Moose January 17 2005 10:36 AM EST

well.. personally I don't mind the effects it has on GA/GS, and wouldn't if I had haste, but the multi-minion penalty on AS, makes AS useless imo. (for every team with more then 2 minions).

TrueDevil [AAA] January 17 2005 11:29 AM EST

Maybe the reduction to AS should be done for the TOTAL AS, so if 2 minions had AS, add them first and then reduce by DM.

QBJohnnywas January 17 2005 11:46 AM EST

It's not that lucrative. Ok, if you come up against a team relying heavily on enchantments you can do them quite a bit of damage if you're using DM but, most people have realised that you need to either cast those enchantments really high or train XP into HP if you're going to survive past the first round.

And don't forget that you have to choose between DM or AMF/EC. If you have both you risk reducing the effectiveness of each spell. Too high a DM and there is no point casting EC or AMF; too low a DM and is there much point having it?

I think it's an important addition to the game but it actually requires a lot of thought and making some tough decisions/choices if you are going to use it. It's useless against pure HP teams such as single tanks/mages. It's useless against Jig familiars. And it's existance, whether you use it or not, forces you to be less reliant on enchantments.

On the other hand the direct damage tattoos require you to have AS, so DM's existance makes them a lot less powerful. I don't see it being overpowered, all I see here is the same situation we have in the rest of the game. Choose your weapons carefully and fight!

Bubo [DTC of Bubo] January 17 2005 12:00 PM EST

5.4% o f all minions have trained AMF. 5.9% of all trained xp has been used for AMF.

11.7% of all minions have trained EC. 1.9% of all trained xp has been used for EC.

Only 2.7% of all minions have trained DM. 7.7% of all trained xp has been used for DM.

I'd like to point at my earlier post regarding the trade offs. Now, to play the Pro-DM advocate on these numbers.

There is one major reason why AMF and EC have fewer total xp trained into it. A lot of people who train AMF also train EC, and vice versa. The fact that training DM makes AMF and EC significantly weaker, if not useless, makes DM trainers devote more DM to it. Also, in order for DM to have an effectiveness of more than 80% versus target, they must have a significantly higher level in it.

You noted the significantly higher number of people training AS. DM trainers have also noted how many people are still relying on AS, and consider DM a better return on investment, leading to a higher amount of xp being poured into DM. I'm surprised that there is not a higher percentage of character's trained in DM.

It is correct that a team with a single minion trained in DM can absolutely devastate an enchantment based team. However, keep this in mind:

DM vs. ED = DM wins if DM is equal or greater
DM vs. DD = DD wins
DM vs. Tank = Tank wins

One thing I've also noted recently. I don't know why, but it seems that when I go against a team with a minion devoted to AS while I have a minion devoted to DM, they still manage to get AS to go off for multi-hundred points, and a few times for over a thousand. As PR goes up, the 20% gap in equal levels of DM/AS leads to more points of AS surviving the DM.

QBJohnnywas January 17 2005 12:17 PM EST

To add some more meat to the DM isn't overpowered argument, the highest scoring team at the moment is an 'old fashioned' EEMM team, with AMF and AS. No sign of DM anywhere on that team. When I see the number one team being one that's heavily reliant on DM I may change my mind but at the moment I say leave it alone. It's not invincible, or a quick way to win.

Bubo [DTC of Bubo] January 17 2005 12:22 PM EST

Almost forgot. As you go up in power level, the effectiveness of DM diminishes. An example:

100 AS and 100 DM = 100 Effective AS and 80 Effective DM = 20 AS
1000 AS and 1000 DM = 1000 Effective AS and 800 Effective DM = 200 AS
10000 AS and 10000 DM = 10000 Effective AS and 8000 Effective DM = 2000 AS

The ration between AS and DM remains the same, but the gap that DM doesn't cover grows with PR. In a nutshell, as your character grows, your concerns over DM go away. That's why few high level characters have DM trained to a high amount, if it's trained at all.

Bubo [DTC of Bubo] January 17 2005 12:23 PM EST

Bah. I don't know the ratio of multiminion penalty for AS, so remember to factor that into the above example. The idea remains the same though, as they go up in equal amounts, the gap of AS that escapes DM grows.

Tribute January 17 2005 12:36 PM EST

Sure you have more AS than DM as they both go up, but you also do much more damage.

Majestik Moose January 17 2005 2:54 PM EST

the ratio on a 4.minion team was 75% when I tested.. which means that DM totally kills AS

Peter at home January 17 2005 7:25 PM EST

DM doesn't kills AS, because of the ratio of 75% on 4 minion team.
the 80% effect of DM lowers the level of AS so there will be some AS cast if the level od DM and AS is the same. But there will be a penalty for having 4 minions to the lowered AS what was cast.

TrueDevil [AAA] January 17 2005 9:34 PM EST

Johnny, most Powerful EEMM team that doesn't have DM on it, has like lvl 80k+ ToJ on it. Don't forget that the Tattoo make a lot of difference, so I guess the only way to beat EEMM team that has DM is a very powerful tattoo.

Stephen Young January 18 2005 11:09 AM EST

Dispel Magic may/may not be overpowered (I'm leaning toward slightly too strong), but Haste and Giant Strength are worthless.

Why? EC eats up Strength and Dex, DM eats up GS and Haste...

MoeDrippins January 18 2005 11:12 AM EST

> I guess the only way to beat EEMM team that has DM is a very powerful tattoo.

Or another team with a high DM.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 18 2005 11:23 AM EST

Why? EC eats up Strength and Dex, DM eats up GS and Haste..

That's the beauty of it. Train Str and Dex naturally and become weak to EC. Train GS/Haste and become weak to DM. No one will use both EC and DM together.

Each strategy has it's weakness. A lack of weaknesses leads to dominating power, which kills strategy.

And this is a strategy role playing game...

(I take it we're talking 'bout multi minion teams here...)

This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0019UV">Dispel magic a bit to lucrative?</a>