ToE change (in Changelog)


AdminJonathan May 3 2005 12:58 PM EDT

lvl of endurance granted to ToE wearer reduced by 40%; endurance also granted to companions (at a lower level)

TJK endurance is unaffected.

SBW May 3 2005 12:59 PM EDT

Yay, changelog

Special J May 3 2005 12:59 PM EDT

Thank you for the start!

Wasp [Demon Forging] May 3 2005 1:00 PM EDT

Excellent.

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] May 3 2005 1:04 PM EDT

/me gets revenge on ToE mages.

Vagabond May 3 2005 1:06 PM EDT

endurance also granted to companions (at a lower level)

Awesome

QBJohnnywas May 3 2005 1:06 PM EDT

Nicely balanced. The ToE finally becomes useful to multi-teams!

QBRanger May 3 2005 1:09 PM EDT

Imagine a TOE on a character with a tank and a CBF wall. That wall will have tons of hp/endurance. No wait its Nardo Polo's character, now virtually unstoppable with endurance on his CBF wall and over 200k HP.

LumpBot May 3 2005 1:09 PM EDT

Hurray! Finally =D

sasquatchan May 3 2005 1:09 PM EDT

Hmm. Of my fight list, two guys I regularly creamed now win, both have CoBF. Can ToE holders now whine about the need for a CoBF nerf ?

Now have to consider, pay to move to a ToA, since a SMT doesn't benefit as much from the ToE, and retrain more into HP ?

Quark May 3 2005 1:23 PM EDT

Not unexpected, and pretty balanced. I had readjusted my favs to beat the most powerful possible, and I've now lost 10 that used to just be in my reach. Good work, Jon.

QBRanger May 3 2005 1:24 PM EDT

Something has to be up.

Conquest tapped Robusto with A Blood Red Greatsword [7239];
vs his wall that i used to do over 30k damage to before the TOE change.

In missle with a x85 elb i do 15-20k vs his Wall where I used to do between 35-40k.

Now a COBF wall will never die if the character now has a TOE anywhere on it!!!!

QBRanger May 3 2005 1:29 PM EDT

Perhaps after figuring things out, I suspect the other minions get the full 75% endurance instead of a part of the 40%.

For instance I used to do over 90k with my elb vs Nardo Polo's enchanters in missle but not I do 40-50k. They have 0 AC.

Can someone else please confirm this?

Arorrr May 3 2005 1:30 PM EDT

Yah, stack effect of CBF+MS+ToE = hard to beat. Unless your tank has a bigger CBF or your mage COC/Decay larger than his AMF.

Wall strat is now more effective.

AdminJonathan May 3 2005 1:35 PM EDT

ranger: you misunderstood: the endurance level is lower, but that doesn't affect the 75% cap, it just means you have to do less damage before it blocks less than that.

with gnuuzir having the biggest ToE in the game, even a relatively small fraction on the enchanters can still block a pretty decent chunk of damage, as you note.

QBRanger May 3 2005 1:45 PM EDT

Thanks for the quick reply. I missunderstood the intial post. I thought the percentage reduction would be lowered to 40% from 75% max. Not the max the tatto can handle.

So right now with his Tattoo at 400k it can handle a MPR of 160k before getting overloaded?

Mythology May 3 2005 1:48 PM EDT

Any chance of a vague figure of "a lower level" 10%? 20?

QBRanger May 3 2005 1:51 PM EDT

The changes to the TOE, to me really does not matter. At my level I still cannot overwhelm a 212k TOE's endurance in melee since I only do 30-40k in melee with my pitiful x67 MH and my pitiful 300k str on my TOA minion. SO the change is not any different for me except a bit more damage in missle that I dole out.

AdminJonathan May 3 2005 1:52 PM EDT

80k dmg, not 160k mpr

that's on the "main" minion, the others are substantially less

QBRanger May 3 2005 1:55 PM EDT

Sry meant MPB earlier not MPR. A brain fart by me!

