For those thinking evasion is useless now: (in General)


QBRanger May 1 2009 8:08 PM EDT

I have +250 PTH on the HF and +226 on my minion

6 rounds of missile:

Hal struck deep into Alive [287435]
Eat absorbs damage [287435]
Wasp struck deep into Alive with The Lunatic [577015]
Eat absorbs damage [577015]

Eat regenerated 174,000 HP

Hal's shot went wide of Alive
Wasp struck deep into Alive with The Lunatic [457614]
Eat absorbs damage [457614]

Eat regenerated 174,000 HP

Hal struck deep into Alive [433760]
Eat absorbs damage [433760]
Wasp skewered Alive with The Lunatic [515232]
Eat absorbs damage [515232]

Eat regenerated 174,000 HP

Hal skewered Alive [296202]
Eat absorbs damage [296202]
Wasp struck deep into Alive with The Lunatic [779286]
Eat absorbs damage [779286]

Eat regenerated 174,000 HP

Hal skewered Alive [417246]
Eat absorbs damage [417246]
Hal struck deep into Alive [357872]
Eat absorbs damage [357872]
Wasp struck deep into Alive with The Lunatic [742979]
Eat absorbs damage [742979]
Wasp skewered Alive with The Lunatic [722758]
Eat absorbs damage [722758]

Eat regenerated 174,000 HP

Hal struck deep into Alive [367120]
Eat absorbs damage [367120]
Hal skewered Alive [388558]
Eat absorbs damage [388558]
Wasp skewered Alive with The Lunatic [639864]
Eat absorbs damage [639864]
Wasp struck deep into Alive with The Lunatic [523942]
Eat absorbs damage [431589]

QBRanger May 1 2009 8:09 PM EDT

And this is NOT about the BoE.

With enough xp, evasion does help a lot.

Yes, it does not prevent hits, but does lower them a lot.

three4thsforsaken May 1 2009 8:26 PM EDT

I like it.

Untouchable May 1 2009 8:27 PM EDT

no, i like it!

Little Anthony May 1 2009 8:38 PM EDT

i like it

Rawr May 1 2009 9:03 PM EDT

LA really likes it

kevlar May 1 2009 10:02 PM EDT

but the question still is was it nerfed too much? From the majority of the posts, aside this 1, the balance falls hard the other way.

AdminTitan May 1 2009 10:24 PM EDT

Kevlar: nerfed too much, nope, /end debate.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 1 2009 10:25 PM EDT

my humble opinion is that evasion is fine as it is, what needs further balancing is 100 bth weapons or familiars that use them. i feel that evasion works in a very efficient manner against all weapons except those wielding 100 bth.

QBRanger May 1 2009 11:48 PM EDT

Ah,
But all those with 100 bth get a penalty in the early rounds of battle.

So how many rounds do you get that full 100 Bth? 2 or 3 at most.

Then melee occurs with -60% bth and pth.

I think things are fine as they are.

Now an aside.

THE BOE HAS TO BE FIXED NOW!!!!!!!!

kevlar May 1 2009 11:52 PM EDT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyl5DlrsU90

QBRanger May 1 2009 11:54 PM EDT

You spam the same link twice in my threads?

Lord Bob May 2 2009 12:13 AM EDT

"but the question still is was it nerfed too much?"

No, it wasn't. There's not even a question there.

"From the majority of the posts, aside this 1, the balance falls hard the other way."

The balance falls where now?

Soul Eater May 2 2009 12:19 AM EDT

Ranger quit complaining about the BoE all the time it really gets annoying.

QBRanger May 2 2009 12:20 AM EDT

Yes, it is quite annoying this cannot be fixed.

Tyriel [123456789] May 2 2009 12:22 AM EDT

"And this is NOT about the BoE."

I think, because people are so used to 'complete' solutions (things that completely, or almost, nullify another), they don't see the value in reducing 3 hits to 2, or 2 hits to 1.

That, and there's always the fact that bows hurt, and it can be hard to stay alive even if you take 2 hits instead of 3.

QBRanger May 2 2009 12:31 AM EDT

Still people I fight have tens of millions of hp. At least some do.

So lowering hits from 3 to 2 a round can be a huge battle changer.

Especially with 2 archers.

3 x 2 x 6 would equal 36 hits.

Even lowering hits by 1 with 100 pth would give:

2 x 2 x 6 or 24 hits.

A 33% damage reduction from evasion. Not too shabby.

But as you say, people are so used to a complete solution. And fail to see the middle ground can be quite good.

ScY May 2 2009 12:37 AM EDT

Relax, don't do it? When you wanna... evade?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 2 2009 9:24 AM EDT

"Ah,
But all those with 100 bth get a penalty in the early rounds of battle.

So how many rounds do you get that full 100 Bth? 2 or 3 at most.

Then melee occurs with -60% bth and pth.

I think things are fine as they are."

my counter to this argument would be then that the specialty crossbows are fine as they are with all the penalties they face and with evasion working so well these days, it should be possible to just not get hit if one devotes themselves to that.

my point of course is not that the specialty crossbows are fine, but that you cannot say they 100 bth is fine with the current evasion metric but that something with only 55 bth is broken if it hits only once!

QBRanger May 2 2009 9:56 AM EDT

When the exbow with its 55 bth drains all your strength, yest, it is broken.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 2 2009 9:59 AM EDT

so, the evasion is fine as a counter to the 100 bth weapons but not to the 55 bth weapons?

if you nullify the plus through evasion and have a full dex advantage, how often would the specialty crossbows hit?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 2 2009 10:10 AM EDT

and does this still hold true?

"The penalties to ranged weapons used during melee combat are 80% for Slings, 60% for Bows and 40% for Crossbows."

AdminShade May 2 2009 10:21 AM EDT

My enchanter has 82 Evasion in combat effect, it works like a breeze, not even for that much exp :)

QBRanger May 2 2009 10:43 AM EDT

"so, the evasion is fine as a counter to the 100 bth weapons but not to the 55 bth weapons? "

Exactly!!!

