Does this look like an effective strategy? (in General)

Some say yes, some say no. I say this is not a strategy, I think this is a horrible exploitation of a single item.

and your thoughts on Karn's char?

I thought the RoBF was an item you could focus your strategy around, sure, but I had no idea the RoBF had gone and just become an entire strategy by itself. I think that this is the antithesis of any "strategy" at all in this game, and thusly, is retarded.

Since it is obvious that the RBF is in no way, shape or form overpowered; I say Kudos!!.

Excellent use of the tools given by Jon and outstanding strategy!!!

One could do the same thing with a HF, SF, FF or IF using the first minion as a pure evasion minion. Would it be as powerful? Obviously not as nobody is using that strategy. But the RBF seems perfect as an alternative method of dealing damage. I personally have never felt this was unbalanced in any way.

However, as Jon did not change the RBF in any way last changemonth, he must believe the RBF is perfect the way it is.

So, Multiple Kudos to Lostling and Karn for using the tools given in the most effective manner!!!!!!

PS: If you look up sarcasm in the dictionary, this post will be quoted.

Disclaimer: This is not a slam against Lostling or Karn. If I was to do a NCB, it would be the perfect way to maximize rewards and grow ASAP. To that I honestly say "well done!!"

I agree. RoBF is annoyingly simple, effective and cheap.

Almost takes the finesse out of CB that I am so attracted to.

Well one can also say it is not just an exploit of an item, but also an exploit of a skill far too powerful for the xp expenditure.

Not that evasion is what I am typing about or anything.

Although I don't really like the simplicity, I by no means think people shouldn't abuse it.

Jon didn't change it so it is definitely a great idea to get the most of it. And if he doesn't change it I guess the game is going to have evolve around it when it becomes incredibly popular.

guys for the love of god, please use the www. in front of your links!!!! please!
like so: www.carnageblender.com/inspect_opponent.tcl?opponent_id=110612&opponent_name=TestChar2
Don't use http:// in your links!

I don't like the simplicity. I've said that from day one.

Ranger touched upon one of the outstanding problems, Evasion.

We've done this to death.

Evasion needs a change. Max Tattoo needs a change. DD reduction needs a change.

I'll say it one last time. It is the direct reduction of DD damage that allows this to work with 20 HP.

It's the binary nature of Evasion that allows this to work for Physical Damage.

Now this strategy will be beaten, all the time.

By a larger version of itself.

Lostling and Karn's strategy are no more abuse of RoBF than my classic single minion, hp training robf character. Want proof? Look at the mpr vs. score chart. My char hit a score of over 1.8mil at 800k mpr. Karn's character has been hitting that score range at best at his current circa 800k mpr. He's score was a lot lower than that when he first hit 800k and his mpr has been stagnating. He also has actual networth behind that robf setup. (max tatt, good gear). My tatt is home grown and my gear rented.

Lostling's score hovers around 1.6mil. My score was that range at about the same mpr, again with gear and tatt a lot crappier than what he has. With pure evasion, he is able to hit up occasionally to larger tanks. But at his mpr, he'll get 100% CB anyways so it's rather pointless. Also, I don't see how lost can be very competitive in clan once he hits the slaughter zone because he's farmable by every mage and their brother. That would potentially lead to a reduction in reward. As soon as he hits around 2mil score zone, he'll run into a lot of massive weapons and people using defensive ammo (eg. windwalker's Yanki and freed's massive sod and Gbee's brand new mageseeker.) Even that much evasion might not be enough. Sure there will be big 2mil character whose blow you can dodge, but can you kill their massive toe with RoBF damage output? Don't think so.

So these "abuses" of robf is no more effective than a vanilla strategy such as my own. Slap a coc anywhere on your team and bam you can start farming us. I am not convinced that RoBF is ridiculous by your arguments.

Well certainly a RBF can be defeated by a larger RBF.

But is that really what we want. RBF wars?

Imagine if having the biggest tattoo means you win all the time regardless of what other spells/skills you have.

same goes for: what is bigger? ELB or evasion

1/3 my MPR, 1/60,000 of my total HP, and yet I have to remove The Fallen from my list because I can't hit it and get crisped by the RoBF?

I've always been one to scoff at cries of "overpowered", but could this one be any more obvious? My next NCB plan is and RoBF and Evasion as well, because it's almost foolish not to.

Ridiculous? Quite so... Balanced? (insert any number of lopsided, sarcastic comments here)...

I agree with GL's argument. RoBF is pretty boring. In fact, I can tell you the best RoBF setup right now. 2 minion team, front minion with 80% evasion/20% hp, back minion with 100% amf. Put robf, aof, eg and eb on evasion minion. Put corn on amf minion. You get the full benefit of Corn without sacrificing penalty to evasion. You can probably do some variant of it without affecting the outcome much, it's probably not that much better than a single minion robf strategy, but that's pretty much it.

It is quite boring to play and I would like to see things stirred up a bit more. As for RoBF being overpowered? I'm not seeing it really. I think evasion is the overpowered one but that's been said many times already. Given the proper equipment, I'd say JW's evasion sod strategy trumps mine. It is no more farmable than I am and he can actually kill the larger, decentralized teams around 2mil score whom I can dodge but do too little damage to kill.

"Well certainly a RBF can be defeated by a larger RBF.

But is that really what we want. RBF wars?"

No, not at all. It was an example of how the current situation is self defeating, and not good for the game.

"Imagine if having the biggest tattoo means you win all the time regardless of what other spells/skills you have."

;)

To bazoo:

Yes you miss lost all the time. Guess what, lost stales you all the time too. His robf won't do enough damage to break your ToE anytime soon. So really it's no good for him that he dodges your blow. I can dodge a lot of hits from bigger characters but as soon as they have a ToE, I can't kill them. It does me absolutely no good.

Also, you don't need a bigger RoBF to beat the RoBF strategy. That is absolutely untrue. Any CoC strategy with comparable or lower mpr will trump robf teams (especially lostling...), use an NSC. Look up SoS Brigade if you really want an example. Forsaken gets a sweet amount of reward from farming me that's for sure.

What else beats RoBF? How about the age old SFBM? They can use an RoE too. Maybe they'll join BR and get 100% CB + 20% bonus exp + 15% clan bonus. Try doing that with RoBF.

RoBF teams might stalemate me on offense, but when they are on defense, I don't stalemate them when I attack - I lose. That does me even less good, and when the MPR/PR difference is so lopsided and the larger one is losing, something is overpowered...

Like losing to a single Archer who's massive Elbows NW is totally absorbed by thier WA? :P

eh. why are you attacking someone you know you'll stalemate? Besides, lost's score is consistently fluctuating, being farmed by mage teams a lot smaller than him constantly. He makes a crappy target in any case. If you want clan targets, there are many many clan targets at the 1.6mil score range who you can beat.

First,

A stalemate if your the lower MPR/PR character is great. If your the bigger one, that sucks. So if, as a lower PR character you can stalemate someone much bigger/powerful then you, OUTSTANDING!.

Or this way:

Score / PR / MPR: 1,931,850 / 2,203,712 / 1,616,899 vs 1,605,519 / 772,867 / 547,696. Who is going great and who is swinging at air? Guess Lost saves himself losing clan points = higher clan score. So indirectly he is winning the battle vs Barzoo.

Or this way:

Barzoo is 3x the PR AND MPR of Lostling and cannot beat him. What other strategy lets you do that. Give Losting a bit of time and growth to get his tattoo up and perhaps at 1/2 or 2/3 Barzoo's PR/MPR he can break through his TOE/AC. All this time Barzoo has to pump massive NW into his weapons as Lostling evasion is growing and growing.

There are not that many CoC mages out there. So RBF users have little to worry about. Why? Since that strategy is very poor as an all around strat, unlike the RBF one.

Just look at a large part of the NCB's out there, do you see COC mages or RBF evasion minions? Something should be obvious in that answer.

If the RBF minion uses AMF as most do, SMFB mages are not a huge problem as the RBF can cover the residual damage after the AMF's effect.

"Maybe they'll join BR and get 100% CB + 20% bonus exp + 15% clan bonus."

You perhaps want to leave BR out of it. Jealousy will get you nowhere.

Lostling's score was probably higher when using the CoC and ToA in defense strat :P

I wonder how well it would do with 100% EC rather than evasion.

GL,

That is a PR/WA issue. Not applicable to this thread.

One has to look at both PR vs PR and MPR vs MPR issues.

