Ammo changes (in Changelog)


AdminJonathan September 2 2006 11:36 PM EDT

Ammo is upgradeable now.

Ammo + is about 3x as effective as bow +.

Ammo x increases damage by about 1% per x.

AoI now confuses seekers and the xbows too.

QBOddBird September 2 2006 11:37 PM EDT

Awesome.

Miandrital September 2 2006 11:37 PM EDT

"AoI now confuses seekers and the xbows too."

ranger will be proud :P

[CB1]-Kratos(X.x) September 2 2006 11:37 PM EDT

yipee...seems like fun ^_^

QBRanger September 2 2006 11:38 PM EDT

Ranger is smiling.

Reignmaker [Battle Royale] September 2 2006 11:54 PM EDT

So... does the upgrade only last until the ammo runs out? Or is there a [+ammo] stat that covers all the ammo you buy?

Dudster4 September 2 2006 11:57 PM EDT

/me sit's back and smiles :)

Mikel September 3 2006 12:01 AM EDT

What is the point in specialty items if they won't work?

Sir Leon [Soup Ream] September 3 2006 12:01 AM EDT

Great change for the fighters.


/me waits for a change that benefits econ clans and/or forgers.

Tylan September 3 2006 1:01 AM EDT

Opvines: you can merge you ammo together now using the 2nd option.....expensive in large amounts through...

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] September 3 2006 1:47 AM EDT

Overall some very nice changes, great work Jon! Although I must inquire and attempt to show my own reasoning as to why I see the xbow change is unjustified.

AoI is all about making the wearer invisible, yes. It makes sense a guy full of lust for blood would skip the guy that he can't see. And it makes sense that mages, with their magical talents, can still target the invisible guy first. However, why can't an assassin or skilled enforcer find their target? I would assume both are expert trackers and possess strong senses- strong enough that them and their xbows can still attack the invisible guy that's running around screaming battle cries as he hacks at enemies. For realism sake, shouldn't they be able to hit that sword swinging maniac?

On to a better reason than minor realism in an imaginary game, why not balance issues? CB is about choices. Tank or mage to deal damage. Okay, mage, you have FB, MM, CoC, or Decay. Tank, you can focus ranged, melee, or both. Okay, wanna go both, do you want ranged xbow or Elbow? This change just shuts off xbows. Their whole advantage is drastically less damage for a little drainage. And every little bit helps. When any tank can go invisible for a minimal cost (700k?), having any amount of NW in an xbow is now pointless. Their whole point is to slightly weaken the enemy tank. You don't hit the tank anymore, well, you might as well just remove xbows from the game.

Also, I could see people comparing the xbow part to the seeker part, and say that it is only fair that both change. Not so, large differences exist. First, seekers only are effective on Elbows, which are the damage dealers. Letting your damage dealer kill theirs at the very start of the match is easily seen as an overpowered advantage. But xbows sacrifice the quick kill and raw damage power in order to hopefully win in the long run through a slight stat advantage- which is a much more easily countered and less powerful strategy. Next, seekers amplify the already powerful elbow, xbows need their ability to stay usable. Also, mages are weak to physical damage, while xbows target tanks that are very large, tough, hard to hit enemies.

In summary, I do like all but one of the changes. But xbows are not a problem and as they were implemented would not become one. But changing it so their special ability is turned off by another item special ability renders them a pointless threat. Thank you for listening, have a good day.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] September 3 2006 1:52 AM EDT

Sorry for the double post, but I believe I found a minor bug. When fighting Elros, owned by DrAcO5676. He has a two minion team, and is ET. Both have AoI. And although his tank has far more DX, my Axbow only goes after the front enchanter. This does not seem right, if both enemies are last in the attack order, shouldn't the xbow start working again?

GnuUzir September 3 2006 2:40 AM EDT

Hurrah there might finally be a reason to upgrade ammo ;-)

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] September 3 2006 3:00 AM EDT

Vaynard I'm not sure how it should work versus 2 AoI however it would make no difference as the AoI stops the drain from working even when you can hit an AoI minion. I'm wondering if this is how it is intended to work or should it just prevent the AoI minion from being hit by the AX/EX but let it take the drain if it is the only minion remaining.
I agree with your earlier post too, I think its a bit much, the stat draining bow has become somewhat useless again with this change (However it is supposed to work)

PoisoN September 3 2006 4:25 AM EDT

Mikel:
All the DD familiars are now the top priority target, with no AC and AoI they are simply just cannon fodder for seekers. At least I don't have an Ice familiar. ;-)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 3 2006 4:41 AM EDT

there is choice, some folks can't use an AoI...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 3 2006 4:55 AM EDT

wait, so what in tarnation for naming do for ammo? Increase damage 150%?

