evasion stacking with the new junction (in General)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 12 2009 4:15 PM EDT

i am trying to figure out how this works exactly. in effect, is it like what ns told me bloodlust should be which is the effect is junctioned over?

my jiggy has 115 evasion if i take my aoj off.

my trained evasion looks like this:

Evasion 885,994 594,627 101 86

however in post battle stats kwai change shows 82 evasion effect and the jiggy shows 197, which would just be the 82 + 115.

why is the evasion on my minion only showing up as 82 though?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] May 12 2009 4:21 PM EDT

So you believe the effect stacks, not the trained levels giving a new effect? and would that take into account the +9 Aoj now?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 12 2009 4:22 PM EDT

my aoj is named, should be full effect.

is the 82 effect due to the fact that i don't have dex trained and thus am getting that penalty or where does that show?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] May 12 2009 4:24 PM EDT

It would show in post battle stats when you don't have enough dex to cover the evasion.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 12 2009 4:26 PM EDT

does it just show as a smaller evasion number than trained, because that is what i am seeing?

QBRanger May 12 2009 4:27 PM EDT

1) Any ENC load on the enchanter?

2) If the 115 and 101 evasion stack up near linearly, that is indeed quite powerful. And if it is the intended effect, wow, just wow.

3) If you have ENC overload and your minion has 82 evasion due to it, the trained evasion effect and the jiggy's evasion are indeed added up. WoW, just wow.

QBRanger May 12 2009 4:28 PM EDT

If not, it must be as Draco states, a 40% penalty due to no dexterity trained.

Then the full evasion of the JKF is getting added.

That is very powerful indeed.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 12 2009 4:29 PM EDT

i would need 5m more nw to be encumbered, that isn't it.

i guess i just need to go through the xp levels and see if i am wrong and effect doesn't stack.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 12 2009 4:31 PM EDT

NS already fixed the JKF + UC Junction issue, I don't think it'll be long till this is solved as well.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] May 12 2009 4:32 PM EDT

Hmm... a little math

Evasion greater than your Dexterity is only 60% as effective.

885,994 for 101 evasion @ 60% for not having matching dex = 531,596 = 82 for new effect

1.2mil (est.) for 115 evasion

The twop effects are added after junction for the total

QBRanger May 12 2009 4:33 PM EDT

I believe it is the penalty of no dex.

60% of 885,994 is about 531k. Which is likely the 82 evasion effect you see.

As 594k is 86, this is likely true.

So then your 115 from the JKF gets directly added to that level and viola! you have your 197 supersized effect.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 12 2009 4:36 PM EDT

jig has 1,176,666 or so xp in evasion, as per the table in wiki this is about 114 to 115, which is correct as he shows 115 in post without the aoj.

if my xp from my evasion is added, that would be: 1,176,666 + 886,062 = 2.062.728 which in the table shows an evasion effect of about 144.

closer to effect than it is to xp stacking!

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] May 12 2009 4:38 PM EDT

yes, the effect is changed due to your minion not having the dex to cover the evasion, yet it is still added directly to the effect of the jig I.E. 82 + 115... so if your minion had the dex to cover the 101 effect of the evasion it would carry over and give you 216 total.

Little Anthony May 12 2009 4:40 PM EDT

jig has dex

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] May 12 2009 4:41 PM EDT

Yes jig has dex, but the minion junctioning the evasion over does not. So they are both taken separately and dex part figured out then they are added together.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 12 2009 4:45 PM EDT

i guess i have to take back the thread i created entitle "pth>evasion" at least in regards to the jiggy. it would be hard for a team to devote the xp for evasion to keep up but with the jiggy's innate and trained on minion it can be done.

is this the boost to jiggy's that we have been waiting for? if so i like that he could be a melee buster if enough xp is spent. i had kinda hoped he would get stronger overall though.

QBRanger May 12 2009 4:51 PM EDT

Well, given enough xp in evasion, on a minion junctioning a JKF, we may be back to the old evasion rules everything game. Right now how many people actually hit your JKF in ranged? Aside from me and Vectoidz. And I hit only 33% of the time with my archer.

