Morgul Hammer not attacking. (in General)


Lord Bob June 16 2007 2:11 AM EDT

At a random point during melee combat, my two minions with Morgul Hammers just stop attacking. No, they're not dead, and no, they're not attacking and missing. They just quit altogether.

Is this some "feature" of the MH that somehow slipped past my notice? Or is this just a glitch.

Wasp [Demon Forging] June 16 2007 2:56 AM EDT

Is it in the first round of melee by any chance?

AdminShade June 16 2007 7:17 AM EDT

Do they miss?
was it perhaps round 26?

QBRanger June 16 2007 7:21 AM EDT

I think a bit more information is needed for us to try to help you.

Lord Bob June 16 2007 11:59 AM EDT

"Is it in the first round of melee by any chance?"

I said they STOP attacking at a random point during melee combat. It's not a ranged/melee switch thing.

"Do they miss? "

See me first post.

"was it perhaps round 26?"

I'm not that stupid.

"I think a bit more information is needed for us to try to help you. "

I'll try to post an example. Give me a minute.

Lord Bob June 16 2007 12:01 PM EDT

Let's try this. This is a battle against Oblivion that I logged yesterday as an example.
Defensive Shield cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (208855)
Defensive Shield cast Ablative Shield on all friendly Minions (312463)
Offensive Shield cast Antimagic Field on Nullify (1.00)
Offensive Shield cast Giant Strength on all friendly Minions (215586)
Lord Bob cast Protection on all friendly Minions (4)
Bob's Rage cast Antimagic Field on Nullify (1.00)
Bob's Rage cast Haste on all friendly Minions (215586)
Etheral Vortex cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (201146)
Nullify found no valid targets on which to cast Antimagic Field
Black Hole cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (206932)
Ranged Combat
Lord Bob hit Annihilation [56149]
Annihilation looks clumsier!
Black Hole absorbs damage [56149]
Lord Bob shot Annihilation [49911]
Annihilation looks clumsier!
Black Hole absorbs damage [49911]
Bob's Rage missed Annihilation
Annihilation hit Defensive Shield [99658]
Annihilation shot Defensive Shield [115029]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Lord Bob hit Annihilation [45887]
Annihilation looks clumsier!
Black Hole absorbs damage [45887]
Lord Bob hit Annihilation [60839]
Annihilation looks clumsier!
Black Hole absorbs damage [60839]
Bob's Rage hit Annihilation [9857]
Annihilation looks weaker!
Black Hole absorbs damage [9857]
Annihilation shot Defensive Shield [87959]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Lord Bob hit Annihilation [63672]
Annihilation looks clumsier!
Black Hole absorbs damage [63672]
Lord Bob shot Annihilation [54983]
Annihilation looks clumsier!
Black Hole absorbs damage [54983]
Lord Bob hit Annihilation [62157]
Black Hole absorbs damage [62157]
Bob's Rage shot Annihilation [10784]
Annihilation looks weaker!
Black Hole absorbs damage [10784]
Bob's Rage shot Annihilation [7612]
Annihilation looks weaker!
Black Hole absorbs damage [7612]
Bob's Rage hit Annihilation [11137]
Annihilation looks weaker!
Black Hole absorbs damage [11137]
Annihilation missed Defensive Shield
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Melee Combat
Defensive Shield gashed Etheral Vortex [6915]
Black Hole absorbs damage [6915]
Defensive Shield rent Etheral Vortex [9525]
Black Hole absorbs damage [9525]
Offensive Shield rived Etheral Vortex [10531]
Black Hole absorbs damage [10531]
Offensive Shield rent Etheral Vortex [14139]
Black Hole absorbs damage [14139]
Nullify takes damage from his own Decay (10000)!
Nullify's Decay hit Defensive Shield for no damage
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield carved into Etheral Vortex [9245]
Black Hole absorbs damage [9245]
Defensive Shield gashed Etheral Vortex [8486]
Black Hole absorbs damage [8486]
Offensive Shield lacerated Etheral Vortex [13514]
Black Hole absorbs damage [13514]
Lord Bob pulverized Etheral Vortex [57880]
Black Hole absorbs damage [57880]
Lord Bob crushed Etheral Vortex [69727]
Black Hole absorbs damage [69727]
Bob's Rage fractured Etheral Vortex [10444]
Black Hole absorbs damage [10444]
Bob's Rage beat Etheral Vortex [9742]
Black Hole absorbs damage [2900]
Bob's Rage draws strength from his weapon! [1368]
Annihilation's blow was dodged by Defensive Shield
Nullify takes damage from his own Decay (8000)!
Nullify's Decay hit Defensive Shield for no damage
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield sliced into Etheral Vortex [5938]
Black Hole absorbs damage [5938]
Defensive Shield sliced into Etheral Vortex [8189]
Black Hole absorbs damage [8189]
Offensive Shield hacked Etheral Vortex [10900]
Black Hole absorbs damage [10900]
Offensive Shield gashed Etheral Vortex [13030]
Black Hole absorbs damage [1891]
Lord Bob crushed Etheral Vortex [76836]
Lord Bob draws strength from his weapon! [6403]
Lord Bob crushed Etheral Vortex [61032]
Bob's Rage bruised Annihilation [11920]
Bob's Rage draws strength from his weapon! [2384]
Bob's Rage tapped Annihilation [14079]
Bob's Rage draws strength from his weapon! [2815]
Annihilation's blow was dodged by Defensive Shield
Nullify takes damage from his own Decay (6400)!
Nullify's Decay hit Defensive Shield for no damage
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
R.I.P. Etheral Vortex
 