QBRanger September 3 2006 4:59 AM EDT

'Ammo x increases damage by about 1% per x.'

So by my calculations using the most advanced computers from Japan, the same computers that beat Kasparov in chess:

150 (bonus for naming) x 1% is 150% more damage!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 3 2006 5:01 AM EDT

I'll eat my hat if that's the case, I'm betting Jon set it to the proper 3% increase in damage...

QBJohnnywas September 3 2006 5:01 AM EDT

My ranged attack has lowered overnight, by about 20%. I'm confused.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 3 2006 5:02 AM EDT

You named ammo isn't bugged any more, same here...

QBJohnnywas September 3 2006 5:06 AM EDT

Ah I see the other posts now. I want my damage back!! Lol!

AdminShade September 3 2006 7:17 AM EDT

nice, finally no more questions about upgrading ammo :p

AdminJonathan September 3 2006 10:00 AM EDT

naming gives x3 to ammo, forgot to mention that. :)

QBJohnnywas September 3 2006 10:07 AM EDT

Aha, that clears that one up. Thanks. :)

WeaponX September 3 2006 10:09 AM EDT

paving the way for IA's?

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] September 3 2006 11:21 AM EDT

I like the other changes, but what good is an Ex/Axbow now? Damage isn't that great, and now teams that have an AoI on their tank are spanking me because I don't get a big dex bonus anymore from the drain. That makes the low damage pointless IMO

I thought it was Elbow for damage and Xbow for drain, but with an easy counter like an AoI this is no longer the case.

QBOddBird September 3 2006 11:22 AM EDT

I agree with Vaynard....it doesn't make much sense, but then, I suppose this game isn't exactly designed to be realistic....=P

Still, this makes the xbows and seekers useless up higher against everyone but the single tanks/single mages. Sad. ='(

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] September 3 2006 11:32 AM EDT

Ax bows don't drain versus single minions with AoI

QBOddBird September 3 2006 1:02 PM EDT

OK, so they are *completely* useless, then. =(

AdminNightStrike September 3 2006 2:02 PM EDT

So, basically, every minion should be wearing an AoI..... and thus their value just skyrocketed.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 3 2006 3:54 PM EDT

Nightstrike: how is that any different from the other supporter items...

AdminJonathan September 3 2006 4:08 PM EDT

"Ax bows don't drain versus single minions with AoI"

wrong

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 3 2006 4:14 PM EDT

ARG....that was the best part...

AdminShade September 3 2006 4:19 PM EDT

Axbows and Exbows need to drain something, if it isn't from a AoI protected tank, or from a PL protected one, then it is from the mages :p

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 3 2006 4:22 PM EDT

So I can verify that single minion teams wearing an AoI still get hit with drain...
and that I'm no longer a valid target for them wearing an AoI on a multi minion team...
Repair Hammer hit Rand al'Thor with An Ugly Tree [75376]
Rand al'Thor looks clumsier!

Rand al'Thor hit Tongs with Balefire [77381]
Tongs looks clumsier!
Tongs's Guardian Angel smote Rand al'Thor (38212)
Rand al'Thor shot Tongs with Balefire [71228]
Tongs's Guardian Angel smote Rand al'Thor (36913)
 
Repair Hammer shot Rand al'Thor with An Ugly Tree [68700]
Rand al'Thor looks clumsier!

Rand al'Thor shot Spellcaster with Balefire [72645]
Spellcaster looks clumsier!
Spellcaster's Guardian Angel smote Rand al'Thor (38076)
Rand al'Thor shot Spellcaster with Balefire [50922]
Spellcaster's Guardian Angel smote Rand al'Thor (26320)
Rand al'Thor shot Spellcaster with Balefire [52760]
Spellcaster's Guardian Angel smote Rand al'Thor (27369)

QBBarzooMonkey September 3 2006 4:25 PM EDT

Hurray for invisible minions! :)

chiuna September 3 2006 6:02 PM EDT

$50 sent to Trillian after adjusting value of your Arrow.
$3,922 sent to Trillian after deleting your Arrow; it ended up with negative damage after adjusting how ammo damage works. Sorry 'bout that.

I don't understand -- why would the system adjust my arrow to negative damage?

AdminNightStrike September 3 2006 8:20 PM EDT

"Nightstrike: how is that any different from the other supporter items..."

