The case of SG being too powerful. (in General)

Microchips cast Antimagic Field on Doodle Doooooo (0.29)
Prophecies cast Antimagic Field on Doodle Doooooo (0.46)

So almost a .5 AMF, which is quite a lot.

Now vs a 57 AC enchanter, with 12 base AC (+12% damage):
Doodle Doooooo takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (410912)!
Doodle Doooooo touches Microchips [1471370]

This is very strange to me.

Almost a .5 AMF and it deals out 3.5x damage then AMF return.

Yes AMF return is maxed at .4, but still.......

Compared to MM:
Microchips cast Antimagic Field on Chaos's familiar (0.35)
Prophecies cast Antimagic Field on Chaos's familiar (0.48)

Chaos's familiar takes damage from his own Magic Missile (848674)!
Chaos's familiar's Magic Missile hit Prophecies [1387508]

A ratio of 1.63x

Prophecies has a 107 AC.

NO TOE involved for either fight.

Now I used MM and SG to compare as both are single minion hit spells.

SG does tons more damage, but should not the AMF backlash be ramped up to match that of MM?

I've been noticing that AMF backlash is tiny in comparison to damage dealt in almost any situation. even against dudes with 0 base AC... In fact, the only time my backlash ever really looks right on my EF is when I'm going against a MgS... I'll dig around for some numbers of my own ^_^

If that data is from one of your recent fights... like in the last 5 minutes, then Dooodle Dooo has on both a ToE and a pair of NSes.

Maybe SG backlash should be higher than the backlash of other spells to help even it out.

Well everyone (some mages) has been complaining that the mages have had no love lately. There you have it. Buckets of love !
Honestly, I think with the huge number of changes Jon made this changemonth, he's probably trying something different. Remember MM gets to attack through ranged and just like CoC gets hammered by AMF maybe SG get a bit of a bonus here.
Maybe next changemonth Jon will tweak it. Maybe he considers it correct.

Your right about Freed, TOE is involved, I will try to fight someone similar without one.

Lidda cast Antimagic Field on not my junction dude's familiar (0.27)

not my junction dude's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (231961)!
not my junction dude's familiar touches Alhandra (21 base AC (79 final AC) with a MgS) [1044978]



not my junction dude's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (231961)!
not my junction dude's familiar touches Lidda (22 base AC, 103 final) [1604420]





not my junction dude cast Antimagic Field on Robillard (0.24)

Robillard takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (70548)!
Robillard touches so not GA (0 AC) [513395]

Someone without a TOE using SG:
Microchips cast Antimagic Field on Savanna (0.53)

Savanna takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (555834)!
Savanna touches Microchips [1268648]

So more AMF and less overall backlash %.

2.29x vs 1.63x for AMF of less with MM.

a wasted blow cast Antimagic Field on not my junction dude's familiar (0.22)

not my junction dude's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (189266)!
not my junction dude's familiar touches Jimmeh [1559912]

damage from his own Shocking Grasp (189266)!
not my junction dude's familiar touches Jimmeh [1396898]

damage from his own Shocking Grasp (189266)!
not my junction dude's familiar touches Jimmeh [1428273]

damage from his own Shocking Grasp (189266)!
not my junction dude's familiar touches him again [1038663]

damage from his own Shocking Grasp (189266)!
not my junction dude's familiar touches a wasted blow [1310533]





Jimmeh has no AC or damage reduction of any sort. him again has 9 base AC, with a final armor of 45, and a Mage Shield. a wasted blow has 5 base AC with 20 final armor.

Hatch,

How is the AMF backlash with MM when you cast for .22?

1/8th the damage as with the SG spell?

