Where have all the good times gone (in General)

OK, I struggled where to put this, I almost slipped it into Off-Topic, but figured general would be OK. As you may or may not know, I am a firm believer in the success of CB being directly related to the "health" of the community. I have been wracking my brains trying to figure out how this community ended up where it is, and why it has changed so signifficantly. There are other factors sure, some of the oldest and steadiest supporters of CB did not make the transition to CB2. I can say that while of late my interest has waned, I have been playing CB for a long time. I enjoyed CB1 and played it til the bitter end, but also joined CB2 Jan 1, and have played it ever since. Of late though, I have noticed my interest falling and wondering why? What is so different? Sure the game has changed, but the game always changes. While some of the changes were significant, I do not feel they are the cause of our disfunctional community. In a nutshell, I think it is the competition. In CB1 it seemed it was "us" the community, against the system. Or even us against Todd, but it always seemed that the community would be happy and support any success, to the point of actually helping them. When BCMoto was going for the biggest and baddest ELB in the game, and was challenging for the top spot, everyone was rooting for him, everyone wanted to be a part of his success. When I first started playing CB everyone seemed to be interested in my success. Everyone seemed to help me to achieve it. I got advice, gear, everything a person would need to not just start out, but start out strong. Those first few days made the difference for me, and the effort from those first few days from existing CB members has now led to years and years of my playing CB.

CB2 from the almost the very beginning was designed to present a level playing field. From the inclusion of tattoo and gear NW to the PR calculation to the NUB and NCB systems, the whole focus is, even you can take the top spot. So, look at that concept from a real human side. Even you can take the top spot. Now how would you do this? Would you help everyone else get to the top, so then you could crush them with all of your effort? Is it in your best interest to help someone, who say has a NUB, and with your help a decent set up. Now 2 months later he is beating your team and passing you by. You only have to have that happen a couple of times, and then you might ask yourself, why am I helping these people beat me? Especially if you yourself are competing for the top spot. In CB1 we "all" competed for the top spot, by rooting on anyone who could. In CB2 we root for ourselves to be #1.

Am I suggesting that competition is a bad thing. Certainly not overall I am not. I mean there are millions of examples in which competition is a great thing. Heck I will go as far to say in most cases it is a good thing. However; it is not a good thing for our community here on CB2. Instead of breeding brotherhood it breed mistrust. Instead of breeding support, it breeds, look out for number 1, me.

You might be saying to yourself, LOL nice imagination you have there Sefton. That is OK. I am not creating the post for any other reason that to create awareness. If you are aware or do not agree that's cool with me. Maybe awareness is all that is needed. I would be VERY happy if this was the case. I do not think it is, but I would be loved to be proved wrong. So where does this opinion come from? Well many places. If I tried to list all the examples that went to form my opinion, then this post would be 20 times longer than it is, and 19 times longer than it should be. Lets talk about a recent example. We will not be talking about names. This is NOT a blame game. I REFUSE to blame anyone for being human. This is simply the most recent most fresh in my mind example. There is no single person, nor groups of people that can be blamed for the current state of the CB community. It is what it is, and I believe it is, because of the intense competition.

Recently someone made a post saying Hey look guys I did well. While many said, hey good job, others said, oh but is it legitimate? Did you really do well or just APPEAR to do well. In the end, why would ANYONE care if it was legitimate or not if they did NOT care about the competition? Clearly some do, and clearly it is a BIG deal to them. Should it be or should it not be, is not only not my place to say, it is not YOUR place to say either. I can say I do not care about it. And because I do not, if I was inclined to post I would simply say good job and move on.

That is just one example and as you see it is as vague as I can make it. The point is this one example is not the problem, nor if the one example went another way, would it have shown problem solved. This a symptom and I believe the cause of the symptom is the competition.

Since I could post on a forum board I have hated when people complain and not presented a fix. I have been wracking my brain for months as to find this fix. I do not think one exists. CB2's system of competition is so ingrained into CB2, that to try to remove it would be futile, might as well start over and make CB3.

So what is the point? Well basically the point is, this is how our community is, and this is how it will be. There will be many attempts to correct the situation, but the game mechanics will fight them to the bitter end. Do I give up? Heck no, I rarely if ever give up. I am just posting MY own observations and MY own opinon on the subject. This is not some fact based treatise to prove things are this way or are not this way. This is simply me, looking at the community over a fairly long period of time, saying this is what I have observed, and this is why I think it happened. You are welcome to take my opinion anywhere you like, to the trash can or a plaque on your wall, it is still just one man's opinion.

Excellent post, and, I think, a pretty good vision of what is going on here. Of course I can't go back to CB1, been here only one year now, (Already?!)

I am far from a good debater. Even if what I say is often correctly worded and all, my English will never get enough practice to be able to permit me to give my opinion on things here in it's exact form.

However, I can say this, and I will repeat myself, I know.

PEOPLE, YOU NEED TO CHILL.

That is all.

Come to Chat for a good time! =D

Excellent post Sefton! Points out exactly what is going on, and i miss the community of cb1 and the start of cb2. Most of the people are still around, but not that many, and i think it is exactly because of these reasons!

I'm still waiting for that lunch sometime, =) My girlfriend and i are planning on going to The Olde Spaghetti Factory sometime soon if you and wld wanna meet us up there! =)

Back on topic, in cb1, if someone got to be unbeatable, everyone would teamup to try and take it over for everyone, not just themselves, never happens around here, =/ And people made jokes out of something on cb1 that people will get flamed for here on cb2 which could make their Rep go down drastically. Sad really.

I like otters, ocelots, and mooseses.

Good post Sefton.

Oh... and Sefton... they're right behind you. Just got to look past those bushes, nuclear power plant, and that substitute teacher you hated in high school.

Interesting points Sefton; However, I would like to point out that had CB2 simply been created as a modification of CB1, I don't think we would be having this conversation.

Just imagine if Jon had figured out a way to import all the old characters and everything from CB1 directly into the new system he created; then instead of 2 games, we would have just one. I think one of the major problems at that time (over a year ago now, please people, can we please get over this?) was that CB was allowed to become a splintered community.

Either way, I appreciate that Jon has worked hard to try and make CB2 the great equalizer ensuring that everyone has a fair chance at success in the game. I only wish that more of this game required, or at least facilitated more direct communication between people, and rewarded collaboration (outside of clans).