When the 55 BTH weapon can drain 100% strength in 1 hit, vs just doing damage with the 100 BTH. The whole battle vs an exbow is avoiding all hits. Vs an elb, you can get hit but still do well.

If the exbow did not have its special ability, I would have no problem with it being 100 BTH.

But as long as the exbow is as it is, even a 10 Bth is too much.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 2 2009 10:46 AM EDT

from above:

"if you nullify the plus through evasion and have a full dex advantage, how often would the specialty crossbows hit?"

QBRanger May 2 2009 10:52 AM EDT

Almost never.

However,

Then your tank cannot use BL or archery. But has to be an evasion tank.

Joy o Joy.

So much for choice. Having to spend all your abilities to avoid 1 hit.

It is not a function of evasion, which I feel is balanced. But a function of how the exbow currently works.

Kong Ming May 2 2009 10:57 AM EDT

Another way would be don a big DBs and train more dexterity.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 2 2009 11:06 AM EDT

the game is rock/paper/scissors though! you have to choose who you win against.

it is ironic that the old evasion could negate all hits and thus was a counter to the specialty crossbows. we got it nerfed though and now the new evasion plus dex could still be a counter to the specialty crossbows at the cost of other skills.

now you want the specialty crossbows nerfed and i want the 100 bth nerfed. i agree with you regarding the specialty crossbows, but you still do not agree that 100 bth is overpowered.

i also find it telling that requiring evasion and dex to counter the 100 bth is ok as a balance metric (even for mages that really get no other benefit from dex) but not okay for tanks (who would be training dex anyways) as a balance method against the specialty crossbows because it eats up a skill slot. it is okay for the 100 bth counter to require a skill slot to reduce the hits and thus the damage.

so explain that disparity to me and perhaps we can understand each other better.

QBOddBird May 2 2009 11:22 AM EDT

I haven't really been keeping up with the thread, but I agree with dudemus.

QBRanger May 2 2009 11:51 AM EDT

If the 100 BTH was true in all missile rounds, I would agree.

However one only gets 100 BTH in 2-3 rounds. It is far less in the earlier rounds.

Considering archers only have 6 rounds to do their damage, I think it is fine.

With the specialty bows, one only needs to hit 1 or 2 times in 6 rounds to have their desired effect. As damage is very low and not the main effect.

Again, I will explain:

For specialty xobws one has to avoid ALL hits. Even 1 hit can lose the battle for you. If your tank is your only damage, your toast if your strength is gone. For single minion tanks, that is the battle.

With the elb, one can get hit and live long enough to kill your opponent. In fact, one can get hit numerous times and still be able to defeat your opponent.

That is the disparity.

QBRanger May 2 2009 11:54 AM EDT

Imagine if there was a DD draining bow. That worked exactly like the exbow.

WIth only 55 BTH, but get hit 1 time and all your DD is gone.

Then mages may understand.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 2 2009 12:02 PM EDT

that does not explain the disparity to which i was referring actually.

let me repeat, with 100 bth and evasion in its current form, the best we can hope for is reducing hits to a minimum. you are completely ok with mages having to use a skill slot and train a useless stat to only minimize hits.

with 55 bth it is possible for tanks to, burning a skill slot and investing in dex, which helps them in other manners, being able to avoid all hits by the specialty crossbows at the expense of losing to other teams. you think this metric is broken!

it would appear to me that there is either a double standard going on or at least a desire to have one setup beat more opponents and not have to choose which ones to beat as the other would need to do. that is the disparity i would like explained.

my solution is to balance the specialty crossbows as well as the 100 bth. i think they are both broken at the current time. i just fail to understand how someone can honestly say one is okay while the other is broken.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 2 2009 12:06 PM EDT

"Imagine if there was a DD draining bow. That worked exactly like the exbow.

WIth only 55 BTH, but get hit 1 time and all your DD is gone.

Then mages may understand."

imagine also then if there were an existing counter to it that caused another hard stat choice. yes there would be cries of uberness as well as cries of use the counter if you want to beat those teams. just as people are saying for mages to train dex if they want to live longer! ; )

QBRanger May 2 2009 12:06 PM EDT

Again,

If the 100 BTH was true for all missile rounds-sure.

But is it not.

And just 1 hit from the exbow takes your character down.

We got so used to complete nullification of damage with old evasion. However, we need to get used to getting hit a few times. Use evasion to remove 25-50% of damage, or do not.

Use dexterity and evasion to nullify it all. I fail to see a double standard.

I see mages complaining that they get hit, when they want the old way of no hits.

I see tanks having to avoid ALL hits from the exbow. Again a 100% different dynamic.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 2 2009 12:10 PM EDT

"If the 100 BTH was true for all missile rounds-sure."

aren't the 55 bth weapons hindered by this as well, even moreso?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 2 2009 12:13 PM EDT

Right now there is no counter to the ex/axbow. Yes you could train dex and evasion to the point where they would have no pth and you have a very high dex advantage. But you need to eliminate hits entirely. This wont happen doing that. The only people this would stop completely are enchanters with no dex of their own. If they have 1 mil dex, and you trained 5 mil You have 5 times what they have into dex, they would still likely hit you at least 1 time in ranged and that is enough to end it. In this example they would still have about 16% cth in each round of ranged. With 6 rounds the odds state that you will get hit once. You really can't conceivably reduce this any farther.

That is the problem with how specialty bows are right now.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 2 2009 12:21 PM EDT

my evasion on my jkf is only at 115 now and i have over 5m dex. against the largest plus specialty crossbow on iconics 3e, i usually take him down to one hit in ranged. if my evasion was closer to nullifying all of the plus on his bow, i couldn't negate all hits at least part of the time?

QBRanger May 2 2009 12:26 PM EDT

Yes,

They suffer the same penalties.

However, again, one hit, for 1 damage takes all your strength away.

So unless you use DBs or high evasion, one scratch makes you lose.

Opposed to just getting hit for damage.

But an exbow hits me twice, my entire character is gone. No matter how many HP my character has left. Characters with 1 tank, 1 hit is the entire battle.

So, remove the penalties in ranged and lower the BTH of the elb to 70%, fine.