I also have a few excerpts from fights with a 3.1m DD level EF

fight 1

Nienor Niniel cast Antimagic Field on Aether, Cleric Summoner's familiar (0.45)
Aether, Cleric Summoner's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (327630)!
Aether, Cleric Summoner's familiar touches Turin Turambar [472083]
Aether, Cleric Summoner's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (327630)!
Aether, Cleric Summoner's familiar touches Turin Turambar [302624]

fight 2

Nienor Niniel cast Antimagic Field on Aether, Cleric Summoner's familiar (0.45)
Aether, Cleric Summoner's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (327630)!
Aether, Cleric Summoner's familiar touches Turin Turambar [338748]
Aether, Cleric Summoner's familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (327630)!
Aether, Cleric Summoner's familiar touches Turin Turambar [393660]


ToE
167 ac
22+6+3+10+4 base ac(45) + mgs

I'd assume this means the overpowered part of SG is level dependant because ToE + Reductions is keeping my damage down fine.

seems to be closer to 1/5, but due to heavy randomness and my AMF/GA combo, it's difficult to find a MM dude that that can make it to melee, and those that can usually have NSC/DM to where my sample point involves a whopping .05-.10 AMF... :P

i am still not sure that the new dd is too strong. i do feel that amf just doesn't necessarily do what it is intended to do any longer if i understand the intentions behind it as well as the restraints, but it just doesn't pack much punch. i am not sure if it needs the ability to reduce more damage, return more or both though.

when we had the free retrain, i dumped 160 million xp into amf just to see how it acted at an extreme level and i was really quite unimpressed. i still cannot say it is underpowered though as i really do not know jon's intention for it. i also do not know if it might be balanced around the mage shield and since i cannot use one on my team i will never see the big picture.

Vs LA:

Prophecies cast Antimagic Field on Little Anthony (0.27), a combo of 2 x AMF's

Little Anthony takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (542253)!
Little Anthony touches Microchips [3942023]

Microchips has 57 AC, 12 base

Vs Sut:

Prophecies cast Antimagic Field on Hubbell Man's familiar (0.27), 1 AMF with a MgS on the other AMF dude.

Hubbell Man's familiar takes damage from his own Magic Missile (186616)!
Hubbell Man's familiar's Magic Missile hit Microchips's familiar [989030]

My familiar had an AC of 0 that battle.

No TOE on either battle.

SG did 7.2x more damage then AMF backlash.
MM did 5.2x more damage then AMF backlash.

And, of course, the damage with the SG can most of the time exceed the TOE cap. Which some people like due to "damage reduction layers".

i have toe ! what are you talking about?

Shouldn't you be comparing it more closely to CoC then MM? MM fires in ranged whereas SG doesn't? I like this SG spell : )

for end damage comparisons, CoC is definitely the one to compare SG to. But for the sake of comparing backlash received to damage done, MM and SG go hand in hand, just as FB and CoC would ^_^

Yes, LA is now using a TOE, i forget sometimes.

I thought the ToE only protected against Amf if you had it equiped on your mage though.

The ToE gives endurance aura, which decreases damage to all minions-- the minion WEARING the tattoo gets a much greater damage reduction however.

In all my testing with CoC though, the amf protection is linked the minion wearing it. There wasn't any amf protection aura. I'm only like 80% sure on this.

Its not an AMF protection aura... but a damage protection aura.. protects against DD/physical damage.

I don't think Endurance effects Amf. I think the ToE effects Amf on the person wearing it, but Endurance itself does not effect Amf. Someone did some tests a bit ago and found the Amf protect to only be 1/30th of the level of the ToE, and that was on the minion wearing it.

greyfeld did the testing...
yes TOE gives AMF reduction... 3.33333% of its tatt lvl is the cap...
and yes... when SG deals extra damage... it gets 0 AMF retalation from the extra damage...

When AC/MgS/ToE etc reduce magic damage, AMF is not correspondingly reduced.

Why when the opposite occurs and (base) AC increases SG damage should AMF be correspondingly increased? You cannot have it both ways IMO.

AMF is based on raw DD effect before any damage reduction/increase through ToE/AC/ etc is applied, it has always been this way.

If SG needs nerfed (which I'm not convinced it does)then sure, go ahead and reduce overall damage or the damage bonus it gets from AC, but I don't like the idea of ramping up AMF backlash when DD damage gets amplified while not reducing AMF backlash when DD damage gets reduced.