Stock up on the AMF for magic, use a MgS on the JKF minion, and GA is the only real counter.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 12 2009 4:56 PM EDT

wouldn't dex advantage always give guaranteed hits though with these 100 bth items? the old evasion was too powerful with just it trained.

i have dex advantage, ec and two evasions going to get where i am and i am not even sure yet if it will allow me to fight up any more than i was earlier today.

QBRanger May 12 2009 5:01 PM EDT

Well the JKF has more dex than any tank and likely any HF.

Add EB and EG and they certainly have the advantage.

Add the evasion like it is and we do have a nice missile counter.

So now can we get the exbow nerfed as we certainly do have an elb counter???

But is it right that the evasion effects add up, as this is the first time in CB that effects add directly to spells/skills. For stats, they have added linearly forever.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 12 2009 5:03 PM EDT

be patient... NS already fixed this for UC + UC stacking.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 12 2009 5:06 PM EDT

i do think it is intended. i specifically asked ns when we were going over bugs together if in regards to bloodlust if i need to train base because that would give me the whole effect on the minion or if i need to go higher due to the higher strength on my jiggy. his answer was that the effect was junctioned over.

if by right you mean balanced. pth had nothing able to really keep up with it until now, so in that sense it is balanced.

i may be able to dodge ns's specialty crossbow better now that you bring those up! ; )

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 12 2009 5:08 PM EDT

the uc was different though. it was adding item uc bonus twice, once on minion and then that would be carried over with the effect. then it was added to the familiar.

QBRanger May 12 2009 5:14 PM EDT

It is a foil for PTH, however PTH cannot catch up at this level to xp.

Just train another 500k levels on your minion and with the natural growth of the JKF, you will hit over 240 evasion.

Only by spending a lot of money can one keep up.

I thought there was a reason that DBs did not stack linearly, I would think this should have been true for evasion. However this is only an assumption by me.

If this is intended, just wow.

Beware the new speciality strat to fight up as high as possible, evasion minion with junctioned AoJ. Will be bad vs magic, but with a 100% CB for a while, it is not too bad.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 12 2009 5:14 PM EDT

For your minion, it's the no Dex penalty.

The way Evasion should work now, is post minion calcultation level is transfered over, then added to the Jigs post calculation levels, then turned into an effect.

Your post Dex Evasion of 82 gives you about 517K Evasion.

Your Jigs natural Evasion from UC (which I belive would be increased by your Junctioned EBs prior to the stacking, but for now we'll use the none Junction level) of 115 which is about 1,200,000 (or a Trained UC of 3,600,000 Making your Jig around 7.2 Mil - Can't remember your tatt's size off hand mate!).

After Junction, it should have about 1,717,000 or thereabouts, which is 132 effect.

It def looks like Evasion is still going over as Effect + Effect. :/

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 12 2009 5:21 PM EDT

how does the uc work gl, is it not effect plus effect?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 12 2009 5:24 PM EDT

gl likely knows best in this case. he worked with ns more on getting uc going correctly.

i am still excited as it will take more xp but evasion, at least on the jiggy, has a chance to rival pth.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 12 2009 5:24 PM EDT

It shouldn't be, but that was changed after I tested it, Nem will have to corroberate here.

Last I knew, UC was changed to level junction to level, to make a new effect, to stop the HG effecting both.

Unless I'm jumping the gun, and that's the desired change. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 12 2009 5:26 PM EDT

"Previously, the HG would be applied to the minion to boost the effect, and then that new effect would be added to the JKF's effect for a new total effect. Now, the raw trained level is what transfers, and the HG applies once on the JKF instead of twice. Elven gear is still a problem."

