So NW is linked to PR, are we better off? (in General)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] June 1 2005 3:39 PM EDT

I realize today starts a new non-change month. So pretty much what we have is what we will live with at least for another month. I am going to post my thoughts now about how I see the NW to PR change affecting CB, and hopefully at the end of this month, I will be able to either add to this one, or make a new one, after living with it for a full month, and see if the problems I am seeing, end up shaking out for the better.

So NW links to PR now, are we better off?

1) USD sales are down....YAY? All sales are down. Way down. 5 ELS's sold for less than 2mil each in open 4 day auction. For sale posts are being made and then slowly working its way down and off the active list without a post. The only posts generating large interest are ones where the item being sold is not CB equipment. Hopefully this will rebound.

2) Rentals are down....I spoke to a new player, who sent his Two Handed Flail off to be forged and wanted to rent a replacement weapon. He did, it crushed him of course. He rented one way to big for him. So he was out 5K (I loaned him my x10 +10 exec so the 5K he spent on an x54 +15 exec would not be wasted) I looked at the list of items out on rent, then noticed one pattern. Most of the really high end stuff is being rented by.....people in the Top 10. Imagine that! Only people like myself are really renting the good stuff, most are renting something to see what it would do, and they are renting as small as possible. Had another new player tell me he was going to take his new VB forge it a little bit, and then rent it out while he grew. I had to tell him that it was likely a waste of rental fees. He said I will undercut the market, and I said, well see what you can do but the rental fee you pay may preclude you dropping the price too much. I think he gave up after that. Hopefully this will rebound as well.

3) Forging is down.....The fact is, that forging is less and less useful as they have to charge more and more to make it worth their time and people are not seeing a benefit of saving 20% when the Blacksmith can do it in hours. Then you have people who want forgers and cannot find them. I know one new person, just got his VB, wants to switch from his katana to a VB and wants to use the katana to pay for the forging. With the katana value in the big tank (less than 100K for base), well you get the idea. So hopefully this will rebound.

4) Now a person cannot use a small character and equip high NW items and fight way over his head for big rewards. So are any of you any closer to catching Ranger, markxe, and me? I think the only ones who can catch Ranger now, are the same people that could before the change, its just even less likely that a new person will pop onto the radar, because unless they buy a big char and then put their big gear on it, they cannot pretend to compete with us. So the top is just as secure if not more so, after the change than before. You may not believe me, but I do hope that changes too.

5) New players are being told to start with single mages. Why? so they do not run into the NW problem and the massive confusion it causes new players. So we have a crop of new players and they are all starting single mages. The ones that do not start with single mages, are being frustrated by the confusion of NW to PR and I think they are giving up. Has the number of new players that make it past that first hurdle of what is it 100 or 1000 fights to trigger additional referal bonuses dropping? I would be surprised and HAPPY to hear that was not true. But I bet it is. They have to fight so far below their PR to win, they are losing money fighting with ammo. So thus the single mage. I think that is bad for diversity and fun, but hopefully it will change.

6) Helping New Players. Before the change you grab a store generated Two Handed Flail or maybe Halberd or Great Axe, hold it, wait until some new player comes into chat, check them out, send them a OK weapon that should help them. Now it wrecks them. Nothing but the blackmarket and a RARE weapon spawn generates base items. They all have NW even fresh from store. I do not see how giving a new player a Two Handed Flail would hurt the game, but it sure hurts their characters. So now its a lot of work just to give stuff away to help new players, you have to analyze and determine if it will kill them or not. I think I may just start giving away 10K instead of items, because at least then I can give them something useful. The best thing I have found so far is base lesser tats. Those seem to always fit, cheap from store, there is no market for them otherwise, so its a base tat or cash pretty much anymore. I think that is sad and I hope it changes.

So in the end, these are the problems I see with the NW to PR link. I am hoping more so than getting people to agree with me about these problems, those people who see the BENEFIT of this change will post. I want to see those benefits too!!!!!! I would love to hear that new player sign-ups and retention is actually up! I would love to hear forgers tell me no, its not true there is plenty of work, more than I can handle at 80% I would be happy to hear other campers say dude you must not be able to sell well, I am selling my gear NO PROBLEM and getting good prices for them. I would be VERY happy if a couple of new players posted saying they like the NW to PR link and why. And I would love to hear people say, the new NW to PR link now makes the top characters more catchable than ever. So please if you have opinions on how this change has helped CB, please post them here. I very much want to see the positive side of this change. So Chet this is a call to you, post the benefits for me, so that I might see them like you do :)

LumpBot June 1 2005 3:53 PM EDT

I have something to add to this.
It seems the main reason NW=PR was installed was to make player not want to use USD. Because if they don't want to by choice, then it won't happen.
I think this thought process is going to get rough in a few months when certain players are going to have more cash than they can use. Myself, Sefton, Cool Water, flipperkill, and many others will have to sell for USD because we will have no use what so ever for more NW.
I wish I could recomend a new way to limit USD without these bad side effects.

Todd June 1 2005 4:03 PM EDT

Is it perfect, fully tweaked and flawless? No.

But, it's a good idea, and will be tweaked as the need arises.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] June 1 2005 4:14 PM EDT

Seriously Todd, what you say may be true, but without any data other than your opinion, it is not very persuasive. That said if you care to elaborate on the benefits as you see them, I would love to hear them.

Maelstrom June 1 2005 4:38 PM EDT

You know what? I've just switched from using a 1.7mil NW compound bow, to a 100k NW elbow, and it made no difference at all to my PR! (And yes, I waited more than 5 minutes...) My PR is 130k above my MPR, so something has to be making up the difference.

I tried playing around with my items a bit. Of all my armour, my DBs have the highest NW, about 1mil, and when I unequip them, my PR only drops 14k. If the NW of all armour types is proportional, all of my armour should account for about 50k of my extra PR. What about the rest?

Of course it's my tattoo: when I unequip my level 200k ToE, my PR drops by 60k. This is a tattoo that I have raised completely on my own, and it should be right at my level. Should it add so much to my PR?

WeaponX June 1 2005 5:02 PM EDT

honestly with the way things are you have the top 5 not 10 because 6-10 can only beat 4 or so guys in the top 10. so you Sefton and Ranger are immune to the NW nerf in all practicallity seeing as how you can beat 7 of the top 10. this being said you guys can add all the NW you want without noticing real penalties and since your rewards are normal it will be nearly impossible for you to be caught. i'm not in favor nor was i ever for the NW to PR change for people like descent who like to camp and fight who put alot of cash into the gear they have. i personally the day of the change bought a char who's PR could hold my NW but that is kind of sad that i was forced to. i will never be able to raise a char from scratch and if i make a mistake i am simply out of luck because as my NW goes up any retraining could severely hurt me. i do not see any real + to this change because usd is still a factor for those in the top 10 who can add NW and escape penalty so if ranger had 500 usd to spend the game would be over he would win period.

Arorrr June 1 2005 6:12 PM EDT

It's a bad move all over. The PR shock by NW is just too high.

CoolWater June 1 2005 6:14 PM EDT

Maelstorm, weapon doesn't count towards PR up to certain extent. That explains your compound/elbow change.

maulaxe June 1 2005 6:29 PM EDT

also, is it possible that your PR go DOWN as you earn/train xp?

example - you have an oversized weapon, it adds to your PR.
your MPR starts going up, and your weapon allowance starts approaching the NW of your weapon... is it possible for your PR to go down? ...would the number of minions matter?
(an example of when exponential growth overtakes linear, or the inverse?)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 1 2005 6:30 PM EDT

The top ten aren't exempt from fighting down penalties when just fighting themselves.

The top ten are exempt from fighting down penalties from fighting anyone.

Now, they might get better rewards from fighting other top 10 folk, but they won't be penalised additionally for fighting down. Unlike the 11th place guy.

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] June 1 2005 6:34 PM EDT

I can't do anything with half my equipment. More and more people are just going naked. I guess you can still take a ToJ and put it on a low char, and you'll see wonders.

The point in camping is lost, we have high-ticket items selling for crap. Contests have lost their luster, rentals are pointless, auctions? HA! Might as well just give the auction fees straight to Jon and get it over with. Quite frankly I'm surprised Jon did this. This entire game up until now was based on capitalism, it makes the economy work as well as it does. I don't know a better way to squash capitalism then by doing as has been done here.

Well atleast we still have clan points and bonuses.

RAMPAGE June 1 2005 6:41 PM EDT

Well I know it is messing up my fight list.
I've had people near the top of my list drop to the bottom after they strip their character and fight rewards drop right off the chart.

