AxBow research (in General)

miteke [Superheros] August 28 2006 10:08 AM EDT

The WIKI says

Drains DX: 1/3% of the target's DX plus some unknown constant (about 225) for every 'x' on the crossbow. (i.e. A [4x1] Assassin's Crossbow drains 0.33% DX plus ?? DX per damage dealing hit.)

With the new 'x' values this formula is no longer correct. What is the correct formula. I'd sure like to know how much my Axbow drains to determine if it is useful, and the combat reports don't tell me.

AdminShade August 28 2006 10:21 AM EDT

with the new X formula, it is 1/11th of before.

though the ?? is still uncertain.

miteke [Superheros] August 28 2006 12:09 PM EDT

Are you sure? The old X was not linear so why would the formula remain linear with regard to +?

If it is 1/11 then you would get a 100% reduction with a x1100! That is not true, right?

miteke [Superheros] August 28 2006 12:13 PM EDT

Or is it x3300?

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] August 28 2006 12:15 PM EDT

1/11th of the previous formula so each x now only does 1/33% instead of 1/3% and if the 225 was correct before then it is now 225/11 or around 20.5.

miteke [Superheros] August 28 2006 12:23 PM EDT

I think the formula is (1/33 * x)% + 225 if Shade is correct.

If this is a % then you get to 100% reduction at x3300. That would be nasty as this is quite reachable. If it is not a %, then it would seem more balanced. Can some one confirm?

I'd be willing to participate in some tests if someone would volunteer to report battle results when fighting against me.

miteke [Superheros] August 28 2006 3:11 PM EDT

Anyone interested? Just attack me with a tank that I can hit and let me know what happened to your minions dex.

AdminShade August 28 2006 3:13 PM EDT

It should be a %, though I think that it won't be as easy to get to 100%.

Also with a few hits you would already get a negative DX induced with an Axbow.

Just attack some Axbow using tanks and see what their Axbows do to your DX.

miteke [Superheros] August 30 2006 2:22 PM EDT

That won't help unless I know their X, and I can't raise the X to see what happens the next time.

miteke [Superheros] August 30 2006 2:57 PM EDT

Thanks to Ambidex I have the following numbers:

Ethereal Chains: 131,328 (65,684)
x342 Axbow

One hit took 146,000 DX to 69,635
Two hits took 146,000 DX to 59,691

EC should have reduced his dex from 146K to 80K or so. So the Axbow is delivering a reduction of about the 10% expected. It also looks like each hit takes off about the same amount (i.e. the reduction is not recalculated after the first dex loss), but I'll need more data to verify.

AdminNightStrike August 31 2006 11:59 AM EDT

Do a test without EC. It'll just get in the way for now.

AdminShade August 31 2006 1:22 PM EDT

you need a target with which your DX isn't modified by EC (or a really small amount)

AdminNightStrike August 31 2006 1:35 PM EDT

Didn't I just say that?

AdminShade August 31 2006 1:42 PM EDT

Didn't I just confirm your idea to help? >.<

miteke [Superheros] August 31 2006 5:23 PM EDT

I don't want to untrain my EC. I hate wasting experience.

QBRanger August 31 2006 5:30 PM EDT

Then equip a MgS on the EC minion. That will make its level 0.

miteke [Superheros] September 1 2006 7:01 AM EDT

Good idea Ranger. Now I still need someone to run a few experiments against.

AdminShade September 1 2006 11:35 AM EDT

you could attack me, I have an Axbow also :) (and a small EC which shouldn't bother you)

AdminShade September 1 2006 11:58 AM EDT

I did some research on my own and present some data:

G_Beee was so friendly to conduct a series of battles against me and gave me his information:

His DX stats of all his minions, the 1.1 mil DX is of his tank, my small EC makes his PL minion not linking the DX drain.
DX: 18/20
DX: 1,139,398/290,000

= = = = = = = = = =

some fights while i had a named X350 + 65 Axbow equipped: (his Tank's DX is noted)

2 hits: DX: 907,815
3 hits: DX: 809,250

= = = = = = = = = =

some fights while i had a named X1000 +167 Axbow equipped: (his Tank's DX is noted)

4 hits: DX: 357,121
5 hits: DX: 260,174
7 hits: DX: 128,439

Making a few quick calculations gets me to the point of assuming every X50 does 1% DX drain + an unknown non percentage drain.

