Take my NUB and carp it! (in General)


[T]Vestax June 21 2005 5:50 AM EDT

I got here and thought this game was kinda fun at first. My only problem was that annoying chat window at the bottom taking up space on my screen. My first strat was a tank w/ a cutlass, a CoC mage, and an archer with a sling. I had Haste, AMF, EC and host of other odd EO's, ED's, and skills. Quite honestly it's one of the most horrible strats I have ever seen, and I owned it. Then I thought forging would be cool, I wasted my first 1000 BA heating up a Cutlass for random intervals only to have that blasted dwarf come over and dip my stuff in cold water. Yeah, I think it's really funny now too.

However, I studied the game a lot and read the faq's top to bottom. I ignored the message at the top about a mentor, quite honestly I can't remember who it was. I was determined to figure this game out all by myself. My second strat is exactly what you see on my main character right now. I have never ever changed my strat since then aside from one thing. I was finally given advice to drop the AMF I had on the AS enchanter since two AMF's is lost xp.

Right after I finally got my score over my PR for the first time, I then took a relatively long brake from the game. Finally I came back and found out that this game is more then just fun, but addicting too. I proceeded with my conquest of each minor increase in PR all the while fighting people half my score. And while others were getting free tattoos by Sefton I was saving every last penny I had for a Lesser IF and then later on a regular, but base, IF.

It wasn't until I was about 20k PR that I went to bid on what I thought was a Blade of Thuringwethil but was in fact a kat with a name of 'A Blade of Thuringwethil'. I spent nearly all of what I had on that one bid, which was no more then as meager 200k. Then it looked like no one would out bid me. I didn't know what to do, half of every dollar I had ever earned, in what was by then a month, was about to go down the drain. It was then that I met Koala (a.k.a. K_bear) for the first time. I chat mailed her to request my money back. I admit it I wasn't as polite as I could be, but hard work was on the line. Koala was nicer then I thought she would be and agreed to trade the money back for the item, spite the fact that she too had been duped and was just trying to give it away. Finally someone out bid me and the event was a piece of the past.

Yet, with that chapter closed a new chapter had in turn begun and the world of CB2 opened up to me finally. Koala started to say hi to me in the chat on the bottom of the screen and in no time I finally figured out what that thing was really for. Now I'm afraid you can't get me to shut up in the new players chat. When the game tried to graduate me to carnage it only took me a day for me to reset my starting chat room as new players once again. Now I make it a point to help new players when I can and give them pointers. I have just promoted the chat to it's own full window so that I don't miss a thing anymore.

It was about the time that Koala started saying hi to me that I figured out that fighting those with higher scores then you was a much better return. When my score was finally double my PR I announced it and in return I was told to "keep up the good work" and that I should "try to keep it like that for as long as you can." That was about 40k PR and that difference kept spreading as that PR got higher. At the writing of this post my Score/PR ratio is 3.24. This is all from a strat that any of you can recognize as old news, heck Ranger has four clones of my strat, but this didn't come from you. My strat cam from me and the ratios of my levels are the same as they were when I originally set them.

It wasn't until a week ago that I started to buy up my BA. This has been only my first 24 hours in a clan and yet I have already received many pats on the back from most of it's members for my hard work. I have come a long way in this game and I think you all ought to know this. I wanted to show that even with a week or so break a new player can a lot to say about what has happened since.

My contact with the forums has been limited I admit. On my first visit here I looked at some post about someone asking for advice on their strat. This was my first taste of CB terminology. All I saw was should my ToB be a ToA and should my DD be CoC instead of MM and so on and so forth. My next visit was me making a post about clans followed by me being properly trampled on. Since then I have steadily and yet slowly increased my visits here. Now that I am at my current peak of forum visits I am for the first time repulsed by this game. The chats reveal a great community of players, but these forums betray you of that opinion. I think I have never until now seen childish bickering being steadily typed out by the veteran players. Granted the new players can be cocky and rude, non-the-less your reactions are not much better.