It seems that most of the CB system is designed to prevent fraud, and stop anyone and everyone from getting any significant advantage over anyone else by any other means that simply fighting. I actually do think this kinda sucks, because it takes any surprise out of this game. Every time I play this game, I know for one thing that CB is a grind to the top every second I play.

There is very little "random" or surprise element in CB, which did make CB1 exciting. A few examples:

Equipment is only available to those with money, there are no quests or anything else that makes this equipment available; how boring.

FeeBlender, everything in CB costs money, which discourages all kinds of things, not the least of which is "interacting with other people". Want to try something new? Better have fat stacks of cash first. Boring!

The clan system; and this I cannot emphasize enough; is broken, all it takes is a handful of the most powerful characters to dominate clan ranking. It's the same every single day. Characters below the top have to fight to simply exist in the clan world, much less compete, why is this? Because.

There is no meaningful interaction between high-score characters and low-score characters. I understand that high-score means you are doing good, but at least have something for the "king of the hill" to do besides just "be" at the top.

I also agree. I was an old CB1 player and yes, the community was much different. There is too much flaming and trashing of other people around here, not to say it didn't happen before, but it has definitely gotten worse. When I came back I was going to try and make a run for the top, but now I'm not so sure I even want to because it seems no matter I do to get there I'm going to be flamed for it. To all the people that are posting their agreement I guess we're all on the same page, and to anyone that might flame this post it just goes to show you what the rest of us are talking about.

/me hoses off CB2 with cold water then hands everyone a towel and a cookie. that should cool things off a bit :)

I agree that the community aspect appears to have changed here.
That's the problem, now anything I have to say is immediately rated as trash by some community members.
Back when I started and before I disagreed with some people I got immense help. Some unknown newbie ... people gave me advice, they loaned me money. In short the community was there for me.
These days, the "community" seems to be more about "I'm good and you're not. Let's keep it that way."
It is sad and I can see why people are getting out. Without the fun community and the support of a friendly community it is just a grind as Sefton said. I know some people would be glad to see the upstart new guy and his opinions go away, but sorry, I'm not actually planning on doing that yet.

Lovely Post Sef. One thing I think helped 'bleed' the competition in CB1 was tournaments.

Limited controlled events all players could take a part in, that had a fun feeling and factor.

Cheaters and bad eggs were present, and were rooted out by the tourny admin.

But in general, they were fun, head to head comeptitions, that (almost?) everyone supported, and the winners were not derilled nor envied.

Maybe because they were all controlled, and you had no outside influence.

It wasn't possible to 'buy' yourself the top stop in a CB1 tourny. ;P

You're right there Seft, and it's a situation that has polarised our fair community, and I'm as guilty as others in taking sides. When, really, what I should have been doing is what I always have done and go about my CB business with a smile on my face and a bit of friendly banter.

Things like this come and go though; we've gone through periods where the dominant mood of the place was creativity and imagination (Hello Barzoo!); I think now we're going through CB's long night of the tulwars; it'll pass I suspect and a different phase will happen. We've had a long winter of arguing; people are already moving on; here comes the sun and all that...


Good to see ya in the forums Seft. Hope you and yours are OK. :)

Oh, and we also know too much aobut how CB2 works. There have been some great and thorough people working at the CB mechanics, and using things like free retrains and shed loads of persoanl time experimenting, to figure out how this game works.

Nothing wrong with that, it's something I find fasinating.

But we've gone too far. ;) Just about everything is known. We can now break down strategy into mathematical equations and figure out what works, or will work before it's done.

New players don't have the mystery of CB for long any more, it's all recorded for everyone to see.

There's no real 'multiple' discussion of opinions on what to do, or how to do it.

We all know too much, and it's passed down.

I think Jon needs to add quite a bit of new stuff, and keep as much of how it works hidden from us for as long as possible. Add some more mystery backt the game, get us thinking abut it, rather than ourselves. ;)

Good post Sefton, and a good response by Verifex. The lack of anything random, or different has made CB2 very... monotonous.

Tourney's were great on CB1, I never really took part in a tourney before, but I did get into some great conversations about "x's great idea for the next tourney".

I can predict exactly what I'm going to do in CB2 tomorrow: I will wake up, burn ba, wait 6 hours, the burn ba, wait 6 hours, then burn ba. Maybe I will reply to a post... finish ba then go to sleep. I know this because I did it today, yesterday and the day before then. I'm not saying to bring back cb1 or change the game to make it more like cb1 because this ain't cb1 BUT something is needed, some sort of variation.

I want to add, that by my nature I am a fixer. I really wish I could fix things. I do not think I can. BUT this does not mean they cannot be fixed or that they cannot fix themselves, and I do not want anyone to think I do not STRONGLY hope that happens one way or another, I just for the life of me cannot see how.

All that said, I only have GOOD wishes for the community and hope that anyone who reads my post understands, I only say what I say because I care about what happens to CB, not so I can be #1, but so that everyone can enjoy CB as much as I once did, and hope to soon in the very near future.

Someone asked me recently what happened how come I have not played as much of late. I came up with the usual, real life, etc. because well, it is at least partial true. The real reason is the forums. I used to LOVE posting on forums. I mean I would log on, burn some BA start reading forums. If I finished forums before I finished BA oh well, next time :) Now I log in, see a few posts, go hmmmmm no thank you and log out. So there you go. Everyone has their own reasons for playing. Mine has of late been forums. Unfortunately now it seems, you either offer something up to be flamed, flame someone else, or talk about the weather. Sorry, just not my kind of forum :)

"Unfortunately now it seems, you either offer something up to be flamed, flame someone else, or talk about the weather. Sorry, just not my kind of forum :)"

:)

I said in another post a little while ago, we make the Drama, as there's nothing else to talk about.

To be honest, I don't post as much any more. Even though I have a lot more time at home. It's not due to Emma. I just have nothing to say. Nothing to really contribute. :(

"Would you help everyone else get to the top, so then you could crush them with all of your effort?"

This is what I do, to a point. While in chat, I routinely post screenshots of my home screen to aid people in beating me, and help people find ways to win against me. Similarly, I ask for help from others in beating them. It's weird, but it's fun. When I started my NUB, I was chasing kevinleong, who had just started his. Mikel then started King of Pain a few days later, and it was an interesting dynamic between everyone. Kevin helped me to beat him, I helped him to beat me. We went back and forth for a very long time until circumstances made him stop playing.