But we do agree the exbow is completely out of line.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 2 2009 12:27 PM EDT

yes, both the 100 bth and specialty crossbows need balancing. that is what i believe fully.

QBOddBird May 2 2009 12:27 PM EDT

I think what Ranger's trying to say here, dudemus, is that Evasion isn't useless because it cannot knock out every hit directed its way; it has become more like AMF, destroying a percentage of the damage (i.e. a number of hits.)

Example:

Instead of hitting 900k damage, the AMF causes the mage to only hit for 600k and take some damage.

The tank would've gotten 900k in 4 hits, but the Evasion causes 2 to miss, so it effectively has its damage reduced to 450k.

Whereas before:

Instead of hitting 900k damage, the AMF causes the mage to only hit for 600k and take some damage.

Instead of hitting 900k, the tank whiffs and does 0 damage.


I don't think that means Evasion is useless, I think that means it is more balanced; and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I don't see how it relates to the Exbow debate where Exbows can destroy a stat via a pretty darn reasonable amount of NW.

QBRanger May 2 2009 12:28 PM EDT

Dude,

The key is 5M dex.

How many tanks have that dexterity?

And do minion tanks need to train that much just to avoid 1 hit?

I do not care if I get hit a few times with an elb. But 1 hit from an exbow scares the poop out of me.

QBRanger May 2 2009 12:34 PM EDT

Thank you OB,

That was a perfect explanation.

Opposed to the exbow where 1 hit is game over.

Now with the 100 BTH. Again if the 100 was in all rounds, great lower it.

However as you can see from my first post, I only hit 1 time in the first 3 rounds with my HF even missing once with my 100 BTH.

I suspect the penalties are at least 50%.

Remove the penalties in ranged and sure lower the BTH.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 2 2009 12:35 PM EDT

"And do minion tanks need to train that much just to avoid 1 hit?"

yet it has been recommended that mages train dex to maximize evasion as well as decrease dex advantage.

once again, i know the specialty crossbows are out of whack just as much as i know 100 bth in the current evasion metric is out of whack. i was merely using the crossbow argument to make my point.

i do not think evasion needs buffing, unless specialty crossbows or 100 bth stay the same.

QBRanger May 2 2009 12:40 PM EDT

I think we agree on almost everything but 1 thing.

The 100 BTH.

However it is not 100 BTH for all 6 rounds.

It is far less in the first 3, as shown by my first post.

I think it is fine, with a ramping up BTH, you do not.

I can respect that. But we need to fix the exbow and the BoE as it skews evasion greatly.

The BTH thing I guess will be a point of contention.

I would agree to lower it, IF the ranged panalties are removed.

Average all the rounds and I suspect we are looking at close to 70% BTH average.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 2 2009 12:43 PM EDT

This is one thing I have been wondering about but why is 100 bth not balanced. Bth is the amount of cth you have when you have the same amount of dex and also the limit that evasion by itself cannot reduce beyond.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 2 2009 12:45 PM EDT

but all other ranged weapons get that penalty. so that is not something specific to the elb or hal.

would you be ok with all ranged weapons being boosted to 100 bth?

QBRanger May 2 2009 12:48 PM EDT

"would you be ok with all ranged weapons being boosted to 100 bth?"

If the exbow is balanced, with the ranged penalties currently in place, SURE!

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 2 2009 12:52 PM EDT

The other two ranged weapons the SoD and the mage seeker are both 90+ bth themselves. It is only the specialty xbows that are at 60 bth.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 2 2009 12:55 PM EDT

Ranged Base to-Hit 60

The SoD is 60

Lord Bob May 2 2009 12:55 PM EDT

"i do not think evasion needs buffing, unless specialty crossbows or 100 bth stay the same."

Evasion does not need buffing. Specialty crossbows need a nerf.

You do not fix a broken feature by breaking everything else around it so it doesn't stand out. You fix the broken feature.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 2 2009 1:01 PM EDT

If it is only bows with the very high bth I think it is a fair thing. You have to train archery using up your skill slot and exp in order to make use of the 100 bth.

Unless you think it is unfair to get 40 extra bth by training 1/5 of your str into a skill that gives nothing else.

QBRanger May 2 2009 1:10 PM EDT

Nem,

I had forgotten that aspect as well.

I have 1.1M levels in Archery that could be far better used in DM.

Your post convinced me things are fine with BTH.

But the exbow is not...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 2 2009 1:33 PM EDT

i am still not convinced. if a skill that you only have to train as a ratio to another skill can balance 100 bth. then a skill like evasion that you have to dump much more xp into it should counter 100 bth better, no?

QBRanger May 2 2009 1:38 PM EDT

But it is not 100 BTH.

I have been trying to say that for this entire thread.

It is far less if you count the penalties one gets in the early rounds.

Remove that penalty and I can agree to lower the BTH.

Comparing it to other missile weapons is a tough exercise.

1) Exbow has to hit 1 time to do in a tank. Hence the lower PTH. Also does not need a skill to use properly. But is wickedly unbalanced.

2) SoD does not need a skill to get full BTH. And its damage is a bit different in effecting numerous minions.

3) MsB needs a skill and gets 90 BTH, but has a special ability.

4) ELB needs a skill and gets 100 BTH, and does the most damage.

However, as stated, it is not 100 BTH on the ELB if you average all the missile rounds.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 2 2009 1:39 PM EDT

unless we change evasion to where it only needs to be changed to 1/5 of hp for max effect of reducing down to bth! ; )

QBRanger May 2 2009 1:41 PM EDT

And change the upgrade curve of weapons to a % of the tanks HP while we are at it.

C'mon. let us be a bit real now.

Damage from the bows are partially based upon strength, therefore the need for a ratio to train archery.

Evasion reducing PTH should have nothing to do with HP on the minion.

QBOddBird May 2 2009 1:43 PM EDT

Evasion doesn't need a change, IMHO.

Lord Bob May 2 2009 1:47 PM EDT

"Evasion doesn't need a change, IMHO."

Amen.

