Vorpal Blade (in Changelog)

Base damage from 75 to 51 (actual combat damage reduction: about 40%)

vorpal-ness (effect on ac and other damage mitigation) increased from 40% to 50%

Ouch... bah!

Ah great, put my trust in the item from the very beginning and now I'm looking at going back to finding a BTh *sigh*

Boo! BoooO! I propose MH be nerfed too! Make it a 3-handed weapon!

Nerfed it real good, nerf it real good.
The damage now is really really low, i propose nerf the Vorpal-ness of the thing not the base damage.

from 40% to 25% then it should be better inline. Now the damage done by this thing on normal none AC wearing minions is really crappy.

I don't think a damage reduction is outrageous. I just don't think it should be reduced that much. How about like.. uh.. compromise? 63 base damage? And 40% vorpal ability?

Just when I was thinking about selling mine...lol.....


(Does this make the ELS a bit more useful now in the 1 hander weapon stakes?)

nerf all melee weapons to dust :D

ouch, the damage reduction is huge :P

next up in nerf batting practice:
PTH on the TOA
Elven Long Bow
AoI
ROE
and all other 'must haves' in the CB world....

CoC should be safe though!

I'm... saddened by this. So little love for so long, and then a complete destruction of it. It's worthless now.

Wow,

Interesting.

Ahahahahahaha! Nice! I can honestly say I didn't see that coming. So glad I'm not a VB user!

As a VB user, I approve. ;)

You'll get near pre 'nerf' damage only when facing high AC opponents, which is the way it should be. :)

I agree.

However this is how the VB should have been since the beginning.

If my math is correct, then the VB is nerfed against opponents with less than 190AC, but is actually better against those with more than 190AC. And that's with only looking at AC...

I use a VB, but I still think this is a great change, it will hopefully balance out MH/BoNE and VB damage.

It doesn't balance it out. The VB was the only viable 1H weapon to use, but it is now more practical to use the other 1H weapons. The MH is still the only viable 2H weapon to use, hence why I believe it should be nerfed.

after that the BoNE will be the only weapon and that should be nerfed after that, then the ELS BoTH and the katana are up for scrap.

Who says the MH is the only viable 2H weapon to use? That's purely opinion, stop saying it like it is a fact.

OB,

Almost all people who fight will certainly say the MH is the only 2H weapon to use.

What are the others to compare to?

Exec?
Bone?

Perhaps the Bone does more damage, however again I will say it, who cares when your doing enough damage to overkill a minion 3 times over.

Stop saying that? I've said it a total of.. 1 times.

Bone of Contention [92x4281] (+128) worth $61,869,052 owned by The End of Days (The End of Days)

The top BoNE is 61m NW. The top MH is 3 times that. And the second MH is more than 2 times that. And the third. And the fourth. But the second top BoNE is almost half the NW of the top one. It seems that other people share my "opinion". :P

It is nonetheless not a fact.

The MH is simply a weaker bone with inherent VA. What makes it better?

And if the damage isn't an issue, Dr. Popsicle, why isn't the BoTH the weapon of choice? It is, after all, 1-handed and thus has a better CTH advantage.

Just because it is a popular opinion *STILL* does not make it a fact.

Impulse, the 'stop saying that' wasn't so much addressed to your statement in particular as to everyone who gives an opinion as though it were absolute factual truth.

The problem with proclaiming a 'shared' opinion like it is a fact means that people decide to take it as a fact. So people only use certain weapons; people only use certain strategies; people come to think that something is overpowered or underpowered.

The shared opinion on UC for instance was that it was rubbish. And it was so far from being rubbish that it was funny when suddenly threads started appearing about how overpowered it was about a year or so ago.


Somebody will start using the BoNE in a way that makes everyone go ....WHOAH.... it will happen. Now with this VB change it's only a matter of time before the BoNE, ELS and BoTh get taken out of the cupboard and get dusted off ready for battle...

Ouch the VB got totally nerfed, it's like pointless now :x

Since the weapon received such a tremendous blow to base damage, how about a NW compensation. My VB is now 40% weaker damage wise, but the same NW. That doesn't make any sense.

"Somebody will start using the BoNE in a way that makes everyone go ....WHOAH.... it will happen. Now with this VB change it's only a matter of time before the BoNE, ELS and BoTh get taken out of the cupboard and get dusted off ready for battle..."

I doubt it. It'll make everyone use MHs instead.

They have to buy them first. ;)

"Perhaps the Bone does more damage, however again I will say it, who cares when your doing enough damage to overkill a minion 3 times over."

A point that only matters when NW is not an issue. If NW is an issue for you, then the BoNE might be the optimal choice. Especially if it means the difference between gaining some HP versus killing off the opponents biggest damage dealer.

The MH may be the only logical choice for those with deep pockets, but it doesn't make it the only logical choice period. You have to keep in mind PM that, by buying CB money with USD, you are not actually playing that same game that everyone else is playing. The rules are slightly different at your end of the field. Therefore, what is and is not fact differs between the many members of CB.

Did you ever think of why the top Bone is 63M and there are at least 5 MH's almost double that NW?

It is because the players that make uber weapons know which weapon is the one to use.

If the Bone was better then the MH, do you not think someone would have made a 100M NW Bone.

As I stated numerous times, who cares if you do 4M or 3M damage to a minion, s/he is still quite dead. So take the inate VA of the MH as the difference maker.

"Damage absorbed by the minion training PL will not count towards damage an attacker's VA/MH/BoTH uses to calculate life drain." -wiki

Against teams with large PL's, a MH is no better than a BoNE. Since most teams these days sport some PL, I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say that the BoNE is again a viable option for a 2h weapon.

Yes, PL nerfs the inate VA of the MH.

However, when the PL minion dies, the VA starts right back up.

Such is exactly what happens in my battles with Freed (End of Days). After I finally get through his 425 AC wall backed by PL, I start leeching 100's of thousands of HP. And a few times this is what lets me win those battles.

Considering the damage done by the MH is not trivial why not use the MH for those times you can get the inate VA to work.