Defensive Shield scratched Annihilation [7337]
Black Hole absorbs damage [7337]
Offensive Shield glanced off of Annihilation [12434]
Black Hole absorbs damage [12434]
Offensive Shield glanced off of Annihilation [14913]
Black Hole absorbs damage [7198]
Lord Bob fractured Annihilation [72514]
Lord Bob draws strength from his weapon! [14502]
Lord Bob fractured Annihilation [63360]
Lord Bob draws strength from his weapon! [12672]
Bob's Rage tapped Annihilation [14174]
Bob's Rage draws strength from his weapon! [2834]
Bob's Rage tapped Annihilation [14966]
Bob's Rage draws strength from his weapon! [2993]
Annihilation swung wildly at Defensive Shield
Nullify takes damage from his own Decay (5120)!
Nullify's Decay hit Defensive Shield for no damage
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield glanced off of Annihilation [9860]
Black Hole absorbs damage [9860]
Defensive Shield scratched Annihilation [8053]
Black Hole absorbs damage [8053]
Offensive Shield glanced off of Annihilation [16212]
Black Hole absorbs damage [9028]
Offensive Shield glanced off of Annihilation [12144]
Lord Bob crunched Annihilation [81265]
Lord Bob draws strength from his weapon! [16253]
Lord Bob pulverized Annihilation [94844]
Lord Bob draws strength from his weapon! [7410]
Bob's Rage beat Nullify [10484]
Bob's Rage draws strength from his weapon! [2096]
Bob's Rage crushed Nullify [11818]
Bob's Rage draws strength from his weapon! [1999]
Annihilation's blow was dodged by Defensive Shield
Nullify takes damage from his own Decay (0)!
Nullify's Decay hit Defensive Shield for no damage
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
R.I.P. Annihilation, Nullify
 