AdminJonathan May 3 2005 2:02 PM EDT

actually more like 53k, oops

hmm, I probably shouldn't have given that out... oh well :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 3 2005 2:09 PM EDT

Let me get that right... A 400K tattoo hits the 75% damage reduction cap for damage up to 53K?

:)

So around under 13.25% of your Tat hits the cap?

:)

Mags May 3 2005 2:11 PM EDT

On the face of it, this makes both magical damage and CoBF damage even more effective because the damage per blow is so much greater than physical damage. Is that a correct interpretation?

QBRanger May 3 2005 2:25 PM EDT

Mags,

You hit the nail on the head.

Lets say with a x67 MH and 300k str, my max damage in melee is only 50k.

Even with a large AMF, high PR SMTOEs do over 100k damage to my last minion standing.

Mags May 3 2005 2:27 PM EDT

In light of all that, here's my new prediction for overpowered strategy:

CoBF Wall
ToE-wearing CoC/MM mage

Also -- does this mean the endurance from ToJ affects the rest of the team at all?

AdminShade May 3 2005 2:27 PM EDT

Tanks are widely nerfed :(

LumpBot May 3 2005 3:01 PM EDT

No one says he is done yet, maybe a CoBF nerf will come about

moser May 3 2005 3:05 PM EDT

Shhhh!

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] May 3 2005 3:06 PM EDT

Why does the ToE get all the attention? I'd like to see the ToA affect all the minions as well, including the added evasion it gives. In my opinion this has just made the ToE even more effective. Put a CBFMgS tank with 200 AC in front of a CoC mage wearing a ToE and... WoW!

QBRanger May 3 2005 3:09 PM EDT

Barron,
Your idea of the WM team is now going to be quite in vague.

With endurance effecting Walls now, look out.

Will [Retired] May 3 2005 3:13 PM EDT

**Does this mean that the endurance provided by a ToJ will be granted to companions too?

Chocolate Thunder May 3 2005 3:16 PM EDT

TJK endurance is unaffected.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] May 3 2005 3:17 PM EDT

I have 4 tanks on Don Kixothe and 2 have a AC of 201 and one has an AC of 161. My 3rd tank is a CBF/MgS killer. If I changed my ToA to a ToE, sure my 4th tank won't be as effective in doling out physical damage, but the ToE will have such a positive effect on the other 3 tanks that it might not matter. I have to give this considerable thought....

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] May 3 2005 3:59 PM EDT

I doubt I will raise much sympathy with this post. However; I could not remain silent. Basically, this change did not effect a single one of my fights. I still lose to the ToE mages, and pretty much demolishes anyone else except others with high NW and PR. If the ToE was used on a multi minion team on my fight list it has yet to help them win. That said, I’m not sure the value of this change, but I personally believe that it has now made the ToA the worst of the tattoos to use.

As I mentioned when it was first announced that tattoo's would add to a person's PR, that the ToA is adversely affected by this. Now more than ever, the ToA is the only tattoo that truly suffers because now the ToE applies to all minions, only the wearer more so.

So if you take a low level character, say 10K PR and add a lvl 500K TOJ/TOF/TOI/TOS, his PR jumps to lets say for arguments sake, 100K and his main minion, whatever it does tank/mage/enchanter/wall whatever has about 5K HP (if they are lucky) and they die immediately, but the ToJ fights on and wins the fight. As does the 100K HP having ToI/ToF/ToS minion. So their PR increase is justified. Because the person has an oversized tattoo they win a lot more fights in a PR range they would normally be unable to touch.

Before the change to ToE, I felt the same could be said for the ToE as the ToA, in that, if you take a 10K PR character, give him a 500K ToA, that same character will not win the same ratio of fights in the new PR ranged simply because the wearer is REQUIRED for the fight to be won. So yah I have 5K HP 300K ST 300K DX and one minor fireball kills me and my big tattoo. Sure most Tanks wont touch me, or hurt me, but this is mage blender, who is concerned if you can beat a tank?

Yes I know 10 evasion was added to the ToA.....so now I can dodge more tanks. Still wont help me fight in this new PR that the tattoo forced me into when I face even the smallest of DD spells.