Although I see Ranger is talking about cases of little or no AC on the defending minion, in which case, yes, from the fights you've shown AMF backlash does appear to be much lower than it should be when compared to MM.

Sacred brings up a great point.

One I did forget.

The perhaps we have a spell that is too powerful in its "special ability".

So here is an analogy:

What if the BoNE had vorpal ability?

To me this is similar to how the SG spell is designed.

Damage of the highest spell (concentrated on 1 minion), with increased damage for more AC (similar to the VB).

Remember all the hoopla that occurred when the base on the VB was 75? Most people, especially myself, were posting about how overpowered it was. Then it got neutered a too low to about 55, then to its recent 63--->67 incarnation.

IMO, seeing all the posts, including this one, I feel that SG will have to be changed to be balanced in this game. My recommendation to Jon would be to lower its base damage by about 33% to start, keep the increased damage for base AC, and make certain the MgS works vs it. This will give a range of 67---137% damage based on base AC. From the current 100---204% we have now. Still quite a lot concentrated on 1 minion. AMF, of course, would be on the base damage, not increased. Just as SP states, reductions in end damage do not reduce AMF.

This is just my personal recommendation for SG. I may be completely wrong according to some, but after playing with it, it is how I feel.

my take on this.... base damage is fine... becuse MM fires in ranged hence lower damage... as compared to a base SG...

however... it doesnt make sense... at least in my books that SG would overpower even COC vs a wall (full wall armor) i think a reduced boost from base AC is warranted

it would also solve the problem of how the extra damage from AC is not affected by AMF...

I think it's correct that the reason SG is overpowered is because Amf is basically ineffective towards it. Amf helps verus MM and FB far more because their damage can be reduced, thus the mage ends up doing more damage to itself than the enemy team, but this doesn't happen versus SG. I guess you could train a Massive AS, Amf, and ToE to counter it but besides that you're dead versus it.

a note... TOE is largely worthless against SG... your better off getting another tattoo

"Damage of the highest spell (concentrated on 1 minion), with increased damage for more AC (similar to the VB)."

But that's not how it *should* work. So if this is the case, I'd expect it to be lowered down.

Jon has stated that CoC should deal the highest damage on a single minion, pre 'special' increase.

So it's like saying the Morg is too good when compared to a Bone, because the special it has outweighs the lower damage it does (than the Bone).

And who uses a Bone over a Morg, right?

I concur, nerf that puppy. I always get nerfed, so let someone else feel the pain for a change. :)

Mikel,

It is not about having someone else feel the pain.
It is about a spell that is quickly transforming the game into Mage Blender.

Or perhaps Mage vs Missile Blender.

Since a melee tank has no chance. If one waits till melee, you give the SG user free reign to kill at least 2 minions. 1 from the HoC round, then 1 the same round you START to attack.

ENC effectively made it so you cannot use a large missile and melee weapon at the same time. All the while if your not in the 6 BA regeneration range, the Weapon Allowance was cut in 1/2.

So things are perhaps a bit BETTER near the top given since there is no negative Challenge Bonus. Tanks at the top can basically equip an weapon up to their ENC.

hah

Hah?

Seems the electric familiar ranks got another member.

/me remembers taking 1 look at the spell when it came out and declared it overpowered...
/me also remember reading the electric familiar post and declaring it the end of the world :)

Does anyone have any effect/spell level data? I see nothing is in the wiki yet.

I'm guessing it's around 53% of spell level since it supposedly does about 10% more damage than MM.

It does roughly 25% less than CoC, if I recall Jonathan correctly.

I think that's a helluva lot more than 10% greater of MM.

I get 68,246 level / 40,148 effect. which gives 58.8%

However my SG is quite small so won't be very accurate due to the asymptotic curve thing. anyone got a bigger one?

zzzz how many times do i have to post this data -.-

0.588285335 damage per lvl without AC bonus...
1.21186779 damage per lvl with full AC bonus 106 base AC...

as a comparison...
1.0285284 damage per lvl vs 1 minion with COC

enuff said

MM is 0.4408 damage per lvl

How big was your SG lostling? Remember the effect will asymptotically approach the true percentage as spell level increases so larger SGs will give a more accurate number.