"Did you ever think of why the top Bone is 63M and there are at least 5 MH's almost double that NW?

It is because the players that make uber weapons know which weapon is the one to use. "


Geez. My apologies, I forgot that the guys with the cash are obviously also the most strategically inclined.

Perhaps if you get through his wall backed by PL that much quicker because you are using a weapon that does more damage, there might not be any need for the HP leech?

"The MH may be the only logical choice for those with deep pockets, but it doesn't make it the only logical choice period. You have to keep in mind PM that, by buying CB money with USD, you are not actually playing that same game that everyone else is playing. The rules are slightly different at your end of the field. Therefore, what is and is not fact differs between the many members of CB."

I do indeed see your point Vestax, however misguided it is. Even at lower levels, the MH with its inate VA is just too powerful to not use given a choice between it and the Bone. This is especially true if your using a TOA which boosts your strength and gives essentially another attack.

If there did not exist DM, then perhaps a Bone would be comparable. However, with a large number of players using DM to nerf potential VA's, the inate VA of the MH is well worth the slightly less damage.

You may be right OB, if i could get through the wall faster I may not need the VA.

However vs mages I certainly do need the VA, especially vs Hubbell.

However, I never said those with USD are the most strategically inclined. I was stating a fact that those who can make the uber weapons all chose MH's.

Perhaps then all those with USD are foolish and do not have any strategy inclination? Maybe we all are just foolishly throwing our money away on the MH when we should all be using a Bone?

All I personally know is that when I was playing TAB, I used a Bone and MH about the same NW and the MH was by far the better weapon for my TOA tank to equip. It is only my experience with those weapons, in the lower stages of the game and that is why I decided to upgrade my MH and not use a Bone.

All the USD spenders cannot be wrong, can we?

“who cares if you do 4M or 3M damage to a minion “

PM, you continue to display a logic that is of no consequence to most of CB. You talk exclusively within the range of the top ten. You speak about millions of points of damage. These are not relevant points to the majority of us.

“Even at lower levels, the MH with its inate VA is just too powerful to not use given a choice between it and the Bone.”

A BoNE allows for more damage. That damage is important in killing larger minions earlier in the game. Doing that gets you more xp. More xp means you have a better chance of making it to the top. The BoNE is particularly more effective versus a single minion team then the MH. Single minion teams are in fact a rarity in the top ten, but a fact of life when making your way up.

I was adjusting nw for Glory and borked the VB enchantments all up. Fixing...

That doesn't make any sense. If you adjust the NW like Glory asks, then nothing changes about the VB, except that the AC penetration becomes 50% rather then 40%. A 5 mil VB would still do the same damage that an old 5 mill VB would do to an unarmored minion.

Fixed.

(Don't worry, I wasn't adjusting "like Glory asked," I was just fixing the upgrade costs retroactively to align with the lower base damage.)

Ah, got it. In the other direction then.

Vestax,

Please read my entire post and if you quote some of it, quote it all.

I have used the Bone and MH at the lower levels when I was climbing with TAB.

The MH with its inate VA was far more effective. Even vs single minions the MH was far more effective.

However, if you want to spend your CB2 on a Bone, please do, pretty please do. Then there will be less good weapons to compete with at the top when/if you get there.

so... 954 AC is the magic number?

Can somebody explain what just happened to my VB to me? I'm having trouble understanding gaining cash, losing X and + off my VB, and having higher upgrade costs (at least for the X).

Maybe I'm just slow... :/

The upgrade costs were changed for the Vorpal, adjusted for the lower base damage.
All existing Vorpals are adjusted; CB tries to keep the NW as close to the former NW and any cash sent to you is because of rounding errors. Usually a Chatmail message explaining this is sent when something like this happens.

So basically.. the VB has lower damage AND has higher upgrade costs. A super nerf! You're paying more for less damage.

For example, I just got 8 chatmails from system ;)

I'll also want to repeat what I said before in this thread: this is not in all situations a Vorpal nerf. Against strong walls and tanks, the new VB should do even better than it did before (assuming the X is the same...)

Yes, I see the CM telling me that I gained two hundred-some-odd thousand. One of the things I'm not understanding is why upgrades had to be taken off my VB, then given to me as cash. :P

And why the higher upgrade costs? That just makes the bigger (and cheaper) weapons even better when upgraded more. Which makes the VB really only of any use on teams full of AC...

Not really... The extra 10% vorpal ability doesn't make up for the REALLY BIG base damage nerf. Not to mention you're going to be paying more too. So I stick by what I said earlier, "You're paying more for less damage."

Impulse, I did the math. The break-even point is at only 190AC. Any wall with fewer AC than that should be referred to as 'threshold', not 'wall'.

So you're saying against anything with more than 190 AC, I'm doing more damage than I would have before the nerf?

I skimmed the thread, and didn't see much of anyone supporting this, so I thought I would post. I like the change. I feel sorry for everyone that wrapped up millions of dollars into their supporter item, but seriously. One handed damage, same damage and upgrades (or at least very close) to the bottom of the Big 4 melee weapons, and cut through any wall? It was overpowered.

Now it appears that the VB is the way it was intended to be. It was not supposed to be the 5th addition to the main melee weapons of the game, but a specialized tool to cut through walls. Which it does better now. Good fix.

I did make some errors in my math, I used a 60% AC reduction for the old VB instead of a 40% AC reduction and (more important) forgot a zero in the AC formula (0.021 instead of 0.0021). So here's the new math:

The relevant parts of the damage equation are:
Old VB: Damage = BaseDamage * ( 1 - 0.0021 * 0.60 * AC )
New VB: Damage = 0.60 * BaseDamage * (1 - 0.0021 * 0.50 * AC )

Here BaseDamage is the damage the old VB would have done against a naked minion. It depends on things like ST. How much ST is irrelevant, as it is constant between the old and new VB, just like anything else that may affect the damage.

