AoJ junctioned evasion stacks properly (in Changelog)

AdminNightStrike May 18 2009 5:22 PM EDT

Previously, the AOJ would junction evasion by adding the effects. As with everything else in CB, addition goes by level.

This has been rectified.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] May 18 2009 5:25 PM EDT


Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 18 2009 5:26 PM EDT

definitely 3 cheer worthy!

QBJohnnywas May 18 2009 5:39 PM EDT

Yup. Three Cheers!!!

FailBoat[SG] [Forever Alone] May 18 2009 5:46 PM EDT

So, what does this change mean? Jiggys are now worthwhile?

AdminNightStrike May 18 2009 5:49 PM EDT

Well, this is kind of a nerf to the jkf (that is, if a bug fix can be considered a buff/nerf). However, it's still much better after a slew of fixes.

QBRanger May 18 2009 6:06 PM EDT


Jiggies are still worthwhile.

I just wish they had their endurance back.

three4thsforsaken May 18 2009 6:16 PM EDT


Then we'll actually have a viable defensive familiar!

three4thsforsaken May 18 2009 6:35 PM EDT

wait, neither my main minion or my familiar have any dex, but my main minion has 129 Evasion and my familiar has 58 effect.


DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] May 18 2009 6:41 PM EDT

The evasion transferring over to familiar is broken, and I also had a question about the -1 ac I get from innate armor, but thats for another post.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 18 2009 6:43 PM EDT

Same here, what was 208 evasion is now 46...

most of that is +185 dbs

AdminNightStrike May 18 2009 6:44 PM EDT

Well, the AC is easy.. you have a HOC and Tshirt, so -4.

The evasion seems to still be broken with DD familiars, as opposed to JKF.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 18 2009 6:50 PM EDT

NS, shouldn't Junction have set the -4 AC to zero on the Familiar?

AdminNightStrike May 18 2009 7:00 PM EDT

It's the same thing.. negative AC doesn't make you gain damage or anything.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 18 2009 11:04 PM EDT

At least for me evasion from UC is not junctioning over at all. I have the same Evasion as I have with no AoJ.

kevlar May 18 2009 11:10 PM EDT

Trying to fix? Something is definitely worse now.. prior the evasion was the same between my familiar and the Minion with the equipped AoJ, 167 ----- 167 now it's 75 ------ 167 (first number is the familiar, second is the one with trained evasion).

The only thing I have done was name the AoJ a couple days ago. So is Evasion being worked on, or is there something wrong after you name the AoJ to get the full +10% now?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 18 2009 11:10 PM EDT

The reason for this would be that The innate evasion on the JKF is not modified by anything. If the evasion from real evasion is transferring over properly the the best way to fix this would be to have his evasion work off of the modified UC.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 19 2009 12:22 AM EDT

Night didn't have time to finish fixing evasion... things are kinda broken at the moment

AdminNightStrike May 19 2009 1:37 AM EDT

Thanks, novice.

To clarify at least one point, kevlar, junction is still hardwired everywhere as on or off.

AdminNightStrike May 19 2009 2:32 AM EDT

I have a better fix ready, just need testing.

kevlar May 19 2009 3:19 AM EDT

Sorry, didn't know you didn't have time and thnx Nov. for letting us know. Well it is better now, just one point shy of what it used to be.
Total Evasion 166 ----- 167
Thanks for taking the time with the changes, NS.

AdminNightStrike May 19 2009 3:36 AM EDT

The off by one thing should go away with the next server restart.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 19 2009 5:26 AM EDT

Ok, it now looks like my minion's evasion is overwriting my JKF's evasion again, only this time as a level so the minion's UC is 86 and JKF has 107.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 19 2009 5:49 AM EDT

Taking a few more looks at it, it does look like it is adding the evasion of the minion post dex penalties over to the JKF by level and adding those together.