Now the ToE was a trickier argument in the sense that it takes more thought to see that if you put a 500K ToE on a 10K character, you will still lose the majority of the fights in your new PR range. The reason being that 25% of 50K damage dealt is plenty to kill your measly 5K HP with the big ToE. So once again, since the wearer is required to win the fight, the ToE has PR unfairly placed on the wearer.

Now, the ToE can apply its effects to all minions. So now if I take a 4 minion 10K PR team, apply a huge ToE, that chances of me winning a fight in the new PR range is greater simply because the damage reduction applies to some degree to everyone, the damage that can be absorbed is spread over a larger area and the chance of survival increases.

So yah, the ToE got the BOOST it deserved in that it is more effective in relation to the PR it forces on the wearer when compared to the same level TOJ/TOI/TOS/TOF.

So, basically small level ToE's got minor nerfed, mid to upper level ToE's basically are business as normal (correct me if I am wrong, but besides ranger, no one can deal the damage I do in ranged. That said, if I can't now beat Chicken Farm after the change, what good did it do? I couldn't beat him before either and he unlike others I would like to be able to beat is sort of within my PR ranged) AND the injustice was that was a PR increase was semi-resolved by adding the ToE affect to all minions.

In conclusion, this "nerf" was quite the opposite, it was an increase in the ToE's effectiveness, so I want to know is a similar ToA change in the works, or should I just surrender now, convert my ToA to ToE and slowly build my ST and DX up to a level that is consistent with my tanks HP, because my CoBF +40/MGs +25/185AC 140K HP wall minion could probably use the damage reduction a 180K lvl ToE could provide him (I have a 180K named ToA right now)

Let me also mention as a total side note, it is my belief that the Tattoo Artist caused our current ToE problem. If you could not convert a large ToJ to a large ToE this would not be an issue. Why you say? Because as I stated earlier equipping a big ToE on a small character does little to increase that characters chance of winning at the new PR. SO, before all the restrictions were in place for musical tattoos, no one lent out ToE or I should say few people desired to use them simply because it did not help them win like a big ToJ did. I believe that if a ToE was grown on its own to a level where it nerfed 75% of the damage a do, then that person deserves to beat me. Lending out a ToJ so that others can raise it for you, then converting it to a ToE allows you to circumvent the problem of trying to get someone to level your ToE for you, because they wont do it more than once (when they realize how much the ToJ does compared to the ToE).

Yah probably too long, but I tell you what I was waiting for this ToE nerf with baited breath figuring it would be an OK hedge for the soon to occur NW nerf. Now, I think the ToE is stronger than ever, so if that was the goal, mission accomplished.

Icewindvz May 3 2005 4:45 PM EDT

Yea, I feel the same way.
Well since TOE and TOA become junk now, How about lower little bit PR that TOE and TOA that will add to the MPR.
However, if then we will just undo the change that had just been done...lol.

Personally, I feel it’s better to add more powerful (new) items, instead modify the items already in the game. That old player who already own elite items, don’t have to change to something already in the market that was weak, instead got a new aim for newer items. (Or unfairly benefit player who already own the items, was weak but now become stronger)

Maybe just me, I believe what made MMOPRG great is new Quests and Items are often add to the game, since CB2 don’t have quest, maybe we should put more attention into new items or even skills?

Well I know to figure out and add an items and skills into this game is a lot work for our Dear Jonathan since we only have pay a lifetime $5 for this game. =)

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] May 3 2005 4:50 PM EDT

Interesting...I used to be able to beat Lord of the Pit 100% of the time. Now I lose. Why? Because it is a 4 minion EEMM team with a ToE. So goes balance.

King2key May 3 2005 5:02 PM EDT

Sefton: "In conclusion, this "nerf" was quite the opposite, it was an increase in the ToE's effectiveness."

That may be true in some circumstances, but I had to delete six people from my fight list so far, so it was a substantial nerf to me...

sasquatchan May 3 2005 5:03 PM EDT

Sefton,

I've been banging on the point of the artist being the source of ToE problems for a while, and folks who unjustly had their cake could eat it too. Alas, that horse is out of the barn, though I wouldn't shed a tear if the artist went away.