Defensive Shield rived Black Hole [6625]
Defensive Shield hacked Black Hole [6227]
Offensive Shield chopped Black Hole [11211]
Offensive Shield eviscerated Black Hole [10902]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield sliced into Black Hole [6824]
Defensive Shield gashed Black Hole [6155]
Offensive Shield dislimbed Black Hole [9696]
Offensive Shield decapitated Black Hole [11096]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield eviscerated Black Hole [8636]
Defensive Shield eviscerated Black Hole [6899]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield clove Black Hole [8410]
Defensive Shield eviscerated Black Hole [7206]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield rent Black Hole [7547]
Defensive Shield carved into Black Hole [8805]
Offensive Shield dislimbed Black Hole [9960]
Offensive Shield eviscerated Black Hole [12866]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield eviscerated Black Hole [8803]
Defensive Shield decapitated Black Hole [5660]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield sliced into Black Hole [8608]
Defensive Shield rent Black Hole [6478]
Offensive Shield decapitated Black Hole [13259]
Offensive Shield dislimbed Black Hole [11794]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield dislimbed Black Hole [9562]
Defensive Shield dislimbed Black Hole [7653]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield lacerated Black Hole [6088]
Offensive Shield decapitated Black Hole [9156]
Offensive Shield decapitated Black Hole [14272]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield dislimbed Black Hole [8447]
Defensive Shield eviscerated Black Hole [7935]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield chopped Black Hole [7272]
Offensive Shield decapitated Black Hole [11733]
Offensive Shield eviscerated Black Hole [13624]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield eviscerated Black Hole [7881]
Defensive Shield dislimbed Black Hole [8002]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield lacerated Black Hole [7649]
Defensive Shield decapitated Black Hole [6969]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield rent Black Hole [6389]
Defensive Shield clove Black Hole [9053]
Offensive Shield eviscerated Black Hole [11874]
Offensive Shield eviscerated Black Hole [12267]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield dislimbed Black Hole [6262]
Defensive Shield eviscerated Black Hole [7754]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield sliced into Black Hole [7936]
Offensive Shield eviscerated Black Hole [10497]
Offensive Shield dislimbed Black Hole [9328]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 
Defensive Shield chopped Black Hole [6127]
Defensive Shield decapitated Black Hole [6588]
Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP
 

Lord Bob June 16 2007 12:05 PM EDT

I should note that because of this, I'm getting more losses and stalemates than usual, and opponents are rapidly falling off my fightlist.

QBRanger June 16 2007 12:15 PM EDT

Yes, this is a bug.

I suspect the following is happening:

Your attacking the minion Black Hole who is wearing a TSA and regenerates HP from it- Black Hole regenerated 24,235 HP.

Your first 2 minions in the attack hit Black Hole and take him into the negatives, not much into the negatives perhaps -10k or so. Since he is "already dead", your last 2 minions do not attack. Then Black Hole revives due to the TSA regeneration to perhaps 10-12k active hp. The first 2 minions attack again, driving him into the minimal negatives, repeated round after round.

This was a bug with VA, that is minions would die not get attacked by the last minions (if more than 1 were able to attack), then during the defensive portion of the round, the VA minion would attack, and leech enough life to become alive again. And so on throughout the battle.

This is a problem that you should get Jon's attention about.

bartjan June 16 2007 12:21 PM EDT

Bug or feature?

Bob, try doing the same battle without a weapon on one or both of your shields. This could improve things...

QBRanger June 16 2007 12:23 PM EDT

Well if the ability of a minion to "play dead" being revived by a TSA is a feature of the game, then IMO it is a bad feature.

Lord Bob June 16 2007 12:23 PM EDT

I just sent Jon a chatmail.

"Bob, try doing the same battle without a weapon on one or both of your shields. This could improve things..."

I'll try.

Lord Bob June 16 2007 12:31 PM EDT

I removed Offensive Shield's Blacksword and I seem to be consistently beating Oblivion now (or so it seems. In the past few days I tended to go back and forth with wins and stalemates with him. Maybe I just hit a lucky streak).

I'm not sure I like the idea of sacrificing one of my attackers in order to cause more damage though. That extra support damage comes in handy here and there.

bartjan June 16 2007 12:40 PM EDT

The thing is not about scarifying one of your attackers, but to have your main attacker attack sooner in each round. You could also consider changing the order in which your minions attack a little.
Of course, changes like this may make you a little weaker against other opponents, but that's what makes this game attractive ;)

th00p June 16 2007 1:55 PM EDT

Not quite clear, is this sort of like how edy was dying then being reincarnated to beat Sutekh a little while back, because it caused Sut to kill himself in the end?

