New DD (in Changelog)

AdminJonathan June 29 2008 6:35 AM EDT

Shocking Grasp. Extra damage vs AC. Check it out.

iBananco [Blue Army] June 29 2008 6:37 AM EDT

Extra damage as in AC increases damage, or extra as in less reduction?

AdminJonathan June 29 2008 6:38 AM EDT

read the spell description :P

iBananco [Blue Army] June 29 2008 6:51 AM EDT

I've been wanting a wall nerf for ages, but.... it seems kind of useless if AoIs are involved. It's just way too easy to move the wall to the back of the team.

winner winner June 29 2008 6:52 AM EDT

So the maximum boost against a wall is 104%?

lostling June 29 2008 6:53 AM EDT

jon... big question what does base AC means... that means that + doesnt matter?

lostling June 29 2008 6:54 AM EDT

SOC 85AC :) = pwn

AdminJonathan June 29 2008 6:58 AM EDT

> that means that + doesnt matter?


PoisoN June 29 2008 6:59 AM EDT

Any chance for a Familiar with that spell this change month?

lostling June 29 2008 7:04 AM EDT

thanks jon :) yes what poison said :)

PoisoN June 29 2008 7:18 AM EDT

Range 1, Targets 1.

I withdraw my request :-)

lostling June 29 2008 7:22 AM EDT

nonon its SUPER... try it out yourself before saying anything

Sickone June 29 2008 7:34 AM EDT

Now if only it would ignore Phantom Link too (like the MoD), it would be awewsome ;)

QBRanger June 29 2008 8:04 AM EDT

Will their be a new familiar that trains this spell?

lostling June 29 2008 9:22 AM EDT

jon... another big question... does SG take more damage from AMF against a minion with higher AC?(basically is it the effect thats multiplied or the final damage)

Daz June 29 2008 9:25 AM EDT

What is the damage like compared to MM?

Since we have a free retrain, I might try it out a little bit tomorrow.

[RX3]Cotillion June 29 2008 10:43 AM EDT

On Equip page: Shocking Grasp: 559,440 / 495,079

Post Battle : Direct Damage: 950,967

Am I missing something?

QBsutekh137 June 29 2008 10:45 AM EDT

Ent, was the target wearing AC? 1% increase per base AC is actually quite a lot, though not sure it would account for nearly a 100% increase... Adam, SC, CML, and MS on the target, perhaps?

[RX3]Cotillion June 29 2008 10:49 AM EDT

Thing is it's static. It doesn't change no matter who I fight. Unless it's my own armor amplifying it? It's just the targets AC right?

AdminJonathan June 29 2008 10:49 AM EDT

no, SG doesn't move its own level around like that, just increases dmg

[RX3]Cotillion June 29 2008 10:51 AM EDT

So it's just a glitch in the post battle? I really don't have an effective 950k SG?

Cube June 29 2008 10:53 AM EDT

Could you be confusing effect with level?

[RX3]Cotillion June 29 2008 10:54 AM EDT

That's what it is. It's my SG's level.

Cube June 29 2008 11:00 AM EDT

The equip page shows effect. Check the train page for your level.

QBsutekh137 June 29 2008 11:02 AM EDT

For anyone who wants to see who has Shocking Grasp trained (until it gets on the attributes page):


Will be interesting to see who tries it out this week, I might even rejigger my whole team since switching to MM doesn't really gain me much (if anything...). Dang you, Dixie Cousins! *smile*

AdminJonathan June 29 2008 11:23 AM EDT

i'm in the top 10? woot! :)

winner winner June 29 2008 11:25 AM EDT

I'm in the Top 15!

lostling June 29 2008 12:05 PM EDT

so basically this spell is the ultimate wall killer... extra DAMAGE vs walls with NO extra AMF backlash and a boosted damage of more then COC vs a single minion (ability to break TOE) + NSC and this skill is just sick...

AdminJonathan June 29 2008 12:22 PM EDT

concentrated CoC will do more vs a single minion unless base AC is fairly high

QBsutekh137 June 29 2008 12:26 PM EDT

Sure, except it isn't a Skill, and you have to make it to melee first. *smile*

A CoC/SG combo would be something to behold, but there aren't many folks who can have two large offenses like that and STILL make it to melee. I know I can't. The need for Evasion and HP is too strong, and if a familiar is devoted to one of those offenses, there goes some damage reduction (no ToE). So, it's kind of a (bitter)sweet choice to make. SG as a secondary offense might be pretty nice, but I think anyone devoting their team to damage reduction (melee) and agnostic target destruction would opt for CoC.

But as always, we'll see how the masters use this, especially NUBs and NCBs on the way up!

QBsutekh137 June 29 2008 12:28 PM EDT

CoC will do more in most concentrated cases? Ack. With people just moving their walls to the back, then I am not sure who would opt for SG. Heck, I would train Decay far before that, as it already targets the front minion, already ignores AC, has the same range, and the AMF backlash can never kill.

Still, I am sure the choice will get used eventually, and it will be fun to see how. *smile*

King June 29 2008 12:37 PM EDT

i was hoping for a new ranged spell but i'm sure the multi-minion teams will love using this in the future.

Wasp June 29 2008 12:52 PM EDT

Range 1. Pointless...

three4thsforsaken June 29 2008 3:11 PM EDT

thanks Jon! I really wonder how this will effect the game... a front to back DD!

QBOddBird June 29 2008 3:13 PM EDT

Wasp - au contraire, this is the vorpal blade DD style. I would say it will be very useful.

It would be even cooler if it was weaker, but did extra damage versus all forms of damage reduction ;) the terrible choice against unprotected teams, and the solution to the game's inevitable tilt toward so much damage reduction.

Cube June 29 2008 3:14 PM EDT

Far from pointless, it goes straight through ToE teams. It effectively breaks the cap easily.

Great for damage reduction teams, and great versus damage reduction teams.