I understand that maybe I ought to be cut down a few notches but when you talk about players with a new players bonus, I begin to realize that your talking about me. I begin to realize that you respect nothing that I have gone through and mock all the events I have listed above. You are letting me know quite clearly that you don't like me. And as much as you will deny this and say how it's really the NUB you hate, it doesn't change the fact that I possess the NUB which you hate and will therefore look at what I have as mere effortless randomness. I wasn't going to stop playing when my NUB went away. I don't even want to be number one spite all of my effort. I just wanted to have a place in this community and do my part to help those new players that don't ignore the chat on the bottom of the screen. But as I sift deeper into the forums I question whether or not this is the community for me.

I will stand by my commitment to StrongMad and give his clan the week that I promised and I will not weaver in my effort to earn them rank. However, unless I see the better side of CB again reflected in it's players I might just let my account disappear into the deep abyss, which is in fact your own passion for this game.

Maybe Jon himself can save me. Maybe he'll do me the favor of making my NUB disappear and I can once again be respected. Maybe he can pass on that pathetic bonus onto one of you who hate it so much and then you can see how I feel when you get shamed for having it. Face it, your never going to agree with yourselves because you want it all. You want player's to have to work as hard as you to be where you are and yet you want players to get a leg up so that things keep moving and changing around here. Maybe your all obsessed with power that you can't fathom someone who doesn't want to be the top player. Later CB, I leave it all to you to decide my own fate. I'm sure you'll just make another post about how another bites the dust.

AdminShade June 21 2005 5:52 AM EDT

wow lot to read but what a story...

QBJohnnywas June 21 2005 6:14 AM EDT

What a story is right. And I think a story that most players without the NUB would agree is very very similar to the start that they had. The NUB may make things happen more quickly - to get to 400k + in just over a month is very fast - but you don't get that high without at least understanding strategy. A team with nothing but decay and a xbow and arrows wouldn't get very far regardless of how much NUB that player got.

I don't see what the fuss is. Without the NUB it's more than possible to raise a character to 300/400k in a couple of months. Ranger was one of the top players in the game within his first 3 months. All those people who are crying over their milk and cookies should realize that any advantage is useless unless the player knows how to play the game. Are people just scared of the challenge? The NUB offers no more advantage than the old strategy of small character with huge NW or tattoo. And how many of the top players along the way can say they didn't take advantage of that?

Xiaz on Hiatus June 21 2005 6:14 AM EDT

I myself have felt the gaming side of CB slip away. Back in the day, there was this sense of competitiveness, an urge to beat that character who always seems to have the upper hand. I still do, but unfortunately I don't really see that nowadays.

Everything is "by the book," what to do, how to do it, what not to do. However much I appreciate and respect all those putting up guide etc. But in a sense, aren't you robbing the game of that critical element, that "I'll try this and hope it works" without being ridiculed or even told you are doing the wrong thing.

I believe this is the one reason why so many people are upset, when Jon makes a critical change, or even a mediocre one.

Quite sad you're leaving GunProodVestax, and it really does disgust me that people of here, who claim themselves welcoming and friendly would lead someone to posting something as deep and truthful as this.

But as I've said many a time, see you soon. :)

QBJohnnywas June 21 2005 6:18 AM EDT

yeah, I meant to say GunProof - don't leave. Stick around. See after a while you won't be the noob who got an unfair advantage. You'll be GunProof who put in the time and got where he was through hard work. =)

People always need someone/something to knock and pretty soon there'll be something else for them to focus on... changemonth again in a couple of weeks..........

QBRanger June 21 2005 6:40 AM EDT

Ranger wipes the tears from his eyes, sniff, sniff.

Let me tell you a story.

Ranger joined cb1 on Dec 16th 2004, just before cb2. The day cb2 came out, Ranger joined. And Ranger read the FAQ and the help sections. And Ranger checked out the links from the community page and read profusely. Only took Ranger a couple days to do it.

Then Ranger made his EEMM team and took off. He was initially in the top 50 or so since he was a relatively Noob to the game in general. And there was no NUB at that time. He also noticed chat and forums since they are RIGHT THERE, and used them, a lot to learn and learn. In the beginning Ranger was not making enough money to buy BA, but the second he could, about jan 20th or so, bought all his BA everyday, including Sundays.

Ranger also founded a clan, that is one of the top 3 clans. It was hard work getting good players but persistence payed off.

Through playing a lot, not missing many BA's, accumulating items (yes some with usd), Ranger changed his team to a EEWT. Then in time, when the tattoo artist came out, changed his large TOJ to a TOA. Then when the MgS came out, Ranger was able to drop an enchanter. But one thing is constant, persistence.