I'd like to think that everyone would do that sort of thing to try to enhance the competition.

There's a good point I just made -- enhance the competition. You can't get rid of it, but you sure can make it better. Ranger constantly gives out all sorts of equipment to people for free so that they can tune their strategies, seeing if an extra +100 to DB will do anything, for example. I convinced someone.. I think Flamey.. to use my big MH to win against more people. I think it worked pretty well for him.

Try coming into chat more often, Sefton. It's very different than it used to be. About a year ago, chat was about as pleasant as a bed of nails, with several bad seeds acting like jerks. That's not the case anymore, and I think the answer to your observations on competition may lay there.

Besides, I miss talking to you :)

"We all know too much, and it's passed down. "

I disagree entirely. I think knowing the information makes even more discussion possible. Whereas before, it was more along the lines of "I think this is better" "Well I think this is better" with nothing to back it up other than gut. Now, we can actually put time and effort into coming up with a very detailed strat. Look at Nerevas -- he's constantly recalculating things to fine tune the best way to do something.

The difference is that now that the information is available, you need to do much more work before saying "X is better". No longer does "because that's what I think" cut it. Since it requires more effort before making random claims, people are less inclined to really do it. It's easier to just go with your gut.

To say that having knowledge about the games reduces ingenuity is to miss the point of having the knowledge. Once we learned how electricity worked, we created the most advanced technology the world has ever seen. Now that we know how Evasion works, we can create some very intricate, well designed, thought out, complete, effective strats that are likewise even harder to combat. That's a good thing.

Sefton, there have been some good forging threads, I think. No flaming that I have been aware of, and we figured out a lot of stuff! *smile* We'd love to have more folks calculating forge efficiency factors!

I could make up some pretty accurate numbers ;)

NS, I thought about C&P-ing the Eva Wiki Entry, but that would be silly. ;) It's all there. For everyone.

When we didn't know, that fuelled discussion. Does it work in Ranged? How ? Should I do 'x'? No I tihnk 'y'. You've missed 'z'. It promoted discussion and interaction.

What do I need to ask about Eva now? What can we discuss about it's use or usage?

(Just an example)

Eak! Don't take that last post as "The Wiki is a bad thing". ;)

It's not. I don't think secrets should be hoarded. I openly discuss my start. How to make it better, and how to beat me.

;)

OK I have to admit I do not have forge posts turned viewable, perhaps I should and see what is up :)

Hmm, with regards to knowing too much I can see the point being made.

Heck after figuring out the MPR vs EXP formula and the Forge Rating for characters and have concluded the following:

1.) Figuring it out is fun
2.) Having your theories tested and shown to be correct is great
3.) Knowing these facts kinda sucks (in the same way that solved mysteries are never as exciting, well almost never)

CB does entertain me considerably and the only thing I really want to know is when I started on CB1 (2003?!?)

Oh and conversations such as this (intelligent and reasonable) are always fun.

I was half tempted to make my own thread to talk about my own take on all of this, but I figured a thorough post will cover it well enough. Although it is discouraging to see it get buried.

First of all, well said Sefton. The community is key to our miniature world that we know as CB. And I think I would have to agree with you, the good times have slightly degraded from CB1. Here is my take.

Many major changes have been made since CB1. While these might have been good, and made sense on their own, I can't help but get the feeling that together they have led us to a single minded competition oriented game that can be unfriendly to the average user.

First, tournaments were a big part of CB1. They allowed you to take a few weeks off from the daily grind and get some good cash and hopefully some nice gear, along with a pat on the back from your peers. Without tournaments, the only way to win anything on here is to be at the top... and that's reserved for only one clan.

Second, we lost a third of the game play one day and many do not even realize it. Without camping, all we can basically do now is grind or forge. And the only reason to forge is to grind slightly better. Less options means more boredom. No longer do we have the opportunity to get rich quick, or have that lucky day. My first strategy at the start of CB2 was formed from the rares I camped. That element of randomness added something special... and now it's gone.

Third, I agree with what others have said here, the clan system is broken. The players with the most cash and xp on their teams have banded together and no longer fight for the top spot but simply maintain it. This has caused several problems. One is resentment from every other player in the game that there is no possible way to take the top spot. Another problem is a sense of entitlement and that they "own" the top spot. They claim they fight the most and work the hardest and cooperate the most. But in other threads we see they fight 10k or 30k less battles than the people they beat. And sure, cooperating with your buddies is great, but this form of collusion is unfair to someone doing it all on their own. And that just leads to more resentment and player-vs-player hate.

Fourth, the NUB and NCB system is broken. The problems with these two bonuses are more of a problem to CB than any other glitch or mistake has ever presented, throughout CB1 or CB2, in my opinion. They effectively kill the community. Sefton, you hit the nail on the head when you said that people do not want to help support the new players because they can pass you. It is absolutely true. Sure, a person in new players will get lots of guidance and advice and directions, but then they are cut off. No one wants to help someone else when they know the other person will easily surpass them in short time. Resentment builds from the people that have played for months and months, or even years, against the people that show up and 3 months later beat them in 3 rounds every time. In CB1, people would make a new character, and yes it would take a while to get it to rise in the rankings, but it was very much possible. Why does CB2 need to reward mediocrity and just being new? Why not go back to the CB1 model of rewarding hard work and dedication? People could get instant rewards back then too, with the easy to use character market.

I can honestly not think of a reason against cheating. I have put in my time here. I have played and played, clicked and clicked, forged and forged, and never gotten anywhere. While I fight on, gaining a small step each day, it is easy to see other players with more cash, or the lucky so called "new-person" whiz by with their bonuses. This is discouraging and hurts the community. Maybe it's time to sell out (all the way this time), and quit CB. And once I move, maybe I'll start up with a full NUB of my own. Can you name a reason not to? Sure, I enjoy the people, but they will still be here. Within a few months I will easily overtake the spot I would be at. And if I moved to a new area, it would be impossible to tell I was me. And the saddest part of this whole ordeal, is we have no idea how to tell how many of those NUB people are just vets that changed areas. Charming.

I love CB. I hope my staying around for this long has proven that. But when so many things go against you, it's hard to keep grinding away. Besides, CB rewards you for quitting- TWICE. Once with cash if you sell out, and a second time for restarting somewhere else, with your NUB. A win win for the dishonest, a lose lose for the community and Jon.