We all know that missile damage, especially the ELB is way out of line. Hence evasion being out of line. Hence, nobody without a USD weapon, DD spells or a RBF can do damage to evasion minions.

The main problem I see with the RBF is its all offensive capability without any of the applicable counters to its damage. Immunity to AMF and GA being the 2 main ones. People profess it is great, a new form of damage. Outstanding!, but where are the checks and balances of it.

DD has AMF/GA/RBF, physical has EC/GA, RBF has another RBF. All forms do have TOE/AC/protection.

"I wonder how well it would do with 100% EC rather than evasion."

Far far far worse.

IE he would not have nearly enough MPR to overcome Barzoo's tank with 100% EC or most of the other tanks above his MPR. Consider the TOA users, and the TSA users with the significant bump in their strength due to it.

Remember that EC only has the corn to boost it. While evasion has all the elven gear and the AOF AND gets multiplied in missile rounds.

there has been one theme that keeps coming up in these discussions that really bothers me. many in our community seem to see simple strategies as less valid than complex ones. sometimes the simpler strategy is the best one to use!

single minions are pretty much forced to find the simple strategies to compete in the game since we no longer get more xp than others. we do not have the benefit of kill slots other than our tattoos and one minion. the only way we can then do very well is through xp concentration and the better the concentration the more successful you can be.

i would use the same argument you use (the simple strategies are boring) in stating that if we kill all single minion strategies that thrive on xp concentration and are left with a game where you must be multi-minion to thrive then where is the fun in that?

To Ranger:

Yes Lost is not being farmed by Bazoo anymore. Lost can be farmed by the dozen of SFBM out there. If you have a fb that can do 300k damage(at most), he loses. I'm guessing the list of people that can farm him should run pretty long.

On to the fact that Bazoo will be losing to lostling as he raises his mpr. I must first point out that, no offense to you bazoo, but your strategy needs some fine tuning. Triple tank and a decay mage upfront is a pretty confusing setup. Also, you have your evasion tank in the back, which is puzzling. You also dispersed your exp way too much and have very weak tanks for your mpr. A EC strategy of considerable less mpr will beat you. A well shielded dual MM will destroy you. Your overall low hp and lack of defensive enchantment means you are vulnerable to lower mpr teams built to counter tanks. Guess what, lost did just that and spent 100% of his exp to counter tanks. It's no surprise that you can't kill him.

Why are new ncbs starting with robf instead of coc team? That's because robf is so simple and there is a lot of publicity about its effectiveness. It's a great setup for new players without too much knowledge of the game. However, it does not bring the best reward. SFBM does, because of this wonderful item they can use called RoE. If I start over again, I'll definitely do SFBM.

Lastly, you are wrong about AMF being a complete counter to SFBM. Most SFBM concentrates a lot of exp into his/her dd. Look up Moby, a SFBM with lower mpr than me, regularly farms me when I have RoBF setup on. (I only beat him when I put on my elbow and ToA, gotta work on that evasion). I tried putting on a corn, didn't help much. Admittedly, my tatt is not maxed, but not many people have maxed tatt at my level. I hardly ever see 1.5mil+ tatt for sale and usually they want a straight sell instead of insta. It is important to note that you don't need to be lower MPR than an RoBF character to reap good reward. RoBFs have very inflated scores because we farm large, decentralized tank and mage teams. Hence, you can be at a higher MPR and still reap some of the best rewards.

For a very long time - since the single FB mage with FF went down the dumper, we've had a situation where to be successful, I mean really successful you had to add the kill slots. It still persists to a degree, just look over the top twenty to see how great a percentage are 4 minion teams. The RBF does one thing very well and that is to let a single minion team thrive. OK, so maybe it does it too well - but having run one I still don't think that to be the case.

Now, the stalemate situation - that's a problem. If something stalemates too much then something is out of balance.

So, broken? I'd say so. Overpowered? No.

To ranger:

I apologize for the BR comment. I don't know how that came out :).

With regards to the damage reduction for RoBF, I must point out the fact that RoBF has a very low rate of damage output compare to the other means. Take an RoBF and a ToE of the same level, the RoBF will not break damage cap and 25% of 20% is 5% of tattoo level in damage. Add on armor and 25 rounds is really not long enough.

"GL,

That is a PR/WA issue. Not applicable to this thread."

Of course it is. A single ToA Archer can concentrate thier XP, same way a single RoBF minion can do.

"One has to look at both PR vs PR and MPR vs MPR issues."

Difficult if the Archers PR is thrown out by the WA though...

"We all know that missile damage, especially the ELB is way out of line. Hence evasion being out of line. Hence, nobody without a USD weapon, DD spells or a RBF can do damage to evasion minions."

Yo. 100% agree.

"The main problem I see with the RBF is its all offensive capability without any of the applicable counters to its damage. Immunity to AMF and GA being the 2 main ones. People profess it is great, a new form of damage. Outstanding!, but where are the checks and balances of it."

Itself for one. Just like a Tank is the best thing to counter a Tank with. Or and Archer another Archer...

The RoBF offensive is crap really really crap.

It's it's defense that is causing the problem. The Evasion. The direct DD reduction.

Change those, we solve the problem.

And as you said, we gain another strategic element from the new Damage type. Outstanding! CB needs new dynamics.

"DD has AMF/GA/RBF, physical has EC/GA, RBF has another RBF. All forms do have TOE/AC/protection."

RBF damage has absolutly nothing to boost it. Nothing. I call that an even trade.

No need to list what you can use to boost DD or Physical damage is there? Even the Familiars can have thier damages boosted above what thier Tattoo size can provide.

The main reason why RBF damage seems too high; As you have agreed to previously, the MTL is far too high. Hell my new NCB is here just to see how high I can (casually) pump my 751K Tattoo to by the end of my bonus time.

I'm hoping this ncb charcater of mine will be ruined. ;)

"Change those, we solve the problem."

Should have clarified, not necessarily by changing the Tattoo...

just a tip ;) i dont fight with an ROBF so this is hardly a good idea to complain about me :) and yes someone should look at my history graph :)

Why because you keep training and unlearning to keep your MPR at a certain level? Dudemus has a nice growth rate, so what ever point you are trying to make is lost.

actually my growth rate is poor enough that i fear i will drop out of the 6/10 range and be in bad shape. with my current setup i can no longer switch to the roe to catch up a little bit to you top guys who are growing faster than i. having more of a clan bonus now may save me but i am still concerned about that quite a bit.

I suspect Lost is doing this to maximize his rewards. If he keeps his PR/MPR at a certain level, using the strategy lets him get 100% CB.

Now about Dude's comment:

I only used the ROE for a very short time. Considering neither of us get any negative or positive challenge bonus, if you use all your BA, how would you fall out of the 6/10 regeneration bracket? Your rewards should easily top 60% of mine.

If you do not use all your BA and buy all the BA you can, then you deserve to drop down a bracket.

well now that we can see lost's MTL, it's roughly 60% of mine and his mpr is 60% of mine. So lost doesn't have massive amount of exp. So is lost shedding all his exp through attrition everyday? Sounds crazy enough to work :).

i rarely miss ba. i cannot explain it but for some time i was graphing my mpr in relation to the top five for months after breaking into the 6/10 range. the top five or so were easily outgrowing me on a weekly basis except when i could use my roe. even with the roe i was barely keeping even with them.

i do often come back expecting to have almost full ba and see that my ba is only at 100 to 130 or so. i do not think that would explain it all though. i have stated this before and no one else seems to notice it or be tracking it. i can see the same thing happening in others history graphs though but i really don't know how they fight.

the main point though is that my growth rate is not great, it is not really even good. given a free retrain i would leave my robf in a heartbeat just to get back to a strategy to use the roe for boostage.

But how can my growth be higher then yours?

i said that i cannot explain it, it is pretty obvious if you look at our history graphs though, just mpr and about 99 days. you can see it there.

i wish i still had my clan stats from before i disbanded jabberwocky to merge, i believe i was higher than you for several of the periods. which should mean i was fighting more if anything. i guess it resets or something when ya leave a clan though.

Unless I get better overall rewards due to fighting higher score characters.

But there are days I log in and have 160 BA waiting for me. That is, I slept over 8 hours the night before.

same here, more often than not though i have less than the 160. perhaps twice a week i sleep past the max amount. when i do it is probably only one to two refreshes i would miss though at the most.

Ranger, rewards are based on your BA cost. You get higher rewards than anyone else because you have a higher BA cost.

