Should PL not help vs GA? (in General)


QBRanger April 5 2009 1:42 PM EDT

PL works by absorbing damage done to minions.

Is not GA damage done directly to minions?

Hence, should not PL work if hit with GA damage?

Since people say GA is too powerful, perhaps this would help.

QBOddBird April 5 2009 1:43 PM EDT

I think that would be good...but then again, I plan on using PL, so I'm biased. ;D

lostling April 5 2009 1:44 PM EDT

i thought PL was OP lol... *shrug* aint gona go down that road again =x

Zenai April 5 2009 1:45 PM EDT

Agreed it defeats the purpose of PL in the first place, why not just have a reduced percentage instead of it completely not working at all?

MissingNo April 5 2009 2:16 PM EDT

Then GA should make you hurt yourself more since an opponent's AMF makes your own magic hurt you. Kinda like how GA hurts you when you damage your own minions with FB.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 5 2009 2:27 PM EDT

since it is retaliatory damage, i think that it is appropriate that it goes directly to the damaging minion rather than being diverted by pl.

BadFish April 5 2009 3:04 PM EDT

I think this is a good indirect nerf to GA, obviously since the damage reduction it's been just a little on the overpowered side.

three4thsforsaken April 5 2009 3:17 PM EDT

I don't like it. HP on a damage dealer is a great game balancing issue. Otherwise we'll see STR-only tanks, which I feel is kind of lame. Nerf GA before boosting PL.

Zenai April 5 2009 3:56 PM EDT

True good point 3/4s GA should be nerfed at least a little but I still feel that part of that nerf should be built into PL. Nerf them both to be honest. Make PL and GA be 10% less effective as well as "Fixing" the PL being able to absorb some of the GA damage. Say maybe PL only absorbs 20-30% of GA Damage.

Adminedyit April 5 2009 4:54 PM EDT

I think that PL should absorb damage done by GA, but then I'm also foolish enough to have the opinion that PL should absorb the damage done by AMF as well.

Cube April 5 2009 6:34 PM EDT

This was the only thing keeping my previous strats from being uber. Of course the RoBF solved this for it's later incarnation for the most part too.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 6 2009 9:34 AM EDT

Let me get this right

In one round you have 4 or 5 stages:

one: AMF damage

two: the actual damage done by DD or physical
three: PL sucking up damage
four: GA reacts to damage
(for multiple hits see two)

Five: TSA regenerates HP caused by damage

so only one and five happens once every round yet two, three and four depends on the number of times you get hit.
Correct so far?

But if this order of events is correct PL can never react to GA in its present form. Even if three and four happens at the same time.

Unless four and three switch, which means major overhaul of the combat system, GA can never be sucked up by PL.

thoughts?

QBRanger April 6 2009 9:36 AM EDT

Why then not add 4.5-PL sucks up GA damage.

No major overhaul needed.

QBJohnnywas April 6 2009 9:49 AM EDT

Personally I think it would be cool, and a little bit cruel as well if we did two things here.

One, lower GA's return, as people have been asking for a little while. And two, make PL weak against GA. So when you, with your PL at work fight against GA, the enemy GA retaliates against the damage dealer and, instead of draining the damage to the PL minion, damages BOTH the original damage dealer and the PL minion.

So, although GA would be weaker against non PL teams, it would become stronger against a PL team.

Who says that changes have to make things straightforward?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 6 2009 9:51 AM EDT

"So, although GA would be weaker against non PL teams, it would become stronger against a PL team."

Double the damage against a PL team? No thank you. That would be overpowered so fast seeing 50% of the users use GA and PL

QBRanger April 6 2009 10:02 AM EDT

How would it be double damage?

The GA damage, instead of going to the minion doing the damage would go to the PL minion.

There is no extra damage.

The PL minion would get its hp drained faster, however there is no overall increase in the overall damage.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 6 2009 10:05 AM EDT

"How would it be double damage?"

from Johnny's post: "damages BOTH the original damage dealer and the PL minion."