This is based on an approximate 10% DX drain from my own Axbow (the drain is much higher with the X1150 (in effect) axbow though)

Now for some small testing of the variables:

With my own Axbow with X500 in effect this would be 10% drain + unknown

Grabbing the data this would become the following story:

1 hit would make the DX 1,025,458 minus the unknown factor
2 hits would make the DX 922,912 minus 2 times the unknown factor
3 hits would make the DX 830,621 minus 3 times the unknown factor

since the unknown factor is the same on both occasions, it can be calculated.

922,912 - 907,815 = 15097 or around 7500 per hit. This would be 15 per X then. (for 2 hits)
830,621 - 809,250 = 21371 or around 7100 per hit. This would be little over 14 per X then. (for 3 hits)

Now checking this with the X1150 axbow:

this axbow would drain 23% (1150/50) plus the unknown non factor amount per hit

4 hits would make the DX 400,533 minus the unknown drain
5 hits would make the DX 308,410 minus the unknown drain
7 hits would make the DX 182,857 minus the unknown drain

400,533 - 357,121 = 43,412 or 10853 per hit (9.4 per X)
308,410 - 260,174 = 48,236 or 9647 per hit (8.4 per X)
182,857 - 128,439 = 54,418 or 7774 per hit (6.8 per X)

In both cases the non percentage factor goes down, which isn't possible if it is a non percentage factor. So I will conduct some more calculations (with a lower % and a higher non % factor) to see if I can get a better fit.


But for some estimation, 1% per X50 and 15 raw points per X could be a good estimate though (or at least I tend to think)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 1 2006 12:02 PM EDT

The extra drain used to be damage that no longer the case?

AdminShade September 1 2006 12:13 PM EDT

It never was damage done afaik... where do you get that idea from?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 1 2006 11:15 PM EDT


Zoglog[T] [big bucks] September 2 2006 9:00 AM EDT

even in CB1 there wasn't anything about damage done, you may be thinking of the fact that it only drained if the attack did damage which is why having a minion with lots of dex and PTH but little or no STR wouldn't work for an axbow user.

AdminShade September 2 2006 9:56 AM EDT

Indeed, how else can you explain that you deal very different amounts of damage (i did 50k as well as 75k average in the tests) and still drain the same amount of DX.

This same was also in cb1, to the extent that if you don't deal damage, you don't drain. but if you do deal damage, you always drain the same based on the stats of the Axbow

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2006 1:51 PM EDT

I'll try and find some documentation for my crazy theory, but that is how I understood things to have worked. Glad to have someone correct me on this now, before I went and did something silly like use belegs on a axbow user...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2006 2:06 PM EDT

here's one thread, and this one seems to imply that your figures don't work all the way out.

AdminShade September 2 2006 2:58 PM EDT

My figures might not work perfectly but as I said, it's an estimate.

Also in those threads there hasn't been talks about damage dealt being an influence on DX/ST drained.

I have tested this thourougly and that's not a factor.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2006 3:00 PM EDT

Do I have to point at it for you shade, Vaynard talks about it in the first thread.

AdminShade September 2 2006 3:05 PM EDT

So you point to this?

"With some testing, I've found out a little. It's hard to reproduce that battle, since I don't seem to get that many battles where I hit him 4 times. Anyway, of the 3 times that has happened recently, 1 time he was more clumsy all 4 times, and in two of the battles he had lost all his DX by shot 4. So it must be either be right on the line, or perhaps the DX drain is random.

My theory, bad as it may be, and based off one glance, is that not only does the axbow drain dx equal to 1/4 the x, but at the same time drains dx equal to damage dealt. Before or after armors or reduction, IDK, just a guess. It probably just worked out that way for the one battle I was examining, but it's my hypothesis nonetheless.

If people could help me by attacking my team, and then posting here with your DX before, after, and how many times and how much you got shot in ranged, that would be great. Any volunteers? I wanna see just how effective an axbow really is."

He says himself that the battle was hard to reproduce, how does it come to be that my battle with G_Beee's character was so _very_ reproducible. He has fought 5 times making me do 2 hits, 5 times making me do 3 hits. _all_ of them had different damages deals and exactly the same DX drained of him, how would you explain that if Axbows drained random amounts?

Also he says it to be an idea and not cold hard truth...

In another light, fight me a number of times and check what DX drain I do to you with my Axbow.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2006 3:21 PM EDT

I'm not saying I'm right, just pointing to a possible source for my error.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 2 2006 3:27 PM EDT

After fighting you I can completely see what you're saying, regardless of damage done you drain the same amount per hit every time. Slightly off topic, but our fights are a great example of how bad the named ammo bug is. I do almost double the damage with a x101 named ax as you do with your much larger (also named) bow. How much am I draining a hit? I'd like to know if ammo x applies to drain as well...
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