Level to Level it is. ;)

I'd assumed it worked that was for all skills. Maybe it's not. If a base BL still junctions over at max effect from a 20 STR minion, I guess it isn't. ;)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 12 2009 5:30 PM EDT

i pm'd ns as well as beat him twice in a row (i could not do that consistently before) so if that doesn't get his attention then i know not what will.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 12 2009 5:33 PM EDT


AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 13 2009 1:51 PM EDT

I believe that BL junctions over as a level amount now as well as UC. Evasion is still done completely differently though. The evasion innate on JKF cannot be effected by any gear and the effect of the minion is directly added to the evasion to get the total effect.

NS said that he was planning to fix this but it would require more work than fixed UC did. But he also thought about changing how it junctions completely so we will see what actually happens. I do know that you should not expect the evasion effect adding to stay.

QBRanger May 13 2009 2:01 PM EDT

Even if it is not fixed, it is a great foil right now for missile ranged attacks.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 13 2009 2:06 PM EDT

Even if it is fixed it will remain a good foil vs ranged attacks. I can limit most ToA tanks quite a bit larger than me to generally 1 hit a round during ranged.

AdminShade May 13 2009 2:15 PM EDT

why is the evasion on my minion only showing up as 82 though?

You do not have DX.

AdminShade May 13 2009 2:17 PM EDT

My character

Dexterity 100 114
Evasion 1,270,000 1,000,000 117 106

Total Evasion 95

You get a penalty to the level of your Evasion making it a new effect.

Your Junctioned Familiar doesn't have this issue ;)

QBRanger May 13 2009 3:07 PM EDT


We figured that one out a long time ago earlier in the thread.

C'mon man, get with the program :)

QBRanger May 13 2009 3:08 PM EDT

The "problem" now is that the evasion on the minion directly adds to the level on the JKF.

Linearly, not via xp method.

So even 100k levels in evasion giving a 30-40 effect will directly add to that on the JKF.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] May 13 2009 3:15 PM EDT

I don't see that as a problem since every skill is added as effect and not as exp.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 13 2009 3:16 PM EDT

But, it's not that way Henk ...

QBRanger May 13 2009 3:21 PM EDT

Care to backup that statement with just 1 fact Henk?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 13 2009 3:22 PM EDT

i agree that it will still be an effective foil. it will just take longer before the whining starts! ; )

Cube May 13 2009 3:38 PM EDT

Henk, stop making stuff up.

AdminShade May 14 2009 1:29 AM EDT

Ranger: ahh I got it :p

however in post battle stats kwai change shows 82 evasion effect and the jiggy shows 197, which would just be the 82 + 115

Isn't this one of the things NightStrike couldn't yet fix?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] May 14 2009 5:14 AM EDT

why it adds as an effect and not as EXP to a tattoo:

for one, if you add exp to a tattoo it also gains levels which it clearly doesn't.

Secondly evasion is the real easy one there, like shade said the trained effect on the minion is xferred to the tattoo and not the exp, otherwise its exp on exp which result in different evasion lvls for the tattoo.

Secondly, if BL worked for the jig, then that tattoo would have 2 skills, yet the exp is only in UC. Thus the exp from BL is not xferred, just the effect.

QBJohnnywas May 14 2009 5:34 AM EDT

The UC on a Gi is added to a char's UC in the same way that Henk is describing. So there is precedent in the game for this. Just not quite to this scale.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 14 2009 6:12 AM EDT

Having two (or more) skills is fine. Everyone with UC already has. ;)

You have your UC level, then you have an Evasion level equal to 1/3 your UC.

It's easy to check this. Train a base UC, then increase your level by a little. You're UC stays at (0) as you need something like 9,000 to get to (1), but your Evasion will start to increase.

You can confirm this in the Post Battle stats. Your Evasion will grow, while your UC Weapon will remain the same.

