Rewards doubled; BA generation halved (in Changelog)
April 26 2007 11:39 PM EDT
Short version: this is an experiment. If you think this is Bad For The Game, watch the "active players" count with me for the next couple weeks. If it doesn't help retain new players, then I'll be open to switching it back.
Rationale: CB's demographic is mostly (a) people at work and (b) teens in school. If you're not in one of those categories you might as well play WoW. But, a BA regen rate that makes you log on every couple hours to be competitive is going to turn off a lot of people in both those groups. (Smartphones notwithstanding. :)
:(woah woah woah woah... Forging? What happens to us?
April 26 2007 11:43 PM EDT
I've only been around for about a year but this is the best change EVER imho.
April 26 2007 11:44 PM EDT
"rewards" includes fight xp and money, and forging progress-per-ba
April 26 2007 11:45 PM EDT
Good for me personally as I miss so much BA during the day as I am working effectively now I only miss half.
April 26 2007 11:51 PM EDT
The only problem I see is with experimenting... With only having 6/10 accrual, I would have ZERO likelihood of, say, experimenting with a new familiar or fighting lower people to take data, etc. Each BA is going to be far too precious to waste... Forging screw-ups will really hurt more too, and buying BA is going to be hella expensive...
Is there anything between doubling/halving?
This will be very strange, only having to log into CB three times a day... Will it harm the community atmosphere?
That's off the top of my head, from a forger/fighter perspective... I think it is worth trying, in any case...
April 26 2007 11:52 PM EDT
I do miss a *lot* of BA... it's a good/bad change. I'm not going to be happy waiting for BA when I do get on, but then again that's not as much as I would need to be to be succesful. So.. I mostly like it mroe than hate it.
I think it'll hurt the community Sutekh. : / ... and yes, forging screw ups will hurt horribly, on a 90,20 cycle for instance, you accidently do 80 and cast viciousness. thats basically 16 wasted BA without any RPM gain... Ah well, we shall see...
April 26 2007 11:53 PM EDT
"Will it harm the community atmosphere?"
That's really the big question, but I don't see any way to find out besides trying it. :)
April 26 2007 11:53 PM EDT
Also, my BA cost more than doubled... Am I missing something? It was $555 before, now it is $1321? Shouldn't it be 555 x 2 = $1110?
April 26 2007 11:56 PM EDT
I'm mixed, I like the massive ba, it gives players who have access a chance to get there faster than those who don't, now we're kinda all on a limited field except for those that are already up there, but I guess there can never really be a perfect time to do implement something like this. Although I do like the double rewards part, but the cost of ba got doubled too, so for my character I now have to pay 3,319 for each ba that I buy.....
/me runs off to shrink his fight list down
April 26 2007 11:56 PM EDT
Oops, bad parentheses... yeah. Fixed. (Re: BA cost.)
well, its close, but it's not 2x the regular amount. My BA costed 409, now it costs 801.
what about BA price (for NCB included)
yes, it doubled as well, nevermind
April 26 2007 11:59 PM EDT
-- People who DO have the time to be on will be able to have VERY short fight lists and still keep up with accrual...
-- Sleep. People can sleep and not miss out on BA.
Jonathan, one thing I would like to point out is that sometimes too long is, well, too long. There was this city game where you move around and take jobs and advance (can't remember the game). With that game, I stopped after one day because you had to wait ALL DAY for the next set of turns.
Oh, another downside -- building a new character... With double rewards, that means feast or famine each battle. Trying to grow a bonus character is going to EXTREMELY dicey for the first 100K or so. So easy to burn a couple dozen BA on so-so rewards without seeing it. Granularity is important, and this scheme loses out on that.
More tomorrow, I am off to bed -- it will be weird to see a number smaller than 160 come morning. *smile*
April 26 2007 11:59 PM EDT
the factor that's doubled/halved is an integer fairly early in the calculation, so yeah, it's inexact.
April 27 2007 12:00 AM EDT
RedEcks, I guess we can see how Jonathan was rounding before. *smile* Gets us closer to a MPR to BA cost equation. *smile* Thanks for the fix, Jonathan...
April 27 2007 12:00 AM EDT
"one thing I would like to point out is that sometimes too long is, well, too long."
Yes, I'm very aware of this. That's why I'm saying up-front that this is an experiment.
Not that I was complaining. Just putting it out there. :)
I liked 6/10, it made the game really playable for me again, this scares me with how playable the game will be. Folks who've only been able to make it to 500k with an NCB will now be able to burn all the BA available to them without a problem, I think the playing field is now more level than ever. I don't have to worry about BA at lunch, or in the middle of the night. I'll miss having to arrange things around BA, but not that much! In reality, this should help the community, less down enter, more strat talk and chat!
It's likely to make us all rather "less competitive", no?
It was already noticeably easier to get through 160 BA without being farmed, when the accrual dropped to 6 per. With everybody fighting even more infrequently in a 24 hr. period, less chance of being on when someone else is fighting.
"In reality, this should help the community, less down enter, more strat talk and chat!"
When people will only get on 3 times a day for 10 minutes? I doubt people are gonna hang around in chat waiting for BA when they can just come back 6 hours later....
April 27 2007 12:04 AM EDT
Did the rewards take a hit with that fix? I was tapping for about 1.4k now I can't get over 1k and I'm fighting the two top players on my list, same gear setup as before.
April 27 2007 12:07 AM EDT
"With everybody fighting even more infrequently in a 24 hr. period, less chance of being on when someone else is fighting."
Until we double our playerbase. :)
"Did the rewards take a hit with that fix?"
Yes, rewards and price work factor in the same function.
April 27 2007 12:09 AM EDT
BTW, back in the distant past, the base was 10 BA every 5 minutes. (I think this was back on the first CB1 server, a 800MHz Athlon.) So if you are inclined to be pessimistic, hold that thought for a couple weeks. :)
April 27 2007 12:11 AM EDT
Let me hit the highest up that I can for a bit and see if I'm missing out.
It might not be a bad idea to lower the random factor since we aren't going to be fighting as much.
April 27 2007 12:13 AM EDT
Thanks Jon. Now I can have have more time away from the computer :)
April 27 2007 12:13 AM EDT
Why not just have the option between the 2?
If you want you can use BA regen per 10mins normal rewards.
BA regen p 20 mins and double rewards.
Depending on how often you play the game I guess.
April 27 2007 12:16 AM EDT
Personally this is good for me. I've missed BA at times because I've used up my limited time reading forums.
Now I can do both!
Good for PixelSage too, I should be able to pay off my loan faster.
April 27 2007 12:16 AM EDT
This will be the single best change ever for this game. Players will be much more strategic, seeing as how each and EVERY fight is now twice as valuable, and those with less time available to them will be capable of being more competitive. I love it. ^_^
April 27 2007 12:16 AM EDT
Wow way to mix it up...
Love it or hate it Jon flips the tables again =)
Personally I like it...
April 27 2007 12:18 AM EDT
"Why not just have the option between the 2?"
Configurability is a poor substitute for good design.
We just don't know which one is good design, yet. :)
April 27 2007 12:21 AM EDT
I am only getting 1 BA per cycle.
April 27 2007 12:22 AM EDT
lol this is going get interesting.... wait till we hit wacky exp times ;) imagine 5k-6k cash or 500-600 exp per fight lol
personally i do not mind :) i think its a good change... maybe needs a little tweeking
Ranger and i only got 1 as well
April 27 2007 12:24 AM EDT
I got 1 just before the 20 min mark and then got my normal 6.
April 27 2007 12:27 AM EDT
I think a sliding scale that is configurable will meet more varied needs that just one BA regeneration rate.
If I chose to regen a lot of BA per 10 min period, I would get less exp per fight, but a slight bonus (very slight) due to the time I am dedicating to the game.
If I chose to regen a full set of BA daily only, then I would get pretty massive rewards per fight, but would not have to log in multiple times a day.
I really feel that the more configurable you make the BA regen rate, the more varied your user base will be and in effect you will remove barriers to entry of having to log in x number of times a day.
"Folks who've only been able to make it to 500k with an NCB will now be able to burn all the BA available to them without a problem, I think the playing field is now more level than ever."
*cough cough* Yeah, thanks Jon! <3
Now I can spend my regular amount of time on CB (between sleep and school, I can only get 3 sets of BA in a day, anyways), and be more competitive than I would otherwise be!
Victory for the 500k MPR NCB's! Huzzah! :)
April 27 2007 12:36 AM EDT
Tyriel, while it might seem like that, but just remember that people that weren't missing much ba under the old system definitely won't be missing any now, so that was the one way you were allowed to catch up, now I think it's going to be harder to catch up than before.