Cube June 29 2008 3:17 PM EDT

And sutekh, if you think it works well with CoC, you should see it with decay.

TheHatchetman June 29 2008 3:23 PM EDT

> So the maximum boost against a wall is 104%?

106% (MS buff)

/Jon imitation

Little Anthony June 29 2008 3:51 PM EDT

Fat Mage touches Cloudscape [4165857]


QBsutekh137 June 29 2008 3:53 PM EDT

How big is that SG?

Little Anthony June 29 2008 3:55 PM EDT

SG: 10,763,607


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 29 2008 3:55 PM EDT

Fat Mage touches King Jamool's familiar [5088950]

This is exactly why a free retrain is a problem.

At least I can scrap my setup without too much pain I guess...

Cube June 29 2008 4:14 PM EDT

So... A HoC decreases damage?

AdminJonathan June 29 2008 4:24 PM EDT

> This is exactly why a free retrain is a problem.

I don't follow -- do you mean because it allows the new spells and items to be used immediately? Sorry, that's a "feature."

Tyriel [123456789] June 29 2008 4:27 PM EDT

Perhaps changing it from "xxx touched yyy" to "xxx electrocuted yyy" will make it sound a little more PG when people talk about minions 'touching' each other. xD

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 29 2008 4:37 PM EDT

because there is no thinking involved...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 29 2008 4:38 PM EDT

I'm just being a sissy... it's just painful to watch things get turned upside down for no penalty

QBJohnnywas June 29 2008 5:00 PM EDT

Whew. Interesting. Just lost a couple of people on my fightlist . Then saw this!

QBsutekh137 June 29 2008 5:28 PM EDT

nov, you mean that without the free retrain FTW's SG would be so drastically reduced to 10,548,335 instead (2% less). Yeah, that would probably make a great deal of difference! *smile*

Anyone who already had a DD-melee build would have tried SG at one point or another. It ain't rocket science, you know exactly what you are getting -- a single shot CoC equivalent (roughly), for equal or less AMF backlash... And by seeing who takes multiple rounds with CoC vs multiple rounds one at a time with SG, that's a no-brainer either way.

Like in the retrain poll, I'm not sure I understand who has to "think" so much... I can see pretty much every scenario in my head (we're talking reflex, not thinking, and I am far from the oldest timer or strategist here) without trying, except for my own FB killing my own team -- hard to see beyond that. As it turns out, switching the FB to MM did pretty much what I thought it would -- nothing. I'll need to use this week to try to figure out whether a full revamp and lots of $$$ to buy more supporter items is worth it. And once again running the mental numbers -- I'm betting it won't be. *smile*

AdminJonathan June 29 2008 5:35 PM EDT

> you mean that without the free retrain FTW's SG would be so drastically reduced to 10,548,335 instead (2% less). Yeah, that would probably make a great deal of difference! *smile*

you're quite right, but psychologically it's hard to retrain when there is a penalty. I think this an example of "loss aversion" even though usually that is applied to things like the stock market.

I do think it's good for the game for drop that barrier once in a while.

QBRanger June 29 2008 5:36 PM EDT


Let us say you retrain and it is not as effective. Then you have to unlearn, relearn again, for a total of 4% penalty.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] June 29 2008 6:40 PM EDT

total of 3.96% penalty Ranger, 2% of 98% is not 2%

QBsutekh137 June 29 2008 7:00 PM EDT

...and still wouldn't have dropped FTW's massive level below 10 million. I was casing this one out, and I'll admit, putting nov (whom I love) on the spot.

Not really fair, considering he already admitted being a sissy. :P

(and I totally agree with you, Jonathan... Free retrains are good for the "kick in the pants" factor. I just think LA would have done it at some point regardless to see how massive that DD blow could become.)

TheHatchetman June 29 2008 7:07 PM EDT

"you're quite right, but psychologically it's hard to retrain when there is a penalty."

Even harder when ya know that if you can hold out long enough, the penalty will go on vacation, no? :P

AdminJonathan June 29 2008 7:37 PM EDT

> if you can hold out long enough, the penalty will go on vacation, no?

here's another piece of psychological trivia for you -- there have been a bunch of studies showing that it's a lot harder to wait for something, if you don't know how long you'll have to wait :)

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 [SHIELD] June 29 2008 7:38 PM EDT

Jon has cracked the mystery, Duke Nukem Forever is a government experiment in psychology.

AdminJonathan June 29 2008 7:47 PM EDT


QBRanger June 29 2008 8:16 PM EDT

I'd Love to touches Cloudscape [2539756]

with over 10.5M levels of AMF.

.36 amf vs Little Anthony's SG.

Got to just love those NSC.

lostling June 29 2008 8:31 PM EDT

this spell smells over powered to me lol... i mean like... seriously? 100% increase in damage? not to mention like crazily boostable by AOL + BOF(if you survive ranged of course but yea)

three4thsforsaken June 29 2008 10:21 PM EDT

give it some time... it'll help shake up the defensive strats that are so dominant atm.

QBsutekh137 June 29 2008 10:39 PM EDT

Lost, you talk about making it to melee like it is some sort of piece of cake. You do realize FTW has the biggest MPR in the game, yes? He can afford to have the damage reduction AND the big DD?

Why would you be against SG but not against CoC, when Jonathan himself has said it takes a big AC target just to bring SG in to line with CoC on a single target? In other words, if you are against SG< you should be against MM.

Ahm mah godZ teh overp0werd cahke!

QBsutekh137 June 29 2008 10:40 PM EDT

And Ranger, Hallelujah! You finally understand how I felt about the MgS now! PRAISE HIM!

Wizard'sFirstRule June 29 2008 10:42 PM EDT

does shock grasp affect steel skin at all?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] June 29 2008 10:53 PM EDT

Shocking Grasp is overpowered and thats all I'm gonna say on the matter... FTW does over 3.6 mil a hit easy on any of my minions... Toe does not reduce it enough... it just does way too much damage... even with him using it at 10 mil levels... at least coc could be reduced and kept from being the end all kill all! 6 rounds to run through over 10 mil hp is way overpowered in my opinion...