LittleLauren May 2 2009 1:53 PM EDT

"Evasion doesn't need a change, IMHO. "

Exactly what I was thinking. Evasion is just as balanced as AMF now.

QBRanger May 2 2009 1:54 PM EDT

I think OB stated things perfectly in his comparison of AMF and evasion.

Should be required reading and in the wiki.

Hint Hint

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 2 2009 2:15 PM EDT

i have read it, understand it and agree. my only issue is the 100 bth items, it is just too good! the other thing may be that ranged is bugged at the moment. i would not be surprised by that at all and if fixed then i may not feel so strongly about the 100 bth. i too think evasion is fine as is, except in regards to 100 bth.

let me see if i can explain my problems with it another way. ranged and melee seem to be balance around one hitting less but doing more damaged while the other hits more and does less damage.

with bth's the way they are though evasion can still be effective against melee in a very balanced manner. evasion can also be effective against ranged damage in a very balanced manner except for the 100 bth items. evasion can reduce the number of hits with certain weapons but not all.

so what is the counter to 100 bth? as with the robf, people think that more hit points or more armor is not enough, so why is it enough now? we are then left with evasion in conjunction with dex advantage. for melee types that is fine as well. what do mages do though.

we are then told mages should train dex. here is my dilemna, if mages need to do all of that to counter a skill/weapon combo why can't anyone that uses strength then train evasion and dex to an extreme to counter specialty bows?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 2 2009 2:17 PM EDT

err, specialty crossbows that is. : )

Cube May 2 2009 2:17 PM EDT

Why is counter defined as immune to one type of damage?

AdminTitan May 2 2009 2:18 PM EDT

"we are then told mages should train dex. here is my dilemna, if mages need to do all of that to counter a skill/weapon combo why can't anyone that uses strength then train evasion and dex to an extreme to counter specialty bows?"

Ok, don't train dex, get some 150M NW DBs, lower tanks to one hit, and voila, a 66% reduction in damage. I wonder how much AMF I would have to train to get that much reduction.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 2 2009 2:20 PM EDT

i am not asking for evasion to make you immune. i am asking for 100 bth to be lowered in order to be hit less.

evasion in its current state really cannot grant immunity if someone really wants to hit can it?

AdminTitan May 2 2009 2:21 PM EDT

"evasion in its current state really cannot grant immunity if someone really wants to hit can it?"

Should it? I'm serious should it?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 2 2009 2:47 PM EDT

Dude this is what I do not get. Lowering the 100 bth is not going to lower the number of hits by very much at all, especially in the case of a mage who is not training dex. What do you want it lowered to? 70? in that case you have just lowered their cth from 200% to 170% not that much of a difference. That also makes archery that much more useless. All archery does is take away the penalty that comes with bth on bows.

QBRanger May 2 2009 2:48 PM EDT

Again

Averaged over the 6 missile rounds it is not 100 Bth. If it was I would agree with you.

But it is far from 100 in all rounds.

iBananco [Blue Army] May 2 2009 3:01 PM EDT

In that case, can we get AMF buffed to grant magic immunity using just one minion's experience?

Little Anthony May 2 2009 3:12 PM EDT

i have more evasion than your pth and yes i do have 1mil+ dex. this battle logs seems reasonable.

QBRanger May 2 2009 3:18 PM EDT

You are also using a very bugged item raising your evasion higher than it should be.

A very abusive thing indeed.

QBOddBird May 2 2009 3:28 PM EDT

I thought we settled on "since Jon is aware of the problem and chooses not to fix it, we're not going to be mad at people who use the item that he's allowing to remain buggy, and they're not going to be surprised when it gets nerfed"?

QBJohnnywas May 2 2009 3:31 PM EDT

Ranger's just annoyed that a single minion can't make use of it and wear a tattoo.

AdminTitan May 2 2009 3:33 PM EDT

I'd be pissed t.o, but maybe not as vocal.

three4thsforsaken May 2 2009 4:07 PM EDT

I think the real problem is that some people think that there should be no REQUIRED stat to be competitive and others believe there should.

Ranger doesn't want to require to train evasion because that limits the options of tanks. You can't be an effective archer if you go evasion. You can't have decent str if you invest too much in dex. But currently if you want to play competitively you have to train evasion to counter exbow, an item. Not a strat. An item.

Meanwhile, Dude believes that there should be more of a requirement to play competitively because he believes in a more rock/paper/scissors style of CB. Everything should have a counter.

I am going to argue against the rock/paper/scissors argument, well to a point. Everything should have a counter, but nothing should have only one counter. Such a setup only decreases strat versatility.

Decreasing strat versatility is not good for the game. Should every tank have to train evasion? If the answer is yes we're going to see a lot of the same stuff at the top. But people want to try the other skills, and CB should allow it without making them feel like they're giving up a safer and probably better strategy just for the sake of exploring game mechanics.

QBRanger May 2 2009 4:25 PM EDT

Actually no JW,

You are 100% incorrect.

Even if I could wear it, how does that help me hit LA?

My dexterity is 3x his so I have a near maximum Bth.

It is the PTH that gets me. Instead of my +251 (HF) and +227 (ELB), I get ZERO PTH from each.

I should, if the BOE was not stupidly bugged, have about +100-150 PTH over his NORMAL evasion level.

How is using a BoE, while broken, going to help me at all ve those that use it for an evasion boost.

Please read the posts and realize the game mechanics before you put words/text into my mouth.

If LA really wanted to get a 200+ evasion effect, fine, great, outstanding. But he would need a lot more xp then he currently is using, making his natural dex lower and even then, may only have had enough xp to get 150 effect on a 4 minion character.

All we type about is wanting balance. The BoE is skewing it exceptionally so.

I cannot use it due to being a single minion, yes. But even if I could use it, it would do me no good vs those that currently abuse it.

QBRanger May 2 2009 4:26 PM EDT

But I am sure once I leave CB, the BoE will be properly fixed. Just like evasion was.

QBOddBird May 2 2009 4:31 PM EDT

so...you are planning on leaving periodically in order to get the various bugs fixed? O.o

That'll seriously screw with trying to get back on top, you know.