"This will be the single best change ever for this game."
Not really. Influential, maybe.
What I see from this is that you lose the advantage of being able to overcome certain hurdles with brute force. The only way you can catch up to people ahead of you once you're out of your bonus period is by fighting more battles per day than they are. If it is easier and easier to get to 100% BA usage, your ability to fight more than someone else is lessened. That means that your abiltity to overtake someone above you by fighting more than they do disappears.
I've been watching the active users for a long time, and it's definitely not a very enjoyable stat to watch. So if this helps it, that's a good thing. But for the survivability of the game (and any ladder game), I imagine there needs to be coupled with it something to prevent the ensuing stagnation.
Mikel, you just said what I was trying to say (while I was typing my post) much more succinctly :)
April 27 2007 12:47 AM EDT
I think this is a great change. We should keep it. Thumbs up.
April 27 2007 12:47 AM EDT
I, for one, support this change. That way, I can get more time away from the computer as well as gain more exp/gold while I'm away or at the computer... That wasn't to well thought out.......
April 27 2007 12:49 AM EDT
Personally, I love this change.
i got 7 this latest refresh, but ive only totaled 8 since the 20 minute into the hour refresh...
i think i like it. it will be interesting to see what effects it might have on clan points and such.
will it also help server load, i would think that it really could especially if we do grow as much as doubling the player base.
"Tyriel, while it might seem like that, but just remember that people that weren't missing much ba under the old system definitely won't be missing any now, so that was the one way you were allowed to catch up, now I think it's going to be harder to catch up than before."
It's not all about forcing my way through to the top by burning BA more than the top players; I know I will NEVER be able to do that unless I stop going to school, don't get a job, and other such things. None of which will happen, at least for a few years.
If I can burn my BA more effectively, it gives me more XP and money than I would otherwise get. I get 2x more cash and 2x more XP with the same dedication that my life will allow.
But, several things happen, assuming that the top level players (especially top MPR character owner) use all their BA every day.
1) They gain no bonus to what they get, while I gain a 2x bonus. That means I can catch up quicker, get to 3.5(?)/10 BA regen faster, and gain an even bigger advantage, which, in turn, lets me get up even quicker than I am right now.
2) I get more cash. More cash = more equipment = more whatever. It'll help me, and the others who can't spend all their BA every day, even more than it does the top players.
So, while I may not be able to catch up to the top teams at all, with the exception of an NCB + RoE, I'll do better now than I did before, and quite a bit so.
I think I forgot something, though. :/ Ah well. My three-and-a-half CB cents.
I could be wrong, but the forging doesn't seem to be double-reward at all. Anyone else who's forging experience this?
Erm, that should be 3.5(?)/5. :)
And, are the BA levels halved to 5/5, 4.5/5, 4/5, 3.5/5, 3/5? With the .5 levels alternating between 4.5 and 3.5? Or am I confused somehow?
It must be you Karmic. I just got ~210% from one cycle on the x on an Axbow. :D
Oh, out of BA page says 8/20. So I guess the time is doubled instead of BA being halved?
April 27 2007 1:08 AM EDT
Fight smarter, not harder.
April 27 2007 1:11 AM EDT
Yeah I got a little over 3 points on my morg in one cycle, when I typically average 1.5 - 2
April 27 2007 1:23 AM EDT
Mmm. I'm going to have to wait and see what sort of effect this has on my game play. But I have played other games where the amount of turns you get were a lot more limited than this and to be frank I got bored because I didn't get as involved as I do here. As a new player it was much easier to lose interest, and even forget to play some days.
Now, while that's not a problem for me here because of the community (hopefully!), it may help to retain some players who start, but it's just as easy to lose some new players that way.
But we'll just have to wait and see. For me personally it may mean I log on less while I'm at work, which in RL may be a good thing!
April 27 2007 1:32 AM EDT
I would rather have seen the same BA regeneration rate, but the BA cap raised to 320.
This would let people have more time between BA regenerations but when you logged on, you would be able to fight for a nice while. I don't know about others, but I like fighting and being in chat at the same time. Gives me time to talk with others while I wait for characters to autoheal etc...
The problem I am worried about is the lack of interaction with the game itself. Every 7-9 hours coming in, burning your BA and possibly leaving. But when your here frequently enough to burn BA often you chat and meet other people.
Thank you for the change. I wish the experiment a success. It is because of the very reasons you cite that recently I had to become less competitive (work reasons). But now that regeneration is halved, I should be able to still be able to play competitively (mostly) without the consequence of hindering my work.
Thanks ever so much,
Too many fights...hours to get through BA on a slow connections...punishment in the extreme for dialup users and those with slow computers...endless farming...carpal.
I liked having to log often. I am always pretty advanced in my courses at school and CB is my main source of anti-boredom there. Now I won't even have enough BA to keep me awake.
Also, I feel that if people wanted to deprive themselves of a couple minutes per night of sleep to be competitive, well, they worked for their progress, you know...I never cared being underpowered because I missed 160 or so BA per night. Or course that is just my opinion, and it is biased since I fight quite a lot every day.
This will undoubtably alter social interaction here, too. It's not that I don't like exchanging a few words here and there with fellow CBers (few is the word, I'm not very talkative) but it is not enough to keep my interest for long. I need to be kept occupied :)
Last point. I know the number of active members is low, or at least it seems to be the general opinion, BUT, the quality of the player base here is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH higher than in any other massive multiplayer games I played. By far. So, do I really wish for more people to join? Of course, it does have it's advantages for Jon and CB itself, but for the community, I'd rather have a couple nice people than 10k 10-year olds to play with, as in WoW.
I can see the logic behind this change. It IS a good change, just not to my liking.
Anyway, I will pretend I made sense, and leave the topic with this last sentence:
Brace yourselves, change is coming again :)
Oh, and I am totally agreeing with Ranger here, raising BA cap instead of reducing regen rate is a perfect alternative to me.
April 27 2007 1:50 AM EDT
Ok, nice to see comparably 'huge' rewards for running through a full compliment of BA. I can see now how this would benefit those players who can't log on as often as others. I could log on less and see the same results or better. I like that, especially as I could never get on quite as much as some, despite being here a LOT. So a lot of the more - by comparison - casual players will see positive changes. I guess the downside will be mostly for those who are on 24 hours a day. Could prove to be interesting.
I'll withhold judgement on it's effects on new players though until I've seen it in action for a while.
April 27 2007 2:04 AM EDT
Oh and a nice bonus for tank teams: Less money spent on AMMO!!!!
Since everyone's chipping in, I figured I would join the crowd.
I think it is a good change. Bigger rewards are just... more rewarding. Even though you have to wait longer between log in times, you won't have to worry about missing BA and being competitive nearly as much. And CB does need more new players, here's hoping that we succeed!
April 27 2007 2:33 AM EDT
I think this is the best change since I started 1 year ago.
The is the kind of change that benefits casual players that don't spend USD. It is now completely realistic to burn EVERY single BA per day, which means us non NUBs will see more growth for less time spent.
I know this is true for me..but how many of us just hang around CB whilst not having any BA anyways? I know I do :D Now I can hang around and get a better nights sleep knowing that I am not missing any BA :D
changed the wiki to fit this change, but kept the old one in there just in case.
April 27 2007 2:43 AM EDT
a dog often is born with a leg missing in Egypt.
playing with small children is not advised if you are a box of matches.
My uncle rears goats as a hobby.
April 27 2007 2:43 AM EDT
oh and great change by the way :)
does this change botcheck hour-long bans, and multiple fights at a time warnings/ban of 10 minutes each?
Ouch good point SmallPau. Fail a botcheck and you got ravaged twice as hard... I like it (as long as I don't fail a botcheck)... :)
=P, i just love this picture, lol
April 27 2007 3:12 AM EDT
Dunno if it's supposed to happen like this but I used up my BA around 725am (UK time). At 740 I got another 8. Then again at 800. Then at 810 I got another 2.....
April 27 2007 3:40 AM EDT
I am happy with this change actually.... at first before reading here, I thought I have just stumbled a cool bug that gives me double xp and $$ at the same time :D
April 27 2007 3:45 AM EDT
A very welcome change IMO...and a healthy one for many! ;)
if everything is doubled then is clan points also doubled?
im wondering how this will be clan related, less clan points or still the same?