Valgasu May 3 2005 5:03 PM EDT

it's called a CHANGE month, because things are going to change... and you whine just because one of the changes made it so you can't beat a guy you used to be able to beat who has 60k MORE pr than you? that's laughable

QBRanger May 3 2005 5:03 PM EDT

Well I also thought that the tattoo artist would start to take more than 5% xp of the tattoo starting in May.

Arorrr May 3 2005 5:05 PM EDT

Just undo the changes that ToE adds to all minion and the problem is fixed.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] May 3 2005 5:07 PM EDT

Valgasu, it wasn't a whine but a simple demonstration of the effect of the ToE "nerf", ie it wasn't a nerf at all, especially for multi-mage based teams. It is more effective than ever. Are you always this easily irritated? LOL.

Valgasu May 3 2005 5:08 PM EDT

usually, yes :)

miteke [Superheros] May 3 2005 5:12 PM EDT

I agree. The ToE needed to have the damage it prevents reduced, and this change only causes that to happen if the ToE is small or the attacker is toting some huge attack (usually magic) so my tank is still screwed by ToE mages and is now also screwed by Ablative Shield teams.

Myonax May 3 2005 5:14 PM EDT

You should have seen the time Val fined Todd 1 Million CB$ for being over the ammo limit :P

Valgasu May 3 2005 5:15 PM EDT

ah... happy memories :)

mihalis May 3 2005 5:20 PM EDT

It says ToE change, not ToE nerf. Anyway, it's a nerf for SMToE, which is what a lot complained about. Shouldn't you all be happy now and rejoice? (just lost 33% of my fight list...)

TheEverblacksky May 3 2005 5:48 PM EDT

as a ToE user.... it didn't do that much damage... maybe one or 2 more people can beat me now, but it hasn't changed that much.

QBsutekh137 May 3 2005 5:56 PM EDT

The change, as usual, is about balance, not necessarily a nerf or an augmentation.

The cap on the ToE's effectiveness was lowered substantially. Ranger (and others), correct me if I am wrong, but:

- The ToE is only 100% effective on blows that are 12-13% of the ToE's level (on the ToE wearer). We theorize it is 12.5%, or 1/8. So, if a ToE is level 100K, and I hit that ToE wearer for a 100K blow, 7/8 of my damage (after AC reduction) is getting through to the Protection stage (damage reduction is now AC/Endurance/Protection in order). So, it still takes a rather large ToE to stop damage.
- For the damage the ToE is enabled to combat, it stops 75% of it.
- ToE still precludes a minion from having much AC. The MCM used to be the big AC-enhancer for mages, but not when a ToE is in use. That means a mage is likely depending on the ToE alone for damage reduction.
- Physical damaged was just enhanced by 10%.

The highest ToE in the game right now caps at stopping around 53K damage. Most powerful blow in the game is over 100K (probably against a soft target, but still). Physical damage is probably going to outpace ToE growth.

That about covers the single-minion ToE scenario. Now, about multiple minions... The ToE only grants endurance to the non-wearers at a lesser level. We don't know what that level is. But it is lesser, and assuming it has the same caps on it, a lot of damage is still going to get through. Teams with large "wall" minions or with large AS could see some benefits here. Sort of like the previously-useless enchanters have now become mini-ToJs, at least as far as the toughness goes.

Spreading out the ToE is an excellent balance idea. The problem with SMTOEs is that they are so concentrated that they can outpace everyone else with HP and their DD level. Now they can't do that. They get hit harder, and they don't benefit from the multi-minion endurance. They either need to vastly grow their ToEs, hire more minions, or simply fight at the level they should have been hitting in the first place. *smile*

This has really made the ToJ redundant, in my opinion. The ToJ is most useful for its toughness. It doesn't do much offense, and worse, it kills itself on CBFs. Switching my ToJ to a ToE would benefit all minions, and would even reduce AMF backlash for my mage. Plus, as Ranger pointed out almost instantly, a tank with large AC accompanied by a ToE-wearing mage would benefit greatly. Problem there is that the tank will not be all that tough, since he won't be able to wear a ToA. But if his AC can get the remaining damage down within the ToE cap, that will be one tough tank to kill.