Now let's calculate the AC for which the damage is the same:

BaseDamage * ( 1 - 0.0021 * 0.60 * AC ) = 0.60 * BaseDamage * ( 1 - 0.0021 * 0.50 * AC )
this becomes:
1 - 0.0021 * 0.60 * AC = 0.60 - 0.0021 * 0.30 * AC
which gives:
0.40 = 0.0021 * 0.30 * AC
At this moment, I reach for my calculator, which claims that AC=635.
So it indeed is a nerf, for all practical values of AC.

Sweet. I knew something was wrong with the math, it didn't seem right, but I didn't question it because I'm mathematically retarded. Now all we have to do is wait for someone to get to 635 AC before the VB does as much damage as it would have before. Nice. *stabs himself in the face*

After a quick read of this thread (as in, I read about 3 posts and ignored the rest), here are my thoughts:

The best weapon in the game is the MH.
There is no comparison.

HP drain vs a little extra damage of the BoNE.
People make the argument that additional damage can prevent an opponent from getting an extra round of attack, turning draws into wins and losses into draws. Ever think that MH does just that? Lets you keep swinging that dirty big hammer for another round and that's where it really is beyond comparison.

VB is the only one I can see coming close. It is one of those tricky weapons, use it in the right situation and it'll do great. Don't and it'll be wimpy.

I don't see this change as a nerf at all, instead I think it forces people to use the VB only for what it was designed to do, killing walls and heavy tanks. In it's ideal situation it's the best, but in every other situation, make sure you've got a MH handy.

Just my 3 cents.

My guess for the future:

The VB is now ruined except to use in certain situations. Prices will drop to below the top 4 weapons.

However unless your fight list is composed of ALL TOE/heavy AC characters, the VB is not that viable anymore. Vs low AC minions and mages, the damage you will now do with it is not enough to keep you alive.

So basically it went from an overpowering weapon to one that is not that useful except as a nitch weapon.

While I do agree the base damage needed to be nerfed from 75, making it 51 and a 40% decrease in armor/AC/TOE is far too much.

Yes, I said it was a good change above, but after using my new improved VB, the nerf is far too much. Now I do a relative pittance of damage to low AC minions and non TOE characters.

Let us take Freed's character as an example. After I get through his Wall, I do hardly any damage to his other minions compared to the other weapons I can use. When I fight Sut and NWO, my damage is barely enough with 2.4M strength to win the battle.

So balance needed to be made, but I think the pendulum went a bit too far in nerfing that weapon.

I think the base damage needed to be lowered to 66 with the same 40% vorpal ability. Or lower the vorpal ability to 33% with a base of 66. Just to keep the VB as a weapon that could be used in all situations.

And yes, I knew there would be a nerf of the VB in the future but still spend a lot of CB2 on mine. Why? We went for months upon months without a change in the VB even though people were still posting how powerful it was. Now it seems we went too far in nerfing it.

Now, if one could switch weapons in battle depending on what minion your fighting, that would be outstanding and a welcome change.

Perhaps a new skill that lets tanks do it, sort of a buff if you do not use the archery skill.

Wow, I knew the effectiveness of my VB was down but after some more fights earlier and from barts calculations, my VB is now as useful as a thf or exec/katana at best.
I know 3mill NW isn't a lot but I'd expect to be doing near enough the same sort of damage as the 4.2mill axbow I'm renting.
Having looked over some of the figures my JKF actually does more damage in melee than my VB.
Kano-san beat -***The Superhero***- [54841]
Kano-san crunched -***The Superhero***- [31966]
Elrond sliced into -***The Superhero***- [19336]
Elrond's vorpal blade went snicker-snack! [30329]

Obviously those are figures from only one fight and the target only has 12 AC but it seems that the target would need a minimum of 100AC (pure guesswork on my part) for my VB to even start equalling my JKF which seems a little wrong to me.

Yes, I agree with PM. A little damage nerf wouldn't be too significant, but now the VB just went down the toilet. Also, what happens now to the MH? It's the general consensus that it's now the most powerful weapon in the game. Will it nerfed as well?

these type of changes should be made gradually. not so much with PM (hes big enough to cope) but other chars using and in some cases building their chars around a weapon should not have this muck thrown at them.

The AC point at which the new VB does more damage than the BNE is 371.

Also, I think PM's argument in favor of the MH's superiority is bogus. If you're doing far more damage than you need to kill someone, you overspent on your weapon. And if you're not (which is the case for most non-USD spenders), then doing more damage in exchange for no regen can be a fine tradeoff.

I perhaps should have done my research earlier. The damage reduction appears to be a bit much.

About the only people I can see having a need for this are the tanks in the top ten. They're the only ones likely to find this particularly useful and once it's not even doing that for them, it becomes a much less useful weapon.

I can only assume this was intentional, so I'll also assume that VB is just there for when a character like Freed's does become immune to physical damage, there is an option but a very poor one.

Bad news for all the people who use/own a VB but not something I'll disagree with.

(And the AC at which the VB does more damage than the ELS is 350.)

Months and months of people saying the VB was overpowered; we finally get a nerf and suddenly it's too much.

So you're out of pocket after investing in a weapon that everybody knew was going to get hit at some point? That's (CB) life. So you've been building a strat around it? Adapt. Change. Rebuild.

Nothing is guaranteed here. Not investment, not strategy. But that's how it's always been.

I may not always like the changes you've made Jon, but I hope you never stop making them. It's what keeps things interesting. ;)

So this means the VB lost all of its usefulness in the low mpr ranges?
Ive seen no one below 50k mpr who was sporting over 350 AC LS

I'm glowing...

Also guys and girls, don't forget the Endurance *and* Protection is also lowered, so it's not just 350 AC for break even. ;)

Jon,

In the beginnings of the game where CB2 cost upwards of 20 bucks a million and money actually did matter, the MH was far better to use then the Bone.

i would gladly have given up the extra damage of the Bone for the Certain leech of the MH.

Now if DM was not an option, the Bone would likely be a better option, like in CB1.

But things are very very different in cb2.

Also, consider the AC point of the VB vs ELS or Bone.

The VB costs about 30% more to upgrade now then the top 4 weapons. One certainly has to figure that in the calculations of where the VB damage point vs a Bone or ELS is. IE, a x5000 on an ELS will be only like x3700 or something like that for the VB. So at 350 AC, is the same NW ELS doing the same damage as the same NW VB?

