SG should get a boost/better effect (in General)


Untouchable May 9 2009 8:47 PM EDT

idk +2% per AC? Splash effect? something?



i mean come on wouldnt it make sense? :p
its total damage is weaker than all the other DDs (except FB? but who cares about FB) making it useless?

QBRanger May 9 2009 8:57 PM EDT

Little Anthony touches Sheep [2165604]

vs a 98 AC minion using AP.

Yea, it really sucks.

Untouchable May 9 2009 8:59 PM EDT

don't you think MM or CC wouldve have given Little Anthony more total damage?

QBRanger May 9 2009 9:00 PM EDT

Little Anthony touches Sheep [3011999]

Ouch Mommy, it hurts.

I do not think over 3 or 4 more rounds of that MM or CoC would do more damage.

MissingNo [Battle Royale] May 9 2009 9:01 PM EDT

I'm gonna go ahead and say no, because I believe SG is the most powerful DD in the game. And wasn't it like 2% to begin with? And it got reduced cause it was so overpowered.

Untouchable May 9 2009 9:02 PM EDT

well, for MM dont forget all the range rounds it gets.

and ive noticed during Melee rounds MM is only about 15% weaker.

AdminNightStrike May 9 2009 9:03 PM EDT

The lifespan of AC was extended by quite a bit. It'll be a year or two before we see decent AC's across the board again. As time goes on and NW/ENC/CBD/etc allows for bigger armor, SG will steadily increase in potency.

Until then, it's still a very powerful spell.

Untouchable May 9 2009 9:04 PM EDT

i believe that people who use SG right now are better off with MM/CoC

AdminNightStrike May 9 2009 9:07 PM EDT

(Just to clarify, I'm not saying that SG deals more damage if your AC is higher, but rather that it is more effective against high AC opponents than other DD because of the 1% per base AC boost.)

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 9 2009 9:22 PM EDT

SG vs Wall = utter pawnage
I changed mine to MM on the basis that a lot of my fights never made it to the melee rounds. Otherwise i would DEFINITELY have kept it as it was.

QBRanger May 9 2009 9:29 PM EDT

Yes,

That is the underlying problem.

With the MgS nerf, and the AC nerf, it seems to be harder to get into and last into melee rounds to get SG useful.

Add in the powerful DM, nuking AS and battle are shorter than they should be.

Rawr May 10 2009 3:05 AM EDT

"i believe that people who use SG right now are better off with MM/CoC"

Statements you make are so broad and general. Think before you post criticisms about spells and the game.

SG is very strong, and can deal the most damage out of any DD, depending on the circumstance. FB hits very poorly, that much is true. MM is easily countered with an MgS and its ranged rounds hits very poorly due to ranged damage penalties. Yes, CoC's total damage hits harder than SG in most occasions. However, its damage is spread out, so it is much more susceptible to GA. SG's damage is focused on one minion, so in theory it has better chances of breaking the GA cap (many have complained of GA's break cap being too big, but that is a different argument).

Little Anthony May 10 2009 3:08 AM EDT

i got 4mil hit on NWO before. Moderate AC :D

Lord Bob May 10 2009 3:10 AM EDT

"SG should get a boost/better effect"

Gods on Olympus, no.

If anything, it needs a nerf vs. low AC.

QBJohnnywas May 10 2009 3:52 AM EDT

Was this a drunken Saturday night post? Good god, SG needs no help.

"its total damage is weaker than all the other DDs (except FB? but who cares about FB) making it useless? "

Could that be because it kills quicker because is IS SO STRONG therefore it doesn't have time to build up it's total damage?

Little Anthony May 10 2009 3:58 AM EDT

against Titania:

Little Anthony touches Green Lantern [4613954]

Owned!

Rawr May 10 2009 4:33 AM EDT

Temari's Magic Missile hit Order [275288]

Thats against a no-AMF team first round. The following rounds hit harder, but not by much.

Wasp [Demon Forging] May 10 2009 4:35 AM EDT

I think SG is fine the way it is. It's pretty well balanced if you ask me. No ranged attack, forward facing etc. If any of the spells are in need of a change it's most definately fireball. Splash damage has got to be the most stupid idea ever. It can't kill in ranged anymore either, so in almost all cases you're better of training CoC.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 10 2009 5:11 AM EDT

MM Sucks.

Seriously. I'm sure Losting made some posts ages ago on the damage each DD does per level trained, if you can't find that, it's not too hard to work out.

MM does the lowest damage of all the DDs, SG the top. While also being the best versus AMF backlash, as the increased damage from Armour isn't factored into the AMF backlash at all.

So no, SG needs no help.

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] May 10 2009 6:09 AM EDT

magic damage info

Cube May 10 2009 6:15 AM EDT

Lostling's post on magic damage

Cube May 10 2009 6:15 AM EDT

Oops, guess I'm way too slow

Ancient Anubis May 10 2009 9:19 AM EDT

4.6mil for a hit from LA SG which is the highest in the game at 8mil trained. My MM is the highest in the game at 8.25mil levels and my ranged damage averages 800k and my max hit in melee has never surpassed 2.4mil from what i have seen. I think SG is pretty good as it is.