As I read it, the full damage goes to the PL minion and damage dealer.
Unless I read wrong and the damage splits between the two.

QBJohnnywas April 6 2009 10:09 AM EDT

Double damage, but only against a PL team, GA hitting the damage dealer, and an EQUAL amount hitting the PL minion.

But remember, reduced retaliation against other teams.
;)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 6 2009 10:56 AM EDT

"I think that PL should absorb damage done by GA, but then I'm also foolish enough to have the opinion that PL should absorb the damage done by AMF as well."

an robf decay minion would become untouchable and stronger than before i would think.

i tend to shy away from absolutes in the dynamics. pl working against everything would overpower it in my opinion and retaliatory damage is the way it is for a reason.

hp regenerating pl batteries would become necessary and that limits rather than increases our choices in my opinion.

QBRanger April 6 2009 10:57 AM EDT

That was not my proposal.

I propose GA being able to be sucked up by the PL minion.

That is my only proposal.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 6 2009 11:07 AM EDT

what is pl ineffective against as the game now stands?

amf, ga...are there more?

QBRanger April 6 2009 11:09 AM EDT

AMF and GA are 2 of the more important ways minions take damage.

The others?

Direct magic, direct physical.

Does PL work vs the RBF?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 6 2009 11:11 AM EDT

i think it did but would like to know for sure.

QBRanger April 6 2009 11:14 AM EDT

Right now I can think of 5 ways of dealing damage.

AMF
GA
Physical direct
Magical direct
RBF

PL works vs 2 or 3 of the 5.

Why not make it a full 5?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 6 2009 11:14 AM EDT

from above:

"hp regenerating pl batteries would become necessary and that limits rather than increases our choices in my opinion."

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] April 6 2009 11:16 AM EDT

or for the other answer:

rock, paper & scissors. everything needs a foil or the system fails.

Cube April 6 2009 11:19 AM EDT

PL does work versus the RoBF

QBsutekh137 April 6 2009 11:34 AM EDT

I think this could make pure-PL strats even harder to beat. I dislike PL far more than GA, but of course I am biased by the fact that GA doesn't affect me.

For the big PL strats out there, what beats you? If the answer is largely GA, then that's some food for thought. Then again, maybe draining the PL battery faster would end up being a boon to some GA folks...

QBsutekh137 April 6 2009 11:39 AM EDT

One more comment -- I WOULD make PL work against all five damage types except I don't like the way PL works now -- as a force field. Being able to have 20-HP minions, and have ALL types of damage absorbed would mean teams could have a huge PL battery that would effectively replace a large AS. Except, it wouldn't be able to be dispelled. That could introduce a lack of balance.

A huge PL battery with a TSA, then pure damage dealers that don't need to invest a single point in HP (and don't need to worry about ANY damage retaliation) -- just rubs me the wrong way.

However, change the way PL works, meaning if you land a blow that should kill on a non-PL minion the minion still dies, and I would be all for allowing PL to be a complete damage (all five types) absorber.

BadFish April 6 2009 11:47 AM EDT

Noone's going to throw any love to the Mace of Disruption?

Perfect PL foil right there. Add in double damage vs AS and you've got a winner.

QBRanger April 6 2009 12:18 PM EDT

However, change the way PL works, meaning if you land a blow that should kill on a non-PL minion the minion still dies, and I would be all for allowing PL to be a complete damage (all five types) absorber.--I agree completely.

The MoD is not that good.

I use one 45M and to tell you the truth, it stink.

Yes, it does good damage but at x3.5k I do about 300k a hit, 600k vs AS HP.

Compared to millions via SG or CoC or FB, that is pretty poor. Also, with that increased MoD damage, is increased GA.

Single minions get no lovin.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] April 6 2009 12:39 PM EDT

well actually:

Wall burns from the flames surrounding Mortis (182098)
Phantom Guy absorbs damage [182098]

PL does absorb RoBF damage

Colonel Custard April 6 2009 1:46 PM EDT

"However, change the way PL works, meaning if you land a blow that should kill on a non-PL minion the minion still dies, and I would be all for allowing PL to be a complete damage (all five types) absorber."