QBRanger May 2 2009 4:34 PM EDT

Well anyone else have a better idea to get it fixed?

Asking nicely did not work.

Begging did not.

Getting upset did not.

What is left?

Hakai [Aye Phelta Thi] May 2 2009 4:42 PM EDT

You know. Requesting that something that is broken be fixed is one thing.

But then you go and make remarks such as, "But I am sure once I leave CB, the BoE will be properly fixed. Just like evasion was," and I forget that you are a grown adult with a family. Instead I picture an emo 14 year old. Ranger, I'm all for everything getting fixed. But please don't turn everything around to make it seem as though it's all about you. :(

AdminTitan May 2 2009 4:45 PM EDT

"But I am sure once I leave CB, the BoE will be properly fixed. Just like evasion was,"

Hakai, I get where you are coming from. But, ask yourself this: Is what Ranger said not exactly what happened. Many people had complained for a long time about evasion being OP, which it was. Ranger decided to leave b/c his Morg was nothing more than a door stop. What do you know, right after he leaves, poof, suddenly Jon has time to fix it.

QBRanger May 2 2009 4:46 PM EDT

It is not all about me.

However, unless one is vocal nothing gets done. We all know that. Things will be on the back burner for a longer time.

And please tell me that it is just a temporal relationship that the minute I sold out before evasion gets properly balanced.

And I am not the first to state that.

QBOddBird May 2 2009 4:57 PM EDT

"What is left?"

Well, if you seriously believe leaving is the only way to get a problem fixed, I'll see you when you come back.

But honestly, I think being patient and waiting is a better solution.

QBRanger May 2 2009 5:02 PM EDT

OB,

In the overall scheme of time of CB, 6 weeks is not a lot.

However, when something is this stupidly bugged, it is a long time.

Especially when it was never designed to work this way.

But I have gone on far far too long and I will stop.

Thanks for everyone reading this thread.

I just wanted to show evasion is not useless, and can very much help in battles.

Even though it is not the all or nothing skill it was before.

QBsutekh137 May 2 2009 5:02 PM EDT

What is left? Well, silence.

And silence is what happened (a bit more, anyway) when you left the game previously.

At some point, you need to realize the Universe (not even the CBVerse) does not revolve around you, nor should it. Things get fixed when they get fixed. If you think that is in relation to a single post, a tirade of posts, a person leaving, or a person returning, then all I can say is: Your wrong. (I spelled "you're" the way you like it...)

Seriously, we could try silence for a while, no? Let Nightstrike catch up on posts without having to wade through 150 new ones retreading the same couple of rants?

QBJohnnywas May 2 2009 5:20 PM EDT

The Mighty Hands Of Love shot Alive [39416]
Eat absorbs damage [39416]

The Mighty Hands Of Love shot Alive [42854]
Eat absorbs damage [42854]

The Mighty Hands Of Love shot Alive [42996]
Eat absorbs damage [42996]

The Mighty Hands Of Love hit Alive [39763]
Eat absorbs damage [39763]

The Mighty Hands Of Love hit Alive [63697]
Eat absorbs damage [63697]

The Mighty Hands Of Love shot Alive [53906]
Eat absorbs damage [53906]

That's six rounds of ranged against LA. I don't miss, but it is only single shots, so I can appreciate the idea that without the BoE you'd be doing more damage. I've got a +112 on this particular attack. So if the BoE is boosting evasion it's not doing it so that LA's char is untouchable. I don't miss once.

I really don't think the BoE breaks your fights, it just stops you winning. But I can't beat you because of your HAL. Does that mean the HAL is broken?

The fact that LA can beat you with a piece of equipment isn't proof that somethings broken. You do know that don't you?

QBRanger May 2 2009 5:35 PM EDT

JW,

The fact I win if he does not use the BoE shows me it is borked.

You are hitting only via dexterity advantage (bth).

Jon stated specifically the BoE was a fixed bonus and not a upgrade dependent one.

How can you say it is not broken?

I should be hitting him 2-3 times instead of 1-2.

My damage is been hurt by 33-50% vs him.

Yes, you lose with the HF, but that item is working exactly as Jon wants it to.

To compare the BoE to the HF is just plain.... (words cannot describe my amazement).

QBsutekh137 May 2 2009 5:50 PM EDT

FTR (for the record), I do think the BOE is broken. I've heard novice's arguments, I've heard other arguments, etc. But it is supposed to be flat. If it isn't, it pretty much makes the suite of Elven gear useless. Who needs EBs when they can buff a BoE and increase Dexterity by a factor of three?

No. The way the BoE works now doesn't make sense.

And I think everyone kinda knows that. Battle-changing or not, it doesn't fit. You know, like on Sesame Street -- "One of these gears is not like the other..."

So if you are trying to tell Ranger to tone down by saying you think the BoE is really OK... Well, good luck. I won't agree, and Ranger shouldn't either. I think that's just a wind up.

But if you want to appeal to Ranger's sense of silence, then please do that (I did). It might help. It's not because silence necessarily works, it's because vociferousness doesn't necessarily help.

QBsutekh137 May 2 2009 5:52 PM EDT

And by the way, I think I was actually in one of the earliest threads about the BoE, and found that not only does every plus help its effect, the BASE helps the effect. That is most certainly incorrect, right?

Or has that been shown to not be the case? I am going to go run some numbers against my PL...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 2 2009 6:07 PM EDT

Ah PL.

Now PL and DS is a nice counter to the Speciality X Bows....

Why doesn't that get mentioned.

100% BTH is rubbish. But I'll not revist that thread. It's all there if anyone wants to brush up on the reasoning.

The E/AXbow stat draining is Rubbish. I'll not go there again.

But Evasion isn't it's only 'counter'. It seems like the Uber Stat in CB, PL, has had a small change forgotten.

PL absorbs stat drains as well.

Want a counter to the XBows? Train STR/DEX on your PL E. Useless stats for them? I'll just refer you back to all the suggestions Mages should train Dex...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 2 2009 6:09 PM EDT

That should be GS and not Ds above...