Thanks for reading.

"What do I need to ask about Eva now? What can we discuss about it's use or usage? "

Now we can get in to the real meat of the discussion in terms of what's better in what scenario. It can be of a much lower level, with specifics and research to back it up. The wiki provides the data, not the answer. The answer lays in your ability to figure out just what you need to make a strat work.

Do I add DB or EB? AoI? How will that affect things? If I untrain my DX and boost Evasion, will that translate into a win? Will that keep the enemies at bay if I can boost Evasion to 200? Where is the best cut off point for Evasion? What Evasion level is the sweet spot for *my* build and *my* minion xp dispersion? How much Evasion do I need to compete at the 6BA level? 7BA? If I can't get to Evasion 150, should I try something else? Is the boost in defensive DX worth the loss of offensive DX? At what point in the Evasion graph should I switch to DB? Why there, and not somewhere else? Should I never switch to DB? Is Evasion powerful enough once I get into melee? If I can get to Evasion (200), should I still try to nullify damage, or will the dodging be enough? Should I try to reduce damage or increase dodging given an XP of XX that can bring me to an Evasion of YY?


... All this and more, on the next Round Table Discussion...

See, the thing is.. nobody gets in to those kinds of conversations. They require a lot more thought than "Yeah, that sounds good." The point I'm making is that the information in the wiki has opened the door to very in-depth discussion on a vast array of strategy. Only a very few people, however, desire to walk through it.


I frankly like it better this way. Discussions in the past held very little water, and were based on feeling and instinct, not factual data. Therefore, the outcome was often very unhelpful in terms of translating into more wins at the end of the week. Now, things are different. I personally have wonderful discussions of strategy, especially considering my current character. Look at what I've done -- Exbow, UC, RBF... and I made it to #13. You think that happened without many discussions between myself, OB, Miandrital, and several others? Do you think I could have even remotely made this work before we had the knowledge to build this kind of strat? Seriously, now...

The clan system may be broken, however it is not a large part of the game.

What is the difference between number 1 and number 10 clan?

15% bonus compared to 12.8%.

But give the time and effort BR has put into becoming the top clan, I can certainly see why people want to change things for their own good. BR has the number 1,2,3 and 8 Clan MVP's for the year. Guess that means nothing. Two of us have made characters from 1 MPR and the other 2 bought them (characters available to all). There are plenty of people who spend much more USD then I have who can band together and take the top spot if they want. But, let us punish those who are successful. But all this was in another thread. However, it likely will change given the resentment "every other players in the game" has.

People say I am argumentative, but C'Mon. Is this not the same thing in reverse?

But I do agree and have always stated that the NUB in particular is counterproductive for the game.

A new player, possibly a multi, zooms past experienced players and over 2/3 sell out when their NUB is over. A large percentage of the NUB's sell for USD on top of all this.

The NCB on the other hand, IMO, is good. Lets those players who want to have a fresh start. Even without money to buy all BA, they can can get in the upper ranks.

I completely agree about Tournaments. When I started CB1, there was no way I would ever complete for the top or get near the top. But the tourneys let me have a fresh start each week to compete in something. That is a huge loss for cb2.

As per camping, unless Jon can make it fair to all, it still has to be gone from the game. People using cheats just made it unfair to all. There were great campers, Sefton included that did not use the cheats, but they were too rampant for fair play. If Jon can make it fair to all, then please bring camping back. Yes, I have changed my mind on camping now that it is gone for so long.

However, I will say this. I know I am responsible for a part of the discourse in the game. But.. I am certainly not alone in my posting. There are plenty of others who do the same if not worse.

And.. about the post Sefton so careful tippy toed around, would it be great to have everyone do a self gratification post about every accomplishment done? Even if it was done via a secondary method? Next time, I will refrain from posting just keep the laughs to myself.

"If Jon can make it fair to all, then please bring camping back."


I suggested an idea a while ago that I still think is great -- make items spawn for random people at random times, possibly inversely proportionate to the amount of times you visit the store (perhaps not). Basically, it makes it so that you don't have to click ultra-fast to get the rare. The only purpose of cheating was to click faster than anyone else. Remove that part, and there's no bonus to cheating.

Basically, determine a person who gets to see the next rare spawn first. Give him ten seconds to buy it from when he enters the store. If he doesn't, it either goes to everyone as per the old system, it gets deleted, or it goes to someone else for ten seconds.

In that same vein, have a "Buy me!" link appear randomly while fighting. If you ignore it and fight on, either because you don't want it or you missed it or whatever, you lose it. You can then buy the item for store prices, again based on some timer. Heck, throw a little AJAX in there, and you can have the link disappear from the page without refreshing it once the timer expires.

There are a number of ways you can handle it to achieve the same effect -- make it so that cheating doesn't help you. Then people can cheat all they want.

If it matters, and it may not, but I like knowing more than not knowing. I will admit I like figuring it out or discovering it, more so than using it, but that is simply the puzzle solver in me. I much prefer to to know what effect one thing will have, instead of simply going with the loudest voice in the room. So, I personally, in my opinion do not think this is a bad change.

/me just had an epiphany

All of you MUST have gotten this before me. And it's simple. Once the NCB was created, the NUB became, quite simply, worthless =D. It allows new players to sell out, but there is no real motivation to stick around!

Of course. Get rid of NUB. Let them learn the ropes. After two months, allow them the NCB. Change the NCB to allow it to give you cash (not at the same rate as NUB, but enough so that a player can at least marginally support a NCB off itself) and then make it so the NCB lasts 4 months, and then there is a 2 months cool off from the NCB.

Then, motivation for new players to stick around, learn the ropes, weed out the sell outs, give the vets a little more fun and variation. I don't know if you all agree, but I like this idea!

Sheesh, Jon goes and makes it a more level playing ground (now everyone can spend all of their ba per day) and you still have something to complain about.

The advantages of the top characters has been taken away, log in more, move up the charts faster. I pounded my way up via NCB, Sut did this already as well. I think with my proven track record, this is what? my 4th NUB/NCB that I've taken to the top of the charts? This one will be the biggest in MPR and will be my final one.

I did not comment on this "person's thread about getting into the top 10", no point, I don't care whether he triple/double or did it legitimately. There is a bane for every strat and he's set himself up that way so there's no real reason to not believe he's got a decent strat going. On the other hand, if he double tapped, then he'll know it and the victory will be hollow, not my concern really.