CB can cope with you having XP in more than one skill at a time. ;)

QBJohnnywas May 14 2009 6:16 AM EDT

So can we keep it? Please. UC and Mr Jig getting a boost is a good thing. Keep it this way. Thanks.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 14 2009 7:45 AM EDT

Level to Level Evasion? Nah, that's got to go mate. ;)

It's like Junctioning over a pair of DB that actually stacks.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 14 2009 8:20 AM EDT

evasion needs to stack correctly, xp to xp then effect determined. however, the minion not having dex shouldn't effect the amount to xp going over to the familiar and he should get the full trained xp added to his existing evasion xp.

uc will still need a boost at the end of it all though. i think i would rather see a damage boost for uc. that would help against all opponents. the extra evasion is nice, but if desired you can still get to the level to keep up with pth and with ec/dex advantage can knock out most bth.

it will be better in the long run to have some other uc boost in my opinion.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 14 2009 8:21 AM EDT

I agree with dudemus.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 14 2009 9:22 AM EDT

"i think i would rather see a damage boost for uc"

Make it linear damage.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 14 2009 9:27 AM EDT

excellent idea gl, that would make it more able to keep up with weapons linear damage growth capabilities!

QBRanger May 14 2009 9:39 AM EDT

There is a way to increase the JKFs damage. Use BL instead of evasion.

You will get another 75% more damage and the first hit does 2x damage.

I get hit by your Jiggy 4-5 times a round not using DB or evasion. Each hit is about 300k damage. That is not too bad.

Use BL and it will do 500k+ a hit.

For general UC, that cannot use BL, I cannot state as I have no experience with it.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 14 2009 9:47 AM EDT

i was speaking about uc in general. you cannot increase uc with bloodlust.

i think it is the base uc skill that is weak, not just the jiggy. how would you boost uc ranger, if you can agree it is in need?

QBRanger May 14 2009 10:27 AM EDT

Ah, UC in general.

Not knowing exactly what weapon base it is upon, the only real solution would be to either:

1) Increase the base damage
2) Give it a special ability. Such as vorpalness.

I think a bit ago someone proposed a list of special abilities UC could get.

IE at level 100, vorpalness
level 150 Leech as in the MH
level 200 AC bonus
etc ..

Right now things are a bit skewed as the JKF uses UC and can get a very high boosted evasion.

I would want the evasion thing fixed first, then raise UC's damage or give it the special abilities.

Right now, using a +200 Bone, I cannot hit your JKF in melee combat. Well 1 in 10 rounds I can. With 4.2M dexterity.

Right now it is not the perfect anti HF, it is the perfect anti tank weapon. I think we are close to how evasion was before with the JKF.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 14 2009 10:46 AM EDT

The major problem with UC damage is that it's based off of UC effect (Like it's PTH). Which as it isn't linear, means UC damage is the only type in the game that does increase linearly.

UC damage needs to be divorced from it's PTH, so the PTH can remain non linear, while the 'x' is made linear and based off of the UC level, like DD.

Added effects would be wicked, letting UC customise itself like the choice of using a VB or Morg.

If these changes were to be made, the PTH of UC would probably have to be reduced. It gets (IIRC) the best PTH out of most things in the game.

It falls down on its non linear damage though. While Great on a starting character (as you can super boost your Wepaon with HG and Gi) its scaling can't compete with either Weapons or DD, as they are linear per point spent.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] May 14 2009 11:21 AM EDT

"Right now it is not the perfect anti HF, it is the perfect anti tank weapon. I think we are close to how evasion was before with the JKF."

No actually if you trained evasion normally its how evasion should work.

However the effect on effect stacking is a bit much.

QBRanger May 14 2009 11:22 AM EDT

Yes, without the stacking linearly method, it is a very nice antitank familiar, agreed.

QBRanger May 14 2009 1:53 PM EDT

Hal undershot Kano-san
Dog's shot flew past Kano-san

Hal overshot Kano-san
Dog's shot ricocheted near Kano-san

Hal undershot Kano-san
Dog's shot flew past Kano-san

In rounds 3-5 in missile now.

Round 6 my HF hit 1 time, my tank missed.

HF has a +252 and my tank +227.