QBRanger May 2 2009 6:14 PM EDT

Single minions cannot use a PL minion to help.

And of course, it only helps on the first hit, no matter what Str your enchanter/PL minion has. Since it will drain 100% of your str in 1 hit.

Ok, so now tanks have to get hit twice, that does not really change the problem of 100% drain.

I wish with 2 hits from my elb, I can take out any character/minion.

Like I stated, and others have also, give me a DD draining bow that takes all DD away in 1 hit. At only x3500.

O, the rants and posts that would create.

QBsutekh137 May 2 2009 6:16 PM EDT

GL, that's not what I meant about PL -- I am just testing with it.

I get what seems to be 42 x 8% boost to my PL. The base, plus + on my BoE is 48. I have some other gear that reduces skills, though.

In any case, my BoE is only +30. Times 8% that would mean a 240% increase. I am at more than that -- and nothing else gives it or COULD give it.

So, who can tell me the BoE really isn't broken? It doesn't even make any mathematical sense. How easy is that to test? Pretty damn easy. Equip it.

Maybe I need to start on some of that vow of silence now...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 2 2009 6:22 PM EDT

"GL, that's not what I meant about PL -- I am just testing with it."

I know mate! ;) It just reminded me aobut the usefulness of PL in this situation! The BoE is broken. No doubt aobut it.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 2 2009 6:24 PM EDT

Here is what I love... using dbs/evasion and massive dex is presented as a fine counter to the elb, but way too hard to use against the exbow.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 2 2009 6:25 PM EDT

"Single minions cannot use a PL minion to help."

And?

"And of course, it only helps on the first hit, no matter what Str your enchanter/PL minion has. Since it will drain 100% of your str in 1 hit."

Then have 4.

"Ok, so now tanks have to get hit twice, that does not really change the problem of 100% drain."

Never said it did. Don't try to twist the arguement. It won't fly with me any more Ranger.

"I wish with 2 hits from my elb, I can take out any character/minion."

Up the X. I'm sure you'll get a large enough MPB with it soon enought to do that.

"Like I stated, and others have also, give me a DD draining bow that takes all DD away in 1 hit. At only x3500."

And? The XBow drain here isn't the issue, go make another thread (again...) aobut it.

"O, the rants and posts that would create."

None by you. I'm sure...

QBRanger May 2 2009 6:28 PM EDT

Of course you forget that only the highest PL works. So having 3 PL minions does not even come close to working as you suggest.

GL, I really will not try to change the argument with you. As you do not get the point I am making.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 2 2009 6:32 PM EDT

I get your point, and I agree with it (the XBow Drain). That's not what I'm posting about though.

As for the PL, have three equal sized ones. If that doesn't work, stick them on 20HP Es, so one dies each time.

It might not be effective, but then it's about as effective as trianing Dex on a Mage.

So as soon as we can stop suggesting trianing Dex on a mage as any sort of effective 'counter' to Base PTH, I'll stop offering it as a way to counter the XBow Drains. Deal?

QBRanger May 2 2009 6:42 PM EDT

"So as soon as we can stop suggesting trianing Dex on a mage as any sort of effective 'counter' to Base PTH, I'll stop offering it as a way to counter the XBow Drains. Deal?"

Again, you miss my point.

There is no reason you HAVE to train dexterity to avoid the elb. Even if your hit, you can still live long enough to do damage. You can have a PL minion, a lot of HP, a TOE, etc...

However, as a tank you HAVE to avoid being hit from the exbow 2 times, if you train PL, to avoid being unable to do ANY damage.

It is not nearly the same.

The reason I state to train dexterity is if you want to avoid ALL blows like evasion was in the past. I am not advocating doing it, but it is an option.

Again, in summary, being hit with an elb is not game over. Being hit with an exbow is.

With evasion, it is nicely balanced, and I am not alone in my conclusion. But the BoE makes the trained evasion super high, making it give excessive FREE xp/MPR.

iBananco [Blue Army] May 2 2009 6:44 PM EDT

"Here is what I love... using dbs/evasion and massive dex is presented as a fine counter to the elb, but way too hard to use against the exbow."
That's because it actually WORKS against the ELB. One nick is all it takes for the exbow. Hardly true for the ELB.

"So as soon as we can stop suggesting trianing Dex on a mage as any sort of effective 'counter' to Base PTH, I'll stop offering it as a way to counter the XBow Drains. Deal?"

There's a significant difference between 3M levels that could easily be on an evasion wall minion and dedicating 3 enchanters purely to non-AS spells, especially when the latter option only works for three rounds unless combined with both high DX and DBs.

AdminShade May 2 2009 7:18 PM EDT

Total Evasion 85

Brakke Bres [Ow man] May 2 2009 7:32 PM EDT

meh evasion, it still sucks, because the only real reason its ow so handy now, is because the BoE gives it so much free levels.
No one would have the free exp to train it to those levels the BoE gives for free.

QBOddBird May 3 2009 3:41 AM EDT

"As for the PL, have three equal sized ones. If that doesn't work, stick them on 20HP Es, so one dies each time. "

That was what I had to do when I was running Black Sophist - I had the hal firing and 3 of my minions as PL enchanters, and I had to get the HP *just* right so that they absorbed enough of the hit to get the STR drain, but not enough to survive.

That managed to prolong NS's Exbow by 2 rounds, and since at the time he had that minion in front, that gave me time to kill it (unless the damage variable screwed meover) and beat his team.

I think we can all agree, though, that forcing your entire team into PL enchanters to support a familiar to beat the Exbow is...less than a solution. :P

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 3 2009 5:26 AM EDT

It's ok OB. You could always train Dex and Evasion instead. Base cth on the XBows is 55 (not 60), so it should be much more effective than using Dex and Evasion to counter an ELBow.

AdminTitan May 3 2009 6:25 AM EDT

Ok, sorry for borrowing the thread for a second, but it's a hot thread so I know someone will see this. I don't have a new thread button in my forums, and my chat won't load. Anyone else having problems?

QBRanger May 3 2009 9:53 AM EDT

GL,

Why cannot you get thit through your head?