BA Cost is based on VPR. Since you have the highest VPR, you have the highest BA cost, and thus the highest growth rate.

I feel like I've said this at least a dozen times already in the past week......

i think it is.
because i farmed him.
at 20 mpr =]

took off the RoBF for about 3 days, so i think it's a good stratagy.
...
for the people attacking him.

for what my opinion is worth, here's my "grow out of RoBF" strat for single minion teams:

buy the new minion, equip with DBs, AoI, NSC and HoC, train skill junction to 1.0 and re-ink the RoBF into a CoC.

This new minion will go in front of the original overfed Evasion+AMF thingy that held your RoBF, so now you can add an Elven Cloak and a TSA or Hauberk [assuming you already have EBs, EGs, Corn, and an AoF].

Have more cash to splurge, buy a third minion for the Mage Wall to drain MM attacks, fit with MgS and Hauberk.

Once the single minion RoBF hits the wall, so to speak, I think this is the only way to go ahead. It is simply pointless to lose all that Evasion [and AMF] to train a CoC spell and reink the RoBF into a ToE. So, spending for the new minion will provide a 2mil+ CoC spell instantly while keeping your evasion and AMF properties intact.

Just my $0.02/-

Well I don't got more then 500k DX but I have a +150 Exbow and I still can't hit Lostlings char. This is surely overpowered!

You can't even hit me Blubben and I only have 131 evasion. But I know lostling has more in evasion then me that also means more defensive dex. But he can be easily defeated by any DD spell, you only need to hit him for 20 hp.

BluBBen can't hit my char either - and I've only got 110 evasion. That says more about the power of evasion than the RBF...

Yes,

But the RBF allows one to concentrate xp into evasion.

Unlike using a DD spell, which is vulnerable to both AMF and GA, the RBF's immunity allows one to hyperboost their evasion.

Normal mages have to spend xp into HP and their DD spell as well as evasion and/or AMF/DM. Diluting the xp on a single minion 4 ways.

The RBF, with its magic resistance, allows one to just spend points into evasion and/or AMF. Diluting the xp on a single minion just 2 or 3 ways.

Where mages have to keep their DD spell relatively high to counter AMF, RBF using minions do not really have to do this.

True, they can use a TOE to mitigate the AMF/GA damage, but over time, they can die from AMF/GA. RBF users have no such fear, hence, the lower HP, higher evasions.

So while evasion is a huge part of the problem, the RBF allows one to have a very high evasion compared to standard mages.

Lostling character is an extreme example, with just 1 stat/skill/spell, but still a very viable one. Normal mages could never fight with 20 hp and a low DD spell even if they use a TOE. True they could use a familiar, but then AMF and GA would be very difficult to deal with.

Just ask novice how high AMF's effect his IF. Without his GA, I am sure his fightlist would be much much lower.

Ability to pump evasion/amf aside, and the DD reduction power, the thing I would change to balance the RBF would be to make it's damage vulnerable to GA.

Personally I think it's a third type of damage, after physical and magical, and it can be reduced - it's just that a lot of people aren't using damage reduction as much as they have in recent times. Make it cause a GA reaction and non HP chars like the one above wouldn't be able to exist. After all it wouldn't take a very big GA to kill a 20 HP char.

Yes,

GA should apply to the RBF, just like any damage.

AMF, perhaps not as it is a "new" damage.

AC/prot/TOE apply to all types of damage, and if high enough can mitigate all types of damage. People keep saying that the counter to the RBF is AC/TOE. It is the counter, or one counter to ALL damage. Nothing special vs the RBF. As we can see, 400AC/TOE combo can reduce a 205M MH to doing 50k a hit. It can reduce a 5M FB to doing 40k a hit. There is nothing special about using it vs the RBF.

But, if you make GA apply, given its prevalence in CB, RBF users would then have to make a choice.

Use AMF to lower DD damage and be vulnerable to GA, or use DM to stop the GA but take full DD damage. Or go neither and boost hp./evasion. At least something to make the RBF and its xp concentration ability less powerful.

Because STR can be replaced by Weapon X, and DEX by +, any Tank/Archer can concetrate XP into Evasion. Regardless of other stats.

Granted, due to GA they can't leave thier HP at 20.

XP concentration is not the problem.

Ranger, do you want to comment on my point aobut not only the RBF damage being quite quite low (in comparison to equivalent sources of damage) plus the fact that there is nothing in game to boost it at all?

"Because STR can be replaced by Weapon X, and DEX by +, any Tank/Archer can concentrate XP into Evasion. Regardless of other stats."

Show me any tank that does not use str/dex. Of course the TOA can compensate.

However EC can nullify a tanks damage output no matter the x on the weapon. And evasion can make it impossible to hit.

Xp concentration is a huge problem, magnified by the RBF's ability to always hit and never take GA/AMF damage.

I cannot see how people cannot see the xp concentration and state it is not a problem. Especially for evasion as it is an all or nothing type of skill.

"Ranger, do you want to comment on my point aobut not only the RBF damage being quite quite low (in comparison to equivalent sources of damage) plus the fact that there is nothing in game to boost it at all?"

Certainly,

The damage output of the RBF is anything but low if you have a tattoo that has grown from a baby and keeps growing.

Too many people now use the ROE (for reasons that are good), and fail to grow their own tattoo. Therefore they are using tattoo's woefully low for their MPR. Those tattoo are doing less damage then they should but still enough to give them high score/PR/MPR ratios. And the ability to stalemate tanks even in the top ranks, some of which have used some USD.

Take a tattoo that grows with a character and the damage output is fine enough, especially over 21 rounds of melee combat, given it ALWAYS hits and is not subject to AMF/GA return damage. All the minion has to do is dodge or let the RBF's magic resistance protect it (along with AMF).

True, very high COCs and FB's can overwhelm the RBF, but that is the exception (esp COC) rather then the rule.

As to no items to boost the RBF, who cares. You ALWAYS hit and take no AMF/GA return damage. If your tattoo is of a decent level for your character, who cares?

Dudemus' RBF does 880k damage every round always hitting vs a 0 AC minion. At 2.7M level, a woefully low level even he admits. Get some AC, and perhaps it does 300-400k a round. Over 20 rounds that is about 8M damage, enough to kill most teams. Yes, TOE teams will likely be immune but for the NW, he is doing tons of damage.

Ask Sut how much damage his 5M FB does vs TOE/MgS or even just MgS's alone. I suspect the RBF's damage is not that low in comparison, at 1/2 the level. Ask Bast or NWO how much damage their MM does to MgS minions with a decent AMF level. The RBF damage does not seem that low now, does it?

"Because STR can be replaced by Weapon X, and DEX by +, any Tank/Archer can concetrate XP into Evasion. Regardless of other stats."

Ahem...
If your weapon x is less than 1/20 your ST, then adding one x will increase damage more than adding 1 ST. If your weapon x is more then 1/20 your ST, adding one x will increase your damage less than adding 1 ST.
Just something I picked up in chat tonight. You learn something new every day. Credit to NS for that.

Oke as far as I know it GA retaliates the same type of damage.
So even if the GA returns 60% of the RoBF damage, the RoBF tattoo treats that as a much smaller RoBF tattoo resulting in taking no damage from the GA. Because you only get 60%.
So making the RoBF take GA damage is a bit pointless isn't it?

sorry for the double posting but because the RoBF is no DD, AMF shouldn't apply to this anyway.
And you guys are only whining about the single minions, what about the multi minion strategy they don't have a big evasion.

Ranger, equivalent damage...

A massive RBF should be expected to do more damage than a base dagger. Right?

But a RBF of equal size to a DD (Tattoo Size = DD 33% of Total XP) the RBF will *always* deal less damage than any of the three DDs (decay obviously left out here) and of the same equivalent size to XP spent on a Tank, thier Weapon will surely do the same.

Plus you can boost the DD thorugh AG.

Yes the RBF always hits. So does DD. And DD will always hit for more (AMF/MGS/EH excluded. As you can always target someone without AMF. This is a general comparison).

"The RBF damage does not seem that low now, does it?"

Biased comparison.

Test the RBF versus Sutes FB not facing a AMF/MGS/EH monster. Test them both versus only AC/Prot/Endurance.

I bet the RBF damage starts to look might small now...

some stats from the Wiki;

At equal levels (so DD = Tattoo)

CoC: 110% Damage
FB: 65% Damage
MM: 48% Damage
RBF: 20% Damage

Ignoring that;

1: HoC doesn't work on the RBF
2: FB and MM have three extra rounds to deal damage over the RBF

The RBF deal under half the expected damage that MM, the smallest damaging DD would.