Why isn't moderation considered? Everything in the game is way too weak or way too strong. And changes are usually very harsh and very quick. Why not make huge changes like this more gradual, and more moderate?

oops, those were for the new damage and old 40% reduction

with 50% reduction those are 352 and 328 for BNE and ELS.

and no, obviously the VB isn't intended to be better than those two weapons at all levels. I'd have thought that warranted a "duh" but apparently not.

The big question is how often are you going to find CHARACTERS where a VB would be better than ELS, BoNE, BoTH, or MH.

My guess? Very few and packed nicely into the top 1% of all characters.

Or those with ToE that hit thier Max Tattoo Levels, or those with 30+ Protection effects?

vb and BoNE might equal out at 352 AC, but with what, a 30% higher nw cost than the BoNE?

Exactly,

So use the VB for the 4 characters with AC's over 350 and avoid the others, or use a MH and avoid the 4 characters with AC's over 350.

Simple choice.

Too bad one cannot switch weapons depending on what minion you are fighting. Then the VB would be a rather cool item.

"The VB costs about 30% more to upgrade now then the top 4 weapons. One certainly has to figure that in the calculations of where the VB damage point vs a Bone or ELS is. IE, a x5000 on an ELS will be only like x3700 or something like that for the VB. So at 350 AC, is the same NW ELS doing the same damage as the same NW VB?"

Isn't that only true for the damage upgrades? The PTH now is cheaper than before and that should basically balance out with the higher x upgrade costs.

There's only a handful of people with that much AC. And Jon, don't you see that you've inadvertently made AC so much stronger? With such weak damage against normal enemies, not many people will use their VBs anymore. And because of that, AC has become even stronger than before, which may be the opposite of what you were trying to do.

The numbers Jonathan and I show for various break-even points only take AC into account. VBs also half the Evasion and Endurance the opponent has.

"VBs also half the Evasion"

when did that happen?

The VB effects Evasion??????

First I have heard of that.

*points laughs and dances the snoopy dance*...

It's now a strategic choice. Use a weapon that is great versus high AC/Endurance/Protection teams, or another weapon that's great versus lesser protected teams.

Strategyy. What CB thrives on.

Not just "Pump you VB silly, 'cuz it's the best darn weapon in all situations." Which was bad.

Plus, there's always the strategic choice now to split your WA over two wepaons, and tre to fit both a VB and a MH on your team...

Sooooo, seeing as I have one of the top 10 VB's, and now it "seems" as though it has been nerfed back to the stone age, is there any chance we might be able to trade them in for a better weapon?

Come on guys, bart meant protection...

I think the stars look nice tonight. Maybe i'll take a walk in the park with the dead things

if i remember correctly, MH got a major nerf a while ago, so it better not get another one.

The MH nerf was making it 50% less likely to hit compared to 1H weapons.

But why would the MH need a nerf when so many people think the Bone is a better item?

I pray to the God I don't believe in that you guys see that PM's statement was sarcastic and that the MH SHOULD be nerfed.

Just kinda wondering, is this one of those "too-bad so-sad" moments for VB owners? Any reprieve in sight for us? It's not like the VB was created last week and we all went and spent millions of dollars on it.

apparently so... and I just finally broke down and got one in the last 2 weeks.

Well after like 5 changelogs since the VB first came out, I guess people were foolish to believe that it would stay relatively stable or perhaps suffer a little nerf.

One would also like to assume, that if after a year of an item staying the same, it would be safe from any major nerfage.

There is no safe. Not ever.

Also, PM, your posts generally come from a stance of "I want the thing that can beat everyone".

The rest of us are fighting within our score ladder, within our NW, within our MPR -- whatever poison we choose. But take a really, hard look at what you are saying. It generally comes down to: "if I have spent this much, I should beat everyone".

You're asking for weapons changing, for goodness sake -- if you don't like the weapons, switch to magic. Oh wait, here it comes" I couldn't beat EVERYONE when I used magic". Well neither can I. With the highest MPR I can't beat some folks. Fine by me. I even beat one guy I think I shouldn't be able to (freed), then I see he spent a lot on DEs. Oh well.

I know whence I speak. On CB1 I was bad, very bad. Bad at whining when I stopped winning. Saying, "waa waa. I have the best PR, I should be winning!" But I simply wasn't as good as a Tod/Spydah or an El Cid. and I am definitely not as smart as an Avoid, jayuu, Ranger, etcetera. I can't beat everyone, and that's just tough.

I am not trying to give you grief. I am asking you to look at yourself and ask one, very hard question: am I mad that the game has become imbalanced/unfun/crazy or am I mad that now it is harder to find that correct balanec that can beat everyone with my given resources? The reason I want you to ask that is so that I can see what you come up with next. Because you'll still be on top, I have every faith in that. *smile*

Suteh, PM's main weapon is his MH. And he was the one who advocated the VB nerf, although to a lesser extreme.

"Also, PM, your posts generally come from a stance of "I want the thing that can beat everyone"

Um, yeah. Don't we all want the thing that can beat everyone?

Sut,

Personally I don't care about the VB nerf. In fact, if you look at it from my point of view, I got a huge boost.

The VB was really my only weakness. An ELB archer taking out my other minions and then a VB to finish my tank.

Now that the VB is all but neutered, does that not help me quite a lot?

I feel this change, aside from the fact I had a large VB, is too much. The VB is now not that viable as a weapon to use except if you want to beat a few characters. But, tell me, who aside from 1 or 2 people can afford to have a spare VB sitting around to beat a couple characters?

I have said, for many months that the VB was overpowered, yet I owned the largest and was trying to get it less powerful. How the hell is that me saying: "t generally comes down to: "if I have spent this much, I should beat everyone". I would like to assume that once an item has been that way for a while, it might just stay close to the same for a while longer and no get disemboweled.