Todd June 1 2005 6:54 PM EDT

Seriously Sefton. I think it's a good idea. Why? Because it is my opinion that all components that affect your "Power" , ie, your ability to pummel your opponents, should be factored into your "Power Rating".

NW of your items in simply one of them.

QBRanger June 1 2005 6:57 PM EDT

Very simple IMO:

The NW/PR linkage has crushed the economy. That is forging, rentals, blacksmithing, and sales (both cb2 and usd). People are not upping their items due to the less rewards they get as their PR goes up.

The idea in theory is good, very good. But there are much better ways to accomplish this.

First idea: Make it that armor/weapons only work to a certain level based on your MPR. That is, lets use elb as an example. For every 10k MPR you get to use x3 +3 of an elb. So someone with a MPR of 200k will be able to use, at max x60 +60 of an elb. The rest, or lets say if they equipped my elb would be extra, that is unused in battle.

Second idea: A bit simpler. Make it so you need a certain MPR to equip a certain NW level of items. In the elb example, make it that you need 10K MPR to equip 500k NW of an elb. Then at 300k MPR you can equip a 15 million NW elb. If the NW of the elb is over that, you cannot equip it. This would stop new characters from equipping overly large items. Not as nice as the first idea but likely easier on the programming side of things.

With the first idea, people can forge, upgrade, buy, sell items at will and can grow into them over time.

With the second idea, people have to wait to use their items. In this scenario a reverse Blacksmith will likely be needed so people can "downgrade" their items to fit them.

Just my 2 cents.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] June 1 2005 7:06 PM EDT

Well Todd, that is certainly a little better than your previous post, but still, I understand your reasoning, but am still looking for the benefits of that reasoning, as in why its a good idea. Not why you think its a good idea, but what it has done for CB to improve it, so I can think its a good idea too :)

I guess you are saying that now everyone's PR is represented by all factors that give them power, and that representation is a good thing? But, why not use score for that? I mean why must PR reflect your NW when there are other ways to reflect it, without, I hope, all of the bad things that are occuring.

However, I will concede that you have given what you consider to be a benefit of this change, and that benefit is:

everyone's PR accurately reflects their true power. So when you look a PR you have a true sense of the power of the person you are dealing with.

So I put that out to the community as well. Is it helpful (and thus a benefit) that you can immediately see how truly powerful a person is by their PR. I fight by score still (not sure if that is best or not) so I don't use that particular benefit much. Maybe lots of other people do?

And Todd I apologize in advance if I did not properly explain your reasoning as a benefit and welcome you to correct me.

Tim June 1 2005 7:21 PM EDT

I like ranger's first idea a lot more than his second.

I think its a good idea, but why don't we just lower the PR penalties across the board?

Chocolate Thunder June 1 2005 7:22 PM EDT

Maybe I'm missing something, Everyone is saying that Forging is crushed. Then why did it take me 3 days to find a forger for a big job?

Also, Sefton, your first point is entirely skewed. The ELS prices were low because of the VB. (The ELBs sold fine, the Corns sold fine, the DBs sold fine.) It had nothing to do with the PR/NW link.

QBJohnnywas June 1 2005 7:25 PM EDT

I agree with Chocolate on that one, the VB affected far more sales/prices than the NW/PR link. Has anyone managed to sell a katana for what they paid for it even since the VB made it's entrance?

Majestik Moose June 1 2005 7:29 PM EDT

repeating a bit, but I like to say something too :)
hmm.. people who aren't happier after the change:

- Campers and USD traders, get lower value for their stuff, and even if they get cash, they cannot really use it on anything.

- Forgers, Due to that the need of upping equipment was lowered, and the need of cash too.

- Renters, Since you can't up the items, you might as well spend the money you get, to get the rares instead of renting them.

-Re-starters (a category I'm in).. Have tons of cash/equipment without any visible possibility to use them.

- Strategists... Limiting is limiting, and even though this added a NW/PR balance issue, the numbers of strats possible decreased

- People who like to have a big weapon/armor, since "that's cool".
I managed to get a 41M BTh in the two months of CB1 I played, without camping too much, and without using USD.. In CB2, I wouldn't be able to put a 41M BTh on a char, without fighting with him for 5-6 months.

People who strike even at the changes:

- Newbies (They already has a many-a-month 80% newbie bonus, and with a decent killer strat, there is def. no need of big equipment, although they are reduced to only using low NW strats)

- Clan fighters. No change to that whatsoever

- People in top 10, who can kill most of the others in top 10
No reward changes

People who gains from the changes:

- People who like to have a high PR:
Much easier now

High PR low NW strats.. They get good rewards

Every change is a good change, since it is a change - people...
Well, this is a very major change to the structure of CB.

moser June 1 2005 7:47 PM EDT

It wouldn't be so bad if there was a reverse BS, even at a loss, as you could adjust your equipment post change (I can't say the change was a total suprise though).

The analogy that seems to fit is that a 16 year old recruit with mega-gear would never be able to use it as well as a 30 year old veteran of many battles, the problem is it came after we were used to and had adapted to a PR based system. It never made sense to me that pumping items and tats was better than exp but I quickly adapted and was able to beat a top character while only at 1/3 or so if his MPR. I didn't think that was right but it was they way it was.

Everything should be based on MPR. Mages should only be able to use a +10 CoI to its full potential if they are strong enough and accordingly all other equipment/char combinations. (My MgS is named an Iron Will from my memory of the LOTR example of needing earned skill to use an item to its full potential)

But we should have had an ability to reverse BS items as it was a major game change.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] June 1 2005 8:16 PM EDT

Chocolate Thunder:
"Maybe I'm missing something, Everyone is saying that Forging is crushed. Then why did it take me 3 days to find a forger for a big job?"

I think that is why people are saying it is crushed because it should not take 3 days to find a person willing to do a big job.

"Also, Sefton, your first point is entirely skewed. The ELS prices were low because of the VB. (The ELBs sold fine, the Corns sold fine, the DBs sold fine.) It had nothing to do with the PR/NW link."

I disagree, elbows always do well because IF you have to put NW into something put it into that which can finish the fight fastest. I can say elbows finish a fight faster than anything. Corn's do well because everyone wants to bump their enchantments now that Corn's operate differently, after renting a +3 and +5 Corn I can say they most likely wasted their $$$. And DB's got a bump recently, and again IF you are going to put NW into something, DB's and elbow are probably the best places. Not to say VB's did not contribute, and they certainly caused the demise of the recently resurrected katanas, but the melee weapon is now the last item people should add NW too, since at least in my case, it doesn't get used very often.

Besides I used the ELS's as one example, I can point to many in forum's and auctions that go to further the point of wrecking the price of items in this economy, just the ELS was a glaring easy example.

Regardless of ALL of that however, the point of this post was to present what I thought were the problems, and then ask those that think the NW to PR link was a good thing to post why it is. Whether you think my problems are problems or not, disproving them does not make the change a good thing by default, simply makes it less of a bad thing. So if it is a good thing, please, please, please tell me why. Todd's because now PR accurately reflects power does nothing to help convince me the change was good.

Tim June 1 2005 8:57 PM EDT

I'm not going to say this change was good for the game. But It did balance the game. Adding NW to a character has always added directly to power, so why not count it? This change was a long time coming. Now I think it needs to be tweaked and changed, but most major changes have to be tweaked.

This is not Jonathan's first unpopular change and I'm sure it won't be his last. I think Jonathan makes changes based more so on balance than what will make the players happy all the time.

Hopefully this will not cause too many people to quit. I just wish there was a way we could address the balance issue of NW without causing so much damage to the occupations built around the game(forge, campers, ect).

btw I'm a new player and im not sure if this will help me late in the game but I think it has helped me now as the only item of value I use is a fire familiar. Now in theory since i can fight high above my PR I should get higher rewards then those with High NW/PR that cannot fight that much higher scores. I think... so yea I'll catch up like that i guess.

Arorrr June 1 2005 10:06 PM EDT

The would says the NW/PR balance make the game worse off. It takes a lot of strategy out of the equation.

Like how many newbie will buy basic equipment and start out as fighter (like most of us did before the change) and not doing the naked mage???

Relic June 1 2005 11:31 PM EDT

I fully agree with everything you said Sefton.

I have stopped forging recently because no one is willing to spend 80%, most people want it for 70 and sometimes less. I cannot compete with the newbie forgers who get an 80% bonus even with a 200k MPR as my forger.

Whether the change was a good thing or bad that is entirely subjective and can be debated forever, however I think the economy as a whole is in a recession because of the recent changes. Just my take on things.