If you get hit by the exbow just 1 time, or 2 times if you have other minions, you lose. LOSE!!!

If you get hit by the elb 10 times, you can win.

HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!!!

Get over the training dex on a mage to avoid ALL HITS. It is a way to avoid all hits, I am not recommending it, but if you just have to avoid all hits, train dexterity.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 3 2009 6:11 PM EDT

(Ranger, it's not me who's missing the point. Before I begin let me reiterate once again I think the XBow Drains are wrong. With that said, hopefully a parody of your last post will help expalin things easier.)

Ranger,

Why cannot you get thit through your head?

If you get hit by a large enough ELBow just 1 time, or 2 times if you have other minions, you lose. LOSE!!! (Just like the XBow needs to be large enough to drain all STR in a single hit. Let's not compare a x4000 XBow with a x10 ELbow shall we...)

If you get hit by a small enough XBow 10 times, you can win.

HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!!!

Get over the training STR on an E to absorb ALL DRAIN. It is a way to absorb all drain, I am not recommending it, but if you just have to absorb all drain, train strength.

(As an aside, It's easier for Dexterity and Evasion to trump an EXBow than it is to trump an ELBow.)

QBRanger May 3 2009 6:16 PM EDT

First,

No matter what amount of strength you train on your Enchanters, it all gets drained first hit.

Second,

A x4000 exbow can drain all strength. A x4000 elbow is like peeing in the wind at the middle to higher ranks vs some opponents.

There is not 1 person who I hit 3 times with my elb where they lose. THe minimum amount of hits I have to do is 7 between my HF and my elb.

A far far cry from the 1 hit wonder the exbow is.

Your "parody" post is nothing more than showing you fail to grasp the key points of the debate.

I did expect more from you.

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 3 2009 6:18 PM EDT

Feels like old times, with Ranger and GL fighting it up. ;)

AdminTitan May 3 2009 6:22 PM EDT

"Feels like old times, with Ranger and GL fighting it up. ;)"

Yeah, lol. Why I wouldn't have said it quite like Ranger did, lol. I do agree with what he is saying.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 3 2009 6:42 PM EDT

just for grins, here is a more realistic (non boe bug) evasion fightlist. my jiggy is the only one with evasion and it is an effective 115 evasion. since this wasn't about the boe, i thought it would be better to show someone very close to heroes mpr. ; )


Hal shot master pot [279956]
master pot's Guardian Angel smote Hal (153471)
Hal hit master pot [313703]
master pot's Guardian Angel smote Hal (172839)
Hal hit master pot [291627]
master pot's Guardian Angel smote Hal (158371)
Hal skewered master pot [385127]
master pot's Guardian Angel smote Hal (209286)
Hal cries "I can't let you do that, Dave!"
Wasp shot master kan with The Lunatic [410854]
master kan's Guardian Angel smote Wasp (223356)
Wasp hit master kan with The Lunatic [489786]
master kan's Guardian Angel smote Wasp (267571)
Wasp skewered master kan with The Lunatic [493126]
master kan's Guardian Angel smote Wasp (200263)
Wasp cries "Buzz, Buzz, Buzz!"
R.I.P. master pot, master kan

Hal shot kwai chang [474238]
kwai chang's Guardian Angel smote Hal (258090)
Hal hit kwai chang [471400]
kwai chang's Guardian Angel smote Hal (260688)
Hal struck deep into kwai chang [509218]
kwai chang's Guardian Angel smote Hal (174634)
Hal struck deep into kwai chang [369036]
Hal cries "I can't let you do that, Dave!"
Wasp's shot ricocheted near Kano-sang
R.I.P. kwai chang

Hal shot Kano-sang [534128]
Kano-sang's Guardian Angel smote Hal (291499)
Wasp shot Kano-sang with The Lunatic [942995]
Kano-sang's Guardian Angel smote Wasp (520626)

Hal hit Kano-sang [520744]
Kano-sang's Guardian Angel smote Hal (282843)
Hal hit Kano-sang [519555]
Kano-sang's Guardian Angel smote Hal (286019)
Wasp shot Kano-sang with The Lunatic [774509]
Kano-sang's Guardian Angel smote Wasp (420754)

Hal hit Kano-sang [447042]
Kano-sang's Guardian Angel smote Hal (243272)
Wasp hit Kano-sang with The Lunatic [966184]
Kano-sang's Guardian Angel smote Wasp (531898)

Hal struck deep into Kano-sang [505632]
Kano-sang's Guardian Angel smote Hal (105285)
Hal struck deep into Kano-sang [471893]
Hal cries "I can't let you do that, Dave!"
Wasp shot caine with The Lunatic [539091]
caine's Guardian Angel smote Wasp (296485)
Wasp shot caine with The Lunatic [706939]
caine's Guardian Angel smote Wasp (384388)
Wasp struck deep into caine with The Lunatic [472427]
caine's Guardian Angel smote Wasp (9978)
Wasp struck deep into caine with The Lunatic [634640]
Wasp cries "Buzz, Buzz, Buzz!"
R.I.P. Kano-sang, caine

had to change some names to get past the spell checker! ; (

AdminTitan May 3 2009 6:43 PM EDT

Looks good to me, no BoE, and you can tell evasion is doing its job.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 3 2009 6:54 PM EDT

"I did expect more from you."

/shrug

There is no debate here Ranger. Oh and get a larger Elbow.

Seriously, what do you want to debate. The vast majority of us agree on both the BoE being broken, and the XBow drains being broken. Suggestions for changing both have been offered and digested.

So what did you want to debate again? (My posts are only offering up anyother 'counter' to the XBow, as efficent as yours were to the 100% bth weapons. If you're dead, you deal as much damage as a Tank does with zero STR.)

Oh and the OP and title doesn't mention the BoE nor XBow drains either.

In reference to that, no Evasion isn't useless. It's great for Tanks to use with Dexterity to counter XBow Drains. Much better than suggesting a Mage uses it to counter ELbows.

QBRanger May 3 2009 6:58 PM EDT

GL,

All I was referring to is that mages could, if the really wanted to, train dexterity to stop the BTH.