I know people could not care less for me, since I spend USD, but what about those that do not spend USD and use the VB. They are the ones really messed up. Take those that spend just a tad of USD, like Edyit. When he joined the VB was all that, so he made a large one. Now, it is so neutered his fightlist is almost gone and he is getting attacked much more. Is that good for the game??? How can he "adapt" when in one swoop nearly 1/2 his damage is gone??

I am a tank and I still feel seekers are a huge problem. But how does that getting them nerfed make me stronger?

C'Mon, look at the things again. Yes, it seems I ask for things to change when they are causing me problems. But also I ask for changes that can make it worse for me.

It seems people seem to only see one side, not the other.

Good change I think - it maybe useless against the majority of teams now but I always think of the VB as the weapon with the most potential to improve since AC's of teams up the top is only going to go one way, up.

Give it another six months and the number of teams where the VB is the best or close to the best weapon to use against will be higher.

"Give it another six months and the number of teams where the VB is the best or close to the best weapon to use against will be higher."

Barely. And if it will be viable in 6 months, why drop it so far now?

Really, somebody should count the number of characters who the VB will be the best against (ENTIRE characters). I dare somebody to.

Sure, AC can only go up. But it will go up slowly. While AC goes up exponentially slowly, the VB can be dropped exponentially quickly. Yay!

If 190 AC is the break even point, then you're right Tyriel - you won't be able to count the number of characters whom it will be viable against.

All I am saying is that the VB is still very viable for other parts of the score ladder. An item doesn't have to be a Top Twenty thing to be worthwhile. The VB was a supporter item. I remember the first supporter item I got: A Cloak of Thought, I remember it was +21 or +22 (help me out, oldbies...). It wasn't THAT amazing, just a decent piece of kit. That's what supporter items should be... Not something you keep around that can change fight outcomes.

And I know you supported the change, PM... But the tone in this thread seemed different, which is why I spoke.

Characters which VB would be the best weapon against (disclaimer: I'm probably wrong with some of these.)

- Koyaanisqatsi
- The End of Days
- Critters (if your damage is less than the ToE cap)
- Oxcha (if damage done is less than ToE cap, although he has a 361 AC wall as well which VB would do well against)
- Vlad Tepes (touch and go whether VB would do most damage overall but VB would do most damage against the 392 AC minion for a start).


Characters which VB could be best weapon against in six months

- Tezmac (350 AC wall currently)
- Impulse (310 AC wall currently)
- Kaiser (318 AC wall currently)
- Queen Beee (probably needs a bit more AC plus damage would have to be under ToE cap)


Thats from the top 30 or so, not a huge number I know, and in some cases it is debatable whether the VB would do more damage than an ELS to the overall team and not just the wall minion, but there is hope there I guess.

Has the VB been nerfed too much? Possibly, but I'd give it a few months before rushing to conclusions.

I feel for those with large VB's but it is the nature of the game unfortunately, items get nerfed and those holding them get burnt.

While I run a mage team and cannot effectively comment on the impact of this nerf to the VB, I can however ask, why was there money given back with the recalculation on the VB x and +? Shouldn't the numbers just have shifted until the NW was the same? I am confused why there was a refund of some 500K cb2 and my weapon is now lower NW. I can understand the x and + drop, but shouldn't the NW be the same? The same amount of CB2 was put into the blade...why the refund...

They can always take that NW amount and invest it in a forger to have more NW investment in their item for this change.

Yes,

But Sut, remember Jon wanted Supporter Items in CB2 to be worthwhile in all stages of the game.

Just look at the current supporter items and you will see Jon's point.

However, the VB now is not really a decent weapon to use, due to the fact there are not a lot of high AC minions out there. How many minions have over 350AC? 20 in the whole game. If not backed by a TOE, a MH can do wonders. It is those high AC minions that have a TOE backing them up are the problems.

Unless one can dual weld, or can switch weapons in the middle of battle, this version of the VB is near useless. Just avoid those characters with a high AC/TOE combo. I just know of 2 out there now, myself and Little Devil. For a weapon such as the VB to be useful and not overpowering is to carefully titrate it.

We were on one side of the pendulum before, we have swung far the other direction. Somewhere in the middle is needed. Which is all I asked before and all I ask now.

glory, cb tries to keep your weapons stats around where you had them before. Since the pth is now much cheaper, everyone got refunds from their vb's as well as lower NWs

I still don't quite understand, the x dropped 70 and my + dropped 5, why wouldn't just lose some x and + and keep pretty much the same NW and not need a refund?

SP,

When figuring what characters a VB is best against, also figure that there are other minions that are on the character.

Yes Vlad has a 392AC minion but also has minions with under 150AC. While the VB will be better at the high AC minion, it will be worse vs the less AC ones.

So I personally feel that for the same NW, a MH would be better vs his character.

Same with Tezmac, etc.

Those with just the TOE: Just use a decent MH and overwhelm that TOE effect. Or better yet, use a lower NW elb/archery/TOA and just hit them 1 time to kill them. With archery/ELB doing so much freaking damage, even with the 20% "nerf".

Right now the only characters that the VB will do great against are mine, Little Devils and possibly Freeds due to the massive AC.

Sorry to say it, but I think it is long overdue... I don't have a HUGE ac wall (300) and have never used a VB, so I am not affected greatly from either side, but a weapon that has strength vs a wall should do just that.... and only that.

It should be a specialty weapon, that is used to knock down the character that is in your way so your team can clean up the rest of them....

It is the whole paper rock scissors concept of CB. You just got a little stronger vs rock, but darn worthless against scissors.

Along those lines how about a seeker nerf along the same lines? When hitting a non-mage near worthless damage?

"If 190 AC is the break even point, then you're right Tyriel - you won't be able to count the number of characters whom it will be viable against."

"with 50% reduction those are 352 and 328 for BNE and ELS."

So the VB is 'best' against 20 some people who have more than 328 AC, not even looking at how BoTH or MH could possibly be better.

Otherwise, any of the 'Big 4' would be better. Not including ToE or Protection, of course.

That's also not including the fact that NO TEAM (that I've seen) has EVERY minion with that much AC. NONE. Even including ToE and Prot, you may only have 1. Even with a wall backed by PL, you won't be attacking that huge AC EVERY hit in the battle.