Clan points would be halfed, which always poses a solution for the "stagnation"
at the top. Now it takes less CP to be at the top, and more people will be using more of their BA everyday. Now maybe we can see some ACTUAL competition :P
Personally i really don't like this change.
I admit that during a day (and a night) i miss a lot of BA, but i never came to care about missing it. When i come home from school however, i don't have much to do except of hanging in front of my computer. What i'm trying to say is, with having to wait 20min for BA regeneration now will bore me like crazy. And yes i know it's sad i don't have a life, but i think many people like me spend their time waiting for BA.
I also think it might scare away some NUBs, since you get really addicted to the game and you want to play all day. With slower regen rate i think it will bore other ppl than me as well.
Last i think it will give even more power to USD, because now you can't pass a player by simply playing more. All ppl will be able to get the same amount of money/xp, no matter how long it takes them to log on again. Besides that i agree, that now there's nothing to using all your BA, you don't have to get up at night, you don't have to play at school.. so it's nothing special anymore to burn all your BA, and it won't get you anywhere special.
Just my opinion, well.. we'll see how this change will go
I love the 320 BA hard cap solution tho :) that would be a nice compromise, since you still get 10/10, 9/10 etc. but if you don't want to wait around for BA you can still only log on every 7-9 hrs :) would work perfectly for me :)
April 27 2007 5:40 AM EDT
please, please, please, lets go the 320 route - it will achieve similar 'good things' for the people who cannot be glued to CB screens for 24 hours.
April 27 2007 5:53 AM EDT
I'd go for keeping the generation time halved but with a cap of 320 as well. It only takes me between 5 and 10 minutes to burn 160 thanks to a pretty fast connection and the new server speed. If I'm not coming on as often at least I'll be here for longer when I do!
April 27 2007 6:03 AM EDT
Lots of good suggestions and I can't see too much of a downside to raising the cap to 320. (The implications for server load and gameplay during whacky time as everyone uses the additional 160 BA saved up needs to be considered.)
On the surface raising the cap would appear to achieve the same objective as reducing the BA generation by 50% whilst satisfying many of the current players.
I note the point that this is an experiment however and suggest we let it run it's course to see what kind of real impact it has.
Sounds like a good change, benefits the people who can't always get on as much as they'd like to.
I think this is a nice change, so basically instead playing for 3 hrs every time, we need around 6 hrs, and if somehow the idea of 320 BA cap is implemented, we need 12 hrs each to play once.
The only bad thing about this is probably if you're selling items, since you'll (or the buyer) be logging in less often, people will have to wait each other for longer time.
April 27 2007 7:26 AM EDT
Kudos to Jonathan for this experiment - he certainly does everything he can to keep us on our toes (which with a young family is no mean feat)
I'm not sure it will make an awful lot of difference to me, so therefore if it aids retention rate I'm all for it - but it will make me think twice about NCB. To that point I would like to add a suggestion - If a variable rate is introduced, would it be possible to link it to MPR (or VPR I guess) so that during the first period of NCB/NUB, when your fightlist is changing hourly, you are not penalised quite so heavily for losing?
April 27 2007 7:53 AM EDT
so awesome thank you jon
April 27 2007 7:56 AM EDT
I LOVE YOU.
April 27 2007 8:00 AM EDT
OK, only half a work day but it hasn't changed how much I've been logged in. My bosses won't love you yet Jon...
April 27 2007 8:56 AM EDT
Ok, if everybody can use all their BA per day, because you only get 3 or 4 time 160 ba per day, everybody could reach top ten so easely with a NCB.
April 27 2007 9:15 AM EDT
there is two reason (for now) why I don't like that change,
First: I get to play less per day, witch is starting to look like other MMORPG I don't like for that. CB was different, more interactive.
Second: Everybody will have the same score and mpr, since everybody will be able to play as much. That means no competition and no goals and with that change, players who use USD are just gonna own more then they do now.
thats not true belle, it all depends on your strat some ppl will retrain more then others and some will lose more then others, and not buying ba , there always be a way to get more or less MPR
April 27 2007 10:23 AM EDT
/me can't wait for wacky times now... $.$
April 27 2007 10:26 AM EDT
I like the idea about reducing randomness (though over a character's career, the sampling of data is still probably enough). Early on for bonus characters, the randomness and massive rewards are really going to make it hard to see how growth is going... I pity anyone trying to efficiently run a bonus up to 100K MPR or so...choosing targets is going to be a royal pain, and each experimental loss is going to really hurt.
I was also wondering if frequency of bot checks should go down? I almost got traumatic stress disorder forging this morning, realizing that every BA is worth a straight up $1100... Still got 5 bot checks in one 18-BA cycle. Seems a little bit ridiculous. Bot-riskers would be running into harsher penalties (leave those the same), so I am not seeing a problem with reducing the frequency of checks a bit...
Johnny has a good point about ammo... Now that bag of explosive shot is going to last that much longer. Did you hear that dropping noise? Prices for specialty ammo just went down, and it is all the more effective now. Sorry, mages...
For folks saying the BA accrual/reward scale should be configurable, one word: clans. Unless Jonathan revamped the whole clan system to also use decimal scoring that followed the floating scale, clan stuff wouldn't work right. But other than that, the configurable amount of BA idea is very, very intriguing.
I don't know if I like the 320 idea... I am trying to imagine what I would feel like if this (now) had been the BA scheme when I started CB, would it seem strange to me? Would people be clamoring for more BA? Or would it just seem normal, with everyone enjoying the ability to go longer without having to log in? Ask yourself that... I'm still trying to project myself into that place and get an honest answer (hard to do after four years of the previous scheme).
One final observation before I log off for 8 hours (*smile*) -- this change really hurts folks whose timing is more interrupted by missing entire days or weekends. For those periods of time, folks lose twice as much ground (comparatively) as they did before. So, while the change allows folks with daily access almost 100% BA usage, it more harshly penalizes people who take a whole weekend or set of days off. If I were a new guy and a friend and I started on the same day, I could see myself becoming disenchanted if I missed a whole weekend early on and he didn't (especially during bonus time!) -- he'd blow me away, and I'd probably quit.
But then, that's the whole reason for the experiment -- to see what wins out and see how retention looks later.
April 27 2007 10:32 AM EDT
I just read the whole post... I don't like it... It's making it easier for the people who aren't as dedicated to playing. And NCB and NUBs are going to skyrocket... Top players are not helped by this (and I am not now and never have been anywhere near the Top10)... they are the ones that are dedicated and spent a lot of time playing as much as they could to get to the top... So now, a NUB or NCB can blast all their available BA twice as easy and they are all going to be able to get a high MPR before their bonus time is up. I don't know if I'm rambling...
A. Making it even more attractive for new people...
B. Making the veterans that teach the new people play much less...
April 27 2007 11:12 AM EDT
I do like the fact that, on days when I only use two lots of 160, one in morning, one at night - which happens quite often because of work - on those days my ba use will be twice as effective.
And despite the fact that there is a longer wait between refreshes, today has felt like wacky time all day. Which is nice.
April 27 2007 11:34 AM EDT
It might just be me, but I appear to have made more money than usual. My XP rewards have been about right - doubled. But in the last twelve hours I've made nearly 250k. That's a bit above average during that time span. At this rate I could be on target for nearer to 500k by the end of the day, whereas normally at most outside of wacky times I make about 350k a day....
Not complaining; just wondering if anybody else has seen similar?
I like the change. I can usually only get on twice a day, once in the morning to buy BA and once at night, now I won't waste as much BA in between and I think I have a better shot at getting near the top then I did before. I also don't seem to be getting farmed as bad which will help my clan. And if nothing else, I survived the BA refresh change in CB1 and I can do it here too.
April 27 2007 11:42 AM EDT
S137 wrote: "Johnny has a good point about ammo... Now that bag of explosive shot is going to last that much longer. Did you hear that dropping noise? Prices for specialty ammo just went down, and it is all the more effective now. Sorry, mages..."
Well, that may not be the case. I think it was demonstrated that rare ammo generation frequency is directly affected by the amount of ammo actually being used. So less ammo fired, less ammo generated. That would mean that prices would stay pretty stable.
April 27 2007 11:44 AM EDT
It's a bit off topic, but today certainly, the ex shot refreshes bore a little more fruit than normal. I had to leave some behind because there was so much....
The 320 suggestion implies halving rewards, yes?
April 27 2007 11:48 AM EDT
No, the 320 suggestion implies keeping rewards as they were before this change. Or you can say 1/2 of the current rewards.
