Those were the days... (in General)

QBJohnnywas April 7 2008 9:26 AM EDT

Has CB always been like this? I seem to remember days when if there were as many major changes as we've just seen the forums would be full of threads about them; big jolly party threads, dancing around talking about the best way to roll with the changes; new ways of doing things. Strategies even. Ah strategies. I remember those.

These days it seems like it's just one big complaining fest after another. I'm not talking about the bugs in the system. But the threads that declare this is broken. That is overpowered. This shouldn't be able to do that because I can do this kind of thread. There are simply too many threads with the tone of ownership as well. I come here with the attitude that this is Jon's game and I'm just playing; squatting in his server until I can afford to pay the rent on one of my own.

Mostly when I argue a point it's that principle that's at stake; not necessarily the argument. Although it's fun to argue the toss at every turn. But in the end for the most part Jon decides what he's going to do about CB. And it's not always what anybody expects. In some cases it's the exact opposite. It doesn't always work out for the best for everyone.

And then you see something that I don't quite understand. People getting upset that their toys don't work as they should, or aren't worth as much as they were before. As if they own that tiny bit of data. As if they aren't getting this lovely little game for nothing.

I'm getting a little bit fed up of it all to be frank. I'm forum sick. So carry on with the complaints and the arguments. I'm bowing out of those for the time being I think. But the next time you throw one of those out, consider whether you're really doing it for the good of the game or the good of your game.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 7 2008 9:29 AM EDT

I'm afraid that posting for the good of your game can work so don't expect to see it go away any time soon.

QBRanger April 7 2008 9:42 AM EDT

If you do not like it, don't read or post.

However, a number of bugs and fixes have occurred from posts people make.

And while it may seem to you that some of the posts are "for the good of your game" perhaps they are for the good of the game as a whole. Do not let your dislike for certain people predispose you to a fixed line of thinking.

That stated: The new changes are quite good and nice, but with any radical change, there will be a lot of people that have problems and some actually like to vent a bit in the forums. I find nothing wrong with it. If I do not like a thread, I may just move on, perhaps you should do the same.

Daz April 7 2008 9:55 AM EDT

Yeah, big changes used to be, "Oh, thats different. It appears to have broken my strategy. I think if I do this it'll work out, though"

These days people just seem to complain about it (It's usually Ranger...) and then after a few days to think about it, they realise that the change is actually better (This one is also usually Ranger :P )

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 7 2008 10:10 AM EDT

hmm, i seem to remember a threat from todd to quit after nearly every major change. in part that is where the joke about giving todd an unfair advantage came from. i also remember that after the initial round of flames and whines, then people would get down to the strategizing.

Daz April 7 2008 10:12 AM EDT

Yeah, that's probably true. I just seem to remember CB of the past being full of flowers and chirping birds and stuff.

Wasp [C and S Forgery Lmtd.] April 7 2008 10:53 AM EDT

Perhaps the game was more balanced back then, compared to now. Usually when I see threads with little intellectual input put in, I don't read them. I enjoy a good a good argument/discussion with some good points from either side though, makes for good reading and thought : )

Ulord[NK] April 7 2008 10:54 AM EDT

That's a sign that you are getting old :P. Selective memory of the good old days when kids stayed off your lawn.

Daz April 7 2008 10:56 AM EDT

I'm 20 and I'm old, Jaded and Bitter :)

QBBarzooMonkey April 7 2008 11:04 AM EDT

The complaining threads are fine and have their place and a certain amount of good to them, but I can certainly see JW's point when they dominate the forums, by far - especially when they are "knee-jerk" reactions that just end up rescinded later.

And I find it funny, but not surprising, that the most prolific of those style of posters would respond with "if you don't like it leave it" - there's not much left except for sales and PR threads then...

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] April 7 2008 11:52 AM EDT

Exactly ranger but you cant really just go on to the next thread when all it is is someone else complaining can you??

QBsutekh137 April 7 2008 12:05 PM EDT

I would have to say I remember many, many threads of "complaining", even back in the day...because I was writing them!

I don't think there is anything wrong with making a post basically saying, "I don't see why so-and-so can beat me, seems broken." Then, the community helps analyze things like battle dynamics, "effective" PR (like bright folks who help talk me off the ledge by realizing 25-30% of my MPR (DM) is wasted on certain targets), and other factors that determine fairness and balance. Ranger recently mentioned his fights with Iconics 3e, and how he felt the exbow drains too much. I happen to agree with him 100%, and I am glad I finally read the post (Ranger has pointed out the exbow issue in the past, I just never read it until yesterday). The exbow is astoundingly powerful, and I think it is too powerful. 8.5 million STR drain with one scratch? People seriously think that is an acceptable game dynamic and we should all just be talking about how great it is and how to strategerize with it? Ack!