I'd honestly love to see some mathematical proof that the VB is actually useable. The way I see it, unless you want to have Freed and PM on your fightlist, and those two only, you'd be better off with another weapon.

Somebody prove me wrong. Really. =)

Something I may be a bit dense about, or perhaps I am not just getting it:

"It should be a specialty weapon, that is used to knock down the character that is in your way so your team can clean up the rest of them.... "

I fail to understand. Are you saying use it as a 2nd weapon to knock walls down? Then you have to have 2 tanks and spend a decent amount of CB2 on 2 melee weapons. Or have a mage/tank combo?

Or are you saying use it the first attack to kill the tank, then switch to another weapon to kill the rest of the team?

Because we cannot change melee weapons in the middle of combat, or dual wield, one must have 1 primary melee weapon used on ones tank.

Because of the recent nerf to the VB, it cannot now be used as that 1 primary melee weapon.

PM, what kind of damage does your VB do against a naked minion?

"I'd honestly love to see some mathematical proof that the VB is actually useable. The way I see it, unless you want to have Freed and PM on your fightlist, and those two only, you'd be better off with another weapon.

Somebody prove me wrong. Really. =) "

Ok fine, heres the proof that the VB is more effective than an ELS against Vlad Tepes (I'm using ELS because it is the equivalent of the VB - One handed, no life leech).

A couple of assumptions first.

1) Character not using DM
2) Vlad has a Protection of 27 which I will assume gives 27% damage reduction.

First we need to work out how much more damage the ELS does than the VB.
Jon said the magic number is 328 AC for VB and ELS doing the same damage .
328 AC *.21 is 68.88% damage reduction for ELS and 34.44% against the VB - so an ELB will do 100% - 68.88% = 31.12% of full damage and the VB will do 65.56% of full damage against 328 AC.

So VB Damage * 65.56% = ELS Damage * 31.12%
VB Damage = 31.12/65.56 * ELS Damage
VB Damage = 47% * ELS Damage
So a VB does 47% of the damage an ELS does.

After casting his AS with effect of 748117 these are the HP's of Vlads minions

124 AC minion - 748,117 + 1,257,993 = 2,006,110
392 AC minion - 748,117 + 1,426,748 = 2,174,865
0 AC minion - 748,117 + 11,950 = 760,067
0 AC minion - 748,117 +430,964 = 1,179,081

Effective HP of each minion when using an ELS:
124 AC minion = 26.04% Dam Reduction - effective HP = 2,006,110/(1-0.2604) = 2,712,426
392 AC minion = 82.32% Dam Reduction - effective HP = 2,174,865/(1-0.8232) = 12,301,273
0 AC minions - effective HP = 1,939,148
Total effective HP = 16,952,847
Total effective HP after protection = 16,952,847/(1-0.27) = 23,223,078

with VB damage reduction from AC is halved
124 AC minion = 13.02% Dam Reduction - effective HP = 2,006,110/(1-0.1302) = 2,306,404
392 AC minion = 41.16% Dam Reduction - effective HP = 2,174,865/(1-0.4114) = 3,694,980
0 AC minions - effective HP = 1,939,148
Total effective HP = 7,940,532
Total effective HP after protection = 7,804,532/(1-0.135) = 9,179,806

9,179,806 / 23,223,078 = 39.5%

As you can see with the VB you are facing 39.5% the effective HP of the ELS and doing 47% less damage so the VB is more effective here.

I could do the same calculation with a big DM dispelling the AS and Protection, the result would be even more in favour of the VB.

I count five in the top 30 against which the VB is probably better than the ELS, there's four of five other possibles that probably need a bit more AC. Give it a few months and I'd say the VB would be better against maybe a third of the top 30, a fair number I reckon.

CB is a changing game just like any other massive multiplayer online games we just have to adapt to our surroundings.

Not only has this 'nerf' given other melee weapons more viability (not just the MH), it has also given DD a boost.

Do you try to use a HoC Decay to crack open that 450 AC minion? Or use DD over weapons now to ignore the base AC of your opponents?

With the VB no longer the best choice for everything, other doors have opened.

Nobody said the VB should be best at everything but even other specialty items and strategies work against more than 10% of the characters in the game.
I'm not seeing that here, not even in a years time, let alone six months.
Every single supporter item in the past has been useful for a lot more than the current, what?, 5%? of the score ladder which is currently the maximum amount of characters who are so much as close to the break-even point.
I'd be looking at bumping the base damage back up to somewhere around 55-60 at least, it needed toning down but it still needs to be a little useful or what is the point in the $6?
At least the other supporter items can be used effectively on farm teams if not needed by the main character but that is now where the VB is least useful.

/me agrees entirely wth Mr C, and wishes he had a bunch of money to snatch up all the VBs that will likely sell due to this ;)

What part of that $6 is "Thank You Jon" and what part of that $6 is "Gimme gimme gimme" ?

"Precious, precious, precious!" Gollum cried. "My Precious! O my Precious!"
And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell.
Out of the depths came his last wail Precious, and he was gone.

Hey, Jon remove the VBs, seriously, give us our money back and we'll act like it never existed.


you've given me a glaive to fight with. and 8 mil NW glaive.

'bartjan, 5:36 AM EDT
What part of that $6 is "Thank You Jon" and what part of that $6 is "Gimme gimme gimme" ? '


lol Bart. A lot of 'gimme gimme gimme' in this thread I think.


Come on folks, move on. Pick up the pieces and adapt. That's always been the way in CB, you cannot rely on anything to be concrete. CB1 for instance?


It's a pain when your strat is nerfed along with an item, but nobody can say this wasn't coming someday can they?

yeah johnny, just the NW, 8 mil, more than that, I can just take that back and go buy some other weapon can't I?

It's not as simple as that, I couldn't sell this for 1 mil.

Johnny, everyone expected a nerf but if I could get my GoP back from CB1 I'd be doing a lot more damage through at least 75% of the rankings right now.
I don't expect a lot from a supporter item as the 6$ is a trophy in return for the 'thank-you' to Jon but it should still be at least slightly useful in more than 5% of the game.
That is why I suggest base damage between 55 and 60, not too powerful but not completely useless against every non-USD spender.