QBsutekh137 June 16 2007 7:00 PM EDT

Similar, yes...

Basically, and I am paraphrasing myself here, folks pretty much agreed that allowing a minion to "hide in death" was a bit cheap.

But that thread also determined how difficult it would be to make it work differently. For example, what if the target was wearing an RoBF? (not possible with a TSA, yes, I know, but for illustration) Then you wouldn't WANT the other minions to attack and perhaps die. Just like I would necessarily want a mage to attack if AMF backlash would kill him.

So, you can't just have everyone attack even if someone is dead. However, the idea of the "minimal negatives" could be accounted for, especially in the case of the TSA (constant regeneration rate). That would incur some programming, though, and would still be a sort of band-aid.

Adminedyit June 16 2007 7:55 PM EDT

ah the "death dodge" i remember that :)

Lord Bob June 17 2007 10:53 AM EDT

"Basically, and I am paraphrasing myself here, folks pretty much agreed that allowing a minion to "hide in death" was a bit cheap."

I am inclined to agree.

"But that thread also determined how difficult it would be to make it work differently."

What about just making the TSA regenerate at the beginning of the round?

Lord Bob June 17 2007 11:05 AM EDT

Now the same thing is happening when I fight Stewed Rhubarb Pie. I've also noticed this vs. some other opponents, but I have no other examples at this time.

QBsutekh137 June 17 2007 4:23 PM EDT

Bob, your idea is exquisite. But for some reason I remember someone saying that before, and there was some reason why that might be problematic too.

For the life of me, though, I can't think of why it would be a problem. It is obvious why things like VA and GA retaliation occur after the fact -- they are based on an action.

But TSA regeneration is more like AMF backlash. It could occur at the beginning of the round, but only if the wearer is alive.

Sounds simple and elegant to me!

Miandrital June 17 2007 4:30 PM EDT

The problem with TsA regen at the beginning of the round is that if you take damage during that round, you lose the regen that you could have had.

QBsutekh137 June 17 2007 6:12 PM EDT

Then change the TSA's maximum regeneration limit to N, where N = (max native HP) + (what the TSA would regenerate).

That way, you still get the HP that is due you, but it can't be in a scenario where your TSA-wearer resurrects.

I know resurrection has been a "feature" in CB-land forever, but it has always been my read that that is due to the fact that it can be hard to code otherwise given the simultaneous-hit nature of battles. Any chance where resurrection CAN be easily avoided, I vote that Jonathan take it. *smile*

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] June 17 2007 9:28 PM EDT

liken the regeneration to the battle cry. when a minion dies, then it regenerates so it can be then targeted by people later in the round. shouldn't be too hard to mimic the battle cry code to do it.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] June 17 2007 9:29 PM EDT

oh and put in a cast once per round limit.

muon [The Winds Of Fate] June 17 2007 10:39 PM EDT

Sutekh: no, that wouldn't work either.

If the max regen N was (Max Native) + (TSA Regen Amount) then even if the minion wasn't hit at all during the first round, at the end of second round the minion would have N hitpoints ("regenerated" the TSA regen amount despite not being damaged at all).

It's a tricky problem, but definitely one that needs solving.

I vote for this solution: if there is only one minion remaining, all minions attack it regardless of death.

For example, we have chopped our way through the entire team, there is only one minion remaining. Bob's BoNE wielder does a small amount of damage (enough to kill), and despite the opposing minion being dead, the other minions decide to "make sure" and do their damage as well.

Then, when the regen at the end of the round takes place, it isn't enough to resuscitate the minion.

QBsutekh137 June 17 2007 11:12 PM EDT

I don't consider a minion getting the bit of HP from the TSA as being that great of an advantage.

And if it is, then fine, leave the max the same.