April 27 2007 11:50 AM EDT
Ranger - that'd be doubling pre-change rewards. The 320 suggestion *does* mean pre-change rewards would be halved, or your current rewards fourthed.
April 27 2007 11:50 AM EDT
Raising the BA cap to be at 320 achieves the same thing. You get the same amount time to reach the cap and supposedly the same amount of rewards.
Aside from the aforementioned, I believe there's a psychological aspect. I too spend most of my time in front of the computer like most have said. I also don't like waiting for my BA either. However, I would not like to sit in front of my computer just to click away at 320 BA vs. 160 BA. That to me is more boring than the 20 minute wait. I mean, I like to be competitive as well, but geez I'm not a machine!
Some have also mentioned that with the increased BA generation time there will be less interaction among players which will eventually lead to stagnation of new players to inevitable downfall of CB. I believe in interaction with the players is the key to a great success. But I don't believe the current experiment will affect it. Have you been in chat rooms? Browsed through forums? Chat rooms are almost always filled with the same people, what new interaction could you expect? The New Players room is always there to help new people regardless of this experiment. Most often then naught, new users will just turn chat off, leaving them with the forums. Anything they post will usually be met with a reply.
April 27 2007 12:10 PM EDT
Yes, chat rooms will have the same amount of people, but how many are AFK?
I can tell ya, in carnage at least 50% on a normal day are AFK for long stretches of time.
With the new BA regeneration rate, the AFK rate will go up, just my opinion, but I myself am AFK more since last night. I know some people may consider that a plus, but....
With a cap of 320, people can still log in every 4 hours and go through 160 BA the way they used to. But if you get delayed at work or in RL, no rushing home to get to the computer before your BA is capped.
April 27 2007 12:13 PM EDT
With a cap of 320, the rewards would be pre this changelog.
Nothing changes except the time it takes to get maximum BA accrual.
One is still regenerating BA at a rate per 10 minutes, not 20 as it is now.
I don't like the change because it was fun, as a clannie, trying to evade others beating on you while you were taking BAs. That's pretty much gone now.
April 27 2007 12:32 PM EDT
I see now, Ranger... just change the cap, not accrual rates... Even buying BA would remain unchanged... And it isn't really any extra BA to have to burn...
This will help out he top players a lot more.
They need less activity to keep their positions and have a pretty consistant fightlist whereas lower players need to constantly change their lists in order to make the mostof their BA but now get huge penalties for a loss whilst looking for beatable opponents.
Somone at an 8/10 refresh rate will not only not gain around $400-$500 which the would for winning, they also lose out 2.5 minues worth of BA which further distances themslves from the top.
April 27 2007 12:39 PM EDT
I think, perhaps I am thinking too much, that Jon wants to make it so people can take time (more than 3-4 hours) between having to log onto CB to maximize their BA usage.
My proposal to increase the cap does just the same thing. But allows those that do log in every few hours, or stay on during the day (like those at home or who can get CB at work) to have enough BA during the day to interact with the game and not get bored. As I am becoming now.
You would not be getting anymore BA to buy then before the change, or more BA regeneration. The only thing that would change is the cap-to 320. Allowing those who cannot make it to CB in the 3-4 hour period that previously constituted full BA regeneration, to have 6-8 hours with a higher cap.
April 27 2007 1:19 PM EDT
Perfect summary, Ranger. And yes, Zog, I think it makes growth that much more arduous, in the same way it makes experimenting, taking data points, and statistical analysis harder. Like I said much farther up. I guarantee I wouldn't have take 40 data points with my worthless Halidon Familiar against a lesser-reward target if BA were as precious as it is right now.
Ranger's idea leaves the same number of data points, just gives people more time in between required logins.
If a new player likes being able to wait 6-8 hours because it fits their schedule, I would think they would like seeing 320 after that time away instead of 160, yes? Just the whole "bigger is better" perception? "Wow, look at all the battles I can fight, _and_ I don't need to re-arrange my life to do so!"
I have been wracking my brain trying to see the difference between halving everything and simply doubling the cap, and I still can't think of anything. And the advantage of a doubled cap (as opposed to halved accrual) is that it doesn't penalize the whole-day-missers as much.
Finally, (and this "advantage" of a doubled cap might be a stretch), I think a 320 cap _enhances_ strategy based on BA-use timing. Hoarding 320 for high experience (yes, NUBs/NCBs will benefit -- advantage or not?) or high money, and hoarding more BA for targetted clan points will be interesting. One can really shift chunks of fighting/clanning around when one can hoard up to 320 at a time. Like I said, calling that an "advantage" might be a stretch -- Jonathan might consider it a disadvantage? *shrug*
ba cap used to be higher on cb1 folks, so we have actually had that experiment already. i am sure that is why jonathan is going the other direction with this experiment. i cannot remember if it was at 300 or 500 but it did used to be higher.
also, this method decreases server load while an increased cap would not change the number of battles but could definitely change the load in a negatvie manner at certain times especially with growth to the player base.
April 27 2007 1:27 PM EDT
Did Jon not get a new server for the increased load?
I was not around in CB1 when the BA cap was higher. So I cannot say how that worked. All I can say now is that boredom is setting it waiting for 6 BA every 20 min.
well i am still not sure if i like it. i am trying to give it ample time before making any decisions on the change. i just wanted to point out that the alternative people are offering has actually been tried before.
i am self employed and have a highly different schedule each day. what i see being the case is during the crazy times this will allow me to compete better. the downside is during my slow times i will be playing wow (or whatever graphical mmorpg i am into atm) more.
i do think jon needs to do what is best for the game and not for my schedule or boredom. i will thus be patient and see how it all turns out.
April 27 2007 1:39 PM EDT
Dudemus, wasn't the higher cap accompanied by higher accrual as well? 10 BA every five minutes?
Ranger isn't asking for an accrual change (that is kind of his whole point). Just a cap increase to give people more time between logins to see that beautiful, shiny hoard of BA waiting for them.
in truth i do not remember, i am old and forget specifics easily. :)
i think that for the matter of retention, which is what jon is working on with this, then the data would still stand regardless of accrual. also the data from the prior reduction would also stand for showing how many people left due to boredom when it went to 160. i guess i am not convinced that all the variable would need to be the same.
April 27 2007 1:55 PM EDT
I like the change. Before it I would have to dash in between classes, hastily fight for a few minutes, and then leave. Not at all conducive to long conversations or even general thought. Most of my posts and chatting was done at night when I had the time to relax. Whether or not I had BA was fairly immaterial.
With the change, I am not as rushed nor do I feel at a disadvantage when I am unable to check in so regularly. I think it is a good shift, especially for those with work or school, or who want to spend a few hours away from CB doing other things.
April 27 2007 2:50 PM EDT
I hate you, I hate you, I hate you.
But you can still salvage this.
April 27 2007 2:53 PM EDT
We should wait a day or two and then take this to a vote...
April 27 2007 2:53 PM EDT
How does this affect the forging?
2X the multiplier or something like that...
maybe this was mentioned but i dont have time to read every post
April 27 2007 2:54 PM EDT
April 27 2007 3:13 PM EDT
this should be a weekday only thing this screws up those on weekeneds but wait this could be a new type of bonus (ncb nub xpert ncb?) im just ranting on but still you could make some good use of this
April 27 2007 3:18 PM EDT
This really separates the community.
People like me, who come on here to burn BA on the side, but the real reason is to enjoy the community. I'm not a serious fighter or moneymaker, so I like the game that magically draws me in so I can chat and post on forums more frequently.
Fighters and moneymakers only, who sees that this is a better way to make money and gain experience. They are somehow not phased by the fact that everyone in the community will start to lose their ties to the forums and chat as most people start logging for half as much time.
Now, please correct me if I'm seriously wrong here. I've voiced my beliefs as a fairly neutral player on CB, not for or against everything that's said, and as a considered 'veteran'.
Another point: This is to help "retain new players". How will this work if some veterans leave? Not saying that I will, but with people around half as much (and I know for a fact that the amount of active players will NOT double, although it will probably increase a little), doesn't that really subtract from what everyone recognizes as the strongest point of CB, the community? Isn't it this that separates it from other games that are similar?
Point #3: "Rationale: CB's demographic is mostly (a) people at work and (b) teens in school. If you're not in one of those categories you might as well play WoW."
Wow. This, although I do love Jon, is a fairly stupid assumption. I would say that more people play outside of work/school than in it. Most, I would say, play this instead of WoW because it is a tight-knit community. WoW, just like RS, which a lot of people play, is filled with 'different' people, ones who I wouldn't want to have any little children around. That's very different in CB, but then again maybe I only think that because I'm a little child =P.