Ascent June 2 2005 12:41 AM EDT

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea behind the changes... or maybe even the actual implementation (linking NW to PR, and more importantly, nerfing rewards if your NW<->PR link is too wacky for your level)... When Jon said he was linking NW to PR, I didn't realize that meant if you had good stuff, your rewards would become null and void if the system didn't think you had earned it. That may well have been spelled out somewhere, but I sure missed it. (that's not saying much though)

I think what I disagree with is the ratios.... they're way too restrictive... and, probably not unlike many people, I've lost the will to play CB. Camping's no fun anymore (putting all those rares into auction really added insult to injury, I think), forging's no fun.... heck, spending BA is no fun, with the exception of the wacky fight rewards. I rode with it with 80% of my items got nerfed/hosed (see: COBF, TSA and Beleg's) or changed to a straight non-forgable, nw = modifier, but then the higher the nw, the more hosed you are.... even through all that, my rewards really haven't changed that much. I just don't have motivation to play anymore. It's no fun to get good stuff, it's no fun to sell good stuff, it's no fun to fight and play, really. It's a shame, I was really starting to get into the flow of CB2 and had started really working on my character after not really getting into it initially. I think we need to rollback to May 1 and start over with some different changes.

I know that there are specific goal Jon is trying to achieve, but I really think he missed it this time. I think he's killing the desire of people to play the game with his PR<->NW connection... killing people's desire = killing the game.

Change is good... and the only constant is change... but I think the last round need some serious adjustment. There have got to be some better solutions to the problems at hand. At present, seems like May 2005 was the change month that killed CB.

MudBug The Redeemer June 2 2005 1:17 AM EDT

Maybe I'm out of line, but it seems that in relation to the nw nerf, you should be able to untrain at a lesser exp hit. I'm searching to change my strat, and in the untraining fee I've all but destroyed my char. Maybe i'm talking to a wall here, but oh well. won't be the first time.

Just a thought......


Mags June 2 2005 2:39 AM EDT

Hi, my name's Brock Samson, and I'm a single tank. Nice to meet you.

I prey on teams with no magic damage. Because I'm a single minion, I can get a much higher dexterity and evasion through equipment and UC than would otherwise be possible and win because I hit multi-minion and non-UC characters much more often and easily than they hit me.

The teams who beat me now are primarily the ones that have extremely large Elbow's. The to_hit on these is just too high, and the damage creams me. High NW weapons still rule, particularly on characters which have only 1T and several others so they can devote their entire allowance to the one tank and still have the other chars be fully effective.

Duke June 2 2005 3:47 AM EDT

Forging down it took me 3 day to find a forger all were booked for many day.

QBJohnnywas June 2 2005 4:37 AM EDT

Seft, you make some valid points as ever. But from a purely fighting point of view the changes to NW/PR have made absolutely no difference to my game. OK so sales are down, but that means prices are down. I may not be able to equip my char with massive amounts of gear now but it's forcing me to take a longer term view of my strategy, and I can afford the odd item now that will help without resorting to RL money. I don't think CB has ever been a game for an instant hit, and that hasn't changed. I think too many players want to be the best player too quickly, but it takes time to develop and if the game loses players who aren't prepared to do that then I'm not sure it's a bad thing.

If you are really concerned about new players and CB, and I believe from this post and others you have made that you are, then surely you owe it to them to make the most of these changes - we all do - and adapt to them and make the most of them. If the more experienced players can do that and show that the game works then we can pass that down to the newbies and help develop the game's future. If we don't do that it really doesn't matter what Jon does with his changes - without us onside the game will slide slowly downhill.

As George Benson, that famous CB player, once said:

' I believe that newbies are our future,
Teach them well and let them lead the way ...'

Cheesy, moi? Nah....=)

Undertow June 2 2005 4:56 AM EDT

Wait... so you all put too much NW into your items... and now it's biting your butt?

Oh well.

I started a character, and I fought, and I spent the money I got on BA for clan fighting. That's Undertow. And this change helps him, his rewards are way up, because now all these NW heavy characters are easy pickings for good rewards.

As for Death, she's doing even better. Giving her a tat to jump her ahead a little, then some base alright equipment as kept her right where she's supposed to be on the curve.

Yes, I'm doing much better now since this change, I love it.

New players can't use a two handed flail? Where's the problem? Did Jon ever say he WANTED anyone sending items to new players? Let them fight, grab a rapier, and they'll do just fine as a tank. your just putting too much stock in them needing GOOD equipment. You can make it pretty far without any equipment OR a DD spell. Just fight the first couple of days, and buy a low weapon, you'll do fine. I mean, you didn't think Jon put all those extra weapons in there as a joke did you?

Undertow June 2 2005 4:58 AM EDT

oh, wait, sorry, not agreeing on a point of yours, but making one of my own.

This does render any item that doesn't give a bonus completely obsolete. A little better now that base doesn't give PR, but why have anything from an Adam to leather to steel brigs to DCMs to... well anything that doesn't up your stats, in the game at all? At least a low level weapon you can still use, it falls under that little allowance.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 2 2005 5:04 AM EDT

I'm probably doing a bad thing on my main and who knows, I'll probably change in this month but, I've been pumping the AC on my wall (I'm gonna hit 200AC soon, not too bad without a shield), because I want the highest AC I can get and damn the increased PR!

But I mentioned a couple of times before this change went live and it still holds true.

It's no longer worth investing money in anything but the top items.

ELB, DB, Whatever melee weapon you use and whatever armour. There's absolutly no point upping any lesser items. You'll be much better off saving your cash to buy the top end item for the slot you're looking at.

Personally, I don't see why items upgrade costs and therefore PR per point has to be different at all. Make item choices based on what the items does, not how much use you can squeeze out of how little PR.

Give Adams the same Upgrade cost as all other body armour. Make the choice bewteen the armours properties, (for example) Adams have a bigger base but give high stat penalties, or MCM's don't have stat penalties, but don't give as much AC, etc, etc...

What about all the lower armours? Who need them. Who is ever going to use any of them now?

Do we need so many weapoms and armours that are never going to be used?

Undertow June 2 2005 5:31 AM EDT

Oh, and anyone having problems... have you tried just doing a little striptease and buying max ba to get your mpr closer to where it should be?

I don't know if that doesn't work, or just haven't been thought of or what, but why do you think Jon upped the limit on purchasing BA? If your having problems with high nw, and you have NO IDEA where to put your money, I'll paint a great big target on the "buy ba" link.

QBJohnnywas June 2 2005 5:33 AM EDT

Shhh Undertow, don't tell everyone.....or they'll all be doing it....

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 2 2005 7:38 AM EDT

Two-Handed Flail
Great Axe
Lochaber Axe
Beaked Axe
Morning Star
Lucerne Hammer
Bastard Sword
Battle Axe
Long Sword
Broad Sword
War Hammer
Main Gauche

(Taken striaght from the item meta stats page)

Bar a whip on a starting charcter (and that depends if the new guy doesn't become a supporter...) who's gonna use any of these weapons?

Who's ever used a Tulwar? Long Sword?

Leaving THF and Kat in the list is iffy, but if you can get your hands on a VB, there is no reason to use them.

Why so many weapons? So new comers can work thier way up, buying the next biggest weapon as they can afford them? They would be better just saving up for a day and picking up a THF/Kat that people can't sell...

Or just play a mage until you get enough money to buy your own VB or above...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 2 2005 8:12 AM EDT

Here's an idea, reverse the upgrade costs.

Make the items with the smallest base the cheapest to upgrade.

People then have the choice of getting a large base item at base to use, upping only when they can afford it, or getting a low base item, which shouldn't effect thier PR too much, and pumping it to bring it into line with the large base items (which will increase their PR accordingly).

WeaponX June 2 2005 8:18 AM EDT

1 phrase GL "lol" you do realize the base must mean lower upgrade costs otherwise elbs would mean nothing. jon makes unpopular changes but he will 100% never do that the outrage would be to powerful

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 2 2005 8:27 AM EDT


Lets look at armour. (all for example) You have an Adam at base of 40. You cuold wear a HLA, and pay 500K to bring it up to 6+34 to make it 40. Does the same thing as the Adam (ignoreing magic/phys differencies) but the HLA has increased your PR by 500K's worth of NW.

Now to make using the HLA viable, if the upgrade costs were such that putting another 500K into the HLA gave +20, while only +5 to the adam, there would be reason to use both...

WeaponX June 2 2005 8:35 AM EDT

that would be why leather is newbie equipment it is not supposed to be viable at high levels thats what an MCM is for.