I think it's more important to realize that the ranged damage of MM is pathetic. Range multipliers kill MM, so the ranged advantage of MM is hardly anything. And HoC round and 1 round of melee out damage MM. Hard.

why was there a range penalty anyway?

do remember this... since the change to linear lvling system... many things approach linearity... even DD spells but yea... i might be off by a decimal or so

"0.588285335 damage per lvl without AC bonus...
1.21186779 damage per lvl with full AC bonus 106 base AC...

as a comparison...
1.0285284 damage per lvl vs 1 minion with COC"

There you go.

Before the 'special', CoC is nearly twice as damaging than SG.

So we're back to using the Morg over the Bone as the Morgs inherant special make it that much better to use than the increased base damage of the Bone...

I also doubt that Jon/NS balanced SG versus CoC using 106 base AC as the figure.

actually the balancing amount is at 75 base AC... but seriously how hard is it to get that much base AC on the wall... and considering the backlash... i would still say SG is OP

Maybe it's not designed to be Balanced aorund Walls... ;)

as i said... the backlash alone is over powered not to mention the damage

I'll tell you what - I'll post a list of strats that I am considering in the future and we can just nerf the components of that strat up front.

"as i said... the backlash alone is over powered not to mention the damage"

See SacredPeanuts explaination. A very good one for why SG is the best DD versus AMF backlash.

i never said ramp up AMF damage... i've already stated i that i would like to see the "bonus damage" from base AC reduced... to 75% or 50%

Why not make ENC higher and so tanks can upgrade their bows higher so everyone stops complaining about SG mages?

SS,

Then you get all the people wailing about how USD is winning the game.

ENC is fine. Evasion is stupid and the new spell is just too damm powerful. Basically 1 or 2 hits to kill an opponent. 3 if your really really unlucky.

King Jamool's familiar touches Sting [1665527]

He casts a .41 on me...

I take 800k a round in AMF return, he gets nearly 500k HP a round from the TSA. As long as Mikel's setup exists you cannot call SG OP.

familiar takes damage from his own Shocking Grasp (826239)!
familiar touches Cloudscape [2222735]

(.39 AMF)

Cut the crap and quit trying to cripple the only weak points you've got.

O C'mon nov:

Mikel has so much into AMF it is almost stupid.

One can say any DD is pitiful vs that level of AMF.

However, with all that AMF you do 1.6M a round to him and take 800k backlash.

With your 8M HP on the familiar you last what? 8 rounds vs him.

This is yet another case of why the RBF is stupid, stupid, stupid.

No vulnerability to GA or AMF. A tattoo that does damage without consequence. A crock.

Nov,

Stop getting mad that AMF if super duper high is a foil for you. however, doing 2M a round with my AMF is not little thing.

"Mikel has so much into AMF it is almost stupid."


Only number 17 AMF in the game.

You seem to think you should be able to hit evasion minions with 10m levels...

LOL at JW:

He also has the 25th and 34th highest AMFs.

Together, remember they do stack, they are larger then my 8.5M effective levels after corns.

And Mikel has corns on all THREE of his AMF enchanters.

I'm not mad about AMF, I'm furious that you fail to see how wrong you are.

"You seem to think you should be able to hit evasion minions with 10m levels..."

No, but I expect to have the same dexterity or defensive dexterity bonuses as they do.

Have we forgotten about the AoF????

Lol back at Ranger. I'm not really in this one! Getting old!

Ranger, how about the AoF boosting Familiar DD by 30%, yet there being no equivalent for boosting AMF?

"No, but I expect to have the same dexterity or defensive dexterity bonuses as they do."

Stack PTH?

Just throwing in my two cents for no reason...