Isn't the point of PL that the targeted minion stays alive longer? If the target still dies, it doesn't really help to siphon off the extra damage, does it? I'd rather have my dead minion go 20k or 2mil into the negatives in HP in the post-battle stats and be dead than have him die and give 20k or 2mil damage to my PL battery. Right?

Are you suggesting this only for 1-hit kills? I still see it as a bit of a possible issue, even in that context.

BadFish April 6 2009 1:47 PM EDT

Ranger: Pretty much every weapon is immensely underpowered vs DD in my opinion :(

Colonel Custard April 6 2009 2:17 PM EDT

The MoD has some cool abilities, though I think a bit odd combination. PL and AS doesn't seem like it's as common a combination as AS and GA. Maybe the MoD could be improved by making its damage non-GA-able, so it works against AS-GA teams, and the PL block could be removed. I dunno. Maybe not.

I think the MoD is a niche weapon, not a big-damage weapon. It's for taking out meat shields and enchanters and 20-HP minions that are kept alive by AS or a PL battery or both. In the strat I'm currently running, I threw a tiny bit of ST and DX on my PL minion and gave him a MoD, just so that he can get a couple of hits in on DX-less HP-less minions, to get them out of the way. All it takes is 20 damage that can't be absorbed away, and you've solved the problem Sut has with PL.

QBsutekh137 April 6 2009 2:34 PM EDT

Warlord Tamerlane:

If the blow would kill, without PL siphoning off the damage, then yes, the minion dies. If a minion has a million HP, and I never land more than 1 million damage on him, and assuming the PL battery has an effective PL of one million, I could never kill the PL minion until the PL battery died. Hopefully that makes things clearer.

Changing the way it works stops folks from having 20-HP minions and keeping them alive with PL (at a discount in damage, no less). That scheme is basically a form of Ablative Shield, except there is no way to dispel it. Build one huge PL battery, slap a TSA on it, and the rest of the minions are free to invest in other things. If this GA change came about, the other minions would even be able to invest in pure offense, without having to really worry about indirect damage (AMF and GA backlash). I think that would be a bad thing.

That's my opinion, anyway...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] April 6 2009 3:10 PM EDT

Exactly Sute.

I would do it.

It would also render me immune to Decay.

Hell *everyone* would do it. There would be utterly no reason not to have your main as a 20 HP Damage Dealer, with a PL/TSA lifesaver.

Even if you change PL to not keep a minion alive if the hit would kill them, all that would do is make you train the *minimum* HP necessary to live through a single hit, and then you'd leave HP forever more.

AMF and GA are specific backlashes versus the specific damage dealer. They shouldn't be transferable off to another minion at all.

Dark Dreky April 6 2009 3:11 PM EDT

At least remove the damage discount factor!

three4thsforsaken April 6 2009 3:17 PM EDT

Agreed GL.


I feel that giving PL this boost would take out a very crucial balancing factor. Retribution damage is the sole reason why PL isn't the end-all solution.

QBRanger April 6 2009 3:23 PM EDT

Ok,

So it is not a good idea.

My first bad one :)

Colonel Custard April 6 2009 6:31 PM EDT

"Changing the way it works stops folks from having 20-HP minions and keeping them alive with PL (at a discount in damage, no less). That scheme is basically a form of Ablative Shield, except there is no way to dispel it."

Train 100 ST and 100 DX on one of your enchanters, and throw a base MoD on it. That should do 20 damage, shouldn't it?

QBRanger April 6 2009 6:32 PM EDT

So they train 1k hp on their minions.

They can train HP faster than you can train strength and spend money on upgrading the MoD.

Cube April 6 2009 7:08 PM EDT

Regardless, that wouldn't help versus AoIed 20 HP damage dealers

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] April 6 2009 7:17 PM EDT

Soc + MoD = Nuff said ^_^
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