But throught it all, one thing stood out, persistence and non stop playing. It really irks me that most of the new players seem to feel that they are entitled to the NUB since they are new and need to learn the game. If you look at my prior post, yes, I feel the NUB is need but not for this long. Not to get a top 6 character this fast. Sort of diminishes the accomplishments of me, Sefton, Bast, Chet, Markxe, Avoid, et.al.

But you notice one common theme in my post-Persistence. All of us were noobs once, either in cb1 or cb2 but we all persisted through it with no supercharger to help us along.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 21 2005 6:48 AM EDT

:)

My mentor had to give me 2K when I first started, as I'd spent all my cash on a new weapon, lost my next fight, and didn't have *any* money to heal to fight again.

As for the chat window, I've got it switched off for various reasons, the only real involvement I have with the CB community is through the forums and CMs, but I've never seen the forums let down the community.

I don't hate new users, I don't hate the NUB. No matter how much I complained about the CBF I didn't hate it. Or ELBows. I think some aspects skew strategy by being unbalanced, and I'm not shy about being vocal with my complaints.

I hope you don't leave GPV, as all players bring more to the game, but you seem to be taking this very personally.

At the hight of my CBF shouting, I hope the owners of the CBFs didn't think I was personally attacking them. I wasn't. I myself (over the time) owned 3 CBFs.

If poeple here discuss the NUB, they're not attacking you personally.

AdminShade June 21 2005 6:49 AM EDT

and i was your mentor Gentleman ;)

[T]Vestax June 21 2005 7:03 AM EDT

Ranger, Paragraph 9, Sentence 6 & 7. Maybe you should have read up to that point before you posted your touching story.

To all others I appreciate the responses and some of the things you have said in public and in private chat have made me feel a bit better.

On a side note with help from Shade I tried to get rid of my new player bonus by buying a zero score character he made for me. Alas it hasn't worked yet. Thank you Shade, even if it doesn't work I appreciate the help.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 21 2005 7:12 AM EDT

That you were Shade! I've not forgotten the help you game me when I started! ;)

GPV. Don't try to get rid of it. Use it till Jon changes it. I used a ToE until it was changed, make a point of how unballanced it is by pushing your character into the top ten. But support the change when it comes.

Also, I don't know who told you two AMF's is lost XP. It's not. Training X xp on two minions in a EO is the same as training 2*X on 1 minion. It's only of less worth with ED s because DM works at full strength versus both.

QBRanger June 21 2005 7:18 AM EDT

GPV,

I think you misunderstand most of the post are against the NUB not new players in general. If you look back at the forums, there was something call a Quarter Blender selection. In it some of us had to post our thoughts on the game.

Most of us stated that new players are the key to keeping cb2 going. Its just that most of us had to start for the bottom and slowly work our way up to where we are now. It seems to me, among others (and if they want to post they can) that a lot of the new players feel that they should be able to catch the top player in 1/3 the time. Without the effort and dedication the "elders" put in.

The NUB is needed, but not to let someone get this high. IMO naturally.

Xiaz on Hiatus June 21 2005 7:35 AM EDT

The discussion/argument maybe about the NUB, but this post is a clear example about how the people, the NUB directly affects, feel about the issue.

Let's put this into perspective, someone gives you a gift, you can't get rid of it, yet everyone begins talking about how the gift is too much etc. Sure they aren't talking about you, but you still feel a degree of "negativity" about the whole situation.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 21 2005 7:41 AM EDT

*shrugs*

I think VB s are over powered. They've negated *all* the melee weapons bellow them. Who wants a Tulwar?

I've voiced this opinion.

I also bought one.

Why would *any* player feel any negativity towards my comments about VB s? Especially those that use them.

The same should be said for the New User Bonus...

(And don't mention that I could just sell the VB...That's missing the point...)

[T]Vestax June 21 2005 7:48 AM EDT

Ranger, how many times am I going to have to refer you to what has already been written until you realize that, spite what the heading implies, this isn't another post focused around the new players bonus. This post is about this community and it just so happens that the NUB is a hot issue right now. Everyone can see that this is a post of someone struggling to see if they should stay or go... everyone except for you that is.

