tattoo unequipping penalty (in Changelog)

AdminJonathan March 16 2005 4:46 PM EST

To discourage playing "musical tattoos," starting tomorrow tattoos will lose 1% of their experience each time they are unequipped.

Update: this only applies to unequipping the tattoo entirely. You will still be able to move it without penalty to different minions within the same Character.

Update 2: grace period extended until Saturday.

Biscuitback March 16 2005 4:47 PM EST

ouch... lol

Concepter March 16 2005 4:49 PM EST

Uhh Ohh..

Bubo [DTC of Bubo] March 16 2005 4:51 PM EST

I just saw my first javascript warning about unequipping tattoos. The odd thing is, I did not see it when I force-unequipped my current tattoo by equipping a new tattoo, but I did see it when I attempted to transfer it from the unequipped inventory to another character. I don't know if that's a bug, or just an artifact from it being put in but not live yet.

Also, does the penalty apply when switching between minions on the same character, or only when removing it from the character? (I'm pretty sure it's per minion, but I just wanted to be certain)

Telkir March 16 2005 4:51 PM EST

Ooerr, missus :)

DizzyGuy March 16 2005 4:53 PM EST

I unequip it now and then to check the NW on it... I guess this also discourages tattoo swapping as well

Tenchi Muyo March 16 2005 4:53 PM EST

Yayyy, finally!

Bubo [DTC of Bubo] March 16 2005 4:53 PM EST

I also didn't get the javascript warning when I force-unequipped it via equipping body armor.

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] March 16 2005 4:58 PM EST

Well now I'm really glad I didn't spend a million dollars on those base tats...

Alienfb March 16 2005 5:03 PM EST

Giggles, smiles then just roles about laughing.

Keep going Jon, keep them guessing

WeaponX March 16 2005 5:09 PM EST

ok... so what happens if i want to sell my tattoo?

[EG] Almuric March 16 2005 5:09 PM EST

How do you check NW now? Anyone? Not that it's overly important, just would be nice to know.

AdminShade March 16 2005 5:21 PM EST

WHOA this is some hell of a change!

but i do seem to like it, more steady tattoos that way (but less traffic in them perhaps)

mihalis March 16 2005 5:43 PM EST

I remember some players posting they saw tattoos as some kind of minion that you could transfer from one team to the other... well, good luck with that, now!
(Of course this happens AFTER all those tattoos were in auction...)
Checking NW will still be very easy and convenient: simply unequip all weapon, ammo and armor, transfer it all to another of your characters, and check the NW of your character equipped with the tattoo only, this will be the NW of your tattoo and you don't lose level!

Vagabond March 16 2005 5:47 PM EST

atleast all those over size tattoos can get down to the right size now :P

wldflr March 16 2005 5:54 PM EST

Is there anyway to return a tat early that's on loan to avoid this penality?

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] March 16 2005 6:15 PM EST

is there a way to see the Exp of our Tattoos to see what the lvl would be if we WERE to unequip our tattoo?

Arorrr March 16 2005 6:21 PM EST

Yah, how do we check the NW on the tattoo without unequiping all of non-tattoo armor?

Also, if I transfer the tattoo directly from one of my character to another character on the same account, do I still get penalty?

I think this should only apply to account transfer/loan, not betten character (like money/armor tax)

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] March 16 2005 6:23 PM EST

Arror - "Also, if I transfer the tattoo directly from one of my character to another character on the same account, do I still get penalty? "

Thats why hes doing this, but yes i would like to see exp and NW without having to unequip it.

QBJohnnywas March 16 2005 6:56 PM EST

The change makes sense given the latest change to tattoos making them an addition to pr. After all you lose xp if you unlearn a skill/enchantment. With regard to NW - the price to sell to store - what percentage of NW is that? You don't need to unequip it then, just check that, do your sums and there you go...

Blarg March 16 2005 7:00 PM EST

grr, way to foil my charts Jon, 3 for 3 so far :P.

Lumpy Koala March 16 2005 7:42 PM EST

Well I am sure it's not a problem to unequip everything and send everything else to another char, then inspect the original char again for Tattoo's N/W :P
But but... can we have a much simpler way to view their N/W please ?

{CB3}-HR22 March 16 2005 7:45 PM EST


mihalis March 16 2005 8:07 PM EST

Why do tattoo have NW anyway? If we are going to lose levels to see their NW, why can't they have a fixed NW, minimal to go on auctions, and those wanting to trade for instant upgrades will have to agree on a price per level... Tattoos count in PR, they don't need to count in NW also, do they?

3D March 16 2005 8:08 PM EST

when u mean lowering tattoo exp, it lowers effect of tat yes, but does it lower level to correspond with the lost exp?

Mechanical Dragon March 16 2005 9:19 PM EST

I'd assume yes.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] March 16 2005 9:42 PM EST

I may have switched a few tats about but I assure you it was purely experimentation and not to try to get a few more wins :P anyway could we have somewhere we can view our minion pr, and maybe add it to the graphs?

Superman9 March 16 2005 10:17 PM EST

Is there a point to this?