And under 20% of the Damage expected from CoC.

With Physical hits rivaling, if not hitting for more than an equivalent DD (and sometimes multiple times), it's easy to see that equivalently, the RBF deal out tiny damage.

This is off set by it's ability to not take retunred damage from it. Plus the fact there is no way to boost it.

Lets take a look at what we could expect to see in game, from the current largest values.

Largest FB: 4,801,364
Expected Damage per round: 3,120,887
Total Damage over 25 rounds: 76,149,642

Largest RBF (Inlcuding Naming): 6,848,775
Expected Damage per round: 1,369,755
Total Damage over 25 rounds (faces no ranged rounds): 34,243,875

So overall, the largest RBF in the game currently, is expected to do less than half of the largest FB in the game, over the course of 25 rounds (could be even less if there is only 22 or 21 Melee rounds).

And the FB is 70% the size of the largest RBF...

GL... please.

"So overall, the largest RBF in the game currently, is expected to do less than half of the largest FB in the game, over the course of 25 rounds (could be even less if there is only 22 or 21 Melee rounds). "

You are comparing earth worms to electrical cables. There is no relation t be made between the damage done by the RBF and and DD spells.

DD spells are susceptible to AMF and GA, the RBF isn't. RBF grants defensive PTH and magical attack protection. DD spells don't.

I didn't want to get involved in an RBF debate, but this comparison was too obscene for me not to make a comment about it.

i don't think he was comparing them as the same, it would appear to me from reading the thread that he was responding to this:

"Ask Sut how much damage his 5M FB does vs TOE/MgS or even just MgS's alone. I suspect the RBF's damage is not that low in comparison, at 1/2 the level. Ask Bast or NWO how much damage their MM does to MgS minions with a decent AMF level. The RBF damage does not seem that low now, does it?"

"i don't think he was comparing them as the same"

Raw levels of damage were being compared, which does not make any sense when comparing the RBF and DD spells. That is why I posted my comment.

i have no problem with the data in your comment, it is valid and i agree with it 100 percent. the tone of the comment though could be read as accusatory and implies that he was doing it to mislead or misrepresent. i was merely pointing out that i do not think that was his intention and gl was merely responding to something asked in the discussion.

It sort of implied that RBF argumentation is misleading because I think that RBF defenders are grasping at straws when trying to minimize its power.

Slap an RBF on any strategy and that strategy still works. It's that simple. The exception maybe being the ToA, and even then...

I look at all my characters and re-inking any of their tattoos to a RBF will have almost no effect on their fight lists. In most cases, I suspect it makes them even more powerful.

Dang! I got involved in a RBF debate. Getting out now... too painful.

Talion, there are two discussions to the RBF damage capabilities here.

The first is that the RBF damage is 'overpowered'. Which is the reaosn for my second post of the three. From the wiki values we can see that it does the least damage, out of all the various types of damage (UC aside, but I think that's currently broken) in the game. It's easiest to show this along side damage an equal sized DD can inflict, as they work the same way (always hit, etc).

The second was a more specific acocunt, of how they actually compare in game, from one of the single concentrated RBF users to one of the massive Fireballs in the game.

I just gave the largest example of this in return. To see how things look when using the biggest and bestest of both.

And agian, although it can't be reduced by AMF, it can't be boosted by a pair of AGs either. Swings and round a bouts.

"And agian, although it can't be reduced by AMF, it can't be boosted by a pair of AGs either. Swings and round a bouts."

Thank you. Exactly my point. Comparing raw damage output does not make any sense.

I suppose you can call me a RBF defender if you want.

But I agree there are problems with the RBF. I just don't feel its damage is one fo them.

That it provides Evasion isn't a problem in itself, but currently Evasion is too good (I think most of us would agree there?). Taking Evasion from the RBF doesn't solve the problem.

I feel its DD reduction is stupid. A direct reduction after the other damage reduction routines. Silly.

But claiming the RBF is overpowered because of the damage it provides, I won't agree to.

"Thank you. Exactly my point. Comparing raw damage output does not make any sense."

No. that's nothing to do with your point...

It's easy to compare Raw dmaage outputs for the RBF to DD spells. We have it all there in the Wiki.

"It's easy to compare Raw dmaage outputs for the RBF to DD spells. We have it all there in the Wiki."

I am not implying that you *can't* compare it. I am implying that it is currently pointless and misleading to do so.

Take any Familiar centered strategy (even FF) and slap a RBF on it instead. Strategy is still good.

Take RBF centered strategy and slap any Familiar on it. In most cases, you will say: "Oups!"

And I've never tried to imply that the RBF wasn't 'easy'. I think (and said it in my first post) that I dislike the simplicity of it. ;)

But it's ease of use isn't its overwhelming damage. ;)

"But it's ease of use isn't its overwhelming damage. ;)"

It's ease of use is it's inconsequential damage. ;)

Look at lostling's strategy in the first post of this thread. Follow your suggestion of removing the damage reduction powers of the RBF. Then convince me that any changes need to be made to lostling's favorites list.

LoL!

A single RBF user is using the smallest damage dealer in the game.

Is the reaosn they are doing so well because of thier tiny (equivalently tiny...) damage?

Or the fact that the combination of Evasion and the direct DD reduction make them virtually untouchable?

With the 20HP exmaples given, I know which reason I'd plump for. ;)

Talion, you're saying that if he can now be hit by wepaons, and DD isn't absorbed, that with his 20HP he wouldn't need to change his fight list?

o_O

"Or the fact that the combination of Evasion and the direct DD reduction make them virtually untouchable?"

Do you seriously think that lostling as ANY mage teams in his favorites list? Seriously?

Please tell me you do not think lostling has even one mage team in his favorites list.

"Talion, you're saying that if he can now be hit by wepaons, and DD isn't absorbed, that with his 20HP he wouldn't need to change his fight list?"

With 100% XP into Evasion, I think that removing DD reduction from the RBF would not affect lostling's favorites list in any way, shape or form.

If you have enough evasion and a fightlist composed solely of tank teams you can do without HP.

I'd never tried it before; it was a bit like running down the street naked - completely vulnerable, yet liberating at the same time!!


Wouldn't want to do it all the time though.....

;)

I just checked the Battle Log and I am correct.

Most of this thread amount's complaints about the damage type of the RoBF amount to "It's different, I can't counter it using the methods I already have, I hate change."

Ranger's admits that any significant damage reduction works wonders against the RoBF, and yet the cries for a change still happen. I managed to counter dudemus's team with a simple addition of a 20 lvl prot and 100 or so AC on my chanters... that part of the discussion should end.

Evasion is an on off switch for massive damage of bows, which are huge because they only have 3/4 rounds in which to do their job.
Specialization has always been rewarded in CB, and I don't see evasion as being any different. It's real power is also limited to those 3/4 rounds and I can't think of an attribute being any more specialized than that. Why wasn't anyone crying for Ranger when I went triple EC and stalemated him? Aren't stalemates the sign of the apocalypse? Sweet jimmy christmas people... ADAPT!

aack that should read "most of this threads complaints"

"Specialization has always been rewarded in CB, and I don't see evasion as being any different."

Name another strategy in which you can train only one, only one, stat and win, not stalemate, against characters with 3 times your MPR.

Specialization is one thing, exploitation is another.

"Why wasn't anyone crying for Ranger when I went triple EC and stalemated him? Aren't stalemates the sign of the apocalypse?"

Actually no. I don't think stalemates don't really bother anyone. They don't bother me. I know that if someone wants to stalemate against me, they can go right ahead and do it. I think it's the 'win without even thinking or making any effort' thing that bothers most people.

The example Ranger wanted.

Sute's FB: 5,523,700
Expected Damage per round: 3,590,405

Dude's RBF: 2,813,640
Expected Damage per round: 562,728

Dudes damage per round is about 16% of that of Sutes.

So facing just a MgS, it would need to be +84 to bring Sute down to Dude's damage ranges...

I think my comments are looking like personal attacks, so I apologize about that. That is never my intention.

I will not apologize for hating the RBF though. :)

Evasion isn't quite an on/off switch... sure it works wonders in ranged, but if it is high enough it can ultimately stop all melee hits as well. Even with my +120 mh and a ToA of 4.3+ mil I can't hit every round vs higher evasions. Not just every round but every other round as well. It is hard for any non-usd weapon to hit any decent sized evasion.