QBsutekh137 June 29 2008 11:06 PM EDT

Drac, kill him first. Why can't you? I can't even kill a single minion on your team... Surely that means you have the opportunity to off him before him you?

I'm with LA on this one...well played! If a team can survive the nine or ten rounds to last through ranged and then kill four slots, well, that's pretty awesome.

OR, maybe the ability to survive is STILL too strong, and FTW is just better at it than most because of massive MPR? Heck, if this is a call for even more reduction to damage reduction, count me in!

QBRanger June 29 2008 11:08 PM EDT


I have always felt that way about NSC. I always thought they were as powerful, if not more on very high DD spells then any MgS is.

QBRanger June 29 2008 11:10 PM EDT

But for once,

I have not made fifty posts on the matter.

The NSC is the most powerful non weapon in the game. Always believed it, always will until they are changed. With this new spell, that concentrates damage, with little to counter, it is more uber then before.

QBsutekh137 June 29 2008 11:10 PM EDT

Sorry for the double post... Draco, what is your offense? Am I seeing this right, a single MH (sorry, still figuring out the new interface, takes me a while to see what people are running)? Do you really wonder why you get beat when your only offense is an non-augmented melee tank swinging a hammer?

Oh, when the damage reduction fails... 'Tis a sad sight indeed!

QBsutekh137 June 29 2008 11:12 PM EDT

NSC is most powerful... Laugh a minute, dude, laugh a minute. That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.

And yeah, I will make fifty posts about it, nothing wrong with that!

QBRanger June 29 2008 11:14 PM EDT


As a high NW melee tank, without my familiar, LA chews me up and spits me out in bit sized pieces.

Using my tattoo, you know the highest level TOE almost 8M, he still cruises through me like I am not even there.

Melee tanks have no chance vs this spell, especially if backed by a set of NSC's.

Since armor is no defense for it.

QBRanger June 29 2008 11:16 PM EDT

Ask any tank, almost all will say they are.

QBsutekh137 June 29 2008 11:18 PM EDT


So you adapted and now you beat him. Sounds like exactly what you told me to do any time I lamented a change in the game, yes?

And he's bigger than you, MPR wise, anyway.

Well done, man!

Now, what's the problem again?

QBsutekh137 June 29 2008 11:20 PM EDT

I would expect any tank to say so.

However, Jonathan changed the damage reduction model this last month, including the MgS. So, I guess the only voice that actually mattered is the one that spoke.

I'm sure he did that just to shut me up, too. I can be SUCH an infernal bore!

Usul [CHOAM] June 29 2008 11:22 PM EDT

"even with him using it at 10 mil levels"

I found this the most hilarious part of his argument :) And yes, it's still funny. Why? Because he thinks someone spending 10mil level worth of xp into 1 attribute that fires at round 5 and dealing 3.6mil damage is overpowered.

So just a note, when I got hit by CC's UC it's dealing 800k per hit x5 per round on my non-evasion minion. That's 4mil damage per round and you kinda wonder why a 10mil worth of XP actually converges to roughly the same amount of damage. Very nice balancing work if you ask me.

QBRanger June 29 2008 11:22 PM EDT

I beat him for 1 reason.

My tattoo. We are close in MPR and with all the extra NW I have, this new spell just chews right through my minions. Even with my tattoo as an 8M TOE.

So when Draco states it is a bit too powerful, I will listen and not easily dismiss it.

But I will hold my final opinions on it till we all had a chance to play around and see how it really will work at all levels. Not just someone at 10M levels of it.

Little Anthony June 29 2008 11:24 PM EDT

it's more like 12 :P

QBRanger June 29 2008 11:25 PM EDT

It would also help to know Draco's AMF level and its effect on that spell.

I have about 4.8M levels of AMF and it gives a .13 vs LA's spell.

Does anyone have experience with more AMF?

QBsutekh137 June 29 2008 11:27 PM EDT

I actually don't care how many reasons team A beats team B. A win is a win.

But I agree, I will hold off on more posts until we see how this affects other parts of the score/PR ladder. The only reason I called Draco out is because a MASSIVE concentration of his team is defense. When someone invests that much MPR in offense (that thing is bigger than my massively augmented Top Ten tattoo!), I am actually happy to see if have such an impact.

Little Anthony June 29 2008 11:31 PM EDT

this new spell is not exactly easy to use, it is very very weak against range, other magic spell, i have tried it with lots of HP and about roughly same 6mil CoC lvl i had before, it stinks, really stinks.

Wizard'sFirstRule June 29 2008 11:39 PM EDT

can we have a MgS-esque drawback of removing the AC on your own minion similar to how MGS eats your spell, EO and ED?

Tyriel [123456789] June 29 2008 11:40 PM EDT

I find it shocking (haha! I made a pun! :D) that an almost entirely defensive strategy can't win against a super-concentrated spell that is entirely ANTI-DEFENSE.

What is the world coming to. I can't believe that Jon would ACTUALLY create a counter to AoI'd front damage minions, walls with 500 AC, and mage walls stuck in the back.

Sure, it may need a bit of tweaking, but so do you, all of you, complaining that SG is overpowered.

Switch to a more offensive strategy. Dump your ToE, equip a MsK or ELB. SoD, even. Lose somebody off of your fightlist? Oh, no. I can't believe that the game is actually rock-paper-scissors. That takes all of the strategy out.

In case you can't tell, a large part of this post is sarcasm. :)

Cube June 29 2008 11:46 PM EDT

Actually the best part is once you get to 500 AC your wall is breaking even on the damage.

+104% to his spell
So x2.04
But at 500 AC that's almost +300, which halves the damage.

Cube June 29 2008 11:47 PM EDT

Oh my math messed up there bad, you get +300 at 420 AC or so, but my point remains the same. (420 - 104 Base * 1.2 is about 300).