Fishead March 16 2005 10:42 PM EST

1%? Much more generous than I would have been. Nice change!

QBRanger March 16 2005 10:54 PM EST

Actually some of the change is good but IMO a large part is not so good.

Personally I like to try different tattoos on my character to see how they will work and if any will be better than others. Now I probably have to choose a tattoo tonight to stay with. Sort of a bummer with tattoos being relatively new.

I personally would like to see tattoos being able to be equipped and unequipped, even transferred between your OWN characters. However if you lend or transfer them to another character they lose a certain percentage, perhaps 5% or so. This way you can try different tattoos without penality but cannot lend them out.

Just my 2 pennies.

QBsutekh137 March 17 2005 12:32 AM EST

I am with the early posters about needing a warning when the tattoo is forced off. One errant body armor assignment and POOF! Bye 1%.

QBsutekh137 March 17 2005 12:34 AM EST

Also, if the tattoo artist is ever a posssibility, I assume that asking for the artist's services will be able to be done with the tattoo equipped? Kind of like the blacksmith?

Undertow March 17 2005 1:01 AM EST

I know with something as new and different as tattoos changes were to be expected, and they have changed a lot over time. But this is my least favorite. Sure, you should have some sort of unequipping your tat pen, but this is a bit much.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] March 17 2005 1:41 AM EST

" Sure, you should have some sort of unequipping your tat pen, but this is a bit much."

1% is a bit much? Huh?

You have a 1mil tat, you lose 10k lvls. That doesn't really change much... although if you do it 30 times you'll start to see it hurting you.

[From CB1]Tequito March 17 2005 2:52 AM EST

hmm... Your pr before tattoo should be displayed when you view your character then, cause I used to unequip my tattoo to check my pr really quick, and yeah, nw should be displayed somewhere too, cause I'd also unequip it to check that.

vendo March 17 2005 5:58 AM EST

I just accidentally forced off my tattoo.
Could you please place a warning in there?

As an alternative give each tattoo a 2-5 min grace period wherein if it's not re-equipped on the same char(not minion) the penalty kicks in.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] March 17 2005 6:00 AM EST

I'm okay with having to look at the "minions PR" stat page to see what my non-tattoo PR is, though I suppose it's pretty easy to check if you are on the first page.

The unequipping, and moving, everything else just to see what my NW is when I'm only wearing my tattoo seems a little silly.

Agreed, Ranger, the penalty is unfortunate for those of us who would like to try different tattoos. I was rather hoping to try a ToA, just to see what Todd's grinning about.

Mythology March 17 2005 6:46 AM EST

I have to agree, whats the point in this except to be really annoying? There's no point in playing "musical tattoos" since having an overly large tattoo makes you char's PR go through the roof...

mihalis March 17 2005 7:48 AM EST

I think Jon wants us to see a tattoo as something you place on your character when you start playing, and that is entirely part of your strategy: it contributes to PR, and when you unequip it, it is as if you would unlearn a spell, if you move your tattoo, it's like reordering your minions. Some differences: you can "unlearn" your character by unequipping the tattoo, and the unlearned "XP" can be moved to another character (good point), but you don't completely chose how the XP is spent (bad point).
Why would someone play the "musical tattoo"? Let's say you are in a clan, you could unequip your tattoo, hoping to give lower rewards to those who have you in their favorite list, so that they eventually stop fighting you => you lose less clan points. But at the same time, other lower PR clan fighters will add you to their favorite list? Yes, but then, when you equip your tattoo, they will lose and you receive rewards and clan points from them. And I think we don't want to be victims of that kind of "musical tattoo" strategy.
Well, it is just my opinion, and I may as well be wrong.
(By the way, I don't like this change because I also find it annoying, no matter how many good reasons there are for it).

Skunk March 17 2005 8:37 AM EST

The change is good, but in my opinion, it's really annoying ;)
Cause I forge with my highest char (with my ToJ) And when I don't have any forge job. I fight with my other char (with my ToJ)
But I guess that was the the point behind this change

QBRanger March 17 2005 8:39 AM EST


Your forging ability is based on your minion PR, so equipping your tattoo makes no difference in your forging ability.

Skunk March 17 2005 8:40 AM EST

Ow, didn't knew that. Thank you, then I'll equip it on the char I fight with ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 17 2005 10:34 AM EST

I'm getting the notification message pop up when I try to move an already unequipped tattoo to another character.

Does this penalty effect already unequipped tattoos?

MoeDrippins March 17 2005 10:56 AM EST

I'm probably missing something but other than it might not fit "the vision" of how the game is supposed to be played, what about this change is "good"?

To those who like this change, why? What benefit does it confer to the game?

I find the "musical tattoos = bad" hypothesis false, or at the very least, completely inconsequential.

Educate me; I Don't Get It.

Will [Retired] March 17 2005 11:00 AM EST

Its like when you get a penalty for retraining your experience, no different. -they both affect your power rating so why not?

QBJohnnywas March 17 2005 11:00 AM EST

This change has moved tattoos nearer to what their critics wanted, near permanent items that you have to commit to if you want the best from them. None of that loaning/moving around to give newer players an unfair advantage. Instead you're forced to say 'I'm going ToE' and stick with it. Not necessarily a good thing I agree.