GL, what if you compared using Dude's MTL for the RBF: 5,587,010.

The RBF damage output is now 1,117,402 and that makes a huge difference.

" Get some AC, and perhaps it does 300-400k a round. Over 20 rounds that is about 8M damage, enough to kill most teams."

This is the main point, and problem.

The RBF does tiny damage. But it grants near invulnerability to deal that tiny damage over the numerous rounds of a whole fight.

Lower the damage, take it away even, and it still won't change the fact a 20HP single minon can last the whole fight.

And this is the whole problem.

The defneses the tattoo provides to both Physical and Magical damage.

One is a problem with the design of the tattoo, the other a problem with a general skill.

I just don't want a knee jerk reaction changing something that won't solve the problem, and ruin a nice new dymanic bought to CB that is causing people to need to adapt.

For the last time, fix Evasion. Fix the massive MTL and do anything to change the DD reduction on the RBF.

Problem solved.

The example Ranger wanted.

Sute's FB: 5,523,700
Expected Damage per round: 3,590,405

Dude's MTL RBF: 5,587,010
Expected Damage per round: 1,117,402

Dudes damage per round would be about 31% of that of Sutes.

So facing just a MgS, it would need to be +59 to bring Sute down to Dude's damage ranges...

Talion, that's still about 31% of Sutes damage.

Sute would then need to face a +69 Mgs.

Besides, I still claim, vigerously, that the MTL is far too high. Lower that, and you wouldn't even need the comparison.

I think that problem would be solved by making the RBF damage hits dependent on offensive DX.

Then the RBF would become a nice defensive tattoo with the occasional bonus of dealing extra damage against certain opponents during melee rounds.

Just for the record, the highest MGS in the game is +51. ;) 18 short of whats needed to bring Sute down to Dudes damage levels. ;)

To play an effective tank in the current state of the game, you better spend all the money you make into upping +. Name your weapon, your arrows help. Using defensive ammo is a must if you are clan fighting. If your tank strategy doesn't focus on + and dex to a good extent, don't expect to hit.

On a side note, I'd like to point out that RoBF's evasion boosting property is most definitely not working.

"On a side note, I'd like to point out that RoBF's evasion boosting property is most definitely not working."

I noticed that too during my last NCB.

Yes the DB property is not working properly, I have already tested that and posted my findings. But if it was working properly then the Tat would be even more overpowered with the evasion + DB property working.

"The example Ranger wanted.

Sute's FB: 5,523,700
Expected Damage per round: 3,590,405

Dude's MTL RBF: 5,587,010
Expected Damage per round: 1,117,402

Dudes damage per round would be about 31% of that of Sutes.

So facing just a MgS, it would need to be +59 to bring Sute down to Dude's damage ranges..."

What about AMF? An AMF will both lower Sut's damage and deal it back to him. Then add the MgS/EH etc...

Sut's FB damage is vulnerable to GA also. RBF just hits and hits and hits with no return damage.

Would you rather do x damage per round for 20 rounds without return or 2-3x with return damage? Duh?

Or you could always, exactly like the exmaple RBF characters, pick your fight list to not include AMF/MGS users.

Oh and it's more like 4-5x Damage, not 2-3 (6 times f you use his actual Tattoo). I see you're using the MTL (which we've both agreed is too large) and not Dudes actual Tattoo (even if its slightly small).

Mages are screwed versus AMF teams. Tanks are screwed versus EC. So the RBF has no EO that targets it (and heaven forbid some thought must be applied to GA now), and this is still a problem?

"Mages are screwed versus AMF teams. Tanks are screwed versus EC. So the RBF has no EO that targets it (and heaven forbid some thought must be applied to GA now), and this is still a problem? "

YES!!! Gosh Darn It, YES YES YES!!!

Checks and balances GL. The RBF has very little. AC/TOE/protection. So everyone now has to be a heavy tank/wall. Garbage, total Garbage!!!

Slap on a RBF, just learn evasion and BAMM-your set for quite a while picking on high score tanks. Pure Garbage!.

looks pretty effective to me fex..

It's the control Ranger.

The centre line. The low damage that can't be countered, but can't be boosted. It's different.

The issue witht he RBF is its survivability, not its damage.

You mentioned Dudes being reduced to 300 a round. That's pathetic. I did that amount of damage, at a lower MPR, with UC. Mutliple times a round.

Why my UC character wasn't as 'powerful', is because I died. It had no where near the survivbility that a RBF grants.

Campaign to get Evasion changed. Campaign to change the DD reduction, and I'm 100% positive you'll never see the RBF as overpowered again.

Especially if MTL is also lowered.

just learn EC and BAMM-your set for quite a while picking on high score tanks.

Any differnet? Sub EC for AMF and Mages. Different then?

The damage is not that freaking low.

I know things state 20% level in damage, however my 6.5M tattoo does up to 1.7M a round to low AC minions. More like 25% if you look at it.

800k a round to low AC minions over the course of 20 rounds, for a tattoo under 3M.

Ask Barzoo if the RBF's damage is too low vs his 2.1M TOE and his AC vs Lostling. Vs someone 1/3 his PR/MPR with a lower tattoo then his TOE.

Ask anyone that dies in 20 rounds from a RBF all the while swinging and missing.

Yes evasion is too powerful, I posted a recent thread on it and got ridiculed on it.

Evasion will not change due to the too high missile damage. The RBF rides that coattail. Since evasion will not change, the RBF has to in some way.

"Ask Barzoo if the RBF's damage is too low vs his 2.1M TOE and his AC vs Lostling. Vs someone 1/3 his PR/MPR with a lower tattoo then his TOE."

What's Lostings Tattoo's size? Is BM's strat designed to deal with the new RBF?

"Ask anyone that dies in 20 rounds from a RBF all the while swinging and missing."

Evasion. Not the RBF.

"Yes evasion is too powerful, I posted a recent thread on it and got ridiculed on it."

You weren't ridiculed. I certainly wasn't ridiculing you there.

"Evasion will not change due to the too high missile damage. The RBF rides that coattail. Since evasion will not change, the RBF has to in some way."

That's (using a WoWism) changing the symptom. not the problem. A very bad way to go about things.

And not one I'll ever support.

It would be difefrne tif the design of the RBF changed to not include Evasion, but not if the reason is it's too powerful with it (when we all know full well Evasion is the problem).

"just learn EC and BAMM-your set for quite a while picking on high score tanks.

Any different? Sub EC for AMF and Mages. Different then?"

OMG, Can people not read? Are things not that obvious?

Where, o where, can someone 1/3 your MPR have an EC high enough to overcome your strength???? NOWHERE. Sure, there have been cases of people using 3 of 4 minions on EC, but them they have no real attack. A stalemate. RBF users of 1/3 the MPR of higher level tanks actually can do enough damage to BEAT higher level tanks.

Where, o where, can someone with 1/3 your MPR have an AMF high enough to stop your MM/FB/COC???? NOWHERE.

Yes, you can use AMF and EC to counter DD and physical damage, certainly. But you need a COMPARABLE or HIGHER MPR!!!!!!!!

Please, o Please give me a free retrain and 1 free retrain saved up. Then I can make Koy completely invulnerable to all attacks using the RBF. Why do I not do it now? The fear of the eventual RBF nerf. Only took 12 months for the VB nerf, and I lose quite a bit of money on that one. Never again. When something is too powerful, you can just see it as bright as the sun.

Meanwhile, fairly quietly and quickly rising Horseguy is sitting at number 14 in the standings, with a month to go on his NCB, with a team that was designed pretty much to be good against the RBF.

There's adaption for you.

Net Worth: $190,293,343--On horseguy.

Certainly you can use NW to counter the RBF.

Whats the NW on RBF users?

A tattoo, AOF, EB, EG, EC, and your done.

Just look at the NW on Koy, pre RBF vs post RBF.

If that does not tell you quite a lot, I have no idea what else can.

I could drop my MSB if I changed Cloudscape to AMF. Thereby lowering my total NW on Koy to under 170M, of which 115 is my tattoo.

And I suspect, even though I have no fightlogs to support it, that horseguy and his massive COC cannot even beat Dudemus with over 2x the NW.

MTL is too high. Heh. A broken record +1 post. Probably time for me to take a break posting here.

There's no reaosn MTL should be higher than MPR. Lower it to that, and you solve a multitude of problems.

I'm out. Maybe I'll start posting agian next changemonth.

What I am about to say is purely anecdotal, but I found it interesting:

I finally got around to checking the "Standard" opponent list to see what had crept up the scale in recent weeks (had forgotten to do so in several weeks...)