Oh and you guys still think the clan thing is out of control? I guess if you guys continue to whine about it, Jon will eventually line the silver plate that he's already given you, but based on top clan MVPs for the last year, I don't really see to many of you that deserve what you aren't already getting.

You can take this anyway you want. Call me what ever makes you happy. I don't really care. I've put my "time in" into building my character the way I please, so what's stopping you from getting a decent ncb character? You won't miss much/if any BA now. So do it.

Huh????

I make a post saying this is what I am seeing in the community and why, and you make a reply about, well lets see a more level playing field about the new BA rate, the lack of advantage for top players, your skills which are obvious in creating a character, clan points, and then an invitation to insult or praise you.

Huh???

And P.S. Ranger this is not about you or me, this is about our community being a product of the CB2 environment. I TRIED to keep it as impersonal as I possibly could and yet still make a point.

let us petition jon to make the front door just a bit narrower thus blocking entry to those with extremely big heads.

I don't really care about CB1, it's over and done with move on. If you want, substitute BR for Todd and it sounds the same to me.

You completely ignored my remarks about the top 10 posts and focused solely on what you wanted. I knew that would probably happen if I put it in the middle of a reply.

There are currently quite a high number of contests going on right now that fit into the fun category, I'm sorry if you don't have the time to enjoy them.

Ah, the good times, I remember those. Which brings us this song:

Ain't no sunshine when she's gone. It's not warm when she's away. Ain't no sunshine when she's gone. She's gone much too long. Any time she goes away.

Carnageblender is a relatively simple game, you find a nice strategy and stick to it, over time you'll get somewhere.

The reason why Jonathan introduced the NUB (I believe, could be wrong), later NCB, was to persuade new players to keep coming back to the game, since it gave them the sense they could get to the top (with time and effort, mind you). The introduction of the new player room and mentoring was done back in CB1, this to help the incoming players to learn the fundamentals of the game, the recent new player forum is just an addition to this.

I admit, the idea of persuading new players to stay is a good thing, 'the more the merrier.' However, now new players have an advantage, the NUB, where once a new player had to work for while to get a few million, it can now be done in a relatively short time span. So PR wise and cash wise, new players can achieve a respectable level much quicker.

I feel, Carnageblender has lost a lot of its luster, the gameplay (for me at least) hasn't changed much at all, we get the new items, odd skill. Recently, more tweaks to the aesthetics of the game. But there hasn't been any revolutionary changes, possible a new set of spells that the community can experiment. A major part of the 'community working as a whole,' as Sefton mentions, was mainly in CB1, the dynamics of the game were not fully understood, now in CB2, we've come to a point where most of the games inner workings have been discovered. Another factor, I believe, is that the 'climb to the top' is a tedious long process, especially for the older non-NUB players, back in CB1, tournaments were a very refreshing 'escape' from the normal fighting ladder, with tournaments you can be a little bit crazy with strategy because the goal was only a week away, not several long tedious months. Without tournaments, everyone is looking for the ultimate, streamline, perfect character, the fun remains, but it's not in playing, it's in winning, it's in getting to the top.

I must admit though, Sefton you mention a lot of the CB1 player left when CB1 ended, knowing the drawing power of this game, I have a suspicion that some of the newer player, may not be as 'new' as they seem. ;P

Huh??? again, are you talking to me Mikel?

You seem to be saying you a lot, but I am not sure. Did I say anything about the game not being fun? I said the community was not a fun one, but I never asked for the game to be changed in any way, not once. I would like to see the community change. I have said repeatedly that I do not think a simple game change will change anything. I did not comment on it, because I am not trying to change the game, just the community.

I did not comment on the middle of your post, because well the only thing I could say was good job I am glad you didnt post. Didnt figure that was what you wanted to hear, so instead of saying something I did not think you wanted to hear, I said nothing. Or more accurately I did not know how to say hey good job glad you didnt post without sounding mean or facious. I would not mind if others took that route more often.

Again Mikel I have no idea who you are talking to. Before you accuse me of not reading your post completely perhaps you should make sure you have read mine. To be honest I read your entire post several times, became puzzled, came back read it some more, then posted huh???

I did not say that CB1 was better, nor that I wanted CB1 back. I said, I (which is also composed of me and myself) think the community was better, and here is why I do not think this community is doing as well. That is all I said. Where you got all this defending of game changes and defending your own non-posting in a thread is beyond me, you sure you are responding to the right thread?

Sefton, the byplay you are experiencing right now is what is hurting the forums. See my QB entry regarding the level of negativity abound. It is probably best to ask people to stay on-topic and to post off-topic or side-topic responses in a separate thread. I avoided all confrontation with Angel of Death doing this in my "It's Out!" thread. It's worth a shot.

Regarding your original post, I made two on-topic replies.. even posing several possible courses of action. What do you think of them?

Well, I mean, the first one is great. I mean back in the day I used to do that a lot with Ranger and Freed, sharing strats and equipment. I had plenty of fun :)

As far as chat goes, to be honest, the client just bugs me. Its a personal quirk. Cannot help it, but I find it difficult to use.

I backed you up on the knowledge of the game. I like it. Much preferred to the alternative. I hope that does not change because of my post. Again, just my personal preference.

I wont touch camping with a 10 foot pole no way no how. My views are darn near public knowledge, and it would make the game more fun for me, not sure it would make the community any better.

I can honestly say I have worked through all the permutations I could think of, and could not determine a solution. If someone on accident or on purpose posts a solution that works in this thread I would be VERY happy. I have not commented on the various fixes individually because they are all good and bad in their own right, and again I am unconvinced it can be changed through mechanical tweaks. I hope I am wrong, I want to be wrong, but in the end, I do not think I am.

(I hope this is on topic, a different spin, perhaps, on our ability to use a better portion of BA now...)

One reason some folks use(d) USD is/was to make up for not being able to play as much as others. That is totally cool. Heck, I think USD is OK in the current state CB has become (as long as no one expects me to have to spend it to be dutifully competitive).

Now we can all use our BA, or at least that much more. I can go 8 hours and 40 minutes! That's a long time. Even at 10/10. one can almost get a decent night's sleep before staring down the loathsome barrel of a cruel 160.