QBsutekh137 June 29 2008 11:48 PM EDT

Well, 500 base AC would be pretty hard to hit, yes? In fact, we can calculate the biggest base set of AC...

Wizard'sFirstRule June 29 2008 11:49 PM EDT

base AC, not +s

Cube June 29 2008 11:50 PM EDT

LA hit it himself.

QBsutekh137 June 29 2008 11:51 PM EDT

Wait, I see what you are saying, you already had the max increase in there...gah, sorry, time for me to go to bed!

Usul [CHOAM] June 30 2008 12:01 AM EDT

Actually I have a question, does -5 of HOC actually reduce SG's damage? :) That will be interesting.

Also I wonder why the Character Attribute page still doesn't show SG's stats.

Sacredpeanut June 30 2008 12:08 AM EDT

Will there be a new familiar that trains HP/Shocking Grasp?

Also does Steel Skin increase the damage from Shocking Grasp or is none of the additional AC from Steel Skin counted as "base" AC?

lostling June 30 2008 12:08 AM EDT

it is overpowered... im pretty sure of that... if draco had base wall equipment and no AMF LA would be doing a total of approximately 14mill damage per hit... wouldnt that pwn any sort of wall? im pretty sure 10mill lvls isnt even 1/4 of his total lvls.... surviving to melee... it is not THAT hard to survive to melee when you can probably put like 75% of your exp into defensive stuffs

three4thsforsaken June 30 2008 12:22 AM EDT

I don't think we can measure abuse like that... sure if he had a base set of wall equips with no plus, he would totally be destroyed, but that wouldn't make much sense would it?

TheHatchetman June 30 2008 1:02 AM EDT


"not my junction dude cast Antimagic Field on Angel of Death (0.12)

Angel of Death takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (26222)!
Angel of Death touches so not GA [1090554]"

0 base AC on my enchanter...

ResistanZ2 [The Knighthood] June 30 2008 1:04 AM EDT

How is SG overpowered? Apparently you're forgetting that you have to wait until melee before SG even starts. And it's concentrated, so of course the damage is going to be high.

TheHatchetman June 30 2008 1:05 AM EDT

nvm, I'm an idiot and didn't notice the ToE in play... but seriously... Wow...

QBJohnnywas June 30 2008 3:22 AM EDT

I love how important MPR apparently is; but not when being the biggest allows people to win.

Now apparently tank teams who survive to melee are supposed to win as a reward for that survival.

Meanwhile in other news: a vorpal DD. Love it.

QBRanger June 30 2008 8:29 AM EDT

"Now apparently tank teams who survive to melee are supposed to win as a reward for that survival. "

Perhaps we can have a chance to win. With the new spell, 1 round=1 minion dead.

QBRanger June 30 2008 8:32 AM EDT

But I think the most tell feature will be if there is a new familiar.

If quite a few people start to use it=overpowered.

QBJohnnywas June 30 2008 8:37 AM EDT

Lol, it's so overpowered when trained on the largest MPR team of the game that he loses against you in 3 rounds.

That's 1.33 minions per round.

If the deaths per round is anything to go by your particular set up is more overpowered than SG.

QBRanger June 30 2008 8:51 AM EDT


Have you checked my battle reports.

The 3 rounder was using 3 minions with AMF, a IF and my tank.

However, our MPR's are quite similar and I do have the largest tattoo in the game. And it seems I can do no better then draw with him 25% of the time.

Yes, the new spell is death for melee tanks, since once we get started attacking, the new spell takes out 1 minion a round on average.

And best of all, there is no defense except for more AMF, lotsa AMF, loads of AMF.

QBRanger June 30 2008 8:51 AM EDT

I'd Love to takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (341135)!
I'd Love to touches Microchips [2692336]

vs a 6 M AMF.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 30 2008 8:55 AM EDT

"And best of all, there is no defense except for more AMF, lotsa AMF, loads of AMF"

Don't wear high base AC armour. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 30 2008 8:55 AM EDT

"vs a 6 M AMF."

Well that is 6M versus 12M. Did you expect anything different?

QBRanger June 30 2008 9:00 AM EDT

True, do not wear high AC armor.

And let the tanks destroy me before my MELEE tank can get to them.

It is nice to have a free retrain, however, what about tanks? We are stuck with our weapons forever it seems.
I would love to counter stuff with the MoD or even the VB.

/me sighs.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 30 2008 9:07 AM EDT

"And let the tanks destroy me before my MELEE tank can get to them."


We're talking about Mages (SG ones specifically) destroying here right?

Not Tanks.

So, uh, you want to have the best versus Tanks *and* Mages. I feel cake and eat it welling up agian. ;)

QBRanger June 30 2008 9:11 AM EDT


Just wait till there is a familiar with this new spell.

I think you will then see how utterly nice it is.

QBJohnnywas June 30 2008 9:23 AM EDT

I'm running it on my team; because I can (damn that free retrain), and also because my team is already set up to last to melee.

Results are still inconclusive. With CoC I had more people on my fightlist. I've lost a couple of those, thanks to only being able to take on one minion at a time. Spread damage let me chip away at the whole team.

But a smaller team who switched to SG and could beat me with it when I was training CoC can't beat me now I've got SG.

But it's not suddenly a complete game over for other teams because of it.

*Number 5 SG*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] June 30 2008 9:25 AM EDT

"O GL,

Just wait till there is a familiar with this new spell.

I think you will then see how utterly nice it is."

Nah, it will probably just lead to more "ZOMG AoF is overpowered" posts. ;)

QBRanger June 30 2008 9:26 AM EDT


I agree.

Let us see how the rest of the week progresses.

And hopefully there will be a familiar with the new spell.

And a weapon artist since there have been tons of changes to both magic and physical.