QBRanger May 10 2009 9:25 AM EDT

And there you have it.

MM does more if you add up all damage for the first 7 or 8 rounds.

After which SG does a lot more, especially if vs armored opponents.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 10 2009 10:38 AM EDT

Just look at Lostings Graph in the thread linked. MM is rubbish. It's only use is the strategic hitting from the rear.

If you reach Melee rounds, SG hitting no armour does better. If you don't hit Melee, train FB.

SG hitting Armoured targets does the most DD damage in the game. Without an increased AMF backlash.

It doesn't need any help.

Demigod May 10 2009 10:42 AM EDT

So then should this be an argument to improve MM?

QBRanger May 10 2009 11:03 AM EDT

If MM is that bad, why do 2 of the top characters use it?

Far more than SG or CoC which should do far more damage.

If you really want to chat rubbish, look at FB. It does pathetic damage and once you get to melee rounds, you toast your own party. Making GA very difficult to use.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] May 10 2009 11:23 AM EDT

If MM is that bad, why do 2 of the top characters use it?

Damage wise its pretty pathetic, its really all about strategy. Magic missle by itself cannot stand.

Thak May 10 2009 11:29 AM EDT

This is comparing apples and oranges IMO.

SG is designed for mages to be able to deal with AC better.
Now if you want to make a comparison on what EF does in comparison to training SG that would make a little more solid of a argument.

Rawr May 10 2009 11:42 AM EDT

"If MM is that bad, why do 2 of the top characters use it?"

Well I think novice has told you that he is using it only to make use of his massive NSC's.

And through that logic, The Hens of Daze is using ToE and he is a top character. This does not mean ToE's are fine where they are.

QBRanger May 10 2009 11:47 AM EDT

Novice can use a EF, IF or FF to make use of the NSC he has.

He was stating why he was not using a HF.

Of all the DD familiars out there, he chose the SF.

Freed is the only 1 using a ToE, while there are 3-4 who use the SF, 3 who use the RBF and 3 who use the Ros.

Typically yes, those who use MM do not have it as their only attack. But others in CB have stated, almost to a certainty that Jon wants multiple types of attacks.

Bast has MM and a JKF along with GA.
Novice has a tank x2 and a SF.
NWO has a SF, a MM mage and large AS/GA.
Rawr has RoS with its GA/AS and MM.

So is this not what Jon wanted?

QBJohnnywas May 10 2009 11:51 AM EDT

I think one of the bigger reasons for all the MMs around the top twenty is the presence of the quick kill archers and HALs. No point having all the damage of a CoC or SG if you can't get to use it because your opponent is doing all their damage in the first five or six rounds.

QBRanger May 10 2009 11:59 AM EDT

There are 5 HF or archers in the top 25 scores.

Hardly a large proportion, but I see your point.

I do believe that the HF is a bit overpowered compared to other familiars of its level.

However archery/ELB/MSB is not due to the sheer NW and xp needed into archery.

I have been trying to get a SF to test things out. But this stupid tattoo artist thing is making for real stagnation everywhere.

QBJohnnywas May 10 2009 12:13 PM EDT

Strat against strat archer/hal is SG's weakness. It's just too difficult to keep a damage dealer alive until melee, when somebody is chipping away at you with a bow.

QBOddBird May 10 2009 12:34 PM EDT

It's because MM is the only ranged DD.

FB is just suicide, it doesn't count.

QBRanger May 10 2009 2:03 PM EDT

Something we do not see a lot near the top ranks is EC.

It is way underpowered for all the xp needed.

That may also help mages survive to melee.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 10 2009 2:10 PM EDT

I personally think EC is alright where it is now. EC is extremely effective against JKF and HAL because it is hard to increase a familiars str by very much, especially JKF who trains only 25% str. Against a regular tank it is good at taking out a tanks dex. If you are a tank it is good to gain the dex advantage. This will give you extra hits and reduce theirs by quite a lot.

Solare May 10 2009 2:33 PM EDT

"If you really want to chat rubbish, look at FB. It does pathetic damage and once you get to melee rounds, you toast your own party. Making GA very difficult to use."

FB has needed fixing for a VERY long time now.

On another note:
MM is simply ok, and personally I think with the strategic advantage it gives, its probably fine where it is.
SG needs no help and never did, there are few counters for its extreme power. Because it focus's fire on a single opponent, and has no weakness to AC, it doesn't suffer the same weakness's as CoC.
CoC is, arguably, underpowered; its damage is great and fine where it is, but there are too many ways (even with a high HP minion and a decent ToE with plenty of magic resistance) to kill quick in ranged, thus making it somewhat useless. It does provide a good way to take care of kill slots within a team, however.

Just thought I'd add my two cents...
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