Duke May 3 2005 6:06 PM EDT

Chet the main thing that stop my strat is ToJ with there Dx i lose the advantage of double hit, and combine with there endurance they receive 1/2 of the damage.So in reality they are very hard to kill and can make some damage.ToJ vs a tank team that dont have a COBF they are the best tat.The probleme is the amount of damage the CoBf can deal to tank and ToJ.

QBRanger May 3 2005 7:34 PM EDT

Chet,
Sounds about correct as far as I can see.

QBsutekh137 May 3 2005 8:09 PM EDT

Excellent point, Duke. I had not thought of that part of the ToJ's "toughness".

If it weren't irreversible, I would have converted my ToJ to ToE already...but now I am not as sure... *smile*

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] May 3 2005 8:23 PM EDT

Well if I am to allow myself to be critical of others I must own up when I need to be critical of myself. For whatever reason, as soon as I saw the change I tested it with no difference in results. That surprised me so I tried again, and no change in my fights. I am going to guess that after clicking train link???, something changed for certain, as the ToE's I was previously unable to defeat, I can now.

I still think the ToA should not add as much PR, however; the change to the ToE appears to be right on target, so I have to say I was wrong about that portion of my earlier post.

/wipes egg from face and smiles

miteke [Superheros] May 3 2005 8:42 PM EDT

All I know is that SMToE are still kicking my butt and I have a tank character designed to combat them.

QBsutekh137 May 4 2005 12:02 AM EDT

Just curious, miteke, but how can you say your tank character (assuming Cute Animals) is designed to fight mages when the tank does not even have an MgS? Is it at the BS or something?

Chocolate Thunder May 4 2005 5:00 AM EDT

I think the 6 million in NW definitely says ToE killin' Tank.


Side note: Thank Goodness we brought those SMToEs down to size. Now to be top 5 you need lots of NW and a CoBF, like it should be!

QBsutekh137 May 4 2005 10:28 AM EDT

Such subtlety, Chocolate! I love it!

(and completely agree with your thinly-veiled comment...)

miteke [Superheros] May 4 2005 11:43 AM EDT

Because the character has a 150K level AMS courtesy of an enchanter (a good 1/3 of the total points), plus the usual tank skills.

Tank + AMS shield = mage killing tank.

Instead it = fried or frozen tank.




It boils down to
tank + ToA + AMS < mage + ToE + AMS

you get a dead tank, in spite of the fact that the AMS for the tank is specifically designed to combat exactly that offense and in spite of the fact that all the AMS on the mage is completely wasted against the tank. I don't mind if some combinations beat other combinations, but that particular contest should be weighed heavily in favor of the anti-mage tank. In my opinion, the fixes will not be right until this imbalance is fixed - though it may be more a matter of fixing AMS or DD damage than of fixing the ToE.

miteke [Superheros] May 4 2005 12:14 PM EDT

By the way, the main reason I believe this imbalance to be true is that AMS is not effective enough.

I believe that a defense that is specific to a restricted list of offensive abilities should have an affect relative to the rarity of that offense. In this case a AMS of about 1/2 to 2/3 of the DD spell level should neutralize it (basically offer a .5 effect). Now THAT would even the playing field a bit.

Also, I think the effectiveness is currently based on AMS level vs. spell DAMAGE.* Because DD spells do so much damage at higher levels, the AMS is rendered a lot less effective. At lower levels it seems to be a good buy since the DD damage has not gotten out of hand. Perhaps the AMS effect should be based on a level vs. level comparison instead of a level vs. damage comparison.

* Ignore this BS if effectiveness is not calculated this way and I'm making a bad assumption.