Starseed^Lure June 2 2005 10:30 AM EDT

I like starting new characters - on CB1 I had many teams over 100k pr and 2 over 200k. I like new teams and I think it's silly that in CB2 I can't transfer my good items over to my new team. In fact, it is hard to justify EVER starting a new character now. This game became a whole lot less fun for me because now when I use an alternate char with my big morgul my rewards have been killed disproportionately.

Now the question is "should they be be nerfed to such a degree?" Suppose 2 people spend the same amount of BA over a given amount of time. Everything else being the same, dude '1' uses one char and dude '2' starts 3 and spends equal ba on each. In the person who has one char, will probably be better off. Forging for dude '1' will obviously be better, and unless dude '2' made some seriously genius decisions on what gear he bought and upgraded (or used USD), he's probably still getting better rewards.

I don't get it, I haven't since day one. If changes were made to allow me to play the way I like playing, that is with many chars and many strats, I would be okay. But as of now, moving my Morgul hammer around to any other char, kills it. I would like to see the rewards with fighting with big weapons on small characters become somewhat back closer to proportional. No one can say that the benefit of equipping my morgul hammer on my 30k ET group is worth 70k PR. It simply cannot be argued.

BooDiggens June 2 2005 10:58 AM EDT

I doubt Jon kids are old enough to have said this yet, so I'll beat them to the punch.

"Can I have a bigger (NW) allowance?"

QBsutekh137 June 2 2005 12:42 PM EDT

GL, you just hit on why I dislike rares so much, even now.

There is NO downside to rares, and that's why they are rare. I agree that cheap weapons should have some advantage...something that could work in a niche strat or to fit with a certain character. But at this point they are basically just junk. Junk that comes in a multitude of flavors. I don't really see the point of it either.

I still think rares should be cheaper in the is nice to have "end game" weapons/armors as a sort of initiation in the game...but some of the other weapons shouldn't be so utterly useless through the lower/intermediate stages.

As far as NW/PR linkage, the concept still makes sense, as Todd says. Power is power, no matter where it comes from.

However, and this is totally a Top Twenty perspective, I feel that offense is running away with the game here. Investing in armor goes all toward PR with limited gains (especially with Vorpal Blades out there halving things). The Top Three can manage kills in 2-3 rounds, even against large ToEs and large ACs. Teams with big ACs are seeing their scores go far below their total PR. Currently, the only defensive item that is worth investing in are a pair of DBs. We need more viable defensive choices, at least in the top 25 or so.

Defense has always been second-hand on CB. Toward the "end" of CB1, it made a resurgence as people jacked up to mid-300s in AC, but we aren't there yet. And even for those who are getting up there, the VB cuts that in half. ToEs have been nerfed to the point where ToA/ELB teams are hitting FAR above the ceiling with each shot, rendering the ToE all but useless vs the ToA.

I would just like to see defensive play make at least a little bit of a comeback. Maybe more power shields? It won't be long before the MgS is useless against big mages, and Jon has flat-out stated that it was never meant to keep pace as mages grow in power. Additionally, the MgS is already useless against tanks. Maybe something else that keeps pace better? Especially in ranged combat vs. these ToA monsters?

Well, I am definitely just blathering now. Overall I think NW/PR linkage is a good idea, and we will have to see how this non-change month plays out.

[MG]Mecca-Devilbot [Clan of One] June 2 2005 12:57 PM EDT

As to the question of the use of base items, i asked jon why my short bow was so freaking expensive to upgrade compared to CB1. He said " It's a newbie items, what do you expect". Well, i kinda expected the same thing as CB1, the x was expensive, but the + was cheaper then dirt. which actually could make it useful. (if you don't think that a x18 +500 short bow can be good, your thinking crazy)

To me that's the difference between high end and low end items. The high end items have much lower x costs, and slightly lower + costs. The really base items (daggers, short bows) have high to really-high x costs, and ultra low + costs.
High End - "You hit hard, You hit always"
Low End - "You may not hit hard, but you'll hit alot"

Wasp [Demon Forging] June 2 2005 1:01 PM EDT

NW-PR link was a truly bad idea. I see no benefits in it what so ever. Sefton hit the nail on the head with his first comments. This silly idea to stop USD in the market should stop. There will be more USD in the market in the long run. What happens when the big people have gallons of money lying around? I'll tell you what, they'll sell it to developing characters who wouldn't mind a bit of money. This is gonna slowly degrade the whole economy soon. It's gonna end up like CB1 is now. People should be able to up their gear as much as they want without any penalties.

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] June 2 2005 1:08 PM EDT

Why doesn't the armor allowance go WAY up, and the weapon allowance go down a bit?

Huge armor doesn't usually affect someones core ability to win or lose combat. However a big weapon does. I don't have any idea why these basic concepts weren't built into the PW/NW thing from the beginning.

Because of the complexity of making a item give you PR just for equipping it, each item should have its own personal PR assigned to it. If I have a base ELB and a base ELS equipped, my pr should go up much more then if I had equipped a base THF and Compound. It's that simple.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] June 2 2005 1:26 PM EDT

My personal experience is this;
I run a single mage, not many avenues for adding NW but I managed to get some DB. After upping them bit and equipping for a while I came to the conclusion that to make any meaningful difference to my fights versus the tanks I face I would have to up them a lot more. Given a lot of my targets are mages it doesn't seem worth the reduced rewards to bother wearing them.

QBsutekh137 June 2 2005 1:52 PM EDT

Mecca, your comment on x and + is grossly over-simplified. Yes, short bows are cheap on pth, but to say all lower items are cheaper on + while larger items are cheaper on x is just not the case. Compare an exec to a BoNE. BoNE is cheaper on both x and + to upgrade, even though it is a "bigger" item.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 2 2005 2:08 PM EDT

"that would be why leather is newbie equipment"

And Tulwars and Long swords and and...

No newbie needs to use leather armour. There are top teams that don't use it. There are top teams that don't use MCM's.

A newbie equipping leather armour will up their PR for what a ~1.26% physical damage reduction? An increased PR that will see them fight harder opponents for less. Jumping even 50 PR as a starting character is massive!

It's counter productive to use these items. More so on newbie teams.

As for the sheer amount of dross wepaons, why not just scrap most of the and free up some space... Do we really need 20+ weapons NO ONE will ever use?

Just give me one good reason to use a Tulwar.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] June 2 2005 2:33 PM EDT

Well Chet I was waiting with baited breath for your response, and now that I have it I want to make sure I understand it. You are saying what Todd said, that PR is now accurately reflecting the actual power of the character, and this is the only benefit you get from this? That's it? You mean to tell me that the only good thing to come of this change is that PR accurately reflects the power of the user, and in your opinion this out weighs and is thus a greater and good thing than 1) A massive decrease in sales 2) a massive decrease in rentals 3) A solid decrease in forging 4) No one being any closer (and actually father away) from catching the top players 5) New players are being told to start single mages, and 6) you cannot actually help new players much more than saying fire everybody and start a single mage.

WOW! So all those bad things happen just so that PR accurately reflects the power of the character. If that is honestly and truly the only benefit of the change, then this is truly the worst change I have ever seen implimented in all my certainly shorter than you days on CB. Basically people quit, the economy fails, and new players are confused out of their minds and are told to start one single bland way, all so that one number shows the power of the individual instead of using PR and score as a combined method for determining power. WOW!

Stunned into silence

[Banned]Monty June 2 2005 2:40 PM EDT

4 words

I don't Like it

maulaxe June 2 2005 2:45 PM EDT

i think that what we need are mini-versions of all the high end equipment.
we could have some better shields at lower levels to encourage one handed weapon and sling use
we need something like a morg, but for smaller people - that only returns a tiny amount... and has a much lower base damage.

I always thought that it was silly to only have "special" abilities in only the extremely high end stuff, it would make things much more fun to have 'baby' versions of these available. we have lesser tattoos... why not things like lesser DBs, or lesser Morgs? (with better names of course)

ps: lol @ BooDiggity

[EG] Almuric June 2 2005 3:03 PM EDT

Sefton, Jon doesn't make changes to please any one person. He makes changes that do either or both of these two things: Add something new and create balance. That's it. There will always be a few people who oppose any one particular change.

This change was necessary. I completely agree with it. It's completely unfair to be able to equip huge weapons and armor and inflate your score and get mega-rewards. You should get your rewards the old-fashioned way - fighting a lot and having a good strategy. (And this is coming from somebody who has spent US$ on the game.)

You're saying that this change makes it impossible for people to catch up. I beg to differ. Here's how rewards are calculated: Your PR is compared to the opponent's Score. If your PR is lower than your opponent's Score, you get increased awards. If your PR is higher, i.e. you're fighting lower than you should be, your rewards are lower. Gyaxx and Apocalypse are getting reduced rewards right now. They don't get the you're-fighting-way-too-low extra penalty since they're in the top 10, but they're not getting as much in the way of XP and $ as someone who's fighting people with score higher than their PR.