The forums are riddled with posts about how the new player's bonus sucks or about how it's a great thing. In fact your responses are among everyone of those post. Please keep your ideas about how things should change in those other places.

QBRanger June 21 2005 7:59 AM EDT

GPV,

Funny thing in that the first few paragraphs your having a nice self pity party about all the problems you faced starting the game. Trust me, I have thrown a few of those myself.

Then you talk about the community.

Im responding to both those statements in my posts.

You really need to take a chill pill.

From the last paragraph of your initial rant: "Maybe Jon himself can save me. Maybe he'll do me the favor of making my NUB disappear and I can once again be respected."

You yourself opened the door on that discussion with that paragraph and the ones in the beginning. I dont see where you say "lets just talk about the community". So my post in this thread are addressing your entire post or at least some parts of it.

You think we disrespect you. Perhaps I do now that your attacking me personally but ask around. I do not hate/disprect/devalue any of the new players. In fact, I help as many out as I can in forums/chat/CM. Its the NUB that its the problem. You have to separate the two like most of us have when you read the posts either for or against it.

Part of the good thing about CB is the ability to post/debate in forums and try to not make it personal. I think your fairly close to crossing that line.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] June 21 2005 8:10 AM EDT

I completely agree with GPV here. I've been through a lot on this game and just finally became a supporter. I still ask for some strat help from time to time and I help out anyone who asks me for some pointers. This NUB is getting the better of all of us on here. Everyone is taking a side on the matter and it's just escalating the situation. It would be nice for anyone who has a NUB to have a choice to disregard the bonus and join the ranks of the CB2 Veterans out there that have not ever had a NUB. That would be a nice choice to give to the new players out there that want to work hard. Me I'm one of those. I want to work however hard I need to, to achieve a high score so that I can say that it was all my hard work and not have someone belittle my accomplishment to the NUB being around.

AdminG Beee June 21 2005 8:35 AM EDT

wldlr reached 2mil PR on CB1 in 6 months !

Arguably not comparing apples with apples but just goes to show what a good strat, sleepless nights and lots of coffee can do for you.

Carnage Blender has always (and will always) be a revolving door for New Players. As Chet has said on a few occasions, the best rewards come from longevity.

Phaete June 21 2005 9:32 AM EDT

I fully agree with you GPV.

what i notice (and am sometimes guilty of as well), is that most people resist change by expressing either horror, dissatisfaction and some more negative emotions.
Mostly because it forces them to change as well, with their disadvantages are always outweighing the others advantages (your own baby is always the most beautiful one in the world)

I try just to push the fear for change away and embrace the change, no need for unnecesary emotions hindering me.

I'm also happy Jon bases his changes mostly on just pure statistical data.

QBsutekh137 June 21 2005 10:14 AM EDT

Gun, a nice story.

I am still a bit confused about what exactly you have a beef about? Could we get some specific examples of forum postings you dislike? The attitudes which dismay you? As the old adage of writing dictates: "show don't tell."

I am asking for examples because I make lots of comments on the game, mainly in forums. I am both a veteran and a bickerer (even childish at times!) But by and large I try to be unbiased. I am pointing out imbalances (as I see them) and trying to make CB a stronger game...that type of game you wax nostalgic about in your original post. I love that game too, as do many others.

So, please enlighten me as to some specific examples of this horrible, childish bickering you are referring to. After you do come up with some good examples, please also list some other Internet forums/groups/chatrooms you know of that are entirely empty of such immature antics. I am betting both lists will at least be short -- the second one, if done realistically, will be empty.

Oh, and one more thing: AMFs are completely stackable, and if you have the slot, it is not a bad idea at all to do so. *smile*

Phaete June 21 2005 10:34 AM EDT

Perhaps some of the advice on this page will help to get the forums more friendly?

How To Handle A Troll, and Beat Them at Their Own Game

Fantasysage June 21 2005 10:37 AM EDT

Let me start off by saying im the leader of GVP's current clan. He is working his butt off, and i really appreciate how he's doing.

Second off, I feel you with the story, people wont take you seriously if you have the NUB sometimes, but i say its alright, and i block them out of my mind. GVP you cannot let these people get to you, just relax and enjoy the game for what is is, a game.

{EQ}Viperboy June 21 2005 10:38 AM EDT

wow...can't believe i read all of this. I'll tell you what ignore all of these posts except mine =). You have earned your respect through trial and error and came out on top so to speak.