Arorrr May 4 2005 12:29 PM EDT

Miteke, I don't know why are you complaining about AMF. Here is AMF:

Jerry cast Antimagic Field on Old Drawf's familiar (0.46) [vs 194K level FB]
Jerry cast Antimagic Field on Gold Mine (0.39) [vs 220ish level FB].

I wonder what's your AMF level but it does 0.46 and 0.39, which is damn good. Just ball park figure, your AMF whipes out a total of 194*0.46 +220+0.39 = 175K level...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 4 2005 12:41 PM EDT

Oh and Miteke, AMF is compared versus the target DD level. Not damage.

But then the level ofthe spell determins the damage it does...

At and equal level AMF stops you taking around 40% of the damage done to you, and also returns about 40% of that back at the caster. It's not underpowered.

Chocolate Thunder May 4 2005 12:54 PM EDT

[TBT]miteke you are missing an obvious point. You are based solely around your tank damage .. but you have less than $7million in NW (2million of that is likely your tattoo). That would be why you can't beat a ToE mage. If i fight spid (same-ish PR as me, slightly understocked for his PR figuring $5million per 100K MPR seems about average) he takes me to the wire. If he had another $4million or so in NW (in the right places) he'd beat me easily.

Side note: And if he had another $25 million in NW and a $5million NW CBF, he'd beat everyone easily... but that's another argument all together :)

Anubis May 4 2005 2:35 PM EDT

My fightlist is now longer and my score higher!
This is despite having over 500K untrained experience too!
I'm in no way unhappy about this :)


ps I'm a ToE Fireball mage

miteke [Superheros] May 4 2005 3:09 PM EDT

The points you bring up are interesting but still does not refute the fact that

Tank + AMS < SMToE + AMS.

In the first example, it was noted that a multi mage teams does not fare as well. No duh! When you split experience and lower the level of the DD the AMS suddenly becomes effective. I do fine against multi minion mage teams.

In another example it was cited my net worth is too small. That would explain why I'm not beating SMToE chars at higher levels as they pump $ into experience, but not why should I lose to those of lesser level or equal given same net worth? The money I have not pumped into NW yet, they have not pumped into experience. Should be a wash.

Arorrr May 4 2005 3:35 PM EDT

Miteke,

May be it's not about the "effectiveness" of AMF. May it be your strat or something about "balance". You said it yourself; you did very well against mutiminion mages but not against SMTOE.

While other players who found their fight lists are longer and start beating SMTOE, you are not. May be it's your strat. Stop blaming on AMF and try to change your strat. May be pumping more NW will help since you are going for T strat.

miteke [Superheros] May 4 2005 3:44 PM EDT

Arorrr, every time I come up with a criticism someone parrots off the old tired slogan "must be your strat".

Once again, the problem is that

Tank + AMS < SMToE + AMS

This should not be so and has nothing to do with my strat. That is my criticism, not that I do not win enough battles. It just seems so counter-intuitive. Can anyone else verify this equation so folks know it is not just me?

Can a tank out there with equal NW and equal MPR/PR send a tank with AMS after a SMToE with AMS and see if what I say is true? If you win and I lose then it must be my strat, otherwise I stick to my convictions.

Arorrr May 4 2005 6:03 PM EDT

If the game boils down to equation like this:

Tank + AMS < SMToE + AMS

There isn't strat any more and it's extremely boring. If this game is so trivial that you can put a define equation like above, why so many people playing this game? It's all about strategy. Remember what happen in CB1 with this equation:

Single T with big ELB > everyone else

That was one reason why Jon abandoned CB1 and made CB2.

Arorrr May 4 2005 6:13 PM EDT

BTW, let me explain why you lose to Mage, not only SMTOE:

Tom HP: 20 ST: 20 DX: 19 AC: 18
Antimagic Field Vampiric Aura

Jerry HP: 20 ST: 20 DX: 19 AC: 18
Antimagic Field Guardian Angel

Bugs Bunny HP: 185,860 ST: 201,403 DX: 99,344 AC: 36
Archery Protection +ToA

1. That's 40 HP for both Enchanter. They aren't survive and dilute any damage for your single T.

2. VA+GA does not help you vs mage. With only 180K HP, little AC and some protection, your only T will get whoop badly by any mage. Why get GA when you have no HP to retaliate? First rule with GA, you need muti-minion team with enough HP to spread out damage and maximize damage return. Your VA does not help you much since you are a light tank with little protection and HP.