So anyone can catch them. All you have to do is fight more than them and have a good strategy. That's it. It may take you months, but if you fight enough you'll catch them.

As to the top people having money and no way to spend it: buy BA. Jon increased the amount you can buy and from my experience there isn't much left in a day's $ gain after buying all the BA I can. Maybe it's just me and I'm spending too much on arrows.

QBRanger June 2 2005 3:30 PM EDT

Personally I dont know if my rewards are lower than others:

Here are the last 15 battles I have fought with the rewards:
All are with 14.5% clan bonus and I have a 3 minion team.

You are awarded $259 and your Minions receive 38 exp each.
You are awarded $316 and your Minions receive 46 exp each.
You are awarded $190 and your Minions receive 47 exp each.
You are awarded $184 and your Minions receive 37 exp each.
You are awarded $220 and your Minions receive 42 exp each.
You are awarded $244 and your Minions receive 34 exp each.
You are awarded $210 and your Minions receive 48 exp each.
You are awarded $259 and your Minions receive 55 exp each.
You are awarded $141 and your Minions receive 45 exp each.
You are awarded $221 and your Minions receive 47 exp each.
You are awarded $123 and your Minions receive 32 exp each.
You are awarded $282 and your Minions receive 36 exp each.
You are awarded $251 and your Minions receive 29 exp each.
You are awarded $180 and your Minions receive 37 exp each.
You are awarded $153 and your Minions receive 36 exp each.

Average reward is $215 and 40.6 exp x 3 is 122 total xp. This is with a 14.5% clan bonus so the base is $188 and 107 total xp.

How does this compare to others in the top 50 or so? Is this much less than others in this range?

Special J June 2 2005 3:40 PM EDT

Your money is higher Ranger, but your XP total reward is much lower than my average.

Mr Bones June 2 2005 3:42 PM EDT

Single Mage (Chicken Farm) Last 15 Fights

You are awarded $271 and your Minions receive 88 exp each.
You are awarded $241 and your Minions receive 88 exp each.
You are awarded $217 and your Minions receive 85 exp each.
You are awarded $109 and your Minions receive 122 exp each.
You are awarded $165 and your Minions receive 85 exp each.
You are awarded $150 and your Minions receive 110 exp each.
You are awarded $161 and your Minions receive 96 exp each.
You are awarded $268 and your Minions receive 130 exp each.
You are awarded $238 and your Minions receive 91 exp each.
You are awarded $214 and your Minions receive 92 exp each.
You are awarded $178 and your Minions receive 104 exp each.
You are awarded $118 and your Minions receive 85 exp each
You are awarded $214 and your Minions receive 79 exp each.
You are awarded $245 and your Minions receive 81 exp each.

QBsutekh137 June 2 2005 3:55 PM EDT

Sefton, the reason I did not add any other "upside" to my post is because your list of "downside" items does not matter to me.

I don't care about the economy. I think camping is retarded, I am glad there is less USD in the game now (if that is even 100% true), and I get tired of 3/4ths of New Threads being FS/WTB. If I wanted my free-time world to be based on the buying and selling or worthless items, I would spend my leisure time knocking about the local pawn shop or being mesmerized by eBay (which I am not).

Let's look at another role-playing game. A friend of mine is deeply immersed in World of Warcraft. I asked him about economy and items in that game. First off, you can't transfer items. Period. I don't believe you can even sell a character other than by transferring ownership of an entire account (anyone in the know, feel free to correct me if I speak in error). An item is "branded" to you when you equip it. You can unequip and keep it in your own inventory, but you can't drop it or transfer it to someone else. All you can do is destroy it. Wild, huh? As far as I can tell, WoW is fairly popular. People are paying to play this game (and it ain't just for the cool graphics).

I do happen to agree with your assessment of top-level entrenchment. I think the Top Ten sanctuary is sort of bogus right now, and I don't see how anyone could catch up. Furthermore, if they did catch up, I fully expect them to look exactly like the Top Three right now, or a slight variation therefrom. I think that's lame. I think ToA/NW combos are still too powerful, especially when able to hideout at the top of the score and PR lists. However, I have no solution. Things will always be different at the top, and I see no way around that. I fully anticipate that if he continues to inject some USD here and there and keep up battles, almuric will join the top, and the Top Four will all be ToA/ELB/NW teams.

I think we have to agree to disagree. You think camping, trading, and mercantiling are a crucial part of the game. I think they are meaningless. I would have just as much fun playing CB if it were based on a classic"store" motif where the store and auctions were the only games in town, and there were no such thing as "rares".

In short, I see no need to defend the NW/PR linkage. The logical notion behind it (power is as power does) is enough for me to say it is a Good Thing (in my opinion, of course).

As for my "more time in CB", you are leaps and bounds ahead of me in tactics and well-rounded BA usage. I think your points are very valid and very consistent for someone who sees value in the things that you do. In essence, we aren't disagreeing -- we just care about wildly differing aspects of the game.

QBsutekh137 June 2 2005 4:01 PM EDT

mrwuss, you are a single minion. Ranger is a trio (or sometimes foursome). His rewards look very decent to me, which is why I think Sefton's point about the top-level entrenchment is a very, very good one.

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] June 2 2005 4:24 PM EDT

You make some valid point Chet, but remember this is not World of Warcraft, this game is based entirely on textual representations of weapons and numbers instead of fancy magic spells.

In world of warcraft, part of the fun is in being able to play it, and see the graphics, and interact with other people while enjoying the world it is in.

Carnage Blender has no 3D world, we do however have a community that we can interact with in chat, and through this forum.

Playing CB equates to hitting fight over and over again on many different characters. Sometimes you need to adjust who you fight so you can win more money to spend on upgrading your weapons. The changes Jon made would be perfectly okay with me and many others if he is planning on opening other avenues of interest for this game.

Rare equipment, the store and even having a economy based on supply and demand makes this game intriguing because if you happen to enter the store and get a expensive item you can either use it to make your character stronger, or sell it to buy other gear for your character or upgrade your existing equipment. That is no longer true to any degree that it was formerly.

The effect of the NW/PR link is most evident in the supply and demand of things. Now that we cannot have whatever equipment we want, our demand will be determined for us. That equates to removing an entire aspect of this game that is, for many of us, very intriguing. Because as we have seen, it is very possible for someone to have very expensive equipment and still lose.

The NW/PR link was only completely necessary because of a HANDFUL of people had equipment way above and beyond the means of many many others which gave them a ungodly advantage. They gained this either through USD or by camping and getting lucky.

Why not just change the weapon and armor allowance so that it reflects if someone has 10 mil worth of equipment on them. But if they are only 100k MPR and they strap on 1 or 2 mil worth gear, it won't affect their PR at all.

QBsutekh137 June 2 2005 4:47 PM EDT

What you find intriguing has also been the one thing that has almost made me quit on more occasions than I can count.

Being beat up by someone just because they have higher NW is EXTREMELY frustrating. I have always been a PR guy. I was that way on CB1, and was that way at the start of CB2. By the time I cracked the top ten in score, I realized my never-miss-a-BA obsession was useless once a few folks who put nominal amounts of USD or CB1 cash into the game were able to utterly destroy me. That's the flip-side of what we have now.

Remember when tattoos were integrated into PR? I haven't heard anyone complainging about that in quite some time. In fact, turning off tattoo rentals and reducing their ability to swap around was met with praise almost universally. Why? It destroyed tattoo rentals, tattoo trades, and tattoo supply/demand. Do you think that was a mistake?

Why are items any different than tattoos?

[EG] Almuric June 2 2005 5:02 PM EDT

You are awarded $306 and your Minions receive 46 exp each. Clan bonus: 11.6%.
You are awarded $272 and your Minions receive 57 exp each.
You are awarded $154 and your Minions receive 39 exp each.
You are awarded $170 and your Minions receive 54 exp each.
You are awarded $257 and your Minions receive 37 exp each.
You are awarded $163 and your Minions receive 32 exp each.
You are awarded $154 and your Minions receive 41 exp each.
You are awarded $218 and your Minions receive 36 exp each.
You are awarded $207 and your Minions receive 32 exp each.
You are awarded $204 and your Minions receive 44 exp each.
You are awarded $163 and your Minions receive 30 exp each.
You are awarded $272 and your Minions receive 51 exp each.
You are awarded $260 and your Minions receive 42 exp each.
You are awarded $193 and your Minions receive 53 exp each.
You are awarded $123 and your Minions receive 51 exp each.