The Jig and RoE aren't seeing skyrocketing value. VB and MgS are. Not sure about the TSA.

And, as a note, my post wasn't a complaint, but more a musing that I shouldn't sell my AoI as I initially planned.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 3 2006 8:31 PM EDT

I'll give you the ToJ, it's now the ugly stepchild of the supporter item family, it would have to completely make tanks useless to achieve what it's siblings do. The RoE is on the list of things you'd have a tough time buying, and it's price has always gone up, it's invaluable for building an NCB or NUB char, and leveling up an already upped tat. The TSA is as much a required part of any real strat as a corn or tattoo at this point, it's almost silly not to have an MgS/TSA wall sitting in the fourth minion slot.

Underage Drinking September 3 2006 10:40 PM EDT

From: system Sent: September 2 2006 10:35 PM EDT
$81,913 sent to blackmage after deleting your Slayer Arrow; it ended up with negative damage after adjusting how ammo damage works. Sorry 'bout that.

From: system Sent: September 2 2006 10:30 PM EDT
$2 sent to Hell Spawns after adjusting value of your Arrow. Hit Update Stats on yourself if you don't see the money yet. Really, it's there; don't make yourself look like an idiot by posting that it's not.
From: system Sent: September 2 2006 10:30 PM EDT
$426 sent to blackmage after adjusting value of your Slayer Arrow. Hit Update Stats on yourself if you don't see the money yet. Really, it's there; don't make yourself look like an idiot by posting that it's not.


so if ammo was changed why should i have lost the single slayer i had, i would like my singler slayer arrow back please

Lumpy Koala September 3 2006 10:45 PM EDT

Well.. I think another vital change should be in to make everything sounds right. This way, at least axbow/exbow can still do something for 1 round, rather than keep shooting a wall with 20 dex/str.

If the minion do not have any dex/str to drain anymore after first shot, next xbows shots should seek the next highest dex/str victim even if AOI is equipped.

AdminJonathan September 3 2006 11:13 PM EDT

"i would like my singler slayer arrow back please"

i would like a puppy

Sir Woot September 3 2006 11:16 PM EDT

and what kind of puppy would you like Jon?

QBsutekh137 September 3 2006 11:18 PM EDT

/me gives Jonathan a puppy.

ToJs have always been neglected. They were the first. Doesn't everyone know that the eldest always get the shaft? Like old people...I kick them in the arthritic knees every chance I get. They fall over so easily, it's funny to watch.

/me is a youngest child.

Lumpy Koala September 4 2006 1:38 AM EDT

LOL sooner or later, people want TOJ to have innate Invisibility :D Like how it has innate Endurance, UC, STR, DEX and HP.... (long list)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 4 2006 1:46 AM EDT

Invisibility would be a serious blow to the ToJ, it's primarily a dancing meat shield at this point...

Colonel Custard September 4 2006 2:00 PM EDT

I just upgraded my bolts from x1 to x2, which resulted in about a 20-25% damage loss. I demand my 40 thousand dollars back. Or just a bug fix.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 4 2006 2:08 PM EDT

whew...I was wondering about that...

Karmic Mishap [Soup Ream] September 4 2006 4:28 PM EDT

I agree with NK. If the specialty bow has finished 'doing its job' draining somebody ST/DX, then that minion should be bypassed by the bow's seeking, even if there is an AoI involved.

Frod September 5 2006 1:13 AM EDT

so if ammo was changed why should i have lost the single slayer i had, i would like my singler slayer arrow back please

So you had a "rilly big" single slayer that landed outside the formula for scaling the new arrows. Oh, well.

If it makes you feel any better, mine was worth $170K.

miteke [Superheros] September 5 2006 9:06 AM EDT

I agree with the previous posters. Making an AoI negate seekers and specialty xbows renders them obsolete (the seekers and xbows of course). It was already hard enough to get a specialty xbow to work with PLs so rampant. To get it to work well you have to sink about 10M into it, and once it starts to work your opponents will take notice and equip a 1M AoI and totally negate it.

I like the other ammo changes though.

miteke [Superheros] September 5 2006 9:12 AM EDT

Hmm. $8 to upgrade a single unit of ammo to a x2 seems a bit excessive to me (I'm assuming arrows are similar to bolts in price). Remember that these things are gone once you use them! Basically this means that given 1000 BAs per day, 4 ammo per BA = 4000 ammo per day. To get a lousy 1% increase per day will cost you 32K per day.

Or!

You could just spend the 32K on the weapon and get x4 for your money each day.