So why stop there? We've leveled the ability to use BA, so let's level the rest. The only non-level thing remaining is the injection of USD. The USD aspect of the game can lead to multi-ing, NUB mis-use (if a NUB selling out is considered such, I don't much care either way), and for some (not all), it leads to a general discontent in the "system".

I've always been a fan of doing away with all transfers to get rid of USD. Not sure what would be done with all the existing wealthy, though. I would really love to see what a pure BA-burning atmosphere would be like! Heck, even buff forging a bit so that people really had to choose between building their items vs. fighting, achieving a good, continuous balance.

Having "haves" and "have-nots" almost always leads to conflict. Some folks care, some folks don't, the world keeps turning...sure. But USD is even more than just about haves and have-nots... I think it can sometimes give people a sense of ownership and entitlement that burrows its way into the core "fun" of the game. People start talking about "work" and "earning" in something where the joy should be in the playing itself, yes? Could that be because of the very literal investment some people have made?

Probably sounds like a derail of the topic, but the influence of net worth definitely has a community impact. And it is an impact I saw in both CB1 and CB2. Maybe it seems more pronounced here because USD (and trade of CB1 dollars) was integral to so many up and coming folks right out of the gate here in CB2. Dynasties emerged almost immediately. Sefton built a dynasty with Gyaxx based on camping, but sadly, that aspect had to be removed. so, that left the USD dynasties to thrive. Even a small investment at the beginning of CB2 could help a team get some nice farms, get some rentals going, get some nice buy-and-sell gains. Acorns became mighty, mighty oaks.

Now that we can all use our BA effectively, shouldn't the acorns be based completely on that?

Sure my friend, I mean its a suggestion that you hope would create a better community, sounds on topic to me. From a general point of view, if a game change (versus a brand new version) could affect the kind of change in the community I think is needed, it would have to be of your suggested magnitude. A complete paradigm shift or a complete reversal in overall game direction. That kind of shake up is more likely to cause a change in the community.

I have and still do disagree with your methodology in this case, but I am not going to debate that, because thats not the idea of the post. The idea is to stimulate thought and discussion, and perhaps by complete luck or accident stumble on a solution, or if nothing else, read some interesting ideas and have a little fun :)

I think as often happens my message gets distorted, through my own fault. The basic message was supposed to be this.

CB2 is all about competition against each other. Because of this, it creates an certain environment. This environment has bred our community. I do not like this community as much as I liked the previous one. I do not think you can change the community without changing the environment. I do not think simple game changes can change the environment. I hope I am wrong, but I really hope you can figure it out :)

:) tornys would be nice... but we have not have any in so long... is there an accual reason behind that? or did is like disappear by itself? :) just a question :)

It's not mainly directed at you Sefton, it's more so for Verifex and Vaynard both talking about clans being broken.

one thing I would like to see is instead of auctions is that NS's Idea about items being introduced, maybe as your spending ba doing something (forging or fighting) a random item pops up and gets added to your inventory automatically.

I was never a fan of camping only because it seemed like only a small handful of people ever got the items.

Well, I sat here and thought about witty retorts and things to say back on the broken clans debate, and you know what? It doesn't matter. I'm not asking to eat off this silver platter of yours, Mikel. BR can keep all the shiny dishware they want. I do not appreciate you inferring that I want your bonus for myself. I was always happy with whatever I got, and always will be. I haven't even taken place in the clan rat race in some time.

And I can't frankly blame you for feeling the way you do. You have a good thing going. If everyone puts up decent numbers, you're guaranteed 15%. Only through extreme force of will could another clan crank out the CP necessary to compete. Well, at least until the farming of them began.

But I honestly think this only serves to strengthen Sefton's point, this "Number one or nothing" approach seems to be hurting CB. By being ultra-competitive, and defending it with a ridiculously overreaching ferocity, we are chasing out the bread and butter of the gaming industry, the casual gamer.

People play to have a good time, to win, and want something to show for it. We can't say, "I've camped this this and this!" or "I won the last tournament!" or even "My clan was #1 for half a day!" anymore. Those accomplishments have all been effectively removed from the game. Even MPR, the most commonly used measure of how your team is, is now worthless with teams going usually for small amounts over transfer fees.

So what can the typical player say they've accomplished on CB? "Look! I have a sword that's 74x800+70! It's almost to the 10th biggest one in the game!" CB is neutered right now. Here's hoping Jon is willing and able to get it back in the game!

Every MMO alive has a subset of players that are die-hard hard core gamers who have amazing stats and are have achieved amazing heights. CB is no different. I fail to see how that subset of players can detract from the community, especially given the helpfulness of everyone who falls into that category (and that category is not limited to the entire membership list of BR). On the contrary, I think here on CB, those elite players are more helpful than in any other game.

It wasn't long ago that Mikel added himself back to the mentor list. A person came into chat requiring help because his assigned mentor wouldn't answer any questions or provide assistance (the player had the wonderful luck of receiving the game's creator as his mentor). Mikel then went and signed up. Shortly thereafter, he had the largest number of mentees.

There isn't a player that's been here for more than 6 months who hasn't benefitted from bountiful strat help and free rentals from Ranger.

I don't want to start a littany of good deeds (we have a contest for that), but the point is that in THIS game, dedicated players HELP the community. That is exceedingly uncommon in the world of the MMORPG.


Here's another idea to help the community grow -- talk to new players. I asked the most recent new player totally on a whim what would make him stick around. You know what? He gave a pretty cool response. Make a concerted effort to really utilize the new player forum for more than just "Hi!" -- that's not exactly the intent.

Here's another idea -- if you take issue with a post in a thread, don't derail the thread and kill the conversation with aggression (we all do it, myself included). Start a new thread with your responses, and post a link in the first one if you really want to. You'd be amazed how effective that is... On the few occassions I've done it, it diffused the entire situation. This thread is a good example -- don't derail it to rehash old arguments (All we need is someone to mention seekers, and it's clinched). Start a new thread to attack the clan system if that's your intent. Clans, bonuses, camping -- they've all been rehashed multitudes of times. Why not try to put on a thinking cap and come up with a few new ideas here? I keep trying, and would love a good discussion on them.

One last thing -- to Sefton, I commissioned muon to build a newer, better chat client. Try it out.

Ok some of you may have talked to me once or twice, most of you haven't, but as a somewhat new player (less than 1 yr old) heres my 2 cents.