Conclusion: This may be good for new players, but sucks for vets who are interested in the community more than the game. People do NOT play this because they're at work or school and can't get on WoW.
Oh, and I won't get into the actual gameplay dynamics, maybe I'll save that for when I log back on in 6 hours when my BA finally fills.
\/ - flame here
scytale, yes, 2x the RPM gain.
I think that this halved BA regen will really cut new strategies down. Why would someone, like me, make a NCB and start 'testing' out a new strategy when there are already current strategies that you know will work? Why waste all the money, and the time (a lot more now), to find a new efficient strategy?
April 27 2007 3:20 PM EDT
How about the choice to choose? How hard would it be to make a button where you could pick 20 min refresh/x2 Rewards or 10min refresh/normal rewards? That would fix everything...
April 27 2007 3:51 PM EDT
Quiet down Moosh. This change is awesome! It directly increases my social time by 50%!! :p
April 27 2007 4:08 PM EDT
Mad, how would that work with clans? I.e., see my post further up. While a floating scale sounds nifty, clans would not work that way, as they are integer-based as far as clan points, and so are unable to be easily scaled for those who have more BA than others. Heavy clanners would simply choose the highest BA accrual option, and since everyone appears to be ga-ga over clans around here, that would mean everything being back to the old way.
If you want to get behind an idea that offers no real boredom or disruption and yet still allows longer times between logins, you should get behind Ranger's cap-doubling idea.
April 27 2007 4:23 PM EDT
"Mad, how would that work with clans?"
Double clan points for people who choose the lower rate of BA accrual would solve that problem easily enough (I think).
The problem I see with having a choice is when would a player choose and how often could they change it, and how would that affect game play...
April 27 2007 4:34 PM EDT
If Jonathan is going to bother to make a sliding scale, surely he would have more than two options, yes? It would be pretty silly to just have old and new options simply because folks are complaining. A sliding accrual/reward scale would allow a user to choose how fast BA accrues and would then adjust rewards accordingly, along a continuum. Living your live five hours at a time? Select the BA option that best suits it. Like to be on a lot and can guarantee logins every couple hours? Turn on the highest accrual rate (and receive the lowest rewards).
The problem with that idea is that the factors don't always work out. Yes, doubling the clan points for people on half the rate would work in theory -- except that the halfers would be burning 24 hours-worth of BA while the non-halfers would be getting 19-20 (unless they burned some night BA). So there would still be a disparity there. Other than that, I guess making the clan points be multiplicative and normalized to the clan points granted to the fasters BA accruers would work... I was thinking backwards, thinking clan points would have to be made non-integer, but you are right -- that wouldn't have to be the case...
April 27 2007 5:21 PM EDT
Ok, so one day isn't enough to judge maybe, but I've been on today the same as I normally am. I've been in the forums as much as normal, had a few CM conversations and won some money in a contest.
Yes, it's only one day, but unless the rest of the community disappears around me I can't see this having a negative impact on most people. And that lot of BA that I wake up to in the morning gives me twice the rewards it used to. So actually I'm probably better off....
I see that NUB/NCB chars have been brought up before, but I've not noticed anything as to my inquiry. Has the NUB/NCB% been dropped to compensate that they can now, effectively buy twice the BA each day? (same amount, twice the rewards for anyone who was gonna say "the amount of BA hasn't changed")
April 27 2007 5:44 PM EDT
Amount of BA to purchase went down. It is still 12 hours worth, but that number is obviously smaller now. Half the BA, twice the cost, twice the rewards. Still a consistent package to buy each day, yes?
oops, i didn't check immediately before posting, but i did see i could buy the same amount as normal sometime after the switch. idk, maybe I'm just a moron >_<
April 27 2007 5:48 PM EDT
Not many people going to be able to buy BA, at least not on NCB. 1659 per BA.
That's still half a million a day I would need to do that... :/
April 27 2007 7:06 PM EDT
On the other hand JW, I too seem to be getting more money than usual...
April 27 2007 7:09 PM EDT
I had a thought about that, because I've made more money than usual today. Do you wake up to a full 160 BA? Because on that one, if like me you have a normal night's sleep, you are getting an extra lot of rewards that you didn't get before. The equivalent of 160 in 'old' terms. You wouldn't see different if you were the sort to use up 24 hours of BA.
April 27 2007 7:10 PM EDT
So maybe more people will be able to buy ba than could before....
April 27 2007 7:17 PM EDT
Sorry, too late, too tired to think properly. I think actually I was slightly worried about the economy and auctions.
April 27 2007 7:23 PM EDT
heh. It must be late, because my maths is working.
For anybody who can't understand why I and they would be better off from this change:
On a normal day I wake up with 160 BA. Then throughout the day I use up all my BA. Lets say that portion is 400 BA.
After the change that 400 BA is now 200 BA, but with the same rewards. But the 160 in the morning is still 160 and now with twice the value it had previously. Bang, extra rewards!! :)
April 27 2007 7:25 PM EDT
There is a worry that we may now produce more cash than before...the price of CB$ may drop. Dunno what effect that would have on the economy, if any....
April 27 2007 8:20 PM EDT
Johnny, the other way to think of it is in terms of "gap". My "gap" of time to get to a full 160 is now 8 hours and 40 minutes. That means if I get 8 hours of sleep I still have not lost any BA. That means 24x7 usage, which of course means greater rewards. Look at the top forgers today -- they are over 500K, whereas 400K was a pretty good day before. That's a 20-25% increase, which makes sense, considering my actual BA usage was around 19-20 hours per day before, now it is pretty much 24 hours.
April 27 2007 8:25 PM EDT
I hadn't thought of it in those terms. Hmmm. That means now on a good day I'm not missing any BA as well. And yet I still manage to have my 'life' lol. Nice!
I do believe I am liking this change. It is nice that now we don't have nearly as much BA to have to try and plow through.
Also, not sure if this is a bug, but buy buying my 288BA during wacky $ time I net gained over $62k. There might have been an extra 8 BA in the last bunch, but I seemed to get an extra $20k out of every 100 BA I bought. Is this right? I always thought of buying BA = losing cash? Not that I'm complaining...
April 28 2007 2:21 AM EDT
I think this has allready had a detriment effect on chat, just has been the same three or four people all day...
April 28 2007 7:05 AM EDT
I am pretty new at this, but I did like it the other day.
You did not to worry about missing any time because when you came
back you always had 160BA, and now it is like most text based
games. Take your turns, set your reminder alarm for 8 hours and
knock out your next set of BA. I can see where this will not help
chat, there is seven hours I will not be on the site.
I got hooked on playing this because I could log on anytime and
have like full turns. Play six or seven times a day, would check the
the forums for new stuff. I vote for the old way, I would rather
have the rewards lower and play more. I thought that is what
you want more people to play.
Of course you can continue to merge it into every other game out
you made it.
April 28 2007 7:19 AM EDT
Sorry did not think of this when I was typing my other response.
One of the benefits of being a on being a supporter is
Up to 5 active Characters instead of 2
2 or 5 if you want to start and play another Character unless your
using it for a bank, you need turns to build them up. I can see
where I will most likely stick to my main team and not try other
things since in will hurt my main team.
April 28 2007 8:35 AM EDT
Interesting way of looking at it Thanatos.
Jonathan - any more worms in that can of yours? ;-)
April 28 2007 8:57 AM EDT
i dig it Jon, i hope the change stays
April 28 2007 9:53 AM EDT
I like the change myself.I have other things to do in the day and having to log on every three hours to stay competetive was not possible.Now with this system I only have to log on three times in a day instead of 6-7 to keep up.It makes me more likely to stay involved with the game since I can be less "stagnant".I do think it would be nice to perhaps have a choice of either system for players who have the time to be on more.But I imagine that would be very difficult to do.
Just my two cents.
maybe its just me, but exp time doesnt seem to be very high for exp at all, =X
Okay, I hate this change with a passion, now I am absolutely certain of it. But If it is to stay that way, something gotta be done to reduce the randomness of rewards, because I feel as it is now, it prevents me from seeing, or more precisely ''feeling'' I am getting double rewards, and adjusting my fights accordingly.
Just my pissed-off opinion.
Everyone saying it is better for them. Should it be about ourselves or about CB as a whole? I personally wouldn't mind missing 1-1 1/2 sets of BA per night if it means a more lively community and more fun.