I find "hiding in death" a far cheaper shot than having a TSA-wearer miss out on some tiny amount of regen. And if the response to that is "every little bit helps", then that's preaching to the choir. Lord Bob's example already makes that abundantly clear, and he is losing out to something that shouldn't be happening.

Sacredpeanut June 17 2007 11:47 PM EDT

I'm no programming expert but would something along the lines of this be easy enough to add to the fight code?

When checking to see if a minion is alive and therefore targetable by an attacker: check first if the minion in question is wearing a TSA, if yes then instead of checking if current hp >0, check if (current hp + TSA regen amount at end of round) > 0.

This would work for the TSA where the TSA regen amount is a known number but wouldn't work for life draining attacks.

Flamey June 18 2007 3:31 AM EDT

excellent idea, SP.

QBsutekh137 June 18 2007 10:31 AM EDT

Yes, great idea!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 18 2007 12:47 PM EDT

Maybe an solution. ;)

What is happening here is that a following minion doesn't target a dead minion to attack, allowing them to move on to another live target in the same round.

Wouldn't all we need to do is tell the attacking minion to continue to attack the last target if that is the only one left in the round?

QBsutekh137 June 18 2007 1:52 PM EDT

That's what muon said above, GL. *smile* However, a mage receiving heavy AMF backlash upon attacking might think otherwise in the Draw. That's what makes the whole thing tricky.

But the TSA could be special-cased to not allow resurrection. That would solve this particular issue... I wouldn't change the overall attack dynamics, because then that changes the play for non-TSA-related fights (though would end up being a more consistent solution, I suppose...)

Adminedyit June 18 2007 1:59 PM EDT

wouldn't the "easier" fix be to have it so that on the next round of attack, the attacker goes for the next available live target? looking at Lord Bob's play by play his 2 mini attackers kept fighting for 10+ rounds while his main damage dealer sat there idle. Now I know nothing about coding at all but it would (to me at least) make more sense to have the attacker attack a live target than try to re-plan the way the TSA regenerates.

Disclaimer: edyit knows absolutely nothing about coding or computer programming in general.

QBsutekh137 June 18 2007 2:33 PM EDT

That's just it -- the TSA-wearer IS the available live target, because the TSA brings him back to life.

Or are saying to remember which attacking minion should go next (if he/she didn't attack in the previous round)? That sounds a bit harder to do... Attacks always start from the top minion and work down. Changing that to remember where the attack order left off sounds more complex than any of the other solutions posted thus far...

Adminedyit June 18 2007 3:03 PM EDT

ok sorry sut maybe i worded it wrong i'll try again.

Round 1 of melee- All Bobs minions attack, TSA wearer dies/regens. this is where the oddity occurs.

Round 2 of melee- Bobs 2 lesser minions attack his main damage dealer sits idle.
now if the 2 lesser minions can "see" he's still alive and attack why can't the main damage dealer "see" he's still alive and attack.

what i propose is kinda like this, Round 2 of melee the attackers attack the next available target. Its a whole new round so wether its a tank or mage doing the damage they should "see" who is still standing and attack the next available minion.

QBRanger June 18 2007 3:15 PM EDT

Or just make it so the TSA does not regenerate hp for a minion who is below 0 hp.

QBsutekh137 June 18 2007 4:51 PM EDT

Ranger: agreed.

edyit, I'm still not seeing it. The TSA-wearer IS the next live target in the scenario where he is last man standing and he resurrects. And yes, the main damage dealer can see he is alive at the start of the round, but does not attack because he thinks he is dead (a dynamic meant to help against draws in the event that an attack has a retaliatory effect such as an RoBF or AMF backlash). Sure, Jonathan could just turn on all attacks all the time, but then if I have two mages, and both die from AMF when the second one would not have had to attack, that puts the attacker at a (slight) disadvantage. It would mean my team was too stupid to stop killing you and ended up killing itself.