GnuUzir March 17 2005 11:00 AM EST

Well Jon got rid of Tattoos in rentals, so now he is making it tough (not economical) to loan them out...

QBJohnnywas March 17 2005 11:04 AM EST

There have been a couple of threads about using tattoos to get the most out of being farmed. Chucking a large tattoo onto a farm to raise score and taking it off to drop score then re-equipping. This change is the equivalent of the negative xp/rewards change in Cb1 to stop people stripping their chars when offline.

QBJohnnywas March 17 2005 11:05 AM EST

In other words Moe, I don't think this is meant to be a good change for us....

MoeDrippins March 17 2005 11:21 AM EST

And yet, I can loan out, rent, equip, unequip stupid big pieces of equipment? Somehow this just seems... an odd arbitrary rule to cure some symptom that doesn't affect gameplay to begin with.

But that's me. <shrug>

AdminJonathan March 17 2005 11:58 AM EST

To answer those of you who can't figure out why this needed to be done:

Score needs to be meaningful for anything battle-related to work as designed. Playing musical tattoos renders score a joke: someone with a high tattoo could have just taken off his tattoo, or someone with a low score could have just donned one. (Throwing around high-level equipment screws with this too, but not nearly to the same degree.)


Relic March 17 2005 12:01 PM EST

What about the NW questions..How can you view the Tattoo NW without unequipping?

mihalis March 17 2005 12:10 PM EST

In the "manage characters" page, next to the ammo row, would it be possible to have a row called tattoo level, and one called tattoo NW; these would show the tattoo level and NW (obviously) for the equipped tattoo of each character. It's convenient since you can have only one tattoo equipped for each character. This would solve the big question some are asking. And if you're in a good mood, you might also add the minions PR in that page. I don't care that much about it, I'm just trying to give some idea...

Sevare March 17 2005 3:10 PM EST

Well you can look at it this way, at least the experience being taken is from the tattoo and not the minion...i mean ripping a tattoo from your body and handing it to a friend to use would hurt i imagine....

maulaxe March 17 2005 4:00 PM EST

gentlemanloser already mentioned this, but Its also happening to me so i would like to ask as well - why does this message pop up when attempting to transfer unequipped tatoos to another character?
does the penalty apply when unequipping AND when transferring?

AdminJonathan March 17 2005 4:17 PM EST

It only applies when unequipping. Fixed the bug that sometimes popped it up for transfers.

Superman9 March 17 2005 9:42 PM EST

Why can't there be a time penalty - now it hurts us none musical tattoo people...

Sevare March 17 2005 9:48 PM EST

how does it hurt people that dont play musical tattoos? you dont lose experience...your tattoos didnt become less effective.

Victim March 18 2005 4:38 AM EST

My $0.02 on the subject is that now tattoos ARE part of your character, so there is NO advantage in using a tattoo that is not helping your overall strategy, since it adds to your power you want every point of power to count so you can defeat much higher scored opponents to get better rewards. My advice is to unequip (before it's too late) your tattoo until you are ready to get the maximum benefit from it. I dropped my ToJ because I really don't need to waste that much of my power rating on melee combat and HP. I might add it back in once I can support it with GS, Haste, etc.

LaBelle286 March 18 2005 11:50 AM EST

Well how am I going to know the price of my tattoo now, if I cant unequip it and go to auctions and fake sell it to see its worth rise every so often... :(

>I need to see that to make myself fell better! :) <

Sevare March 18 2005 2:45 PM EST

take a look at your char how others see it (got to manage characters, click on the team name) note the networth, come back later look at the networth again

AdminJonathan March 19 2005 9:27 AM EST

the penalty is now live.

Victim March 22 2005 4:48 AM EST

The penalty is going HELP some people. They can level down their ToJ whenever they want.

Myonax March 22 2005 3:27 PM EST

Why would someone want to level down a tattoo?

I finally see March 22 2005 3:42 PM EST

For better rewards

bartjan March 22 2005 3:53 PM EST

A lower level tattoo will not increase your max. battle rewards. Yes, your PR is higher because of the tattoo, but you are also capable of fighting higher opponents. Just adjust your fight list...

Victim March 24 2005 2:42 AM EST

A tattoo acts as a 5th minion, and if you rely heavily on AS/GA those spells are MUCH more efficient with that 5th minion. If that 5th minion isn't contributing much to your power level your rewards will be comparatively higher. A ToJ will also benefit from Haste and GS since it can also fight. If the tattoo level is too high compared to the rest of the party's levels, it is going to hamper your rewards. Best to take it off until it is relatively weaker compared to the minions it is supporting. Minions that do DD damage spells wouldn't make sense to level down, but if they are high level compared to your party, you better make sure your strat is compatible with what they are doing, or you are wasting an awful lot of PR and won't be able to beat as many higher scored characters as you could without the tattoo on.

Mags March 24 2005 3:17 AM EST

Victim is precisely right. Paying to "insta-down" a ToJ doesn't seem like a good sign.
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