Yes, tone goes a long way, and I do not like ownership in threads either. If one posts publicly, one shouldn't't get all holier than thou about people straying from the topic or giving one an answer he/she doesn't like. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

JW, maybe your issue is entirely with tone, not content? I have been posting about this-and-that being broken or skewed for five years now (well, maybe take off a year at the start when I was too scared to post *smile*) -- do you consider my rants as whining or constructive? I don't really want to turn this into personal comparisons, but maybe an example would better serve you in making this point instead of just saying, "It used to be different..." ?

Daz April 7 2008 12:11 PM EDT

I may not remember the posts as much as the tone was different. I find that it can get a bit nasty at the moment.
It seems that it's more "This is broken. Here is why I think why" Followed up with a nice, "No, you're stupid and so is your post"

Obviously I'm exaggerating.

TheHatchetman April 7 2008 12:58 PM EDT

I've learned not to become too attached to ideas, and I try to keep my personal feelings out of crap while I post, on account of i've experienced arguing with one/more of you guys... Usually (heh, if this ain't cocky :P), I'm right... With most places and/or arguments, both online, and in the real world, that is enough to win... Here, you need not only be right, you also need to have the support of greater than 70% of the community, the patience to wear down the few who oppose you, and at least 20-30 hypotheticals proving your point to someone else's one proving theirs. :P

Essentially, you guys are like mothers/wives/gfs... Even when someone somehow someway manages to be right, they will still be dead wrong in at least a handful of peoples' eyes :P Besides, ain't anyone ever tell ya about the relationship between internet fighting and the special olympics? ;)

NOTE: Don't think this means I've bowed out of all future debate/argument/protest, just that I'm trying to pick my battles better :P

QBOddBird April 7 2008 2:02 PM EDT

I am with JW on this one!!!

drudge April 7 2008 3:09 PM EDT

wait, what?

Templar April 7 2008 5:53 PM EDT

Gotta agree with JW. With the possible exception of the gruesome murder of CB1, i enjoy the big changes, even when they need some balancing. Constructive threads that attempt to understand and balance the game like This one and This one are always welcome, it's just a shame that players find themselves so unwilling to adapt to the new changes, and make a BETTER strategy FASTER than the player fighting them.

Ah strategies. I remember those.

QBsutekh137 April 7 2008 7:23 PM EDT

I'm gonna talk out both sides of my mouth at the same time (but have that as my disclaimer, so, no deceit involved).

Here's why some things get directly more personal here on CB2: Ranger truly has things sussed out.

I mean that. He is a tactical genius. He misses nothing, and he works (plays?) hard at finding real data and then trying to make change. That is EXACTLY what I try to do, except a lot of times I don't even _bother_ with the hard data (I do ghastly, lame things like say I just "know" the game because I'm...well...I'm known here.) I have respect beyond words for Ranger's knowledge. And it has been shared in Battle Royale. I hate clans, and I hate stagnation (something I have equated to BR in the past), but BR is about ruthless excellence. Anyone who has a problem with that at a foundational level is probably just jealous.

"Sutekh, you're nuts! How can you say that!" Well, because I have been jealous. I have been over it for a looooong time (and Ranger took a while to see that, maybe doesn't even see it yet). But I missed the slam dunk wins, the easy shot at the top. Ranger used some USD and I gave him flak for that. He doesn't so much any more, but it is still there. But let sleeping dogs lie. I have to come clean and say I have been jealous and I have been petty. Fortunately, that was all quite a while back.

Now for the other side of my mouth.

I have extreme and continuing issues with Ranger's tone. I don't know the way out -- don't see a light at the end of the tunnel yet. But I have seen change before. I have never written CMs so long as some to Ranger a few weeks ago (I had to split it up, must have exceeded some limit...16K, maybe?) I wish to talk with Ranger and have him on the CB team. "Catch more flies with honey"? Pretty sure Ranger only knows what that means in passing. But different strokes for different folks. I give as good as I get, so I can't fault very much of anything from anyone.

But overall, a line of...Paine? comes to mind. Something about always having the will and passion to disagree, but giving one's very own life to defend the right to STATE that disagreement. Is that what you miss, JW? The ability of oration? Of proper debate? I don't miss that. You know why? Because I still use it. Sometimes for me, sometimes for others, always in the service (I hope) of CB. The pull-back of "what happened to us!" or "we shouldn't talk like this!" is, quite frankly, off the mark. We should talk how ever the Hell we downright please. It's phonetic capitalism. Write what you want! The market will keep you honest! Regulation kills! BE the market.

If you are mad at Ranger, me, or anyone, then DEBATE him/her. Be clever. Use good, appropriate words! Have fun in the motley! Don't whine about the whining... That's like complaining about being hungry instead of cultivating food.