Flamey, I feel for you I really do. Check out auctions at the moment; the small VB in there is mine...I'm going to be out of pocket for a couple of mill myself on this one myself. But it happens.

This is one of the results of those threads that come along shouting 'overpowered'. It's one reason why people should think twice before saying that word.

"That is why I suggest base damage between 55 and 60, not too powerful but not completely useless against every non-USD spender. "

Zog, if all you want is the damage, there are other options; execs and katanas do fine damage if you're prepared to invest with no expectation of financial return. 100k for an exec gives you a base damage of 80...

I'm not after the damage specifically.
The 10% extra vorpal-ness doesn't come close to making up for the reduction, by increasing the base damage back to the level I have suggested, it would still be nerfed but still a viable average weapon such as an exec or katana but in its own way.

Well Johnny:

Lets see how you react when the ELB goes from a base damage of 6 to a base damage of 4. You already took issue with the 20% drop in damage, imagine another 20% or more.

But as you said, "Pick up the pieces and adapt."

We all know the ELB is far overpowered, so let us wait for the really big nerf, like the VB one.

OR......

Since an item has not been changed in the over 1 year since it has been introduced, one would seem it would be safe to invest some CB2 into it. WIthout it getting neutered and losing all that investment.

Now I know you could care less about my money, but what about all those other people who do not buy CB2 and play the game purely?

I guess they have to just adapt to losing 40% of their damage in one blow, pretty unexpectedly. And yes, unexpectedly since we all knew about the uberness of the VB for months now and nothing changed with it for all that time.

And SP....

Yes, the VB might be better vs Vlads 392 AC minion, but what about his other 3 minions?

The VB is far worse vs them. Yes he has PL, but about 1/2 his character you will face with little AC.

So really, is the VB better then an ELS vs his ENTIRE character?

And really if your going to compare things, use the MH please since it is the weapon most people will use now.

PM: If you read through the calculation, you will see that my comparison was against his whole character not just the one minion.

I used ELS because it is the most similar weapon to the VB. In theory the "big four" weapons should all be equivalent anyway. If you don't think they are then it becomes an argument of whether one handed weapons are inferior to two handed weapons or non life leech weapons are inferior to life leech weapons which is a different argument altogether.

I can't comment on whether the VB has been over-nerfed or not but I do take exception to the claim that there are only two characters the VB is useful against.

PM, there you go again putting words into people's mouths.


From the ranged changes changelog:

"Johnnywas, March 2 2007 5:38 PM EST
Nov, hasn't made a bit of difference to my fightlist. Admittedly I'm down amongst the dead men here, but still; if anything this has made my team better.

yours sincerely an ELB user, London."

I bought a CoBF for 3 Million. Just before the nerf I was calling for happened.

I got refunded 'market price' as CB saw it for my now gone cloak. It wasn't 3 Million.

The nerf was expected, it was asked for. I got the cloak, because back then you *had* to have one. If you didn't you might not as well try to compete.

It was the same for the VB.

I understand *WHY* you guys are whining about your damage loss, but seriously. You knew this was coming. When there's an item everyone knows is overpowered and you have the availability to use it, you make a choice between taking advantage of it as long as it is in this state or not using it.

And so far as "It's been this way such a long time I didn't think anything would happen" - really, you thought Jon would just let you hold that nuclear missile forever?

Please.

OB,

Of course we expected some degree of nerf. However not an almost 1/2 nerf in damage.

Forget about the 10% more vorpal, which is useful on occasion. The 40% vorpal ability was enough.

And remember the VB did suffer a mini nerf after it first came out. From 50% to 40% vorpal.

Again, imagine the uproar if the ELB goes from a base damage of 6 to a base of 4. Most people still believe the ELB does far too much damage even now.

But, like I said in this thread, this nerf only makes my character and Freed's character much stronger. Imagine that, me asking for the one item in melee that can actually hurt my character to be rebuffed.

Yes, I am really asking for every advantage I can get-NOT.

"I fail to understand. Are you saying use it as a 2nd weapon to knock walls down? Then you have to have 2 tanks and spend a decent amount of CB2 on 2 melee weapons. Or have a mage/tank combo?

Or are you saying use it the first attack to kill the tank, then switch to another weapon to kill the rest of the team? "

Either...

I don't think the VB should really be a "stand alone" weapon. If you happen to be able to do enough damage with it to kill everyone so be it... but otherwise I do think it should be used in conjuction with other damage to be effective. Think of it as "wall decay". If someone is going to spend TONS of CB2 and invest PR in armor, that is the penalty you pay to circumvent it.

I think the "break point" may be too high to be realistic, but we will see. IMHO I would think somewhere in the low 310 - 320 ac area would be a better number for it to be more effective than other weaps.

Maybe the VB could bypass 50% of PL as well?
It wouldn't be an earth-shattering change but would give a small boost to VB usefulness, it could possibly even ignore PL completely?

Yes, supporter items are supposed to be more flexible here in CB2, but the VB has the unfortunate circumstance of being a weapon (I think it was a mistake to try a weapon as a supporter item).

We all know that weapons at the high end involve going with a top-dog item from the start. Not wasting time on tulwars and such. So, a weapon either needs to be uber or is nothing. The VB has gotten a little closer to the "nothing". The problem iw, there is no "gray area" with weapons. You either get one of the Big Four (and some would argue there are really only a Big Two) or you are wasting your time. The VB before was in the "use" category. It either needed to stay there or not. A smaller nerf would not have been a nerf at all, and enough of a nerf to make it less useful than an MH made it relegated to the museum... That's weapon dynamics, not supporter-item dynamics, at least in my opinion.

You can throw around figures all day about how much the nerf should have been, but at some point the VB would still be a "no-brainer-get-one" item if it hadn't been taken down this way.

Sut,

Very well stated.

As a tank, you pick a weapon and go with it. Sometimes a missile and melee weapon, or just one of the 2.