So, the question really comes down to "to resurrect or not to resurrect?" Resurrection helps the TSA-wearer team win, while making it hard for the attacker to finish him off even if there is available firepower. Either resurrection needs to be turned off, or all attacks need to be allowed. Both changes are a bit more profound than they appear at first blush.

If I am still missing something, please use Lord Bob's battle listing as an example to state what you are envisioning...?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 18 2007 6:31 PM EDT

O_O

Muon did beat me to it! ;)

Hehehehehe, wasn't trying to steal any thunder! ;) But I still feel that's the best solution to this.

{cb1}Linguala June 18 2007 7:25 PM EDT

I think SP has the best solution, being the easiest to implement without changing anything to armor/weapon stats and such not.

QBsutekh137 June 18 2007 7:32 PM EDT

Yes, SP's idea is growing on me more and more, as it is basically just the attacker saying, "Hey, my comrades did great, but I see that enemy is wearing a TSA! I better slice him up a little more to make sure that voodoo cannot bring him back!" *smile*

Basically, SP's idea is just giving an attacker TSA-recognition skills. And surely, after fighting hundreds and thousands of battles, our boys and girls can recognize a TSA, yeah?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 19 2007 3:40 AM EDT

How would the attacker know if the TSA regen would be enough to bring them back to life?

QBsutekh137 June 19 2007 10:57 AM EDT

Do you mean "realistically" or technically?

Realistically, the savvy attacker would say, "Lo! My comrades have vanquished the enemy! But alas, I see the most recent kill is wearing an item of great witchcraft, the Trollskin Armor! And I know it can restore some vestige of life to those that wear it! Since he doesn't look all that dead, I better stab him again!"

Technically, before deciding whether or not to attack, Jonathan checks the negative HP on the last-killed target, and if it the absolute value of that negative number is less than the TSA regeneration amount, that target is still considered "alive", and it will be the minion targeted.

Hm, I just thought of another wrinkle, then, in the case where there are other minions to attack beyond the TSA-wearer. You might WANT your next attacker to attack the next live target instead of wasting an attack on a near-dead TSA-wearer. That would be where the other ideas come into play, such as only having this special case kick in when the TSA-wearer was the last killed. Everyone else probably already took that for granted. I just got it. *smile*

So, in summary:

To "fix" this issue with as little disruption possible to other fighting dynamics, do the following:

When the final attacked minion to fall is wearing a TSA, determine whether or not the TSA-wearer is alive by taking the TSA regeneration into account. If the TSA regen at the end of the round would make the TSA-wearer alive, minions keep attacking until that is no longer the case. If that results in an attack being a mage eaten by AMF backlash, then so be it.

That's the idea on the table anyway, if I am not mistaken.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 19 2007 2:06 PM EDT

Leave out the calculate part and you're golden sute. ;)

It's the last minion, hit it again anyway. ;)

Sacredpeanut June 20 2007 7:23 AM EDT

Another possible solution - if all minions are dead at any stage, the fight is won by the other character. This would be very easy to implement I believe - if a minion can find no alive minions to hit the battle finishes and that team wins.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 20 2007 8:12 AM EDT

Great idea! Would devalue TSA/VA a little though.

QBsutekh137 June 20 2007 2:12 PM EDT

Well, there really is no concept of "everyone dead" mid-battle. Remember, even if everyone is killed, they all still get their one last attack (the whole "simultaneous hit" thing.

But I guess each team could have a flag that gets set, and if all minions are dead on a team, after the simultaneous attacks, then no "post" battle operations like TSA regeneration would fire. Is that what you mean, SP? (sorry I am a bit slow...)

That would not devalue VA at all. VA regeneration happens DURING the fighting. That regeneration would still fire. But operations that are completely post-battle, like TSA regeneration, would not fire.

That almost sounds too easy, and yes, it would devalue the TSA a bit. Putting it another way, though, it would just make the TSA operate as it should -- I do not believe the TSA was ever meant as a resurrection device, and if it was, that is, in a word, silly.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0028iw">Morgul Hammer not attacking.</a>