I created my first character on August 15, 2006, with no knowledge of a CB1, or any knowledge of this game what so ever. It looked interesting, so i figured i'd give it a shot. Created my first team, went for a tank team and learned from there.

I learned later on that Simply put, I didn't think I could afford a tank team without injecting USD into the game, something I simply wasn't willing to do. Revamped to a mage team which I've been working on ever since.

Since joining I've read alot of the topics that pop up, some of them quite inventive and fascinating, so which are just unhappy people with nothing better to do.

I have no hopes of ever making it to the top, nor in my opinion would I want to, for the simple fact, among the top players, I sense alot of discontent, either with changes that have been made, changes that won't ever be made, or just alot of people complaining cause their stat doesn't work against another player.

People, it's a game. It has been since it was launched, and should remain so. Yes I broke down and i've invested some USD into the game, but with no regrets. Would I be where I am now without it? Yes but it would have taken me longer. Choice I made, and the same choice everyone has the right to make for themselves. And for those that can't afford to, there's always been people willing to use usd for in-game items.

For the new players, we're in the age where graphical games rule all, has been since they launched. The type of people that stay in a game like this are those of us that remember when there was nothing better, those with little time, money, or just looking for a different experience.

As for people "selling out" there's always been a crowd that does this in any game that will allow it. There always will be people looking to make a quick buck with little effort.


To try and shorten this up a bit from alot of the things I would like to say, this game is fine the way it is. The people that have nothing to do but complain about this change, that change, or the changes that aren't happening are what brings it down. There is always a competition going on, just to see how far you are going to make it, how far you're willing to push yourself, is what makes it worthwhile.

Thats just my opinion, Flame on.

Oh my god. A post about peace has turned into another argument...

Love and peace everybody. :)

Lovely to hear from you, Seft.

Great post old clan boss buddy :). I totally agree that things have changed over the last 9 months over here.
I also would like to state that I have found chat more interesting of late with the likes of tscm, mimic, no ear :) and many others. Strat talk abounds and then cascades into some stupid conversations (usually my fault).

I wont even go the cb1/cb2 route because it has been done many times before. but just to say that wldflower andold cb1 member used to constantly give away base gear to new players. She also used to set up sales for people and format them correctly.

We have several players over here doing the same thing which is nice. I do hate the recent posts (seft mentioned one in particular) where there are almost personal attacks on people. Get a life - its a game.

As far as a solution to this I am in the same boat as seft - cant really think. The game certainly need a boost but not necessarily in the gameplay aspect (well apart from getting rid of EC - jk ).

Maybe a suggestion that came up before about getting more clan-centric. Maybe setting up monthly clan tournament as opposed to 'me me me' tournaments. This game would be boring without the clan aspect imho so maybe we should encourage that aspect more.

WOW Hi Freed :)

Good to hear from you as well. I just may have to stop by chat to say hi if nothing else :)

I agree with most of it being because there is little mystery about the game.
Many a time I've answered questions with 'I think....' and been shot down because I haven't trawled through several wiki pages on a daily basis.
I like for there to be unknowns in a game and to go with what seems like a good or fun idea rather than what has been worked out as the best option.
I think CB has become too much like the scenario of buying a decent looking point and click adventure and downloading the walkthrough before you even start.
This results in many threads being about data collection and getting a resulting formula rather than back and forth discussions of how useful we believe something to be.
The biggest worldwide debates come from issues which cannot easily be solved by a few data points yet we insist on getting proof for one side or another destroying any possible debates to carry on.

All this brings me back to my original statement that the game needs more otters.

Zog, why would you want to live in the dark ages where people have arguments over whether Eye of Newt or Frogs Legs is the proper ingredient for the Spell of Cure Blindness? It's preposterous to say that game related debates that lack any valid information to back up either side are even remotely useful.

CB is growing. No longer is "I think" acceptable. Now you have to have legitimate facts to back up wild claims. In the beginning, a 1 MPR character could compete, since on Jan 1, everyone was 1 MPR. Currently, a 1 MPR character won't be able to do much until he grows. Luckily, we have a bonus for that. Apply that logic to game related knowledge. You can't go far in a strategy debate with "1 MPR" of knowledge anymore. Previously, anyone could make up random 'I think' posts and it'd be perfectly ok. We're growing up now, and you have to be much bigger than "1 MPR". Luckily, we now have the wiki as our NUB/NCB for knowledge over the game so you can actually learn more and have intelligent discussions based on fact instead of hearsay.

To say that having knowledge makes discussion impossible is like saying having a top ten MPR character makes fighting and strategy impossible. Ludicrous, indeed. The difference is that to fight in the high ranks, you need a REAL strategy, not just randomized training. Similarly, to have a discussion or a debate in this game now requires REAL knowledge, not whacky theories that aren't even remotely true. That's a Very Good Thing.

What this means is that now, the discussions and debates must be of a higher caliber. You have to have real facts to back up wild claims. You have to think a lot harder and work a lot harder to answer even a handful of the questions that I posed in response to Gentleman Loser. I'm very glad about that, as it sparks more ingenuity than baseless claims that add very little to the game.

This isn't the Dark Ages anymore. Welcome to the Renaissance.

Some people might need formulas that tell you how things work right down to the last detail; but not everybody. Yes they are helpful but in the end - for me at least - they boil down to the following:

Somethings increase my MPR invisibly, somethings decrease my enemies MPR invisibly. If you know what choices achieve either one of those - or both if you pick wisely - then you can win. The numbers don't always matter.

Just IMO though... :)

Numbers do matter. I remember when I was running MyFirstNCB, I had a terrible time trying to figure out from people how much DX to train on my wall to clear out 20 DX minions. I got answers ranging from 5000 to 10000 and everything in between. Further, practically everyone told me that with enough DX, I could double hit. That right there is what prompted my excursions into the realms of "to-hit". Now I know that you can never always double hit with DX alone, and you only need 60 DX to max out against a 20 DX opponent. What this means is that no longer must strat discussions get hung up on the nitty gritty details. Now we can talk about whether or not I SHOULD be playing cleanup with my wall.

Lack of discussion is never an excuse for misinformation.

I know we're going off topic, but hey. Sorry Seft. ;)

Don't get me wrong NS, I'm not knocking your approach. You know as well anyone how those To Hit facts helped me out when I was trying to work out my situation with the ELB and the ToA. And I know plenty of people find having the facts and figures to hand extremely useful. Otherwise your calculator wouldn't get the reception it has.