People did not really boost their VB's for a while after it was introduced assuming it would have a large nerf, given its powerful aspect/base damage/1H nature. Every changemonth since it was introduced people were expecting a major nerfage.

But after over a year of stability, people finally felt comfortable boosting their VB's. Assuming (and that I guess is the mistake) that it would suffer a small nerf but still be in the "use" category.

Aside from DB's there is not 1 item type people invest as much CB2 into-their weapons.

Now, with the VB falling into the "don't use" side, all that cb2 people spent, is basically gone. Yes, one can "use" a VB now, however, they will be so far behind other tanks and now mages, it is fighting an uphill battle with a very steep climb. Or as my parents loved to say: "Walking to school in the snow uphill both ways"

For those newer to the game, the VB was introduced way back in May 2005.

anyone bothered to test it out against ToE teams, where it should still shine like the sun?

The Grid fractured Gebil with Boomstick [1035134]-Average damage

The Grid's Jagged Popsicle Stick went snicker-snack! [222163]-Highest one

TOE character, Queen Bee.

Yes the MH is x12k and the VB is x3.5k

But look at the damage, even multiply the VB by 3 and it falls way short of the MH.

If someone wants to give me or lend me a x4k MH or Bone, I will be happy to try that.

Also remember the NW on the VB is 80M while the NW on the MH is 180M, just over 2x the NW for 1/5th the damage

I wish I could edit my post.

The last line should be just under 1/2 the NW for 1/5 the damage.

Vs a TOE character where it should shine like the sun.

Yes, I don't like using the word "mistake", but I don't think a weapon as a supporter item is a good idea. Although, the SoD (Sling of David) back on CB1 almost always had a place (for info, it had seeker capabilities regardless of ammo used). And because it was not upgradeable, it never got too over-powered. Same with the GoP (Glaive of Pain) and MoD (Mace of Disruption). Ah, that takes me back...

Maybe weapon supporter items simply shouldn't be upgradeable? That solves the whole "sunk cost" issue, and makes the items always viable at some level of the game...

I have a x1700 bone you could use.

"Now I know you could care less about my money, but what about all those other people who do not buy CB2 and play the game purely?

I guess they have to just adapt to losing 40% of their damage in one blow, pretty unexpectedly. And yes, unexpectedly since we all knew about the uberness of the VB for months now and nothing changed with it for all that time."

Exactly. I have had my strat taken down a couple notches before, but this pretty much killed me. I mean I understand what everyone is saying about the weapon being overpowered, and I would agree, but now it is useless. Jon needs to stop catering to the huge NW teams and start caring about the guys in the middle that love the game but don't have the cash. The VB is now only useable against teams with high NW invested into armor, since most regular weapon damage overwhelms the ToE anyways.

I only have one damage dealer (not counting my small GA) and now he's doing half the damage he was before (40% reduction plus I lost about 50x off the weapon). The top end of my fightlist is gone now, with my average challenge bonus cut in half. Not to mention the VB was 12+ mil NW, most of which I slowly invested myself, week by week. Now I will not get anywhere near the investment back in order to buy a replacement weapon, since the only teams where my VB is useful now are about double or triple my PR.

If this comes off as whining I don't mean it to be, it's just incredibly frustrating when the <1% at the top dictate gameplay changes for the rest of us. I had 1! target on my list that the VB should have worked great against (lots of AC with a ToE) but I had to remove him because of stalemating, so the new VB does doesn't work even when it's supposed to.

I am just going to switch to DD, since at least I know I will *never* get a 50% damage nerf to my strat with that.

*sigh*

the only way to play this game on the long term is to have a full bunch of every items in this game so that you can play whatever will happen.

Are you guys still arguing about this ?

Ask Jon if maybe we an get some of these then:
The New VB

How about since the damage done by the vb is terrible now, it is made more truly vorpal. By more truly vorpal I mean reducing armor bonuses/penalties(like DBs, TGs etc) and ED/EOs on the target.

Ok, testing a x3720 Named VB vs a x3450 unnamed MH on a TOE wearing minion-Queen Bee. Note this minion uses the TOE on his only minion, thereby getting the maximal effect.

The str of my character is about 2.5M, which is not unusual for TOA tanks.

WIth the MH - A Morgul-Hammer [84x3450] (+100) 42,337,668:
4 / 4 / 317,074

With the VB - Jagged Popsicle Stick [51x3720] (+155) 79,574,910:
5 / 5 / 228,577

Very interesting.

The VB did not "shine like the sun" as was suspected. In fact, it did worse for more x.

what did it lower your AC to though?

never mind (one word of that is not in CB Dictionary?), it was PM attacking with both.

CB is a bit like investing in the stock market - don't put all of your strategy in only one stock. Make sure it's flexible and can change - and make sure it's diversified!

Problem is that you cannot sell when your "stock" goes south.

Your stuck with it till it hits the toilet.

Sort of like owning Enron stock and the next day finding out it is now a penny stock.

Masamune [63x465]

Thank you Jon, some lovin' is much appreciated :D

I have kept quiet this entire thread because
a) it's a game.
b) change month is what keeps it from becoming stagnant

but if you're going to post stats and such about my character please get them correct is all i'm asking.

"After casting his AS with effect of 748117"

yes it casts for that much on the E's as they both have an AoF +10 that is named. it sure as heck doesn't cast for that on my tank or wall minions. so that might throw all your equations slightly off. :8^)


and for those of you who are foolish enough to compare this to the stock market, how do you come up with that comparison? how? cb is for fun and entertainment, the stock market is to invest and make a profit, see the difference?

Wow PM, a VB with 79 million? DAMN!

Well, all I can say is that if Jon had decided NOT to release the HoC before this change I would have been royally screwed, as it is though, I just have to worry about making sure everyone I'm fighting is beat down enough in ranged so that my reduced power VB can maul them effectively. Thankfully with an extra round of ELB madness death, I am pretty positive that I will maul most people. In fact I've only had to remove one or two people from my favorites after this VB change. (Yes, that surprised me too)

[G_Beee Edit: This thread is now closed to new posts. See here.]