I found three 2,000,000+ score characters and added them: MrMunch, MI5, and Bartman 2.0. Then I inspected them... All RoBF teams.

Now, I try to check the opponent list once in a while to add new blood. Last few times there hasn't been much. The 1.7 million to 2 million score range has a lot of turnover, but 2 million plus has been relatively inert.

Now I added three folks at one time, all having one thing in common.

Will the adaptation catch up, as JW just pointed out? We'll see, and it is an exciting time. But it is clear that the RoBF is getting used more and that it works well -- score shows that. And you don't raise score just by stalemating higher opponents...you have to be winning.

I am not bashing the simplicity of the RoBF strategies, and I am not even taking sides. But the RoBF is effective, and I WOULD tend to say more effective than anything else right now as far as a comprehensive strat that is cheap to run.

(Note: I think scores have been rising lately, my guess is Violent Femmes being able to beat King of Pain has some trickle down with that... So teams around 2 million probably would have been at 1.8 or 1.9 a few weeks ago...)

Okay, so I've never claimed to be a math or numbers guy, so I'm not going try and post stats - I'll just stick to anecdotal evidence.

Common sense: you have a character on your list that you beat regularly for a long time, and suddenly, you start losing. You check the character to see what's changed, right?

Usually, for me, it has always been because an NUB or NCB has finally caught up and started outgrowing me, no matter what my strat or the opponent's strat was (very rarely, it's because they rented some uber equipment).

Since the RoBF buff, whenever it happens, 4 out of 5 times I find myself thinking "they couldn't have grown that much that fast", and I discover that they didn't -they just switched to some combination of RoBF and Evasion.

That's from whence my point of view on this has evolved - it kind of defines "overpowered" to me....

Scores are also up due to you double/triple tapping me bring my score down. Yours goes up and a cascade occurs.

Same with Conundrum and Oxcha when my MH comes back from rentals.

But your right about the RBF. Quick, easy and cheap to run very effectively.

The MTL is a bit high, but making it equal to MPR would really nerf familiars. Take Sut for instance. A 3M FF even boosted a bit by AGs (as COI cannot be junctioned on a familar) would get eaten badly by AMF.

Imagine how effective novice would be with only a 2.3M IF instead of his 4M one.

Perhaps MTL = 2x VPR would be better. I hope most of us can live with that. Just the ability to deal non returnable damage constantly always hitting, while dodging physical damage, and being resistant to magic damage is enough.

And when Barzoo says its overpowered, thats enough evidence for me!

QBsutekh137, 1:06 PM EST
"(Note: I think scores have been rising lately, my guess is Violent Femmes being able to beat King of Pain has some trickle down with that... So teams around 2 million probably would have been at 1.8 or 1.9 a few weeks ago...)"

It also helps that Novice changed his strat in the slight and now can Beat Dixie Cousins, which he was losing to before which kept his score down to the 2.5 mil range.

All it would take for me to hit 3 mil + score is to keep Conundrum from attacking and beating me. It seems to be that all it takes is one person that attacks you thats under your Score to keep you from going anywhere and stagnating at a certain score range.

I had a score around 1.6mil earlier, now it got boosted to a solid 1.9mil topping off at 2mil. So yeah scores have been boosted.
But that has nothing to do with the RoBF or the overpowered evasion or the overpowered ranged damage done by bows.

Yes, I did forget about my multiple-taps -- I can't resist breaking those huge win streaks! *smile*

Theres no way I could beat Dude yet, for a few reasons:

1. My CoC is not really that massive, with my CoI the effect is 2,364,164. If I run into an AMF effect of over .32 I only get 4 castings off before I die from backlash.

2. My mages HP is way too low right now. Against teams with no AMF/AMF that casts for an effect <.32 its no problem, since my PL wall sucks up a lot of damage for me.

3. A good chunk of my NW/mpr is devoted to foiling tank teams right now.

For the next month I will be working exclusively on HP/DD for my mage, so lets see in one month if I can handle a BIG AMF and an RoBF in the top ranks.

Much to mu surprise Dude cannot beat me *smile*

His AMF casts for .61 on my mage (would be higher without NSC), which means I get 2 castings off before I am dead. Those castings landed about 300k damage, which is pitiful.

Equally pitiful is the RoBF damage. Against my PL minion the highest round of damage was 259906, with the lowest being 181025. It would have taken him about 10 extra rounds to finish the job :)

The RoBF is an insult to anyone who has put thought and time into making a good strategy.

I'm having a dig at the item, not the people who are using them. They are using in game items, such as everyone else.

If left unchanged... then, well... Let the person with the biggest RoBF win.

i think it is important to point out some differences here. lostling's strat is a focused strategy mine is more of a try to stop it all strat. he has no extra hp or amf that i have nor my guardian angel. he is going after specific targets as he grows i am trying to keep from getting farmed. hehe.

this may be the reason or it may just all even out in the upper ranks, i will be curious to watch and see, but i can no longer fight up at all as i have stated many times. i don't think anyone has a higher mpr in my list and definitely not a higher score than me.

as i have also stated many times, the robf may be great during part of the game but until we get more up top we really don't know yet how it will affect the upper echelons.

Even the RoBF damage from the biggest RoBF in the game isn't incredible. The highest I saw was 951,360, with the lowest being 672,892.

Apologies for the double tap in the mix XD

But horseguy,

You have a TOE, not everyone does.

6-900k is quite a lot given a TOE.

So there IS a counter, it does WORK... even when the counter is HALF the size of the RoBF in question...

I think the hazing of the RoBF needs to stop... so what it's the new guy... we've got bigger problems, and more unbalanced stuff to complain about than this.

How can it be a counter when I still do 600k damage a round and eat through his team in 10 rounds without any physical attack at all.

I attack without my MSB and still destroy him. My AMF is woefully low (500k) and my EC is way too much more then I need to take out his minitank. His evasion does not matter since I do not use a MSB.

How can you say the RBF is not overpowed in this case.

Is not 600-900k damage a round not subject to AMF or GA or MgS mitigation not enough?

Do you know how many tanks would love to hit an evasion minion 1 time a round for that much damage? Plenty.

And my RBF does 750k to 1.1M damage when I attack Horseguy, not 600-900k.

Again-

Constantly hitting, not subject to AMF or GA. All the while conveying some degree of magic protection to the minion wearing it.

I'm sure if I had a 4 mil ToE that would not be the case. As it stands right now my tattoo is fairly low for my MPR. I can only afford to grow it about 1.5 mil NW a week, due to having to use the RoE with my NCB.

This vs a nearly 5M TOE:


Upir burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (1034698)
Upir takes damage from his own Decay (0)!
Upir's Decay hit Cloudscape [182514]
R.I.P. Upir


Lekunhawk burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (1230589)
Lorni bruised Cloudscape with Carsomyr [444]
Lorni draws strength from his weapon! [88]
R.I.P. Lekunhawk


Gera burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (1198558)
Lorni bruised Cloudscape with Carsomyr [391]
Lorni draws strength from his weapon! [78]
R.I.P. Gera


Lorni burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (825309)
Lorni tapped Cloudscape with Carsomyr [389]
Lorni draws strength from his weapon! [77]
Lorni regenerated 52,037 HP


Lorni burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (694216)
Lorni bruised Cloudscape with Carsomyr [498]
Lorni draws strength from his weapon! [99]
Lorni regenerated 52,037 HP


Lorni burns from the flames surrounding Cloudscape (860120)
Lorni tapped Cloudscape with Carsomyr [348]
Lorni draws strength from his weapon! [69]
Lorni tapped Cloudscape with Carsomyr [392]
Lorni draws strength from his weapon! [78]
Lorni regenerated 52,037 HP
R.I.P. Lorni

True, his AC is low, only 112 on Lorni, but not everyone has high AC or can have it. But it is a very high TOE,

I think the fact I can slug it out 14 rounds with some one who is about double my PR says a lot of the damage of the RoBF. What if we were of am equal PR? My team isn't even 2 mil mpr yet.

Although if your AMF was bigger this wouldn't be the case, but 14 rounds is still a long time for a huge tattoo like that to kill some one about half of your PR.