Anyone think the prices are reasonable? I'd love to hear the reasoning.

Maelstrom September 5 2006 9:30 AM EDT

4 ammo per BA? Maybe for an xbow. I typically use 9 arrows per BA...

QBJohnnywas September 5 2006 9:33 AM EDT

I was just going to say something along those lines Mael. A decent archer will hit for triples for three rounds of ranged. Some of the bigger bows hit for quad strikes or more....

I've never thought upgrading ammo was worthwhile. Even using specialty ammo could be seen as foolish, if all you want is extra damage. Still it's a cash sink/stupidity tax. You don't_have_to updgrade it.......

Maelstrom September 5 2006 9:41 AM EDT

Upgrading the + on ammo doesn't seem too expensive, especially compared to the cost of upgrading the + of bows. On the other hand, upgrading the x on bows is relatively cheaper with the new system, so upgrading the x on ammo isn't really necessary.

bartjan September 5 2006 9:43 AM EDT

If you already have x1000 on your bow, then each x1 on ammo is equivalent to x10 on the bow...

QBJohnnywas September 5 2006 9:45 AM EDT

But you have to keep paying to maintain that damage. Whereas the bow upgrade you only pay for once.


Maelstrom September 5 2006 9:46 AM EDT

Good point. But is it as cost effective?

QBRanger September 5 2006 10:05 AM EDT

Well each x1 on an elb is 7.8k.

So x100 is only 780,000.

If ammo costs about 50k a day, your looking at the equal point at about 15.6 days.

I would say that upping the x on the elb is more than better than upping ammo.

QBJohnnywas September 5 2006 10:10 AM EDT

Look at this way - if you upgrade the bow you OWN the damage, whereas if you're upgrading ammo you're renting damage.....

Colonel Custard September 6 2006 1:22 AM EDT

Well-said Johnnywas. And there's the still unaddressed issue of the fact that i spent 40k upgrading 5000 ammo or so by one X, and it lowered my ranged damage by around 20%. I can get almost 5 Xs on my Axbow for that. If the bug doesn't get fixed, can I at least get store credit with the Blacksmith or something?

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] September 6 2006 7:05 AM EDT

but what about when the bow/xbow gets to x10000 and above, the 1% extra on the ammo may begin to look much more economical for extra damage output.

Recovering BA Addict September 6 2006 11:20 AM EDT

While the inability for seekers to hit an AoI mage first has drastically weakened my strategy, I think it is a quality change. My strategy purposely had extremely weak DD defense because any team with a high level DD caster would lose their largest damage potential after the first round (or in Ranger's case, the third round). This allowed me to place my ToA tank in the back row with an AoM, since he would only receive one MM attack, which was absorbed by PL. The change has forced me to switch back to an AoI on my tank, but I think it is good for the tank/mage balance of the game. Anyways, I will be rearranging my strategy at some point, but I just don't have the MPR to implement what I want yet.

Keep the changes coming, I'm looking forward to it :)

Colonel Custard September 6 2006 11:48 PM EDT

I'd just like to add my name to the list of people who think this severely limits the usefulness of ex/axbows, and compromises the only real reason to use them. I don't really have any reasons to add to the ones already stated, but I'd just like to say that I agree with previous posters on this topic.

Then again, this increases the strategic value of owning an AoI, so I suppose Jon wants that so that all existing supporters end up buying one so that he can continue to make enough money off of this to keep the game running. Clever.

QBRanger September 7 2006 8:38 AM EDT

Actually the AOI was very useful before this change and IMO the changes have nothing to do with Jon wanting people to buy them.

The seeker change was needed for balance especially with the recent shift of the game towards tanks.

However, I do agree that the axbow/exbow change again makes these weapons near useless.

miteke [Superheros] September 7 2006 11:28 AM EDT

I wouldn't mind a balance shift, but making seekers not seek is just plain counter productive. What mage team is NOT going to put an AoI on it (unless single minion of course) and simply neutralize every dan seeker out there.

Now, on the other hand, if the AoI were changed so that its evasion success were based on a level system, then THAT would be fine. Something that would make a 50% chance at evasion is achievable, 75% dang expensive, and 100% impossible.

I was thinking along the lines of giving a 10% chance at evasion per level but not cumulative. i.e. at 5th level the opponent would have a .9 x .9 x .9 x .9 x .9 = 59% chance to 'see' the minion and hit normally. What is that called - exponential or logarithmic or something else?

AdminNightStrike September 7 2006 3:13 PM EDT

Mage teams where the familiar is the sole damage dealer........
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