April 28 2007 1:30 PM EDT
I think Exp gain should be fixed throughout your battles. If I fight and get x Challenge Bonus, x N*B Bonus and x RoE Bonus, I should expect x Exp. This would allow players to determine how many battles at differing setups of Bonus' it would take to increase MPR by x. Most games that I play give a fixed exp based on your opponent. Not 50 one time and 250 another, this is exacerbated by the recent changes.
Then we'd all fight the same person over and over again until we can fight higher up. Maybe 3. considering the small amount of BA we get now, it wouldn't be too hard...
April 28 2007 4:30 PM EDT
That was why I was really surprised when Jonathan gave us the Challenge Bonus Report - takes a lot of work out of setting up your fightlist
Seeing your Challenge Bonus is a big difference of getting X amount of Xp from Y player every single time.
im on the fence about this, i mean i dont have to check in so often to use ba, which is nice for sleep, but from the forging perspective it sucks if i screw up, especially when im working on someones ac
April 28 2007 5:53 PM EDT
I'm also on the fence about the change. But I have to admit, I like the fight rewards I'm seeing. *grin*
Time will tell if I embrace it or hate it. But I agree we should all give it a chance.
April 28 2007 5:54 PM EDT
After playing a few days I have to say I like it. Less stress with the same general level of interaction from me.
Two thumbs up.
April 28 2007 6:02 PM EDT
What about Z ?
maybe allow a little "Hey dwarf, i know what I'm doing, this item's hard to forge" on items with 15+ BA cycles. =P Because i could see how this could really hurt forging.
April 28 2007 7:20 PM EDT
Yes, screwing up a forging cycle, at the exact wrong spot (like on the front end of one, yet almost to second RPM gain) hurts twice as much.
I will counter that with the following three points:
-- It already hurt more than someone fighting. That's the nature of forging -- for some reason, Jonathan thinks the already-red-headed stepchild of BA usage needs to also be the "riskiest". But it already did hurt more, and no one was complaining.
-- Screwing up a forging cycle doesn't always happen in the worst possible spot. Sometimes it happens on the back end, after tempering, for example. Losses incurred in that scenario are far less than "worst-case" cycle mistakes.
-- Unless you were burning all BA 24x7 previously, this change gains you around 4-5 hours of BA a day, because you lose much less BA overnight, during school, during work, etc. So you are going to be gaining on what you had before. Yes, everyone else is gaining too, and I understand the forger frustration. But it really isn't all that bad, I don't think...
"Unless you were burning all BA 24x7 previously"
People that were finding ways to put in the required time are now being penalized for it.
Lack of bonus != penalty.
Read the thread from november where the bonus is explained.
April 28 2007 10:34 PM EDT
Well I personally like it. It was getting to the point (work and family wise) where I had to seriously think about whether to continue.
April 29 2007 12:46 AM EDT
Definitely the way to go. Makes for a more level playing field between 24/7 players and those of us who must be away from CB for extended periods of time.
Level? Cb used to be totally Level.
Level=dedication+time spent on CB.
Now it is more like: Level= playing CB.
Not right to me.
April 29 2007 3:28 AM EDT
On the contrary, if you are to have a game that is fair to as many people as possible (and therefore attract as many people as possible, which seems to be Johnathan's goal here), you need to have a middle ground that caters to the maximum number of people.
That means adjusting the game, a balance between those who cannot possibly give the time needed to compete (some of us do not have regular net access for one thing, let alone the ability to restrict our movements solely around said connection), and those who can.
And in regards to the forging point made earlier, well that's easily solved. When there's less overall BA per day, Johnathan can simply increase the forging gains so they would be about the same as before.
Of course. If you wanna make the game as fair as it can be, the change at hand is perfect. But it is my opinion that people who reject some sleep, social life and free time SHOULD strive bettter than those who do not.
April 29 2007 4:46 AM EDT
"Johnathan can simply increase the forging gains so they would be about the same as before."
it is, but if you stuff up its twice as valuable as before, and you waste BA, because you have to start the cycle.
I guess fighters are penalised heavier when they lose compared to before? but, Forgers can stuff up more than that.
Did CPs get doubled? Because I'm seeing the same CP as I did before with basically less fights.
April 29 2007 9:57 AM EDT
The penalty for screwing up a forging cycle maybe twice as much but so is the reward for successfully completing a forging cycle so forgers are neither better nor worse off relatively speaking.
April 29 2007 10:07 AM EDT
What Sacred? I must not be following you. The rewards for forging are not that high, much less *twice* that of fighting, and the penalty is losing half your current progress if you screw up. Which, if you are working on, say, an 8M item, would be up to 4M worth of progress.
Not only that, it isn't hard to make that screwup. During the second half of the cycle is when it happens to me: Heat a couple times, cast tempering, you go to quench but you get a botcheck. After putting in the botcheck, you hit enter the number of times to quench - but wait! Getting that botcheck moved your selection back over to heat. You just lost 50% of your progress.
This has caused my computer to be the recipient of many unfairly given profanities and beatings.
April 29 2007 10:08 AM EDT
I think SP is saying the following:
Let us say you mess up 1 in 10 cycles.
Whether you get the normal RPM or the double RPM of now, you will lose the save overall amount over time.
April 29 2007 12:19 PM EDT
Hmmm, I'm still not sure whether I like this change or not, but a couple of points I would like to make:
With less BA around, and presumably less Clan Points, the tactical decision between CPs and XPs is even more important - this is A Good Thing.
The BA available for experimentation and tweaking of both strats and fightlists is reduced - this is A Bad Thing.
I must admit, at this moment in time I would quite happily vote for a 'sliding scale' of BA regen (were such a vote to happen, and I'm not convinced it will), even if the sliding scale only offered two rates, as long as you could change your rate every week or so (say on a Sunday).
My final point is a question - really more of a poll than anything, so I guess I should start a new thread - but I'm quite willing to take any fine that comes to me:
Does everyone agree with Ash - that people who devote their life to CB should end up on top; or do they think that there exists a certain point of dedication beyond which it is unhealthy to go, and that anyone willing to invest a reasonable amount of time should be able to rise as far as their ability allows?
I think sacrificing real life for a game is a bad thing, but that never stopped me until I finally got my priorities in order.
April 29 2007 12:36 PM EDT
I think the change is fantastic.
I only am worried about the decreased amount of BA.
Things like experimentation will be harder, knowing each BA is more precious.
I love the change too. I just decided that I couldn't put in the time to be competitive a few weeks ago. Now, with the change, I can stay competitive. I sure wish the change came sooner though, before I sold all my items. :\
This change was designed to give Todd an unfair advantage. ;)
No really, I actually like this one too.
April 29 2007 9:05 PM EDT
Of course the majority will love this move, just don't plan on getting to the top via this method, it'll never happen now.
"Each BA is going to be far too precious to waste... Forging screw-ups will really hurt more too, and buying BA is going to be hella expensive...
Well what if you just set the max BA cap to double what it is currently and left the BA rate the same... people still could get on half as much as they need to and BA wouldnt be wasted, due to it being "too precious"
sorry if someone said this already, i had limited time.
That method then takes double the time to use the BA and is a nightmare for anyone with a small fightlist (75%+ of the middle ground).
Plus we already had a 300 cap in CB1 when it was introduced, it was then reduced to 160 which is a nice number in my opinion.
April 30 2007 10:57 AM EDT
well then, u could half the ba reduction, half the ba max cap. and quadroople the rewards :D
in all seriousness though, i enjoy this change.. i will actually be able to be somewhat active again thanks to this change.
Challenge Bonus . . . . . Experience (5 fights)
22% . . . . . . . . . . . . . 198, 217, 201, 280, 186
-1% . . . . . . . . . . . . . 218, 214, 129, 222, 245
Major randomness, and almost roughly the same between HUGEly different challenge bonus'. i only got the last 5 battles between the two %'s until i ran out of BA.
April 30 2007 5:03 PM EDT
Indeed - experimentation has just gone out the window. Love how my days of playing are "less stressful," hate how I'm now not interested in fighting other players outside my playlist - BA IS too precious to waste.
Maybe a balance between what was before and what we have now?
I've been away for a bit but it looks to me like Jon has been scratching himself with the awesome stick ALOT while i been gone
I am sure someone has already mentioned this but I kinda like the change but I also do agree on the fact that it has made ba much more valuable.
My suggestion is to turn this of on sundays, or have it rotate weekly. But with some sort of provision that won't allow users to buy BA and save it to use during superchaged time.
Also another addition to this would be to do something with clan points. Not sure what to do but seems now that the people who dedicated a ton of time to this game are on the loosing end with clan points because now it is very easy to not loose any ba.