Pursue your motivation. Fight for it. Be civil. And when the other guy isn't civil, be even MORE civil. I am a firm believer that the nice guys DO win... It just takes time. I am also a pretty firm believer in the fact that we are all nice guys down deep. *smile* So, here does that leave me? No place. Just where I like it.

QBRanger April 7 2008 7:33 PM EDT


Well put.

My tone sometimes has been quite brusk. Sometimes in reaction to someones posting, others just because I had a bad day.

Let's hope to have constructive rather then destructive discussion.

QBJohnnywas April 7 2008 7:36 PM EDT

Sut, nice post. Anybody would think you like to write.....:P

I'm not really whining about the whining. As said further up, if I really don't like it I don't need to take part. It's my taking part that I'm getting annoyed with. It does get personal, perhaps not to the level some of the arguments have reached around here recent months, but still. I was brought up to know better than that.


Civilised debate: I'll drink to that one.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 7 2008 7:44 PM EDT

i try to look at what we all have in common here, which is a passion for a game that we all likely spend too much time with and care too much about. five years and still going is about the best run i have had with any game ever!

anyway, i do try now to look at the things we have in common and the fact that most of us have the same goals, at time we just disagree on what is needed to get us there. we tend to do so more civilly as of late at least i though.

as far as ranger goes, the same dogged determination and tenaciousness with combat and strategy spills over in to the forums and at times becomes overwhelming, it is based on a love for the game and thus cannot be all bad.

wow, should we join hands and sing kumbaya?

Windwalker April 7 2008 8:03 PM EDT

Progress Brothers ;) I for one read just about every post that comes out. I especially like to see what some have to say on game dynamic topics. I garner much knowledge from things that are said and don't like to see it denigrate to a personnel level. So JW, really, keep it coming. I don't think some of you realize the amount of tips you give out in a basic conversation.You have way too much to contribute.

QBsutekh137 April 7 2008 8:11 PM EDT

I love you guys, I really do. *smile*

Ranger, I will do better, too (there's plenty of room... *smile*)

JW, I shouldn't have even had the tiniest tone of saying you were whining -- you are posting and doing something, and you express yourself very well.

I just cracked a rather large Foster's, with one still in the fridge for the game. *smile*

I really do have great respect for so many people here, and I think this thread is turning out great. *smile*

Talion April 8 2008 8:54 AM EDT

Getting back to the original subject...

"Has CB always been like this? I seem to remember days when if there were as many major changes as we've just seen the forums would be full of threads about them; big jolly party threads, dancing around talking about the best way to roll with the changes; new ways of doing things. Strategies even. Ah strategies. I remember those."

I think the biggest change I have seen in all the time I have been part of CB is the lowering of the Untrain % and the disappearance of the free retraining periods. From that point on, anytime the "overpowered" tag has appeared in forums, the top players have taken more time adjusting instead of waiting for the next free retrain to counter.

This in turn has allowed Jon to take more time studying the effects of every change on the overall power balance which in turn lets him pinpoint what changes he wants to implement a lot faster. When everyone just retrained for free in order to adjust, the 'problems' would sort of end up hidden behind a whole bunch of counter strategies.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] April 8 2008 1:07 PM EDT

Having recently sampled the joys of SoL and a few other games I rate the forums here better than others I have seen.

The posts that I make are generally off the cuff efforts without much thought so I wouldn't take them too seriously :) When I do take my time composing something it invariably ends up deleted, having bogged down with too many ifs, buts and maybes.

MudBug The Redeemer April 9 2008 10:42 PM EDT

I miss the old days *Sniff*

BootyGod April 10 2008 12:50 AM EDT

Omg, ya'll got dramallama'd!

You have no idea how vindicated I am.

Ya'll may always remember me as the dramallama. But everywhere I turn there's drama, a whole lot of llamas, and a big zippo on posts from me.

Sure there are bugs. But just... Like... Make a post... Say what you think... And move on... The forums are permanently on fire from the flamethrowers you people have running 24/7. I swear some of you are ripping down ideas on the grounds that either A) Your strategy uses what the person is talking about. B) Your strategy beats what the person is talking about. C) You're trying to sell/buy what the person is talking about and any change could make the price worse for you (Honestly, supporter items? This MUST be the reason everyone is against it. Your wallets.) D) You plain are just in a bad mood or don't like who wrote it.

You all worry me some days. I luv ya, but damn... Chill... This coming from the original over-the-top 4 legged mammal.

Flamey April 10 2008 4:06 AM EDT

Those were the days, hey.

SimplyNic April 10 2008 4:09 AM EDT

Johnny, I'm behind you 100% and then some :D.
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