Everyone on CB2 complains about something some about NUB some about their nerfed item or whatever, don't listen to them. personally I love the NUB bonus and would love to have it now, i mean its a crazy bonus thats why we're like in top 5 on clan standings to get as big of a bonus as possible, lol and have that unfair advantage so to speak.

If you don like one person or what they say ignore them in chat i mean i have always ignored mushu since CB1 when i first met him and I'm very very happy person now. =)

(the chat community is diverse explore a bit, the ones who talk the most are probably those you might not want to walk with lol)

On the final note, be proud of your NUB and use it well it won't last for long, and you'll miss it, everyone does. Ranger is just jelous he could never get the chance to use it, I mean who told him to join on December 21? maybe another person's strategy who foresaw this NUB was to join later on in Jan, or FEB. (any way he is #1 so to speak not sure why he is so cranky. but don't worry one of us will overcome him soon, only a matter of time)

Keep up the Good WOrk!!!

QBRanger June 21 2005 10:45 AM EDT

Viperboy,

The gauntlet has been thrown. Catch me if you can, NUB or not :-).

BTW, im not jealous of the NUB. True I did not get it, but for all the effort I put into the game over the past 6 months, just to see a new player come close to beating me is, to say the least, upsetting.

Please try to imagine my point of view on this matter. Imagine if you worked your butt off to get to the top of a game and then some new player just comes right in and starts to challenge you.

But, Ill take it as good competition, and continue to keep one of the top spots as long as possible.

NSFY June 21 2005 10:52 AM EDT

These n00bs with NUBs (NwN) whine almost as much as campers !?!?!? NO RESPECT FOR YOU!

QBJohnnywas June 21 2005 10:54 AM EDT

Ah that's the cb I know and love. Look at all the happy boys and girls tearing each other limb from limb...

[EG] Almuric June 21 2005 10:58 AM EDT

I've been working almost as heard as Ranger. I'm not opposed to the NPB. Quite the contrary. Anybody who can catch the top 10, more power to you. We need more competition at the top, not less.

Use whatever means you have to get there. Buy an unused char. Spend US$. Whatever. The more chars up here, the more people for me to beat on, the quicker I can use my BA. It's a win-win for me.

And if you pass me, I admire your dedication. Your sights shouldn't be set on Ranger, though. Avoid's the man to catch. Look at his history graph sometime. Notice there's not a single spot where it's horizontal. He takes no time off, whatsoever. The only reason he's not #1 Score is that he doesn't have the greatest strat. But given enough time, he'll probably be #1 in score also. In the end, PR trumps everything.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] June 21 2005 11:01 AM EDT

Well I guess I will toss my $.12 in, (inflation and all). First off, anytime any group feels strongly about any issue, once you pick a side it is easy to feel personal about the other side's portrayal of it. I think I could easily make a case about politics and religion in a similiar vein. If someone would attack my political or religious views, I would vigorously defend them, but then once the battle was over, I would not suddenly hate everyone on the other side, because I was slugging it out with one member of it.

The posts between Chet and I in regards to the issue I think is even hotter than NUB, the NW to PR link border on encyclopedic, and since I feel so strongly about it, and he does, often heated. But Chet is a great guy and my friend. Just because he is wrong about the NW to PR link (wink, still taking shots where I can) doesn't mean he will stop being my friend.

In the end learn to seperate your self from the issues. If you don't do it here and now, you will have to do it sometime in your life, or end up tilting at windmills. Trust me, there is only pain and suffering down that road. If you have to learn that for yourself, I understand. But as a wise man once said, a fool learns from his own mistakes, and wise man from the mistakes of others.

Lastly, I use a tool here on CB that very few people can honestly access, and it generates some hard feelings I think, when those who cannot see the success I get from it. The NUB is the same way, so use it until its gone (cause that might be in about a week) and don't feel ashamed, feel proud, that you were smart enough to make use of every legal advantage the game gives you. I did, and even though my MPR is about 1/2 of Chet's I still kick his butt on the battlefield and I am quite proud of that! (adding dig, even after the NW to PR link)

QBJohnnywas June 21 2005 11:10 AM EDT

Contained in Sefton's post are two very valid and useful philosopies: 1. Maintain a sense of humour at all times. It's a game.... 2. Use any ( CB legal) means necessary to fight your way to the top. You have an advantage, use it. The road to the top is paved with the skulls of others..... =)

Famous June 21 2005 11:38 AM EDT

Well i dont know how much my words are worth but i agree i dont know if im confused but i hate the NUB i think its personally useless and people should just play on their own. If they do not want to take the time out to work on their character the old fashioned way good ol hard work then let them leave they are not needed here with that kind of attitude.