May 1 2007 6:43 PM EDT
I thought it would be a good change at first but I'm wanting the old regen back now =(
May 1 2007 8:19 PM EDT
After listening to what everyone says, after trying it myself, etc. - I have decided that I really like this change. ^_^ Keep it!
Note: I am biased in my opinion, as this allows me to work and yet still be competitive. I don't care how many BA regen, as per the idea with 320 BA regenerating with the old rewards - I just like the new rate at which it regenerates because I don't have to be on every few hours. Which is preferable - I still spend plenty of time on CB reading forums and chatting, so I don't see this reduced 'necessity' time as a bad thing.
I don't like it, no great reasons I just don't.
Oh and it benefits USD spenders too as a larger % of overall BA must be spent in XP time to compete MPR wise.
May 1 2007 11:34 PM EDT
doubling the BA cap and keeping the old rewards would be better then this solution :) as many have said
It's not helpful to new players. They need the BA.
May 2 2007 12:37 AM EDT
Bad Change, in my opinion.
I think it is obvious that this will benefit more the players who play CB for the game [read: Those who log on once every X hours and burn their BA to gain rewards].
And so we can see the old players who joined long ago have continued to play because the community was so great them (Anyone remember Todd, Valg, Ulord, those guys?)
Thus the game has turned, or switched towards a game-oriented one rather than a community oriented one.
We have seen many old players leave because of the community (or lack thereof) - I personally have stopped playing diligently because the community has gone downhill (Yes I know there are great people out there :D ).
So with the game-oriented play instead of a community oriented site, we will see less and less people coming back. Repetitiveness can only go so far, and the reason why I put up with pressing "enter" so many times was because the community was so awesome.
So please, even though I don't play, revert back to the old ways.
And if I have repeated someone's sentiment, I apologize - I didn't feel like reading 190 posts.
May 2 2007 5:54 PM EDT
Well, this change benefits players who log on every 5-6 hours more than people who stay on all the time...waiting for BA to regenerate. Since this change makes BA regenerate slower (with better effects), it takes 5 hours and 20 minutes for your BA to fully regenerate, therefore people who go on every 5 hours will be just as effective as someone who stays on all of the time...just a though
May 3 2007 4:25 AM EDT
Hence, the game will be able to attract more players. Just what Johnathan was after.
But with half the BAs and half the actions and longer wait periods between fights, we're not spending as much time in the game. Because of this I think the community will suffer and interest will wane. It's lost some of its edge and become something less frenzied, for better or worse.
May 3 2007 10:17 AM EDT
A while back after my NUB was expired, I realized that I could not be competitive in the world of CB without being able to access CB every waking hour. Going from super NUB and overcoming opponents I once could not beat was a thril... after my NUB, my growth was almost completely stagnant. The only way to be competitive at this point was to burn 24 hours worth of BA which many of you out there accomplish daily. This realization eventually lead to a sellout.
My point is... this change allows people who cannot access CB all day everyday to be just as competitive. It doesn't mean that people who like the game less get an advantage... but rather its for us people who may have a job where they do not sit around a computer all day and can Alt+Tab in and out of CB on an hourly basis.
Basically, this change evens the playing field. Unfortunately, if this change doesn't stay in one form or another I fear that I will lose interest in CB again and leave for good.
May 3 2007 11:35 AM EDT
"Because of this I think the community will suffer and interest will wane. It's lost some of its edge and become something less frenzied, for better or worse."
That's exactly why I think it'll get better. Many times when I get burnt out on this game it is just that - because it is frenzied. "Must hit BA every 2 hours!! Must reach internet connection!!"
But not anymore. Now it is relaxing. I can burn BA and talk in Chat without worrying that it'll regen and hit the cap and I'll lose BA by being distracted - nope, with a 20 minute break between each regen, that's no longer a worry.
I still really like the change.
May 3 2007 11:39 AM EDT
I like it still myself. The only thing I don't like is those moments when I want to test out who I can beat, by going to the standards opponents list and burning some ba. I used to do that quite regularly. So I have lost some of the ability of knowing how high I can climb when I want to know. Now I have to wait until I have enough BA to waste.
It's not major though. Apart from that I'm liking the change, especially the fact that I'm making more money than previously because of getting extra rewards for the amount of BA I use.
final solution, max ba cap at 160,000 so you can go inactive forever, and come back and win the game?
how about you double the forge effectiveness. for example: if someone were to normally do 5% per round on... say... an ELB +25, then now we could have it do 10% per round on that same ELB +25. Because the BA regens half as fast, the forgers to get nerfed. This would basically remove that nerf to make forging as profitable and useful as it was before.
Just my two cents. =P
it already is, lol, and wow, 201 posts
The forging efficiency was doubled.
May 3 2007 9:21 PM EDT
It should be doubled again. Poor forgers. *grins*
It seems that everyone thinks there needs to be a change in CB (at least needed before this change), and I'd say that al theorists could agree on the 320 cap with regular rewards idea. You get the ability to where you have to spend some time on CB when you play it, not that you can play it once every 9 hours for like 20 minutes. This eliminates the chat being dead (and we thought it was dead before the change lol).. now it's just like a ghosttown. I think the 320 idea would have the same benefits as this change, only with the ability to use a lot or a little of your BA..
Just my insight on this thing.. the real question is, what do YOU think?
May 4 2007 3:25 AM EDT
that'd just make it way longer to burn BA. The only benefit is that losing isn't as severe, and you can test out more stuff I guess.
On the whole chat is dead thing, please stop, it's ridiculous. If anyone wanted to not be, just Burn BA and get out, what's stopping them from doing that, regardless of the BA refresh, even if we 20 every refresh, they'd just come back after it regenerates, nothing is stopping them when the refresh is normal compared to now. I don't think chat is dead, I don't think it ever really was, but this change hasn't made a difference, I'm sorry, but no, this change doesn't kill chat.
Also, would the BA that is able to be bought, will that double or what?
im starting to enjoy this new set up, i mean, i dont have to get up and burn ba in the morning right away to maximize it,
another change i like :)
I don't like it.
It's more difficult to spend all of your ba while forging. Waiting for that one extra round of BA takes twice as long now!
Old way allowed me to spend more ba before leaving for school etc. I enjoyed logging on every few hours and spending all my ba then waiting an additional ten minutes to finish off the last of my ba. Then I can leave wherever and not have to remember which quench of the cycle i was on.
May 4 2007 8:00 AM EDT
I was in chat for the first time in a couple of years the other night - seemed OK to me :-)
Overall, I like the change generally (more money is always good, and curiously I'm getting better Clan Bonus now), but I would like some kind of 'experiment' mode/ sliding scale.
May 4 2007 8:16 AM EDT
Its nice not have to miss a whole lot of BA. :)
May 4 2007 8:30 AM EDT
Leon, buy the remaining 4 BA?
May 4 2007 8:38 AM EDT
I must say I was kinda sceptic about this change. I reacted the same way when it went from BA every 5 minutes to 10. It turned out to work very nicely back then, and I think it's the same way now!
For the last week or so, I am actually able to burn all my BA, 24 hours a day. I generally sleep only 6 to 7 hours a night. Before I would lose lots of BA, now I get more XP, more cash for ehm.. less effort ;) The community doesn't seem to be altered in any way, we just get bored quicker and start creating threads that don't make sense :p So, without downsides, I don't see a problem here. W00t for 7BA per 20 minutes!
May 4 2007 6:45 PM EDT
I was also a bit skeptical, but now I think this is a good change.
I wholeheartedly agree with OB, even if he was being sarcastic.
I'm blaming the declining USD value of CB2$ on this change. And don't ask why, 'cause I don't feel like arguing.
May 8 2007 10:47 AM EDT
I think the declining USD/CB2 is not largely due to the BA change.
After all the amount of money people are generating is perhaps a bit more due to the more effective BA usage percentage. That is people using more % of their available BA now.
However, I personally noticed less and less people buying CB2.
The only person I see buying huge chunk now is Nightstrike.
Comes down to supply and demand. Demand right now is very low and the supply can be just a bit higher.
May 8 2007 1:46 PM EDT
Wow... where have i been the past few months, time for me to fight again :)
May 9 2007 2:11 AM EDT
jayuu left, maybe that helps? and I think freed is set for life, he's got a lot of useless stuff. :)
May 9 2007 10:24 AM EDT
Has anyone but Jon been watching the "activwe players" count?
It is at 400 now, but I forget what it was when this changes started.