43 XP and $208 on average. I would have thought it was more. I guess I was wrong. I've been operating under a false assumption. I'll have to re-evaluate what I'm doing. If I can't catch up... treading water doesn't really appeal to me.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] June 2 2005 5:13 PM EDT

Thank you Chet, that was more of what I was looking for/expecting. Now tell me honestly, in your opinion, do you think the majority of CB think like your position or like my position. As in, paraphrased and perhaps butchered, that the only fun and worthwhile thing to do on CB is to fight and play with strat. Where my position is, all the possible things CB allows you to do can and should be fun.

"Sefton, the reason I did not add any other "upside" to my post is because your list of "downside" items does not matter to me. I don't care about the economy. I think camping is retarded, I am glad there is less USD in the game now (if that is even 100% true), and I get tired of 3/4ths of New Threads being FS/WTB."

If your true goal is to get rid of rares, stop camping, stop having any reason to spend earned money on anything but BA, then I think furthering the NW to PR link was a thin shield of your true goal (which you are closer than ever to accomplishing) And I think that if people knew that was truly your goal and desire, that even less people would have agreed with the change, BEFORE it happened. Heck I bet even Todd would reconsider his agreement of it, if he thought that having no rares was the end result you were shooting for.

So in that end, your posting was stratgeically masteful. You got a lot of people behind an idea that in end goes to furthering what you truly want, without them realizing it.

I know, I know, you say but no that's not it, I just wanted PR to reflect power and stop all these low PR chars from rocking with big equipment. Please, if economy, camping, and FS/WTB means nothing to you how does not having PR accurately reflect power of individual matter? Or stopping someone from equipping high end gear on a low PR char? I think "You think camping, trading, and mercantiling are a crucial part of the game. I think they are meaningless. I would have just as much fun playing CB if it were based on a classic"store" motif where the store and auctions were the only games in town, and there were no such thing as "rares"." was what you were truly after.

And as you can see the value of rares is falling so fast they are catching up to the non-rares (thats about the same as no rares) You can only camp and sell the gear for USD (unless you are a top 10 char) so thats close to "meaningless". The overall economy is getting close to meaningless too :) So you may say you just wanted the change, but I say you wanted CB to be all about fighting and you are getting what you wanted.

Another masterful strategic posting manuever you use is to say gee you are right, I think the top is uncatchable too. You then fail to mention, since I do care about THAT, perhaps something should be done. To me it is well implied, but I will point it out to any who might have missed the implication.

So basically you would like nothing done to the current change of NW to PR link, except to make it more restrictive so that even more so than today, the only thing you can do on CB is fight. So before everyone jumps on that band wagon, I want people to realize where you point of view comes from, and I can end with a quote from your post, to make it my masteful strategic posting manuever,

"You think camping, trading, and mercantiling are a crucial part of the game. I think they are meaningless. I would have just as much fun playing CB if it were based on a classic"store" motif where the store and auctions were the only games in town, and there were no such thing as "rares"

So if that is where you want CB to head, hitch your wagon to Chet's because thats where he is taking you :)

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] June 2 2005 5:28 PM EDT

Actually, I would agree with Chet's point of view if, and only if, Jon is taking away one avenue of playability from this game and opening other avenues of playability for this game. If he is simply taking this method of playing away simply because of some people whining about it, I find that rather uninspired.

This game is about fighting, strategy and winning, but when I look over to the left and see items on the menu that seem to indicate there are other things you can do in this game, it makes me wonder.

Arorrr June 2 2005 5:46 PM EDT

"I don't care about the economy. I think camping is retarded, I am glad there is less USD in the game now (if that is even 100% true), and I get tired of 3/4ths of New Threads being FS/WTB."


BTW, is Chet Spydah/Todd in CB1 or someone else? I'm just wondering.

QBsutekh137 June 2 2005 5:51 PM EDT

Chet = Sutekh, or were you being sarcastic? *smile*

Sefton, you lost me as soon as you said "your true goal" as if I have some sort of magical time over time and space, or that even tougher target, Jonathan. I'll write more later, but the bottom line is this: none of this has been my doing. It was an idea (not even an original one), and there was no hiding, innuendo, or any such machinations going on.

I have always hated rares.
I have always hated camping.
I have always hated the use of USD (even though I did it myself)
I have always hated clans.

There iw no man behind the curtain. Just a pudgy guy who plays around on computers too much.

Arorrr June 2 2005 6:00 PM EDT


now I understand why Jon always has such witty replies for Chet...



QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] June 2 2005 6:08 PM EDT

Yah Chet and I knew that, but did anyone else? You say you have no control over things, but then you say you have no influence what so ever? That your opinion is not weighed more heavily than mine or Dandular's? I think that is incorrect. I think you do have some influence, I think your championing of the change, helped usher it in. I can be wrong in this of course, but I honestly think if you had weighed in as heavily on the NO don't do it side as you did on the YAH great idea (wish I had thought of it wink) side, it would have been less likely to have been made. Again I could be wrong, but let me just sort of go over the history of just some of the changes on CB2 so far. You were never a fan of tattoos, but really wanted the flexibility of changing tattoo's easily. Tattoo's get added to PR and the tattoo artist is made. Then, you thought it unfair my character (or ones like me) could beat yours, and NW gets added to PR. You think (and I must say I agreed with you there) that CoBF's were way over powered and now no CoBFs. Words are easy for me, words are easy to type and say, but actions, they are immutable, they occur or don't. And well looking back over the history of changes here on CB2, its either EXTREMELY coincedental that most of the things you championed occured OR you have some influence, which do you think it is?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 2 2005 7:16 PM EDT


And still no one can give me a reason to use a Tulwar?


spydah June 2 2005 7:20 PM EDT

Interesting points all around, and I'll just ignore them all and say I like the change because 'it makes sense'.

Anyway, the interesting part is that my rewards are basically the exact same as Rangers with a few more 50s thrown in. ThatÂ’s with a low 12% bonus, and I am not in the top ten at the time of the fights (I occasionally sneak in there).

Eh, I dislike camping, USD, and the rares concept as well, it's all bunk, but that is the game. Do I mind campers being 'nerfed' (ya right) not so much, no. I tell you what, you send me any EQ you feel is hurting you, I'll use it no matter the pr increase/fight reward change. It matters little in the long run anyway.

"Every change is a good change, since it is a change - people."
I forget who typed that, but yer dumb, all change is not good, period. This is very easily verifiable by putting a hole in your head with any particular tube of steel handy. Oops, did I go a bit extreme there? :p

Oh fine, I'll comment a little on points here.

I have not noticed a drop in Forging, I don't exactly live in the forge forum mind you, but everything I want forged has been forged, including DBs.

I see absolutely no reason a new players should have a 2HF, or even a Tulwar, grab a Rapier and keel someone.

I am sure no one actually thought anyone would catch someone who not only uses basically all BA, but uses USD as well, that was just funny.



QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] June 2 2005 7:42 PM EDT

spydah, can you tell me the difference between "it makes sense" and "Every change is a good change, since it is a change" please? Seem about the same in weight of arguement to me. Both are equally inane in my opinion.

"I see absolutely no reason a new players should have a 2HF, or even a Tulwar, grab a Rapier and keel someone."

So when you started out you never had help by gift of gear? Perhaps you started early enough there was no one to give gifts, I cannot say. I will say when I started CB1 I was helped by Rain Dancer and many others with a few OK pieces of gear, and it certainly help foster an enthusiasm for CB that has only recently waned.

Perhaps its best to say it like this. New players are the life blood of CB. If you do not agree go visit CB1 again. If you make it so that new players are less likely to stay, well there is little difference between closing the door and making it so difficult it is not fun in my opinion.

I realize spydah you are considerably more old school than I on CB, but regardless of that, are you so old school that you would rather CB die than to admit it might be OK to help a new player with a piece of gear now and then?

QBsutekh137 June 2 2005 8:38 PM EDT

Now I am in trouble for having influence?

Proof's in the pudding, Hoss. If some folks respect me, then maybe I'm...respectable?

(at least some of the time. *wink*)


Undertow June 2 2005 8:39 PM EDT

Okay, so you got help from more vetran players when you were new..... your point?

I would prefer to not get the help, I LIKE to start from the ground up, building my own character without the help of others.

The fact is, whether you like it or not the game changed. So now, new players need to rise through the garbled mass of lower weapons. That's just the way it is.

Jon's not gonna change it back.