QBRanger May 14 2009 1:54 PM EDT

And +28 BoF's on my first minion for another +14 PTH.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 14 2009 1:58 PM EDT

so, after my ec your dex on the tank is about 1.75m and my post battle dex is almost 6.2m.

i now have a stacked effect of 199 evasion.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 14 2009 1:59 PM EDT

if i am figuring correctly, i think i should actually have about a 145 to 150 stacked evasion effect.

QBRanger May 14 2009 2:00 PM EDT

And if via the xp method, your evasion should be about? 144?

Then people can have a chance to hit. 1 time a round.

Now it seems most all tanks whiff.

Just figure out how to solve the DD people and your golden.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 14 2009 2:30 PM EDT

i threw a mage shield on my ec minion, at ranger's request, to nullify ec and see how powerful the evasion is alone. he went back to being able to kill me in ranged though, so unless he takes off his bow i cannot really post any melee hits.

this does, in my mind, prove that the bugged evasion stacking alone wouldn't be enough to be abusive without my ec giving me over 300 percent dex advantage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 14 2009 3:15 PM EDT

I would be interesting to see how different (if at all) it would be if you dropped EC for Haste.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 14 2009 3:21 PM EDT

EC will be more effective. The higher both stats get the more effective it becomes to reduce the other person's in order to get the advantage.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 14 2009 3:22 PM EDT

yeah, when i thought up this team though, i wanted as to be my only dm prone enchantment. if we ever had another free retrain period, that is one of the things i would like to check out.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 14 2009 3:26 PM EDT

i am taking the mgs off, but will have it for a week, so if anyone else wants to test hitting me with no ec and just the evasion, just pm me.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 14 2009 4:12 PM EDT

How is EC more effective Nem (if we don't include the vulnerability to DM)?

If we're only looking at Dex gaps, EC provides -50% (of XP trained) to your opponent, while Haste Provides +68% to you.

Wouldn't Haste provide a larger Dex gap than EC?

QBRanger May 14 2009 4:23 PM EDT

Haste certainly would provide more of a dexterity gap-if it casts.

There are a lot of high level DMs near the top, some over 10M in size.

EC is guaranteed to cast. It also lowers strength. And while that is not a huge effect, it does stop those mini-tanks and does lower damage from other tanks. 10-20% perhaps does not hurt.

Using Haste, without a RoS, is fools gold.

QBRanger May 18 2009 4:37 PM EDT

Bump-Please fix me.

AdminNightStrike May 18 2009 4:38 PM EDT

I just did a few minutes ago. Please check.,

AdminNightStrike May 18 2009 4:38 PM EDT

To be clear, what I fixed was Evasion stacking by effect instead of level.

QBRanger May 18 2009 4:39 PM EDT

I would need someone like Dudemus to check this out. See if the evasion on his Jig is still 195ish or 145ish.

But many many thanks for fixing the bugs you already have.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 18 2009 4:40 PM EDT

no stacking going on at all atm. my minion has his 83 and jiggy only has 116, which is what he has with no aoj on the minion.

QBRanger May 18 2009 4:41 PM EDT

So there is no bonus to the evasion on the Jiggy now?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 18 2009 4:43 PM EDT

correct, evasion isn't junctioning at all atm.

three4thsforsaken May 18 2009 4:52 PM EDT

my familiar has lost evasion all together.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 18 2009 4:53 PM EDT

yeah, mine only has it because the jiggy gets inherent evasion...none is junctioning right now though...ns is working on it though!

AdminNightStrike May 18 2009 5:10 PM EDT

Try now

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 18 2009 5:13 PM EDT

153 now, which is likely right with the growth since i last figured it...woot!

QBRanger May 18 2009 5:17 PM EDT

Another outstanding job by NS.


{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 18 2009 5:37 PM EDT

I agree, Kudos and cheers to NS!

AdminNightStrike May 18 2009 5:50 PM EDT

Thanks :)

QBOddBird May 18 2009 6:07 PM EDT

indeed, cheers to NS! We're seeing bug fixes in real time! :D

AdminNightStrike May 20 2009 2:18 AM EDT

Almost real time. I do have a real work to do sometimes :)
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