It was 348 at April 23 if that helps
i seem to remember looking when the change first hit and the count was around 376. again i am old and forgetful so i wouldn't count on that number without verification.
Check the past LERs. That's what they're there for.
And they tell me, that at least since the end of March, the active players count has fluctuated between 350 and 400.
It does seem that the slight downward trend in active players has become a slight upward trend, but it is hard to say for sure since it does fluctuate.
May 9 2007 4:24 PM EDT
I heard downward trend!
Change it back change it back!!! =P
May 9 2007 4:26 PM EDT
At least it is no worse, which is good.
May 14 2007 9:37 AM EDT
Does the time you wait when you miss bot-check as been doubled?
May 14 2007 9:40 AM EDT
wow... i come back and the game is completely different
May 14 2007 10:52 AM EDT
No Belle-Ange the time for missed bot checks has not doubled, however the $ cost has.
May 14 2007 11:16 AM EDT
I really think you'd find more new players retained if you had more people in the New Players chatroom. After all, when I started off in New Players in CB2 there were people in there talking, chatting, conversing, joking, etc. and that made me feel far more welcome than the current New Players room would, where there are 7-9 people in there total at almost all times and 3/4 of those are the same vets that sit in there all day.
When everyone was told to go chat in Carnage, *that* is what I think was bad for the game. This? This allows new players and veterans alike to compete better. It shouldn't have much effect on retaining or inviting new players in, but it'll make the overall gameplay experience better, IMO. If not, then it didn't, whatever...but like I said, I think the 'retaining new players' bit will be unaffected by this.
Learning and notable growth both require BA. Missteps that we used to catch in the first 18 hrs., are now "retrain" or "fire those minions" on day 3. It's not actually more painful, but it seems like a bigger investment lost. It's more discouraging.
Also, those who are newly interested get frustrated at the wait, they think they will be "pwning" in 3 days, but only if they can "fight more". And they can't.
Early growth, with bad strats and general nakedness requires the "test BA" to lose a bunch of battles in looking for high-reward, one-BA wins. By the time they find their 5 good opponents, they're 1/3 of the way through their allotted BA, they need to train in another 10 fights, then it's wasting more BA to find more valuable opponents. Then they wait "forever" to start again.
May 14 2007 1:33 PM EDT
Implement the "alternate crazy Sutekh idea" for the NUB -- make it an additional amount of cheap BA (or even free) that can be purchased each day instead of a percent bonus on rewards. That gives the new players a bonus that has to be "earned" (yes, it's just clicking, but the whole game is basically clicking) while also giving them more battles to play with.
Also a lot more work than just doing something like Ranger's 320 cap and going back to "normal" rewards. That idea actually results in MORE BA than before that new players can use, and every time they come back to CB after a long-enough gap, they get to say, "Wow! 320 BA to burn! AWESOME!!!!"
Not sure that totally addresses what you are speaking about, Bast, but might speak to at least some of it.
May 14 2007 1:38 PM EDT
The improved untraining costs help counterbalance that smaller BA regen rate, Bast - there's a lot less of a penalty to retrain. I see what you mean about there being 'less BA, I want more fights', though. =)
May 14 2007 3:56 PM EDT
I was about to quit already and have sold all my stuff. Have stayed on since I don't have to login 5-6 times a day anymore to use up BA. About 3 times a day (morning, lunch and night) is enough to get my char to be trained at a "regular" pace. :)
"Implement the "alternate crazy Sutekh idea" for the NUB -- make it an additional amount of cheap BA (or even free) that can be purchased each day instead of a percent bonus on rewards. That gives the new players a bonus that has to be "earned" (yes, it's just clicking, but the whole game is basically clicking) while also giving them more battles to play with. "
This would give more meaning to the "Battles Challenged" stat
May 14 2007 4:44 PM EDT
Yes, it certainly would.
Just came back from a rapid reading of all the LERs. (That means since February.)
Highest count of active players (for 7 days) ever since then has been 403. This may not the exact number, but it is not more than 1 or two off. My point lies not in mathematical precision.
All I want to bring forth, is that right now, we have to highest amount of active players since February. 424. An increase of 20 or so.
Not much, but it would seem more people are active this month. Is it because of the change, I have no idea, and I have no way of verifying the numbers before February.
Thought i'd point that out, even if I dislike the change, it may have a positive effect.
I'm betting the USD rate of exchange drops to $5 because of this change. On the other hand, it is a lot easier to be competitive and advance this way.
The USD rate will stabilize before long.
I love the BA change. I'm making money even this low, and I'm shooting up MPR! :D <3
I don't have to worry about my mates wanting to pop out to see 28 Weeks later tonight, as I can spend my BA before I go to pick them up, and I won't have lost too much (if any) by the time I get back home.
It's more of a joy to log on to burn BA, I don't feel constrained by the 'need' to log on.
Plus anything that gets you out of the doldrums of the tiny levels quicker is brilliant! ;)
Agreed GL. It's more easier on the mind now. I don't have to constantly think "Ah Errrr Will I make it home in time as to not lose too much BA on this forge job".
More is being forged aswell, which is good... I suppose?
May 17 2007 1:25 PM EDT
I actually remember this pretty well;
I burned my BA and went to Uni. All was the same old. Normal reward rate, etc. 4 hours 40 minutes later, I was on the last leg home, trying to calculate exactly how much BA I had lost by going to Uni that day. I logged on and thought that I must have left home later than usual and left Uni earlier, since I had 159 BA. An hour later I actually read the changelog :P
But yeah. Doing stuff isn't hampered by the 3~ hour need to Blend some Carnage.
May 18 2007 7:24 PM EDT
I've been gone for about six months: Partly because of no computer but mostly because I was becoming too addicted to this game. The reason for my addiction is exactly as Jon opening post says, "a BA rate that makes you log on every couple of hours to be competitive is going to turn off alot of people..." Well it turned me off that is. I came back just to see if my Character was still alive and I checked around for changes when I noticed this! CB will now fit in PERFECTLY with my lifestyle!! Thank you so much Jon!!! Keep this change please, it has made me love this game even more than before!!!
I hated this change since day one. I still don't like it very much, but I am slowly getting used to it and some facts can't be denied.
-It makes my life easier when school gets rough, or when internship requires me to do the job of my superiors. (AKA babysitting a classful of comp newbies)
-It makes my character grow much faster.
-It makes me do insane CPs, as opposed to good CPs.
-It seems it DOES contribute to the number of active players around. (This will have to be confirmed by monitoring the active players count for a longer period of time, but for now, it's going up.) Heck, some people who had quit come back! And though I thought chat would die, it is still very much alive.
-Clanfighting is a little more competitive now.
This change was a brilliant move by Jon. In fact, it has made me log into chat MORE often, post in forums more often too, and has made me a generally more sociable person on CB.
In short, I was wrong on all fronts, concerning this change.
Let's keep things as they have been changed, it's all for the better.
I will add, to counter something I brought forth myself earlier on this thread, that the new players that come in lately are not anymore retarded or unpleasant than the regular CB player.
My fear of overflowing the place with WoW 10-year olds was unfounded.
Only point on which my opinion did not change: The randomness of rewards is insane, and it's even more apparent now, IMO.
May 18 2007 11:55 PM EDT
Since I haven't weighed in yet (I think) here are my 2 cents:
The change is very nice, and it actually allows me to remain semi competitive while also having time to spend on r/l things. It has actually made clan fighting much more fun since I don't have to worry about people fighting me while I am trying to use up my ba. My only gripe is what ash just posted, that is, the randomness in rewards is very large, and it seems to have been multiplied by 2 with the change. I see rewards from $250-600 and exp from 50-120 with three minions. While I am sure it all averages out, it would be nice if the randomness could be lowered a little bit.
This change has single handedly brought me back in to the game that I was about to quit.
Seriously, _everyone_ in my life hated this game, saying "oh, off to blend again are you?" sarcastically, and I could do nothing but shrug and say "stick it".
Now, I hear them complain half as often, _and_ get 'more' BA burned!
May 21 2007 3:54 PM EDT
I was ready to leave this game for good, too, before this change. R/l concerns are stressful for me right now, and CB has become a great escape once more.
I take back my earlier response/reaction and insert my new thoughts.
I like the change and I think it should stay. I think this was a gamble that paid off.
I just skimmed through this thread, (Ctrl+F'd "forging"), and saw all signs pointing towards this being a forging nerf...
There are other factors in play (MPR of forgers, number of forgers, etc.), but before this change, there were usually only two or three 2m nw /week forgers. now you almost need 3m to make the top 5...
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