I would like to draw attention to the DD reduction on the robf. Fighting Draco while he wears rangers tattoo a 4.7mil coc does 0 damage to the tat wearer the whole fight. Draco casts 0.07 amf on me. The robf is quite effective vs spread damage since it keeps 1 minion alive to distribute damage the whole fight. Think about how much more effective the robf would be if Draco was casting a larger amf.

what does mine do with my healthy amf then?

casting a 0.36 amf this is what the fight looks like

Ranged Combat

Juggernaut takes damage from his own Cone of Cold (853165)!
Juggernaut's Cone of Cold hit the pacifist [1232970]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Juggernaut (276572)


Melee Combat

Juggernaut takes damage from his own Cone of Cold (853165)!
Juggernaut's Cone of Cold hit the pacifist [1000161]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Juggernaut (270835)
Juggernaut burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (454330)
PwnyBoy absorbs damage [454330]

PwnyBoy regenerated 143,785 HP

Juggernaut takes damage from his own Cone of Cold (853165)!
Juggernaut's Cone of Cold hit the pacifist [1437794]
the pacifist's Guardian Angel smote Juggernaut (285163)
Juggernaut cries "Stay Gold Pwnyboy. Stay Gold.!"
PwnyBoy burns from the flames surrounding the pacifist (250114)

PwnyBoy regenerated 143,785 HP
R.I.P. Juggernaut R.I.P. the pacifist

as a single minion i overwhelm the robf. Since my cone of cold is concentrated.

the above was a fight using an roe also. My toe is just defensive for now.

so the largest tat in the game rocks. the magic reduction on a mid-ranged one is hardly amazing though even with the largest amf in game used?

the largest amf is the game casting against one of the largest dd in the game and i have NSc.

wow I thought that backlash damage was with the ToE...I almost threw my strat out the window ha

yea coc has some serious backlash damage. toe and ac deals with it quite nicely tho.

AC has nothing to do with AMF backlash.

Only the TOE helps.

you are beating me about 95 percent of the time over the last week. is that with the roe on for offense? the robf dd reduction hardly seems so overpowered to me. your mpr is about 300k greater than mine.

the pacifist cast Antimagic Field on Gordon Gano familiar (0.37)

(HIGH)
Gordon familiar takes damage from his own Cone of Cold (785496)!
Gordon familiar's Cone of Cold hit the pacifist [2079849]

(LOW)
Gordon familiar takes damage from his own Cone of Cold (785496)!
Gordon familiar's Cone of Cold hit the pacifist [865052]

What I can't understand is why in the world AB would be taking more blowback than I am while gets hit for a lower AMF...

I smell a bug...

yup that was with the roe on offence.

well hell, here i was thinking i was getting an honest win and moving up in the world!

LeadenClaw/ColonelCustard explained it I think...

the .36 cast on AB returns 36% of his level
the .37 cast on my familiar returns .37 of it's level...

I'll run the numbers after work and see if they match up

It's not 36% of the spell level. I meant it's 36% of something that has a linear relation with level.
Based on figures nov gave me, Atomic Boy's CoC is about 119% as powerful as nov's familiar's spell level. I divided the backlash damage AB got (which is the same every round, if you notice) by the backlash damage nov got, and got 108.6%. I think that AB has a fair bit more damage reduction that novice's familiar, not to mention that novice got AMF'd 1% harder, and that it would probably match up if not for these factors. I.E. If both of their ACs and Protections were the same, and both had been hit for .36 AMF, AB would've sustained ~119% the backlash that novice's IF did.

And another falls off my fight list... Congratulations on your RoBF usage, Black Sophist! *smile*

But Sut,

The RBF is in no way overpowered. And Draco is not using my RBF vs you.

Well, as with dudemus, I can appreciate why Draco beats me... A decent AMF, decent EC (though the EC apparently didn't help him before much since I could beat him)... His team is mighty, nice NW and a high PR. I really have no problem not being able to beat him.

But going with Barzoo's anecdote above: Someone I never had a problem with switches to RoBF and now beats me.

If Draco would weigh in and confirm he can still beat the rest of his fightlist as well, then we know the RoBF is a good fit. Also, did he retrain anything else? What was his tattoo before? Etc. No one answer is always right, but when additional success seem to converge an awful lot on RoBF, that has got to be saying something, no?

beats, draws or stalemates?

Wasn't DrAco using a ToA before? Which would explain why he couldn't beat you before; you're fairly well set up to take on an old fashioned ToA tank team. Whereas the RBF is pretty damn good against mages apparently.

Interesting what one robf does for a strat... even though my strat is based on using a ToA... but I still beat my list with a robf and added one person to the list.

Started with a win, then all draws, dudemus. So yeah, I am even worse against him than I am against you. *smile*

Yes, Johnny, good point. That's why I would be very interested to know if he lost other tanks off his fight list. If he didn't, but can now add some mages, then isn't that saying something?

Well lets just say everyone is still on my list that was on it before... all I did was change from ToA to Robf and thats it... no untraining or anything... and this strat isn't based on Robf... so If I untrained and trained my strat based off of Robf I would be way better off.

Thanks for the input. Could you add any other mages, or just me? Add some other RoBF users, perhaps?

And I might slightly amend your comment (from my perspective) that you have a very balanced team. Good native HP, nice wall, four minion... So I think a lot of different tattoos could work for you. I bet a ToE might work against me as well as the RoBF, for example.

Nice change. *smile*

Well with Ranger's Robf I could beat Conundrum unless he used his AoI and toe on his Mage... but thats an easy fix of using higher Amf... Currently I use a 4.3 mil robf and I can add Dude to my list... and I haven't really tried anyone else yet. But if my strat was based more on using an robf... I.E. Higher Amf, I could beat Conundrum and maybe add Nwo... Otherwise there isn't any change to my list. So that says something about being overpowered... considering all I did was change my tat and I could add two more characters to my fightlist.

Hm, like I said, though, a ToE might have had a pretty good result too, though I guess your offense would go to crap without the ToA. The RoBF provides great damage reduction against mages while doling out just enough offense (with no retaliation or foil) to get by... Very interesting stuff!

Gah, suckered back in. I promise to myself I'll try to make this my last post on the subject until the next changemonth.

If it wasn't for the great, broken, uber, overpowered, super defense the RBF gives (Half of which has nothing at all to do with the Tattoo itself), you wouldn't be able to last long enough for the tiny unfoilable damage it doils out to make a difference.

Fix Evasion. Fix the DD reduction. Lay these threads to dust.

i would like to make a few points
1. i really dont appreciate that people keep saying that ROBF users (like me)(ok mostly me) dont put thoughts in strategy
2. for the last time i dont use an ROBF to fight lol...
3. if you get killed by ROBF users with low damage then UP YOUR HP and AC... thought that should be obvious enough... like adapt? (although i agree that the damage and DD reduction should be reduced to like 15%)
4. before i used an ROBF i used a TOA + SOD + expshots as a defensive set up but like my goal was to keep my 100% bonus and earn money... so i switched to ROBF because i didnt want to upgrade my SOD
5. personally i dont see any other way thats cheap and able to get this many 100% bonus lol

Well GL... I have to disagree with you there. Look at it from my point of view...

When I fight Hubbell, Half of my Mpr goes for naught... thats a 2.9 mil level AS and a 2.8 mil level evasion that don't do a darn thing. So I am effectively fighting at 1.25 mil mpr and still beating Hubbell. If that doesn't Scream Overpowered I don't know what does.

Now if RoBF stays the way it is I will definitely adjust my strat to use every strength of the RoBF.

DM killing your AS is not the same as making your MPR worthless. That's using MPR to counter MPR. When your MPR goes to waste is when you use, for instance, a massive AMF against a tank, or a massive EC against someone with no ST, DX, or Evasion.

Addendum - you can subtract your Evasion from your MPR against Hubbell -- that for sure has no effect against a mage. The AS is legitimately countered, though.

Draco,

Adding a 4.3 Mil RBF to your current set up gives you an additonal direct reduction to DD of 860,000.

Ignoring AC/Protection reduciton for a moment, Sutes 3,590,405 expected damage per round is split by four versus you.

The RBF minion would be expected to take 897,601 damage.

ith the RBF reducing 860,000 I'd expect that minion (with AC and any Prot) to take nothing at all from Sutes FB until minions of yours die.

It's no wonder you now beat him really. Is it?

Or does the added damage the RBF do swing the balance?

First round I lose two minions.... that leaves that same fireball split between two minions... by the end of the fight I only have my robf minion left... and with the difference in DD damage per round my robf minion has anywhere from full 1.8 mil hp to 400k hp left.

How long did they last before using the RBF?

Is it the survivability versus Sutes FB that is making you win, or the burning damage the RBF does to him?