It does seem that SG is overpowered. Maybe reduce the 1% increased damage per point of base AC to 0.5% per point. The reason being that it's almost impossible to make an effective minion with 0 AC (I don't know how it could be done, actually).

It's not hard to make a minion fully equipped with 0 AC. More applicable is the fact that Shocking grasp only gets a bonus on the BASE AC. Most mages and some tanks don't give all that much of a bonus. My front minion has a total base AC of -5, which I'm assuming functions as 0 for the purposes of SG.

"Maybe reduce the 1% increased damage per point of base AC to 0.5% per point. The reason being that it's almost impossible to make an effective minion with 0 AC"

I disagree. I think all AC, not just base, should count for SG, but the spell should do minimal damage vs. 0 AC.

If the spell was meant to counter high defense, low defense should act as a counter to it.

"Ranger, how about the AoF boosting Familiar DD by 30%, yet there being no equivalent for boosting AMF?"

GL, Don't get me started on that inequality.

Of course it is wrong.

Just make SG extremely weak versus lower AC and its current strength against high AC, so that it is a situational spell, much like the VB.

SG:
strong against non AC
stronger against AC
casts in melee
focus damage on one minion
low AMF backlash

CoC:
strong against non AC
weaker against AC
casts in melee
splits damage between everyone
crazy AMF backlash



Why would you NOT choose SG?

"Just make SG extremely weak versus lower AC and its current strength against high AC, so that it is a situational spell, much like the VB."

Which is exactly what I suggested. *grin*

*grin* awesome, Bob. I didn't read through the whole thread before, just gave the same suggestion I did from day 1...if the answer is this obvious, why hasn't it happened yet? ;)

It is powerful enough for me to drop my MH to a 60M NW Bone and keep my entire fightlist intact.

I think that's probably because the BONE IS AWESOME!!! :D

Ah but is it powerful enough for you to go without weapons? After all you're set up to use it already, and you've the biggest tattoo? If it still needs that tank to sustain your victories then it isn't overpowered. Hey, if it can do it without then it's still not overpowered. Just the biggest tattoo.

I lose 3 people wihtout a weapon at all.

If I changed my tank to a full HP/TSA/PL wall, with perhaps some AS, I would beat all but 1.

Not too bad as I see it. Using no weapons and beating all but 1 person.

Much better then using my 240M NW MH and losing to 1 or 2 people.

Much much cheaper on the wallet.

This is turning into a clown war, people suggesting 45% bonuses to AMF and turning SG into a joke... seriously people.

Who suggested a 45% bonus to AMF?

People asked what my opinion on the AoF givening a 45% bonus to the DD level of familiar and I hate it.

Forgive me for being ignorant, but why does the AoF give that much +DD to the familiar? The item description reads "skills". I'm not suggesting any of you are wrong, I just want understand what mechanic I am missing.

Nevermind - When junctioned, AoF boosts familiar DD level as oppose to skill. I should have clicked the item and read all of the effects instead of just reading the short summary in the item list.

If you can't reduce the damage, amf doesn't work effectively. If the damage is concentrated GA doesn't work effectively. What I find ironic is that the only protection you can get from SG is a megaAC after the break even point.

Oh and can someone tell me the point of a VB anymore? It does less damage, so it can't break through Endurance/GA. Okay it got the new items versus evasion, but SG doesn't have to worry about evasion at all. Oh and don't bring up SG is subject to Amf because it quite simply doesn't work, so why use a VB anymore ever.

then dont :) follow the path of the mages

Just look at the to characters.

How many use CoC vs SG?

I know, I know, the top is not the entire game, but our fightlists are fairly stable.

The top CoC user is 26th score. There are at least 8 EF/SG users higher.

Also look at the familars.

The top IF is 1.6M, and there are at least 10 EF's higher.

CoC was the preferred spell for mages to do tons of damage, and now you can not find many over 2.5M score. Where there are less inactive characters to fight. Where you need to be at the top of your game to do well.