Frod June 2 2005 8:46 PM EDT


"Every change is a good change, since it is a change - people." I forget who typed that, but yer dumb, all change is not good, period. This is very easily verifiable by putting a hole in your head with any particular tube of steel handy. Oops, did I go a bit extreme there? :p

I think you missed Moose's point. He listed the types of people who were hurt by, broke even on, and were helped by the change. He was saying that the "every-change-is-a-good-change" crowd liked the change, because it was a big one.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] June 2 2005 8:55 PM EDT

LOL Chet, not in trouble with me, but I was not going to let you sit back and say you had nothing to do with it either.

Of course you are respectable, that's my whole point about your influence, and whether you want it, like it, or use it, you got it, and so when you weigh in, well it's like a freight train and yeah I keep getting run over by it.

Undertow, Jon has reveresed or at least severly modified changes he made intitally in the past, I am not going to hold my breath or anything, but I do have hope.

As far as new players are concerned, I will simply say this, look at my long winded post about what would happen IF the NW to PR link was made, before it was made, and then look at what has happened since. I think you will see some simularities about what I predicted, and what has occured. That said, I predict a sharp reduction in new player retention. If you do not care about that, that's your choice, but I DO care about it, because I know from first hand experience what happens when you no longer have new players joining a game you love. (think cb1) So you may say do not help new players, let them make it on their own! And I say OK, but if I do that, will they truly bother to try? You might say if they can't bother to try, then good riddance. I say that attitude will have dire consequence for CB2. I hope you don't have it, heck I truly hope no one else shares your lack of concern about new players in general, because without them, well you wont believe me anyway, but you will someday :)

BrandonLP June 2 2005 9:07 PM EDT

Spydah is old school enough that it didn't happen. Heck, we had a hard enough time playing CB1 while Draege (I think that was his name) was busy having other accounts attack himself. ;)

Back then, yeah, handouts were not common at all. I'm of the opinion that new players should be helped, but I think it should be more along the lines of gameplay tips and possibly small amounts of money. I agree that items like THFs have no reason to go a new player. Sure, buy them a decent weapon, but a THF is a bit extreme for a newbie to use.

For the most part though, I agree with you Sefton.

spydah June 2 2005 9:39 PM EDT

oh lord, my apologies Frod, TOTALLY missed the connection there :p

See, this is why I keep to not posting. Let us see if I can prove why once again:

The difference is that, to me, this is the way it always should have been. As others say, PR = your power, right? Is your EQ not as much a part of what makes you kick booty as the XP you spend?

As to new players/helping new players and the end of CB1, lets not be silly, CB1 ended becuase Spid won.

I can't actually remember if anyone helped me in CB1 when I fist started. I don't think so, but if anyone remembers, wait, there are only, what, 2 people still here from then? Pelase let me know :p

Not to be a broken record here, but, no one would need item help if there were no rares (or transfers outside of user, but that precludes the point :p). It would be a simple save till you can afford it,

Bah, I had 3 paragrahps fo supportingness, wiped thanks to my lovely hibernating laptop :p Anyway, suffice to say, it is my belief that this change brings things closer to 'good balance', as anything that allows ity bity teams to decimate 'uge teams, is bad. Fod, Decay, equiping silly arsed NW items on a new team, all qualify in my book.


Quark June 2 2005 10:00 PM EDT

GL - I went and bought a Tulwar just for you. Think of it as earrings on my enchanter - pretty decorations!

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] June 2 2005 10:08 PM EDT

Thank you spydah, that I can understand, may not agree, but I can understand that point of view :)

Tim June 2 2005 10:35 PM EDT

I think balance has taken precedence over popularity in nearly all of CB's (one and two) major changes.

sonicstrike June 2 2005 11:06 PM EDT

my 2 cents

My first impression about new players not being able to get nice equipment because of this change makes me wonder. Why on earth is it such a fuss when a 10 power player gets a big weapon? Although a huge weapon seems to give the newbie an unfair advantage, what you are really doing is multiplying by 0. A newbie has very little power, and little effectiveness with formulation of strats, so it's like multiplying by nothing, and anyone who knows any math that anything multipled by zero is guess what... zero! However, this change nerfs the newbies the most. Also, it has been said many times that Jon hates the idea of mage blender. If this is true, why on earth would he make a change that targets the tanks the most? Can someone please tell me why a nerf that targets the lifebloods of CB, new players and creativity, can be good for the game at all? Equpiments do add to a character's ablilty or power, true. However, in a personal example, I rented out a Exe sword that was overpowered. It nearly quadrupled my power, however, I really couldn't beat any more people then I could before, and I had all rewards cut in about 1/3. No extra wins, but the weapon gives quad power? That's one of the most impractical, annoying things I've ever heard. So, in summation, this change nerfs all of the wrong people.

Lumpy Koala June 2 2005 11:33 PM EDT

It was meant to nerf people who spend ridiculous amount of USD or campers who hoarded too much wealth/NW . But in the event, it kinda limits everyone else.

I do like the change but the only thing that bothers me is the formula used to calculate the new PR from NW. I think it should be some sort of a non-linear formula that would raise the PR of top 20 NW dudes more than the average NW range and affect the least for those in low-end range. How to determine the range, I don't know, maybe set 10mil as a milestone for each exponential PR jump. Of course I don't know / care how Jon would come out with a win-win balance for this formula. I would say July change month would be more interesting :)

In short, the concept of this change is right, the formula used needs tweaking. And for those who starts to hate the game, just lay back and relax, it's Melissa(I hope I got the name correct) month for Jon after all :) Can't expect much from a father of TWO now, right?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 3 2005 4:10 AM EDT

:D G Maximus!

For a while, I had a Glaive on Tal. Just for decoration.

But is there really any point to saving 2K to buy a Tulwar from the store, then saving 3K to buy a LS then saving 5K....

Use your starter whip. Then either save cash to buy/rent a decent weapon or go mage.

I'd advise any new player, who would have no real CB2 to invest into thier characters to play a naked mage until they saved up enough money (after buying their whip to get those first 8 xp points for FB...) or become a supporter and start a tank with the *very* nice VB. No whip needed there.

In both senarios, no one will use the intermediate weapons.

There is, at this moment, just no need for them.

I feel like I'm starting to harp on now, but no one's given me a reason to use these weapons. I'll take that to mean everyone agrees with me that these items are a waste! :P

QBsutekh137 June 3 2005 9:17 AM EDT

One use for the lame weapon detritus: getting in the way of campers.

If everything that spawned was worthy, they would just gobble up every check box (kind of like they did at CB2's inception...)

Tim June 3 2005 9:23 AM EDT

Yea we could probably just get rid of half of the noobie armor and i doubt there would be many complaints, or even anyone that notices.

Todd June 8 2005 2:53 PM EDT

Not to beat a discussion further into the ground... Ranger posted this in another post somewhere, but I thought it applicable to the question Sefton asked:


People are actually getting away from using any armor at all due to the NW/PR linkage. Armor is now actually detrimental to your character. Think about an adam. Massive magic and dex penalty. And lets say you get it to +60 (NW about 2.5 million). That's about 21% less damage (melee)/12% less damage (magic) for a lot of PR addition. In my case, my +61 adam gives me 26k PR. The only armors worth using now are those that actually give you benefits such as a corn, COI, EG's, TG's, DB's etc.. Personally I use an adam since I have a top 10 character. If I did not, I would not use any body armor and save a whole lot of PR.

However, the benefits of a tattoo, esp a TOA for a tank, outweighs its PR addition.

I personally think, in addition to the weapon allowance, an armor allowance is needed.

--QBRanger, 2:19 PM EDT

My opinion, as I stated eariler in this thread is that the change makes sense, but it might need tweaking. I think the situation Ranger describes is proof that it still needs tweaking. It's just not right that a tank should have to unequip a normal piece of armor to ensure level-appropriate rewards. I like his idea of a NW allowance to include armor too.(Personally, I thought the NW allowance for tanks included all equipment - but I must be mistaken).

miteke [Superheros] June 9 2005 10:59 PM EDT

I'll reiterate the point I made in a separate thread.

PR increase should be tied to the items effectiveness, not NW.

If an item adds 10% to a skill it should add the value of that modification to the PR. For example, a Corn that boosted a char with a 100K spell to a 110K spell should have a PR as if he had 110K in the spell.

Thus it matters not a whit if the 700 PR or the 70PR char equips it. In both cases their increase will be proportionally the same. That +10 corn simply does not increase PR the same for both chars.

This is more difficult when considering armor, though I would say that a simple mod to hitpoints should do the trick.

Finally weapons are a bit difficult and the equation for that escapes me. Maybe base it on as formula involving base damage, ptd and pth that keeps it in tandem with the affect instead of NW?