I do not advocate it. But on an evasion minion, designed to be one, one can do just that. Train evasion and dexterity.

But let us see if the BoE gets fixed soon. And perhaps we can hope the exbow gets better balanced.

QBRanger May 3 2009 6:59 PM EDT

As with respect to the 100 BTH weapons, again, they are not 100 BTH for all rounds.

Averaged over the entire battle, they can be no more than 75 BTH.

Make the BTH stable over entire missile rounds and certainly I would advocate lowering the BTH to 70.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 3 2009 7:02 PM EDT

^they are 100 bth too much for me! ; )

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 3 2009 8:56 PM EDT

i have been questioning why i think 100 bth is too good.

one question i would like answered is why use any other melee weapon than a 100 bth one?

AdminTitan May 3 2009 9:11 PM EDT

B/c they do special abilities, and if there was a 100bth weapon, it would require a skill to get it to 100bth.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 3 2009 9:20 PM EDT

if the 100 bth's hit more often though then that will outweigh any special abilities i would think.

taking a play from the playbook of others here, why will we not become 100bth-blender.

it hits more often, up the hell out of the damage mod and just make sure you kill em off.

why use magic that can only hit once per round but is so much harder to bump using usd past a certain point?

lostling May 3 2009 9:26 PM EDT

its a simple matter of % damage reduction vs flat extra HP

not sure if this is accurate but...
100 846,713
assuming each hit does 500k damage and 5 hits
and assuming 6 rounds

100 gives 20% damage reduction of the overall damage

500k *5 *6 = 15mill damage
20% of that is 3mill damage(or 3mill HP)

in this case you can see adding 846,713 lvls into evasion is way more effective then adding that much HP

so the key is to balance... (work the numbers)

AdminTitan May 3 2009 9:30 PM EDT

Dudemus, as it has been stated the difference in to hit for the Elbow and SoD is only 40%, less for others. 40% against mages isn't very much, also, you don't need 1/5 of your ST in archery, which for me is about 1.8M levels. If I put that 1.8M in ST, it would give me over 2.5M more ST.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 3 2009 9:39 PM EDT

"Dudemus, as it has been stated the difference in to hit for the Elbow and SoD is only 40%, less for others"

right, which with evasion removing all pth and all else being equal is a difference of 10 hits out of 10 or 6 hits out of 10. which is a difference of 40 percent damage over ten hits. bloodlust can only boost by 30 percent if i am not mistaken.

if you have a dex advantage though and are on the threshold of multiple hits, then the difference could be even greater.

QBRanger May 3 2009 11:14 PM EDT

With the BoE fixed:

Hal shot Alive [350266]
Eat absorbs damage [350266]
Hal shot Alive [343952]
Eat absorbs damage [343952]
Wasp struck deep into Alive with The Lunatic [536303]
Eat absorbs damage [536303]
Wasp struck deep into Alive with The Lunatic [677088]
Eat absorbs damage [677088]

Eat regenerated 174,000 HP

Hal hit Alive [363944]
Eat absorbs damage [363944]
Hal skewered Alive [420804]
Eat absorbs damage [420804]
Wasp skewered Alive with The Lunatic [694928]
Eat absorbs damage [694928]
Wasp skewered Alive with The Lunatic [510793]
Eat absorbs damage [510793]

Eat regenerated 174,000 HP

Hal shot Alive [392192]
Eat absorbs damage [392192]
Hal struck deep into Alive [463732]
Eat absorbs damage [463732]
Hal hit Alive [347871]
Eat absorbs damage [347871]
Wasp struck deep into Alive with The Lunatic [733187]
Eat absorbs damage [733187]
Wasp struck deep into Alive with The Lunatic [585724]
Eat absorbs damage [585724]
Wasp skewered Alive with The Lunatic [661095]
Eat absorbs damage [413604]

Eat regenerated 174,000 HP

Hal struck deep into Alive [440540]
Hal skewered Alive [419022]
Hal struck deep into Alive [303208]
Hal cries "I can't let you do that, Dave!"
Wasp shot Little Anthony with The Lunatic [1149812]
Eat absorbs damage [191571]
Wasp shot Little Anthony with The Lunatic [1051017]
Wasp shot Little Anthony with The Lunatic [952244]
Wasp hit Little Anthony with The Lunatic [1050294]

Eat regenerated 174,000 HP
R.I.P. Alive

Hal hit Little Anthony [628515]
Eat absorbs damage [193347]
Hal shot Little Anthony [474716]
Hal shot Little Anthony [587233]
Hal skewered Little Anthony [530109]
Hal struck deep into Little Anthony [502500]
Hal cries "I can't let you do that, Dave!"
Wasp skewered Omg! with The Lunatic [1157194]
Wasp struck deep into Omg! with The Lunatic [853029]
Wasp struck deep into Omg! with The Lunatic [1177949]
Wasp cries "Buzz, Buzz, Buzz!"

Eat regenerated 174,000 HP
R.I.P. Omg!, Little Anthony

Hal struck deep into Eat [562896]
Hal struck deep into Eat [398571]
Hal struck deep into Eat [496100]
Hal skewered Eat [437821]
Hal struck deep into Eat [422547]
Hal cries "I can't let you do that, Dave!"
Wasp skewered Eat with The Lunatic [838720]
Wasp skewered Eat with The Lunatic [722969]
Wasp struck deep into Eat with The Lunatic [781738]
Wasp struck deep into Eat with The Lunatic [1051804]
Wasp skewered Eat with The Lunatic [1088838]
Wasp cries "Buzz, Buzz, Buzz!"

Eat regenerated 174,000 HP
R.I.P. Eat

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 3 2009 11:18 PM EDT

That Hal having more PTH than your tank is amazing.

QBRanger May 3 2009 11:20 PM EDT

Yes, I do personally think for an 8M tattoo it is very powerful, dare I say, overpowered.

Yes, I think I will agree it is.

The dexterity is not a problem, however, that is quite a lot of PTH.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002k48">For those thinking evasion is useless now:</a>