Mage that lose to you is either they dilute too much experience and get overrun by your AMF.

It's your strat. A light tank that spend too much exp on AMF/GA/VA/PROT. Remove GA. Put it to AS. You may have better success.

miteke [Superheros] May 4 2005 6:52 PM EDT

The low hit point enchanters serve a purpose, particularly against MM mage which each typically absorbs the first two MM rounds a mage dishes out. Even against a FB or CoC mage they serve a purpose the first round of casting. They are meant to die. I'd have to crank them up to 20K or more to resist the first wave of attacks anyway and would rather pump the exp into AMS.

The VA and GA are low and do not hog any significant experience. The VA does help against mages, easily returning the hit points I would have gained if I put them straight into hitpoints. I experimented with it first and found it an unqualified success. The GA is probably not as useful and I should probably dump the experience in it to something else, but it is not much and wont affect much.

I originally had the tank doing the AMS but found it much better to put it on a throw away enchanter.

I still challenge you to find a
....
TANK + AMF that beats a SM that puts at least half their experience into the DD spell.

You still can't help but criticize a working strategy and keep missing the point :)

miteke [Superheros] May 5 2005 1:27 PM EDT

Here is an example:

Moby: Score / PR / MPR: 273,168 / 175,991 / 132,801

He is a very straight forward Fireball mage with a ToE.

I can beat him but occasionally draw, but only because my PR is much higher. Can anyone out there find a tank in his PR range that does not have insane net worth (or a tank at about 75% his PR that does have insane net worth) that can beat him, particularly using AMF?

That is my challenge. And from his MPR, I think you will all fail.

AngryZac May 5 2005 1:32 PM EDT

Just check his fight log, Shifter seems to fit the bill to me. Yes he has 3 mil NW, but that probably is only from his TOS and maybe a bit on his elven cloak.

Mags May 5 2005 2:31 PM EDT

I count 5 mages on Shifter(Weredrow's char) if you include the ToS. I hope that's not the tank you were referring to.

Caedmon [Revenge of the Forgers] May 5 2005 3:29 PM EDT

I didn't realize Moby was a SMTOE. I stomp him. (no offense. :))

I realize my pr is a fair amount higher than his, but our scores are comparable. The reason I beat him, for those keeping score, is the triple hit I usually get the first round of melee. I am a AMF/VA + ToJ + Tank.

miteke [Superheros] May 5 2005 3:42 PM EDT

Of course your scores are compatible. That is the problem. Compare PR.

Caedmon [Revenge of the Forgers] May 5 2005 4:04 PM EDT

Well, my pr is 40k less than yours, and I beat Moby consistently in 4 or 5 rounds. Considering that my ranged is an afterthought, I feel confident I could defeat Moby even if he bulked up 25k pr overnight. So although I'm not completely denying your original point, tanks much less powerful than yours can take him.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 5 2005 7:29 PM EDT

Beat me in 4 rounds! ;) But my CBF is only +1...

Tiny, poor thing...

miteke [Superheros] May 6 2005 3:03 AM EDT

You are 50 PR higher and about 12 million NW higher than him. You are way out of his league.

Caedmon [Revenge of the Forgers] May 6 2005 8:21 AM EDT

And I said as much, miteke. But you were complaining about struggling against him, and I'm just saying that at least one tank with 40k pr less than you is beating him readily. Easily enough, in fact, that I could spot him another 25k pr and not worry about it. Of course I'm higher pr than him -- I'm higher pr than most characters I beat in the first melee round.

Phaete May 6 2005 8:34 AM EDT

I'm happy that the ToE changes still make the strategy viable, but no longer overpowered.