What worked for tattoos does not work for other items. First of all both affect and NW are linear for tattoos, while affect and NW are completely and absurdly unrelated for something like a corn. At the very least moving the PR calcs to something linear instead of geometric would help, though I do wish we could somehow have the affect measure into the equation.

The main problem with all of this is that it is far to complicated for Jon to implement - at least easily.

LumpBot June 9 2005 11:07 PM EDT

Make it easy, make it like real life. You can't use an item at it's best potential unless you are high enough MPR. Such as, a X70 ELbow will only work as a X55 is your MPR is 130K. Just like real life a new driver can't run a Dodge Viper quite like a professional can. It just makes sense to me.

miteke [Superheros] June 10 2005 10:21 AM EDT

Even with an allowance, unless the allowance is geometric the geometric nature of NW will out pace it and going even a few levels higher than your allowance can have extreme results at higher levels.

The +9 to a corn costs 1.5 million. I can imagine that it would be counter productive to raise this piece of equipment even a single level higher than the allowance. And for that 1.5 million, imagine what you could do with a different item that scaled better, such as an ELB! All for a measly 2% increase which gave you no more of a bonus than your last 2% increase. It just does not make sense to base the PR mod off of a geometrically increasing NW for a linearly increasing bonus.

bartjan June 10 2005 4:02 PM EDT

"Armor is now actually detrimental to your character."

I don't think it's that bad. For example, my tank at the moment has [73] (+91) in armor, plus a Mage Shield. Ignoring that Mage Shield, this set does increase my PR with 18,872. In return, it does modify the following stats:
-19,500 to DX
- 8,320 to Archery
+18,728 to ST
+23,625 to HP (against magic) or
+52,532 to HP (against physical).

The end result is that it adds 14,533 (or 43,440) levels to my stats for a 18,872 PR increase. How much real stats could I get for 18,872 MPR?

And my choice of armor, at their current level, isn't even optimal...

miteke [Superheros] June 10 2005 5:26 PM EDT

But, as the levels go up and the NW increased geometrically, the PR mod increased geometrically and your benefits do not. Eventually, it will not be cost effective. Certain items scale better than most (such as ELBs) and some worse (such as Corns), but all will eventually reach a point where the cost outstrips the benefit. Add another +20 to that armor and the equation may very well change.

This is all assuming the PR mods are geometric. I've never actually checked it and am assuming since it has been said that the modes are based off of NW.

AdminShade June 10 2005 7:54 PM EDT

at higher NW's items give less PR, i already have found that with my NW / PR graph that i will upload very very soon.

LumpBot June 10 2005 7:58 PM EDT

Bartjan, I think we are talking more on the line of AC gear. Even Ranger admitted Str/Dex enhancing equipment is good.

AdminShade June 10 2005 8:01 PM EDT


An Adamantite Cuirass A Pair of Tulkas' Gauntlets
An Elven Cloak A Helm of Durin
A Set of Chain Mail Leggings A Mage Shield

aren't those items for AC? (ok the EC & MgS perhaps not but the rest sure is)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] June 10 2005 8:08 PM EDT


An Adamantite Cuirass A Pair of Tulkas' Gauntlets
An Elven Cloak A Helm of Durin
A Set of Chain Mail Leggings A Mage Shield

aren't those items for AC? (ok the EC & MgS perhaps not but the rest sure is)

Look again Shade TG, EC, and MgS or 50% of the items are not intended solely for raising AC.

Kikyoo June 11 2005 11:03 AM EDT

well i do not know about balanceing this new system, but i will offer some insight into Seftons first questions. I know for a fact that a few people are getting fed up with the game, and simply not playing anymore. It's not so much that the NW/PR link is the problem, but they got tired of fighting nothing but mages. At low levels they didn't want too adhear too some cookie cutter strategy, but found at low levels without anit magic sheild, or ranged weapond or magic, they simply got creamed. Also i've noticed a lot of people who give me troubel all have familars. It seems too me, rather than waste money on bulky armor, it's become popular too get a familar, and simply let it carry you for a while. Of corse that may just be my opion. I managed too get past the first hump with Anitmagic sheild, and UC. With how many singel mages there are now, it seems that this is the way too go for any and all people who wana go melee. Later you can untrain UC if you want, but the NW/PR linkage dosn't affect you, If you don't use any equipment. And acualy, haveing made one groupe before my 2nd, i found my singel tank with UC and AMS did extremly well. I couldn't belive how fast he was growing, and he was easily beating those singel mages for a very long time. However i must admit, I was very close too quitting CB2 when someone sent me a firefamilar, and then suddenly none of my battels got out of ranged combat. That's when i started my 2ndary char, and grew too love him so much, that i abonded my main, and my 2ndary became my new main. I tried too restart my main char, too make it more melee oriented, but that did not fare well. I ended up doing what i was doing before, got sick of it, and retired the char. hmm. I think i've goten slightly off topic, sorry. Anyways the NW/PR linkage limates people a lot, and i don't think that's good. It's also makeing Cookie cutter newbs, and i think that's bad too. Though honestly, People who are gona play this game a lot, are simply going too play this game a lot, The amont of people turned away by the NW/PR linkage i don't think is as great as you think it is. But I've heard some of the stuff the higher chars can do, and i agree. Currently i don't think it's possibel for anyone out of that "high level loop" too catch them. But i've never been out too be the best, so I really can't say about that.

moser June 11 2005 11:29 AM EDT

Kikyoo, you haven't even played a whole month yet and barely run more than 10k BA total.

Nixon Jibfest June 11 2005 11:45 AM EDT

I'll apologize for this simple analogy but....

The NW/PR change is like setting a 10 mile/hour speed limit on every road. What fun is that?

Otherwise, i think sefton is pretty much on target. Several people make the argument that the new change will make players think more about strategy, but i'd argue the opposite. There's less thinking involved now. Just stick with mage blender and you won't run into the problem with nw/pr.

QBRanger June 11 2005 12:00 PM EDT

I can easily say the following:

If I did not have a top 10 character and therefore was hit hard with the penalties associated with having a super high PR, I would not be involved with cb anymore.

What is the fun to run a mage or mage team?

For me, none. The best part of CB is the ability to get and upgrade weapons/armor and use them to make a killer character. If I was about 200k MPR, what is the benefit of trying to get that uber item/armor when all it will do is put you further behind, that is decrease rewards to virtually nothing.

There are/were a few much better solutions to the NW/PR thing that could be done.

IMO, less and less people are staying with more and more leaving. Just look at all the sales at the present time. I even notice less posts in the forums.

Its getting very sad to see this happen to a once great game.

QBsutekh137 June 11 2005 1:44 PM EDT

I have one character to point to in order to say that Mage Blender is not the only game in town:


Spid beats me handily while having less PR. If I had more mages, I would just die more quickly because of his huge AMF. His NW is modest, and he is not able to hide in the Top Ten.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe his rewards suck. Spydah, would you care to weigh in on whether or not you think CB has become "mage blender"?

From where I am sitting, CB is still ToA/NW Blender... Is that more fun? Sure, tanks are probably more fun to run than a bunch of mages, but I wouldn't exactly call it cutting edge rocket science either.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] June 11 2005 4:59 PM EDT

Yes perhaps Chet, but, as you so lovingly point out, this change did not change anything. NW and ToA still ruling the day, so why did you want it again?

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] June 11 2005 5:02 PM EDT

P.S. I have a much more simple change that would have fixed why you like it so much, REMOVE the ability to fight by PR, and viola, no surprises, your score reflects both your PR, MPR, NW and all the things that makes your character kick rear end, or not. So why not simply remove the ability to sort your fight list and fight based upon character PR and you will never be surprised again :)

QBsutekh137 June 12 2005 9:55 AM EDT

Sefton, "want" is an interesting word. I supported a change that I thought made logical sense, and I still do.

In case folks haven't figured out, I am not a whiner who just wants changes made to better my own team. I am GLAD Spid can beat me, as it shows that mages aren't the only game in town. Now I just have to figure out of there is any valid strat other than all-mage (the more concentrated variety like Susan Death and Black Card Situation) or ToA/NW. I know my strategy is barely viable.

Before there was one strat that trumped all: net worth (usually with a ToA). Now at least there are two. *smile* I would say that is progress.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] June 12 2005 3:01 PM EDT

Progress at the xpense of the economy, rentals, and new players to add one more strat, hmm I will be willing to bet there are only 20 ppl (or less) in all of CB2 that think that its worthwhile trade off to add one more strat at the expense of BoNE's selling for less than 2mil base, and all the other bad things this has caused. Again I say, down with change, fight by score, and the change is unneeded :)
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001N3u">So NW is linked to PR, are we better off?</a>