What I'm getting at, and I think Zog is too, is that some people play by feel. I'm a musician, and music is as much about maths as anything. But most musicians don't use that side of it, they play by feel. If something works it works, if it doesn't scrap it and start again.

It's how I play. I know what works and what doesn't. And, when I don't I give it a go until I find out. I'll leave the nitty gritty details to others. I think what's also apparent (even GL who has always been one for taking things apart to see how they work!) is that some people like the surprise/discovery that they make on their own when trying out strats. Having all the numbers available does remove that somewhat.

It's helpful sometimes - for instance, knowing that protection is not worth attempting to train above about 30 has saved me lots of xp, but it did used to be nice to not know when you were going to hit the next level of UC or something like that.

But then I've never been one for reading the manual! ;)

"some people like the surprise/discovery that they make on their own when trying out strats. Having all the numbers available does remove that somewhat."

Only if your vision is highly limited. Again, CB is growing up. If you stay at 1MPR, then yes, the discoveries you are able to see are already discovered.

To continue your music analogy... Is the real spirit of music in the wonderful musical constructions that anyone can create, or is it in figuring out how the fingering works? Things like to-hit, Evasion, Protection, etc. are all like the fingering you must learn to really indulge in your art and venture into virgin territories. APPLYING those facts and figures is where the REAL nuance comes out. It's where you hit 1m MPR and strat actually matters. It's where you play your first concert, and people want to hear what you've been able to create.

We're talking about making the tools of construction better, not limiting the power of creativity. In truth, I'd go so far as to say that if you think creativity and experience and gameplay is reduced by having sharper tools and a baseline of constructive algorithms with which to work, by having textbook fingering, timing, measures, a set of real notes to work with... then your creative juices are lacking.

Many highly trained, highly skilled and talented musicians stop creating once they get to the point they know their trade. Certainly in Rock, a lot of bands stop producing exciting interesting and original work once they reach a certain level. I could name a number of so called classic bands who produced their best and best loved works while they were still finding their feet, working their way around their instruments and searching for their voice.

Some of the best music ever IMO was made by people who could barely play their instruments properly.


And if the numbers really do matter then how were people playing before we knew what we do?

You want to compare music which is primarily a right brain activity to a text based game that is primarily left brain dominant?

There are hard and fast rules in CB, hard and fast numbers. This is certainly not true in music where free form is a discipline in itself.

CB is certainly not a Role Playing game so it is not a right dominant type of activity.

Me and JW are playing with the wrong sides of our brains then, Ranger - I like to do the same thing, play it by ear and see how it works out instead of calculating things out to the decimal first. Granted, once I'm in the middle of a strategy I like to start looking and numbers and figuring out how it will help to train to a particular point, etc... but it does to an extent take out the 'I wonder if this will work?' approach when you know EXACTLY whether it will work or not.

*shrugs* I'm not knocking either side, just saying I like it both way. I like the mystery of wondering how my strat will work with this less popular/tested method, and I like knowing that I only have to train my Protection to *exactly* this number to get the maximum effective from it and optimize my team. See what I'm sayin'?

Lol, OB, you just nailed in a paragraph what I've been saying over how many posts? ;)

Certainly OB I understand what your typing.

If you do not want to know the decimal aspect of the game, then just do not pay attention to those types of posts/chat.

But if some people want to figure out every aspect of the game and debate it in forums, is that not acceptable also.

It is, it is, I'm not saying it is unacceptable or anything even close! There's absolutely nothing wrong with posts like that, and nothing wrong with figuring that stuff out! The problem lies in that there's a limit to how much can be discovered, and once you've found everything out...well, it's just a matter of calculating out the formula for success. Which seems more like work to me than play. =P

"you know EXACTLY whether it will work or not. "

That's the point -- you don't. Having increased knowledge about things doesn't give you the answer to the ultimate question -- will it let me beat the person before round 26. You can know the best value for protection and still not answer the question. You can know the entire Evasion scale and still not know the best way to build things.

There's a difference between being Q and being Data, for all of you Star Trek fans.

What it comes down to is that there is MORE to figure out now than before, because now the information we have has opened many doors. Only, what's left to figure out, what's behind those doors, is not exactly as easy as brute forcing an Evasion chart.

The arguments against having all of this extra knowledge are about as valid as saying that we shouldn't have ever published the structure of arithmetic... granted, we now have calculus and statistics... but man... figuring out addition... that was fun!

The point is that the knowledge people have of this game is NOT the driving factor of a downward-spiraling community. Sefton's thread is about the growing unattractiveness of the community -- much the same as was the bulk of my QB entry. I see here in this thread and in others that we know too much about the game, and that's why it isn't fun anymore. Bollocks to that, I say. Stop wishing no one knew how to add, and start looking at what you can do with Calculus.

I think Sefton's point stands, short sighted competition and the cult of the individual have cost us; however the idea that warm fuzzies are the solution is laughable to me. When I arrived here in aught four new users where encouraged to shut the hell up and listen for at least a month, insults were used liberally and the community was at it's most vital and active. Camping was the sport of gods, and everyone dreamed of mastering the art of the one swift click (maybe two) and building massive NW. The mystery of how things worked drove me, and the "You must be this tall to ride" sign in the forums gave me reason to know for myself how things worked. I am, and always will be in the group playing cb with the wrong brain, and loving it.

"new users where encouraged to shut the hell up and listen for at least a month,"

I highly doubt that that was a productive way to build the community. What is more likely is that there were other factors attributing to its growth, and this did not detract from the growth significantly.

In the Maturity phase of a community, actions like what I quoted from you have much more extreme negative effects.

CB1 was sorta like that. ;) I don't remember any insults, but I wasn't in chat.

CB1 was "Build a single tank till 500K MPR, then think about training somthing other than HP/STR/DEX. Then at 1M MPR think about getting your first minion. Don't do anything else." ;)

So I went a built a single Mage. ;)

I did feel really nervous about making my first forum post, and badgered my (immensly helpful!) mentor a lot! ;)

I thik the new player forum is brilliant! As are the new goals.

what novice says was true for when i started in march of '03 as well. i do agree that it probably wasn't the healthiest of communities but it is also the one that everyone today is comparing the present one too and saying we are coming up short. perhaps we are merely seeing the past through rose-colored glasses as is human nature?