Mages got a nice boost with being able to change their DD spell, let us hope tanks get the same.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 30 2008 1:41 PM EDT

...still waiting for a nerf.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 30 2008 2:21 PM EDT

Finger of death at least had a chance to cast...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 30 2008 2:31 PM EDT

SG should require a chance to hit system

QBOddBird June 30 2008 2:35 PM EDT

"It would be even cooler if it was weaker, but did extra damage versus all forms of damage reduction ;) the terrible choice against unprotected teams, and the solution to the game's inevitable tilt toward so much damage reduction."

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] June 30 2008 2:38 PM EDT

It'd become less loved than decay, and unsuitable for a main damage dealer...

Honestly Decay should have been modded instead of this spell being introduced.

winner winner June 30 2008 3:34 PM EDT

Did AC get nerfed 2 times this changemonth?

QBOddBird June 30 2008 3:36 PM EDT

Nah, it'd be like the VB.

Too weak against some opponents, crazy strong against others.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] June 30 2008 6:12 PM EDT

Teh Enchantments cast Antimagic Field on I'd Love to (0.23)

5,673,000 Amf levels and he still does

on the high side:High AC minion
I'd Love to takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (429635)!
I'd Love to touches Teh Man [4164190]

on the low side: Low ac minion
I'd Love to takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (429635)!
I'd Love to touches Teh Enchantments [1605650]

Little Anthony June 30 2008 6:15 PM EDT

i do the same with 8 Mil CoC if not more. But of course that happens if it is only 1 minion.

QBRanger June 30 2008 6:51 PM EDT

Yes, with CoC it disperses with 4 minions, letting them live longer.

Imagine CoC doing all its damage to 1 minion at a time, that is what this new spell is. And AC does not help.

It is far too powerful, taking 1 minion a round out.

Little Anthony June 30 2008 6:54 PM EDT

well, a 2mil Mpr msk archer can kill this 6mil - 7mil HP mage, in range, so it is NOT exactly easy to try. (given i have PL helps)

Something is cool doesn't mean it can be done easily.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] June 30 2008 7:06 PM EDT

that MSK is also the work of USD ^_^

iBananco [Blue Army] June 30 2008 7:07 PM EDT

To be fair, so is his char.

QBsutekh137 June 30 2008 7:54 PM EDT

Ranger, you mean like an MsK taking out my familiar in one round? You're right! That IS unfair. Lega does that all the time! Confound it!


MM does the same thing to FB that SG does to CoC, and no one complains about MM. Why? Because ranged DD is deader than A-line flairs with pockets in the knees. Deader than saddle shoes. Deader than fried chicken.

And now that melee DD is viable, 5-6 rounds later, everyone's undies are in a bunch.

Color me not getting it...

Everyone, in a way, asked for this. Everyone hunched behind their damage reduction, mum being the word. I prayed and pleaded, I asked, "Is this what everyone wants?" Silence was the non-commital affirmative. "But I need my walls, Sutekh! I need my synergistic, step-wise damage reduction layers! Stop being such a dinosaur and adapt to it!"

Jonathan came up with his own angle. Bring the fight to melee. Longer battles. So the offense is now in melee, and it's pretty damn massive (as it should be). CoC already was a juggernaut, and I don't remember Oxcha's previous owner shouting "UNFAIR!" when CoC overwhelmed his ToE/PL/TSA stronghold...

But now folks are complaining. People, you can't depend on an entrenched-but-retarded gameplay dynamic that is duller than Bush and more brain-dead than roadkill and then lament at the turmoil when the apple cart gets turned over.

It's exactly what everyone asked for.

And now not what many people want.

Soxjr June 30 2008 8:03 PM EDT

I never used USD... It has taken me almost a year to pay for it though. :) At the expense of not upgrading anything else to mind you.

QBsutekh137 June 30 2008 8:07 PM EDT

Sox is juuust about ready to whack me in ranged...I love it! Well, not really, but you know.. *smile*

lostling June 30 2008 8:48 PM EDT

put it this way... 1 hit KOs with a spell even WITH reduction just doesnt make sense... not to mention it is not THAT much of a spell involved i mean like 12mill lvls would be less then half his total exp no?

QBRanger June 30 2008 8:49 PM EDT


You and everyone in CB knows full well how I felt about seekers and the MsB.

I used it since it was.... there.

Well without walls and high AC, guess what, battles will be shorter as people go full offense and try to kill ASAP. Watch it happen.

We went from a CB where one can have defense to a CB where "biggest wins".

I think this stinks.

I did like the damage reduction nerfage, including the MgS. And the AC nerf.

But this new spell makes strategy and minion placement useless.

We have a DD spell that attacks from the front, from behind and in between. While tanks, except the SoD, have to attack 1 at a time.

Now it is almost impossible to hunker down and try to live to melee and hope to win there, as the new spell makes AC work against you.

I think this new spell stinks, the entire concept stinks, worse than most anything CB2 has seen.

QBRanger June 30 2008 8:50 PM EDT

Biggest wins as in LA has the biggest spell... game over once he gets a tattoo.

Imagine him with a TOE. He will certainly live long enough to cast his always working, always successful FoD.

Is that what you really really want?

ResistanZ2 [The Knighthood] June 30 2008 8:57 PM EDT

Novice survives a hit from him. Besides, he's the highest MPR in the game.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] June 30 2008 8:58 PM EDT

And Ranger is the second highest... and I'm fourth... whats the difference

QBRanger June 30 2008 9:03 PM EDT

With the 2nd highest MPR and the largest tattoo vs someone 50k more MPR with no tattoo, one would think things would be a cake walk for me with my NW advantage. Especially with over 9M levels of AMF vs his 12 in the new spell. Darn NSC's.

Somehow this spell completely neutralizes my tattoo and NW. I do know this is making some in CB very happy. And likely rightly so.

But do we want a "he who has the largest minion wins"?

If so, that's fine with me.

But if your going to give LA and other mages the chance to completely change their strategies, at least give tanks the same chance.