As a SMToE myself, i have to say Cau and Gyaxx are the best examples of decimating SMToE's
This taking in consideration all available means to be effective, not just hoping that you can beat someone who simply fights more fights and thus will outgrow you :)

miteke [Superheros] May 6 2005 10:11 AM EDT

Caedmon, you are missing the point. You have a 40PK, 10 million NW, and a 10% clan bonus over him and can beat him handily. Well, he is on my fight list too since I typically beat him (unless the fireball does one of those flare things and produces extra damage that melee). My point is that a tank of equivalent value to him has absolutely no chance. The AMF does not help enough to offset the advantage spells have over melee weapons.

This whole dialog should be moved to a different thread since it has to do more with DD and AMF than it does with ToE.

My suggestion would be to do this:

Double the affect of the AMF, but spread it amongst the mages on a per level basis. If one mage has level 200 and the other has level 100 in a spell, the level 200 mage would get 2/3 of the AMF and the level 1 would get 1/3 of the AMF. The dual mage teams would not be affected in the least - the AMF seems to do well enough vs these teams. The 3-4 mage teams would fare better. But those nasty single mages would get a double dose of AMF.

Caedmon [Revenge of the Forgers] May 6 2005 10:38 AM EDT

My last post on the subject, and in short sentences so everyone will understand.

1. miteke complained about drawing with Moby, despite a huge disparity in pr.

2. Someone blamed miteke's strat, and miteke got upset.

3. I piped in, saying that despite my pr being much lower than miteke's, I stomp Moby constantly.

4. I realize my pr is higher than moby's, but it's lower than miteke's, so if miteke is struggling with moby, it's his implementation, not his strat.

5. FWIW, I draw Maxmillian, who's a SMTOE with my pr.

Out.

Arorrr May 6 2005 11:18 AM EDT

I think Miteke is trying to get AMF change to fit his strat, instead of the other way around.

AMF doesn't do squash if there is no HP to back it up. The problem with his char is that he's putting too much exp into AMF and expect mage to kill themself over it, except his "single" light Tank die well before SM kill themself with AMF.

Some theoratical equations:

Huge AMF + 190K HP = ~50% block to comparable DD level = 190K/0.5 = 380K effective hp.

Large AMF + 190K + 3*50K (from AS) = ~35% DD block = 340K/0.65 = 520K effective hp.

That's with assumption with 0AC and no protection. Also, I haven't take in the account of spread effect of FB,COC. Including AC & protection & spread effect, your effective HP goes way up => your tank live longer => deal more damage.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] May 11 2005 12:25 PM EDT

I would think that once the minion wearing the ToE dies then the other minions should no longer get that effect. The reason I think this is that the ToE doesn't cast a spell--rather it grants endurance. And if the ToE wearing minion dies so would the ToE effects. Does this make any sense? I'm prepared for some flaming my way.

LumpBot May 11 2005 1:53 PM EDT

Barron you are mistaken in fact, it's like any spell you cast like DM AMF and EC. The effects start at the begining and keep on going until you lose/win

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] May 11 2005 3:28 PM EDT

However Endurance in and of itself, is not a spell or a skill in this game. I'm playing devil's advocate here It's effect is granted by the minion wearing the tattoo, and if that minion dies, puff! :)

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] May 11 2005 3:33 PM EDT

Example: at the start of the fight when the spells are cast, is there a statement saying "Such and such a minion casts Endurance on blank". No. And it's not a skill that we can measure like Bloodlust or Archery. It really is a totally unique animal now.

mchaos May 11 2005 3:34 PM EDT

It is the TOE, not it's wearer, granting endurance to the minions around the wearer, so presumably the tattoo on the dead minion's corpse would still be 'active'.

(I know, people drawing paralells to real life usually annoys me too)

LumpBot May 11 2005 3:37 PM EDT

Yeah, I guess it's easy to keep it simple or else we'll have some goofy concept of melee and ranged not killing tattoos but Fireball burning them up =P

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] May 11 2005 3:38 PM EDT

the tattoo?

IT'S ALIVE!!!! EEEEAAAHHH!
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