It also helps that I actually hit him every round due to nothing able to counter the always hitting of the Robf. His Evasion just like many other evasions out there were stopping my 4.3 mil toa + 120 named MH from hitting him at all... Well looks like the ToA Nerf just got more people to go Robf... And I also know that Mikel is planning on changing to Robf if it doesn't get hcanged. That makes what... Ranger, Edy, and Mikel all Robf users.... Now if 3 of the top 10 change to Robf that should really show something.

Yeah, that Evasion is so broken. ;)

Before the RoBF my team would only last 4 rounds... maybe 5... the damage I due to him from the RoBF helps put him over the top.

Is there something he can change to win?

Prolly if he went duel MM he would win again... but then he would lose a few others from his list.

But dual MM puts him in the situation where he is targeting MgS walls.

Not really something he wants.

"1. i really dont appreciate that people keep saying that ROBF users (like me)(ok mostly me) dont put thoughts in strategy"

I never stated you did not use strategy. I even gave kudos to you for doing something excellent via the rules. And again I say Kudos!!!

"2. for the last time i dont use an ROBF to fight lol..."

But you do use it for defense and that alone shows its power, given your not farmed and keep a nice high score/pr ratio.

"3. if you get killed by ROBF users with low damage then UP YOUR HP and AC... thought that should be obvious enough... like adapt? (although i agree that the damage and DD reduction should be reduced to like 15%)"

Easier said then done. This does, of course, cost CB2, not something everyone has. Not everyone can use the TOE on their character.

"4. before i used an ROBF i used a TOA + SOD + expshots as a defensive set up but like my goal was to keep my 100% bonus and earn money... so i switched to ROBF because i didnt want to upgrade my SOD"

Exactly, contant damage, not vulnerable to GA/AMF without cost.

"5. personally i dont see any other way thats cheap and able to get this many 100% bonus lol"

Exactly the point!! Cheap and very very effective.

I swear someone has mentioned this already - I read through the ENTIRE thread, but I can't seem to find it a second time - but if you're getting farmed by a RoBF user, discussing it is fine, but doing something about it yourself is always a faster answer.

First solution: More HP? It's compatible with all teams, it's never too late to start training it, and it attacks the RoBF's weakest point: low damage output.

Second solution: Switch to CoC? That's what I did :). Also, if you didn't know, I ran a RoBF strat right before this one. I don't see why so many are going crazy about retrains and all - if you want a change, you should be willing to take a hit, and that should include MPR. Already mentioned by a bunch of people.

Third solution: Moar AC! Mentioned many times already too. Don't think I need to go over it.

Fourth (least advisable) solution: Fight fire with fire? :3. RoBFs work wonders, and if you're so enraged by a RoBF team farming you, get one yourself! Of course, mentioned already as well.

These suggestions all speak to any users who have any frustration towards the RoBF, and it's apparent lack of balance.

Referring more to the higher tier(s) here! I've seen a lot of you telling us that the RoBF works well with a strategy that it's not made for. I've seen a lot of comments on how so-and-so added a new fight list character because s/he switched to a RoBF. Do you know what you want to do if you don't want to get farmed by the above-mentioned character? Easy! You also need to change your strategy :P. If you don't want to, deal with it. Change requires more changes to counter it.

Speaking specifically to Draco's new addition - he didn't change his strategy. His fightlist shouldn't change much at all. At such a high PR/MPR level, his Tattoo matters, sure, but his equipment and abilities matter a lot more. One re-ink shouldn't shock everyone.

To the lower MPR people! RoBF is a great strategy - if you like stale and boring clicking. As mentioned many many times, it's a great way to cheaply increase your MPR and money without spending much. Of course, it's not like you can do anything with money other than spend it, anyway. Loaning doesn't count :P. Use at your own discretion.

To everyone: I've also seen a lot of talk about how the RoBF allows you to save your money. This is a double-edged sword. RoBF allows for no pumping of NW, except for items that support Eva or AMF (assuming a single minion strategy). Which is also why the low damage of the RoBF should be exploited at every turn by those getting farmed by such strats. Sure, you can use the single minion (or whatever number) RoBF to make money, but I thought everyone did that? You're going to spend money somewhere, so who cares?

Finally, to Veri: I believe it's a great strategy. Item-based strategies would be more viable, and more common, if we had weirder items like the RoBF. If you look at his battle log, he's giving a lot of young mages out there nice XP and money ;P. Tit for tat, look at that! He's being farmed more times than he's farming. Giving back to the community, don't you think?

Also, I don't want to get into any semantics, but I thought exploitation would have something to do with using it in a manner not intended, or against rules/illegal or something like that.

And that ends my $500k!

Oh, and thanks for the honourable mention, Ulord :3.

1. ranger not you =x
2. i DO get farmed like alot lol
3. HP being the main point...

I'm not interested in changing my strategy. Like I said, I have no problem with not being able to beat Black Sophist.

1. Cool
2. You get farmed by people much much higher then comparable teams, just look at the PR/MPR of those that can hit, or beat you.
3. Much easier said then done. One can pump up their HP, less xp for things like dex or AMF or GA, etc...

One can always profess a solution to a problem, however sometimes the solution is not easily obtained.

IE: For novice on Violent Femmes to get more AC, he would have to use armors detrimental to his team. Armors that would give more AC but magic penalties. He could use a TOE, but then have no attack. He could boost protection, but would have to give up other stats/spells/skills on that minion. He could boost his AS, but then lower his DM.

It is not always easy to get more HP/AC/endurance or protection. Saying it over and over again will not make it so.

Contrary, aside from the AC/TOE/endurance/protection scheme of damage reduction (which works for ALL types of damage), DD has to worry about AMF/GA, while physical has to deal with EC/GA. The RBF user has none of these worries to deal with.

Making such a strategy quite brilliant in its simplicity. Being able to combine 2 quite effective things into a viable, powerful character---The RBF and evasion.

Ever hear of the KISS solution to a problem? Keep It Simple Stupid.

I didn't mean for my solutions to be taken and implemented. They were simply a collection of those outlined in above posts for those who were spouting off this and that about the RoBF being unbalanced.


Just out of curiousity, do you ever get bored with that set-up, Lost?

Hey now wait a sec hold on here, I am on the RoBF bandwagon, I joined up, signed up, sold out. I am trying to win CB2 and my RoBF NCB is headed to a sustainable 1mil+ score with a bullet. It will be my fourth defensively sustainable 1mil+ score using 4 completely different strategies. So just let him get enough MPR to hold him above that level after a nerf, and then nerf it. If you nerf it too soon, then it will greatly slow down my progress. Easily this is the fastest and easiest of all my strats to gain and maintain. Just need the NCB period. Thanks.

Heh. I just switched back to an RBF. I felt like seeing who can beat me with it and who can't. Admittedly I haven't changed anything else around - I have no AMF for instance. And I've just lost half my damage in ranged. But.

I just lost half my fightlist. Including a much smaller RBF team who can now beat me conclusively. I haven't lost anybody from the top of my fightlist thanks to my evasion so my score hasn't dropped. And I haven't tested yet to see if I can fight anybody else at this score level now. But it's only confirmed that I, at least, was better off running a tank team.

And the people I can beat at this score I can beat without a tattoo, with 700k dex and 800k st. All in ranged. So the RBF doesn't even factor in those battles.

yep i do get bored =x but i still enjoy seeing the money pile up... i might try another strat if i could get the same results

Kudos to you JW if you can fight without tattoo. It wouldn't matter so much that you are getting farmed more since you are not clanning. The drop in PR must be doing wonders to your CB (you can use RoE too). I wish I can do that :(.

I lost a couple more people. I can beat them without a tattoo but it's on the line between win and lose; I think I'd prefer to get the rewards. But still to maintain roughly the same score without a tattoo is pretty good going. Shame I sold my RoE!

To answer the original question I would say yes it is a strategy. It is a very focused strat. As far as how effective it is I will say this....


Hivemind missed Lucifer


Hivemind missed Lucifer


Hivemind missed Lucifer


Hivemind missed Lucifer
Hiveswarm's Cone of Cold hit Lucifer [465744]

R.I.P. Lucifer

At 350k more MPR, one would hope you can beat him.

it doesnt take someone with a larger MPR to beat me with DD lol... just around 300k MPR should do it i guess

Well the lowest MPR character you current lose to is 460k.

And if you learn a bit of AMF, I am sure you will start to beat those lower MPR characters.

i suppose i should lol