I am stuck with this 250k NW paperweight now with the new spell and changes this month. I certainly wish I could try to adapt as all the mages out there are.

00 June 30 2008 9:06 PM EDT

There needs to be a stabilization in CB or things are going to get ugly(er).

ResistanZ2 [The Knighthood] June 30 2008 9:06 PM EDT

Yeah, the more I read, the more in favor I am of a blacksmith weapon resmithing.

QBRanger June 30 2008 9:07 PM EDT

And it has to be free or relatively cheap for tanks to have a chance to adapt to the new spell/items.

ResistanZ2 [The Knighthood] June 30 2008 9:07 PM EDT

Although, I have a feeling everyone would just resmith their weapons into a SoD and that spells bad news for mages..

QBRanger June 30 2008 9:10 PM EDT


It seems the only way now to compete with the insta kill spell is to try to take em out in missile.

I suspect battles will be shorter as more people forgo defense and concentrate on offense, in missile rounds.

However, I have no missile weapon to speak of, so I am sort of hosed.

QBRanger June 30 2008 9:11 PM EDT

And I will say it again.

The NSC is too powerful. it compounds the problem with this spell in particular.

King June 30 2008 9:13 PM EDT

i think SG should be changed to a skill like UC since it's technically a touch attack, just my two cents.

three4thsforsaken June 30 2008 9:15 PM EDT

And should only touch AC be applied? That doesn't make any sense D:

King June 30 2008 9:23 PM EDT

"And should only touch AC be applied?"

that made no sense to me anyway i read it. I meant it should be like UC/Evasion where it's damage is dependant on the level but it has a secondary effect giving it pth so it has a chance of missing.

three4thsforsaken June 30 2008 9:31 PM EDT

I just meant it shouldn't be change solely because its name "technically" implies a touch attack. It was a touch attack in DnD, but ideas like that can't be applied to the DD nature of CB.

Little Anthony June 30 2008 9:41 PM EDT

"Well without walls and high AC, guess what, battles will be shorter as people go full offense and try to kill ASAP. Watch it happen. "

why would you ditch the wall. i love my tiny wall with tiny hp.

PotatoHead June 30 2008 9:43 PM EDT

with all the complaining going on about SG, if it does get changed, I'd hope it's before the end of free retrain. I know this is off topic, but I just wanted to get it out there and not make a whole thread to say that simple thing.

ResistanZ2 [The Knighthood] June 30 2008 9:48 PM EDT

Why are NSCs a problem? They weren't a problem before SG. So I guess that means SG is the problem. Don't nerf something all mages use. :\

QBsutekh137 June 30 2008 9:50 PM EDT

Actually, largest minion wins is not too far off from reality... This is a game, remember? If someone is bigger, they will probably win.

I want synergies to matter. I want a four-minion team to have clever ways of making sure it has an "in". I just don't want EVERY four-minion team to be TSA/PL/blah/blah/blah. Is that wrong?

I pointed out that SG/CoC is like MM/FB. If you hate SG, why don't you hate MM? I would like real, empirical answers to that. Anything else is hand-waving.

lostling June 30 2008 9:56 PM EDT

i have pointed out... MM is 0.44 effective... compared to SG which is 0.58... this is a 20-30% damage increase... but its fine because SG starts in melee... it is the 1% to every base AC thats the problem here... currently with that you can super boost SG to 0.58 * 2.06 = 1.1948
this is LARGER then an equal COC concentrated on a single minion which is 1.0~ effective... too lazy to pull the decimal points from my excel sheet but yea you get the idea

QBRanger June 30 2008 9:58 PM EDT

NSC's were and are a problem for a long long time. They just have not been beaten to death like the MgS is.

And I have a problem with having to defend magic from front and back. It makes minion order almost meaningless. Especially vs a spell that does all the damage of CoC in 1 blast vs 1 minion.

That is too much damage for almost any minion to deal with. Put a pair of NSC on and pretty much the only real counter to that spells is hugely nerfed.

I have and cast a 9.8M AMF vs LA's 10.5-12M SG. I get .38 vs him and he does over 2M a hit vs my minions. While taking about 800k backlash. While some may say that is ok, I feel that is pathetic.

And as I stated before, this is great for mages, however, I would like a chance to tweak/change my strategy to compete with this new spell. However, stuck with my MH, which was great up till now, I cannot.

Multi minion teams should be able to complete with those that have 1huge minion +/- others. First ENC made 4 minion, epual xp, tank teams very difficult if not impossible and now this.

King June 30 2008 9:59 PM EDT

I was just saying it says "(attacking minion) touches (defending minion)" so you would think dodging would be a possibility. Instead of being a DD i suggested it could be made a skill which could allow it to be multi-layered like UC Hidden damage dependant on level, Effect giving it PTH and possibly added DX. This could also make it so the minion needs to train dx separately by not giving dx so the minion isn't just a 2 stat train relying on an absurdly high level with NsCs or an AoF.

I currently have no problems with SG the way it is i was just making a random suggestion.

lostling June 30 2008 10:01 PM EDT

backlash was never the main component of AMF... it is a combo of both defensive and offensive... but in this case... it sorta just dies... as too much of the spell gets through... which results in 1 hit KO

QBRanger June 30 2008 10:03 PM EDT


I agree backlash means nothing to me. But it is a way of seeing how good your AMF is. As you stated, too much of the spell gets through an AMF nearly equal to the casting level of the spell.

QBRanger June 30 2008 10:09 PM EDT

And if this new spell is not quite powerful, why do we not yet have a SG familiar.

I would be very interested in how many people make one and use it.

QBRanger June 30 2008 10:26 PM EDT


If LA had a 3M TOE or so, does anyone think he could be beaten?

At 1/4th the NW of myself and Mikel, who are tanks at 90+% of his MPR.

Tyriel [123456789] June 30 2008 10:32 PM EDT

"And I have a problem with having to defend magic from front and back. It makes minion order almost meaningless."