{CB1}Lukeyman June 21 2005 11:41 AM EDT

Ok, I don't really want to read everything here, but i agree with famous completely, if people aren't going to play if they don't get the NUB then they shouldn't play, I started CB1 and there were people in the millions, far ahead of me, but i sat down in my chair, and played hard, and I got up their, mind you not too far, but I had lots of fun, being a Newb is what this game is about, you have to mature into to CB, you shouldn't be able to just blow into it and become number 1. Newbism is a thing we should all go through, for, without it, who really is number 1?

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] June 21 2005 11:54 AM EDT

Perhaps we could keep the NUB and just institute a much more stringent noob hazing policy? Then they can catch us, instead of languishing forever waiting for attrition to allow them a chance at a top spot, but still be made to feel like noobs.

Mistress Reyna June 21 2005 11:55 AM EDT

/me gets on her lil soap box

easily fixed situation here GPV
run your NUB into the ground, because when it wears out you'll be one step closer to not catching the big boys. while people are burning through BA using the bonus, the circle of the elite are still working on themselves and truly let a big bad NUB kiddo sneak up on one of the big 5, the NUB will get thrown for a loop when they hit that nice big NW and learn that they can't touch the big boys, NUB or not. so all you big boys, sit back and smile laugh and watch the NUB's scramble to catch you then feel free to smack then with your oversized NW newb swatter. and those who have a NUB be all ya can be, just leave my cuthbo alone please he doesnt get out much

/me gets off her soap box

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 21 2005 1:22 PM EDT

"Oh, and one more thing: AMFs are completely stackable, and if you have the slot, it is not a bad idea at all to do so. *smile*"

Beat you to it Chet! :P

QBsutekh137 June 21 2005 2:44 PM EDT

Gah! Damn those hidden posts and my infernal laziness! *smile*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 21 2005 3:04 PM EDT

*Shock & Horror* You don't read entire threads! :D

RedWolf June 21 2005 3:26 PM EDT

First i would like to say, great story. I enjoyed reading it. Also, i spent almost an hour reading this entire post =P

Secondly, i understand how you must be feeling. Life is that way. I can't say anything for myself, so i'll try and say something for my brother. Years ago, we got internet. I was, uh, maybe about 7 or 8, i can't remember. My brother, however, was around 20. I can only imagine how he felt, knowing that i get to grow up with this wonderful thing and he didn't. I'm assuming thats how you feel with the NUB. Cell phones, too. My brother got a cell phone when he was 22, yet i see many people, some as young as 11 or 12, with them. But they don't complain that they have this great stuff. As far as i know, only Amish people say "to heck with this computer, tv, and cell phone!" And i know eventually, when im older, there will be things that my kids get that i never got. Its just the way technology is advancing.

Now back to CB. Basically what I'm saying is, use the NUB to your advantage, don't complain that you have it. You don't complain that you have a computer, or internet for that matter. And about the people criticizing the NUB...

Imagine its your best friend's birthday. He gets $1,000 and his own plasma wide screen televiision. What do you get? $10 and a cheap lego set. Sure, you would talk about his gifts with other people, saying thats a lot to give somebody, its too much, he doesn't deserve it, why don't i get that stuff, blah blah blah. But you aren't actually criticizing HIM, are you? You're not against HIM, your against his gifts.

I really don't know how much my words mean among all the other posts on this thread, and yes i am aware that i just repeated some people, but maybe, just maybe i helped put things in perspective. If there's one thing I've learned in my 14 years on earth, is that everything i say and do affects somebody or something somewhere. So, who knows, maybe my comment helped keep you here at CB at least a little longer.

Oh yeah, one last thing. /me takes your NUB and carps it

=P

{EQ}Viperboy June 21 2005 9:14 PM EDT

lol nice post redwolf...i agree
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