One simple reason for that, AMF. AMF is an overwhelming force that makes using CoC painful without a massive ToE. The EF and SG are a foil for the ToE, and are capable of doing extra damage without being punished by AMF. Jon must have intended it to work this way, considering how badly needed it was.

Prior the to the changes the only reason I was losing to Ranger's Koy was an AMF capable of returning better than 1.5m a round. Combine that with a ToE and even a little HP and no mage will ever have a chance.

Even with SG the solution to all mages is as simple as overtraining AMF and picking from the box of handy dandy stacking damage reduction methods. At least in the evasion race you can focus XP and NW on overcoming it, mages just get told that they deserve to be second class.

Novice. I'm confused. Mages get told they get to be 2nd class, but yet all the top people are going mage? I'm confused.

Mikel isn't a mage, Ranger certainly isn't either. In fact they are more enchanter dependent teams than anything else.

Edy... not a mage.

FTW, magey with a touch of pseudo tank.

Oxcha... Tank chanter wall...

and everyone else seems to also be running the same thing they were last time.

Mikel going RoBF and Ranger reinking don't make the top mage dominant. In fact the only way a mage could beat Ranger is GA.

Tanks are still vastly more flexible than mages. The NW of a tanks weapon is completely adjustable, allowing specialization to be encapsulated into a single item. Yes things change for everyone last month, but tanks crying poor prematurely is nothing new.

I am not crying, but saying that they are still tanks is kinda ... well.. iffy. They are more familiars now, but not tank. I doubt most of Mikel, or Rangers kills are because of a tank. Mikel I would bet is mostly the GA or the RoBF, and Ranger probably more the Familiar than anything else.

I personally won't complain anymore because what happens happens, but I will say that if I started over I would have a lot better mage team right now with the money I spent on this tank than my tank is doing. The only reason I won't change is because I'm stubborn and because I like being an archer and trying to make it work. Oh and just to say like every other week. I had to take off another person off my list because of evasion. +220 named bow with a huge ToA and huge Dex ... still not enough.

soxjr... ranger actually loses people for not using his MH :) but he said he could retrain so he didnt need it

We get it AMF is the evasion versus mages, but the fact that it basically doesn't function on SG is the problem... Do you see a tank that can counter the biggest evasion? Nope not at all the solution to countering evasion is apparently to go mage, and the solution to fighting AMF should be go Tank, not train SG and counter both evasion, Amf, ToE, and GA.

Yep, I can't kill off LA's SG Minion via AMF/GA.
10 Mil HP + big Mage Shield, big AMF, useless vs his big SG + NS.

Of course I am a mage centric character now.

I use high AMF to try to keep my familiar alive long enough vs MM and FB.

I also use a "mage" wall in back, that happens to have a huge MH.

But guess which minion does more damage.
The SG by 2.5 to 1 in most battles.

I could have trained someone different on my back tank and done the same as I do now.

But having a 240M NW MH and not using it was not palatable.

With a pair of +12 NS, I make all AMF's, including Mikel's uber AMF combo, .27 or less.

Worst case is I get 3 hits with my EF which is enough to kill at least 2 minions. Most of the time 3.

Then my tanks clean up the rest.

Yes, tanks have a great ability to switch equipment. However, their main weapon is stagnant, especially near the top ranks. Mages can easily, with 2% xp loss sometimes, completely change their focus. Something it would cost tanks 1/4-1/2 their weapons NW.

And why do that and spend all the money on a tank, when mages seen to have the best damage thingy in the entire game. Yes, vulnerable to AMF, but you need tons and tons of it due to what I personally believe is the most overpowered item, now item/spell combo in the game.

So get off this tanks have it great soapbox, since we do not. Mikel, Free, myself during the free retrain could have been anything due to our NW.

Guess where Mikel, Freed and myself are now--not tanks anymore. Yes, it is just a few people at the top which is not completely indicative of the entire game. But when people who can be anything choose RBF or EF, it should send a huge flag it is way overpowered.

lets focus here :) shall we?

Don't drag the Amulet of Focus back into the discussion lostling.

haha