I'm sorry, but I just can't help but laugh at this.

You don't HAVE to defend against front AND back DD. You don't HAVE to be able to beat every person in the game. You don't HAVE to have high AC + ToE + PL + TSA + AMF + every other kind of damage reduction possible. You don't HAVE to do anything.

Sure, minion order might be meaningless to you, because you're strategy is exactly the kind of strategy that SG is made to combat, so no matter what you do, nothing is going to change whether or not you can beat it. But to normal people, who can't beat everybody (and don't whine that they can't), they must choose carefully how to order their minions; almost as important as what spells to train and how much to invest in each one. Do I put my minion up front with an AoI, leaving me vulnerable to SG? Do I stick it in back, protecting it from physical and SG, but leaving it open to MM? Do I have a balance between the two, using the fact that SG doesn't start until melee, and that MM can be weakened a lot by EH + MgS to last as long as possible against both?

Part of a strategy game is strategy; you have to choose who you want to fight based on risk and reward (will changing my strategy give me higher rewards than the one I'm currently using? Will the 2%-ish penalty for non-free retraining net me enough of a boost in rewards to be worth it?).

I feel like Sut right now. It's this sort of odd, futile feeling. Like nothing I say will ever get through to the people I'm trying to say it to.

Oh well.

Daz June 30 2008 10:34 PM EDT

"I feel like Sut right now. It's this sort of odd, futile feeling. Like nothing I say will ever get through to the people I'm trying to say it to. "

Welcome to CB :)

Tyriel [123456789] June 30 2008 10:35 PM EDT

Granted, SG may be a *bit* too powerful. But, still, it doesn't fire untl melee, and can only target one minion at a time. That's a good 5-8 (or whatever) rounds minimum to kill of the damage dealer. If you can't manage that, perhaps your strategy is just a bit too defensive.

I'm sure, if you really wanted to, you could change you strategy in such a way that nobody can beat you again, Ranger. Whether or not you're willing to make sacrifices to do so is up to you, not how powerful some items or spells may or may not be. *smile*

Aw, man, I'm like a mini-Sut. :P

lostling June 30 2008 10:37 PM EDT

somehow nobody reads my post...

QBRanger June 30 2008 10:45 PM EDT


I certainly can, if I want to just chuck my MH and go mage, or RBF.

Certainly I can do it. But melee tanks in general now have little chance to live vs people. Of course, they can choose to fight FB or CoC, SG or MM. But what about the hope of beating a host of people. I guess they should give that up.

I know full well that feeling of banging ones head against the wall.

ResistanZ2 [The Knighthood] June 30 2008 10:45 PM EDT

Lostling, you try too hard.

Wizard'sFirstRule June 30 2008 11:14 PM EDT

make a new item that amps AMF (and EC as well because you can counter it with GS and haste, or elven gear/STR boost items), simple and done. right?

QBsutekh137 June 30 2008 11:48 PM EDT

Go ahead and make SG backlash as hard as it hits? Would that be good enough (just to start a dialogue)?

lostling June 30 2008 11:50 PM EDT

yes that would go a long way towards addressing the problem... or as i said... reduce the effectiveness against AC by half 1 AC 0.5% increase....

Pheather June 30 2008 11:52 PM EDT

Or maybe just make HoC ineffective with it? After all, you're touching people...

j'bob June 30 2008 11:59 PM EDT

"Aw, man, I'm like a mini-Sut. :P"
Does that make Ty a MINI-MULTI!
BURN THE MULTI...ok, he's mini so just char him.

Anywho, making the HoC ineffective is an interesting idea. Does junction with a JFK make it attack in the last round of ranged? I don't know. Because I can agree with the whole, "you're touching people" thing but then I think it would have to be spread across the board. Or am I reaching..
hmmm, this is why I don't chime in often in these debates.

Pheather July 1 2008 12:02 AM EDT

HoC with melee tanks doesn't do anything.

QBsutekh137 July 1 2008 12:13 AM EDT

Really? I thought it did...

Pheather July 1 2008 12:20 AM EDT

Really? I didn't know that. More the reason to make Shocking touch HoC-less then.

ResistanZ2 [The Knighthood] July 1 2008 12:35 AM EDT

This wouldn't solve anything. Honestly, even if SG wasn't HoCable, people would still complain about the damage. So enough wussyfooting around the problem. A lot of people are going to be unhappy unless it gets weakened, so if anything, a damage nerf is in order. It's pointless to talk about reducing it for one more round, because that doesn't get to the root of the problem.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 1 2008 12:58 AM EDT

HoC does nothing for melee tanks

Little Anthony July 1 2008 1:49 AM EDT

against Dudemus 1 minion only.
8mil Base CoC: battle ended in 1 hit.

I'd Love to takes damage from his own Cone of Cold (1117459)!
I'd Love to's Cone of Cold hit the pacifist [4243216]

8mil base SG: battle ended in 2 hit,

I'd Love to takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (638548)!
I'd Love to touches the pacifist [2410354]
I'd Love to takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (638548)!
I'd Love to touches the pacifist [2672641]

Huge Different.

lostling July 1 2008 1:57 AM EDT

dudemus only has 12 base AC... go figure

Tyriel [123456789] July 1 2008 2:00 AM EDT

Not everybody has 103 base AC on every minion. ;)

Most enchanters have very little/no AC. Tanks may have quite a bit, or very little, depending on ToA, choices between helmets, gloves, shields, etc. Mages usually don't have that much. Some even have negative base AC.

Khardin July 1 2008 2:19 AM EDT

What about making SG susceptible to evasion? Given a certain level, it has a certain + to hit. Can't shock what you can't grab. ;)

QBJohnnywas July 1 2008 2:22 AM EDT

Ranger: some questions:

Why should you be able to shut down LA's Shocking Grasp?

Why shouldn't he be able to kill a single minion per round?

Why should your minion order be preserved the way you want it?

LA does have the largest MPR in the game. Why shouldn't the largest DD spell out there be easy to shut down? You know full well if you were the owner of that spell and somebody COULD shut it down you would be complaining that it shouldn't be that easy to shut down the largest spell. Come on, you know you would be complaining.

Ranged teams were able to kill a single minion per round forever. And as Sut says somewhere, so have CoC teams. The only difference is you can diffuse the CoC if you have enough defense on your team.

The mageseeker completely kills minion order for mage teams.

Welcome to the same game most of CB have been playing all this time. Where you defend against one type of team and find yourself vulnerable to another. So? You don't like the game?

QBJohnnywas July 1 2008 2:27 AM EDT

It's also worth stating that I've been using SG the past two days. And I'm back to CoC.

My team is already set up to last until melee, lots of defense. But CoC works much better IMO. I have far more victims to choose from with it.

QBJohnnywas July 1 2008 2:33 AM EDT

Another thing to note:

With SG, my fights were on average 9-10 rounds.

With CoC my fights on average finish after around 7 rounds. So I'm taking out 4 minions sometimes in 2 rounds, considering for the first 5 rounds I don't do anything at all.

So the point being made that SG can take out a minion per round being one of the things that make it overpowered is pretty meaningless, when my CoC can take out multiple minions per round. In this particular situation CoC is much more overpowered.

QBJohnnywas July 1 2008 2:40 AM EDT

There is another point against SG: to make the most out of SG you need to last a lot longer than most teams. Funny that, a spell that's at it's best against high AC and defense needs huge defense itself.

Any SG familiar will need to be massively defended.

Usul [CHOAM] July 1 2008 3:00 AM EDT

JW you do know how to make your point by using 4 slots of the thread :P

Anyway I just want to report again, that the new spell is still not reflected on the attribute page. And protection is still taking a spot in attribute page.

It's trivial, but it's also a good point of reference to see how big everyone's SG is :)

QBJohnnywas July 1 2008 3:21 AM EDT

If something is worth saying it's worth saying many times!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 1 2008 3:36 AM EDT

"We went from a CB where one can have defense to a CB where "biggest wins"."


Same arguement about Evasion in Test2. Too hard to hit. Well it was the largest single stat at the time. And LA's SG is now the largest.

CB has *always* been about the largest wins.

The Largest Loch. The largest Morg. The largest EC. The largest Evasion. The largest amount of USD.

That won't ever change, it's the nature of the game. Welcome to our world...

You can have defense versus SG. Drop high base AC armour, use something like a combat Gi (base 1 easy to pump up to +50), layer that with ToE Aura or a RBF, a MGS and AMF.

Or kill the SG mage in Ranged.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 1 2008 3:38 AM EDT

"So the point being made that SG can take out a minion per round being one of the things that make it overpowered is pretty meaningless, when my CoC can take out multiple minions per round. In this particular situation CoC is much more overpowered."

This needs to be highlighted here.

The largest Morgs can kill one minion per round and need to last until Melee. So now we get a DD to do the same.

But facing a massive CoC, it can kill your whole team in the first round of Ranged.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 1 2008 3:40 AM EDT

" have pointed out... MM is 0.44 effective... compared to SG which is 0.58... this is a 20-30% damage increase... but its fine because SG starts in melee... it is the 1% to every base AC thats the problem here... currently with that you can super boost SG to 0.58 * 2.06 = 1.1948
this is LARGER then an equal COC concentrated on a single minion which is 1.0~ effective... too lazy to pull the decimal points from my excel sheet but yea you get the idea"

Lost, I read your posts. ;)

But it's something only Jon/NS can answer. Jon wanted CoC to still deal more damage versus a signle target, and probabvly he's not using the maximum amount of base AC possible to work out the numbers.

But if CoC on the whole isn't out damaging SG versus single minions (at whatever AC is considered normal) then SG damage should be lowered.

Cube July 1 2008 5:53 AM EDT

Ryosuke, if you're curious near the top of the page I think sutekh linked the biggest SG page. In a thread I made pointing this out also, bartjan linked the biggest Steel Skin page.

QBsutekh137 July 1 2008 9:50 AM EDT

Also, I am betting the character attributes page might not change until it is the "new" look -- in other words, I am betting Jonathan is revamping that next, which might be why he has not changed over the slots yet.

My link it nice to see who uses stuff, but it doesn't show the levels of the top attributes the way the main attribute summary page does... I'm not sure how to do that (if it can even be done via a standard URL...)

lostling July 1 2008 11:04 AM EDT

SG is is 0.588285335 and COC is 0.20570568 * 5 minions vs 1 minon

so in order for SG to match COC's output vs 1 minion it would require a ...
1.0285284 - 0.588285335 = 0.440243065
0.588285335 -> 100%
1 -> 169.98553941515472249533468312617%
0.440243065 -> 74.834954877806022480570589100238%
round off and you have 75... apparently i was wrong in the other thread... it requires 75 AC for SG to = the damage done by COC... however... it seriously doesnt make sense .... that the boosted damage isnt included in the "lashback" vs AMF...

Mikel [Bring it] July 1 2008 11:50 AM EDT

Biggest DD doesn't always win :)

I can beat him/Lose and stalemate LA, but I am forcing him to keep upgrading his NSC's. Which I think are a very strong item.

But that just means I will upgrade my Corns to +10 and Name them all. Then I can go back to upping nothing but my MgS and my DB's (since my main minion has over $200 mil enc free space left on him) and train nothing but HP on hiim and AMF on my enchanters. I will eventually force him to upgrade those NSC's again.

QBJohnnywas July 1 2008 12:00 PM EDT

To add 2 more + to his NSC will cost him over 30 million. Which would match Nov's pair. Not too many that size - nearly 50 million NW. Not too many people who could afford to boost them that much. NSCs that size are powerful; but I think the cost factor stops them truly being 'overpowered'.
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