On that note, can we get a good bug fix for the JKF for once? The evasion innate on the JKF never gets modified by changes to it's UC. On regular UC the evasion is based on the modified level of UC as Opposed to the base level only like on the JKF. One of these should be changed so that they are working the same way.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 19 2009 8:06 AM EDT

my evasion dropped overnight as well. it does not seem to be adding the right amount to my jiggy at this time.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 19 2009 8:20 AM EDT

it does seem like nem is right and that the minions post dex penalty evasion is being added to the jiggy instead of the full evasion.

as for the other issue, it was explained to me that the jiggy would only get evasion increases from items that increase the uc skill directly (helm's). is it true that on a uc minion the elven gear will increase evasion then? if that is the case then jiggy should get that benefit as well i would think!

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 19 2009 9:06 AM EDT

if it is changed so that evasion works off of the modified uc level of the jiggy, then the junctioned familiars evasion when added to the jiggy would need to be its base level to prevent double dipping from elven gears though.

Cube May 19 2009 9:31 AM EDT

Can anyone check if junctioning evasion to the Hal is messing with Archery?

Soul Eater May 19 2009 9:48 AM EDT

Arcbery Junction is still broken I believe.

AdminNightStrike May 19 2009 10:39 AM EDT

Did I say I fixed Archery?

QBRanger May 19 2009 10:52 AM EDT

Uh, no.

AdminNightStrike May 19 2009 12:03 PM EDT

Junction with UC should recalculate evasion now after UC is junctioned.

Here's the basic timeline:

Spawn the familiar
give it intrinsics
give it UC
give it evasion based on that UC

test for junction
[do a lot of other stuff]
if the minion has %-boosting gear, boost UC from that
ditto, + gear
ditto, trained UC
recalculate innate evasion from new UC

if the minion has evasion, junction that over **by level**

[do a lot more stuff]

AdminNightStrike May 19 2009 12:39 PM EDT

That was an impromptu way of asking people to test their results now.......

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 19 2009 1:33 PM EDT

Ok, UC just seriously broke again. I have 459 pth whereas it should be more like 250 or so. Evasion went up to 163 which is pretty close to where it should be but I think it is a little high.

three4thsforsaken May 19 2009 1:36 PM EDT

Hehe, fun.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 19 2009 1:54 PM EDT

my evasion is still broken. only getting 123, my inherent jiggy is 116.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 19 2009 1:57 PM EDT

if i figured correctly, my post elven junctioned inherent evasion should be 178 or thereabouts before any skill junctioning takes place. i will have to calculate again what my final should be now though.

Colonel Custard May 19 2009 2:10 PM EDT

"it was explained to me that the jiggy would only get evasion increases from items that increase the uc skill directly (helm's). is it true that on a uc minion the elven gear will increase evasion then? if that is the case then jiggy should get that benefit as well i would think!

if it is changed so that evasion works off of the modified uc level of the jiggy, then the junctioned familiars evasion when added to the jiggy would need to be its base level to prevent double dipping from elven gears though."

Yes, Elven gears increase Evasion on UC minions. I think it's simply due to increasing the UC a certain amount, and the boosted amount, rather than base, confers Evasion. I agree that this should be made to work on Jiggys.

As for the second part: why? Things like the HoC and DB double-dip in that they give both minions an extra round of ranged and both minions whatever amount of Evasion with a single item. It's not exactly the same thing, but I don't think it should make that much of a difference.

QBRanger May 19 2009 2:44 PM EDT

Explain again how the HoC and DB's double dip.

Colonel Custard May 19 2009 3:04 PM EDT

I meant in the sense that a single item adds a round of ranged to two minions, or gives them each evasion. It's not the same thing. However, it was being discussed in chat this way:

You can boost the Jiggy's UC level with elven gear, add the static boost from HG, and then add the raw effect of the minion's trained UC


You can boost the Jiggy's UC level with elvens and statics, and then add the minion's effective level


You can add the Jiggy's UC and the minion's UC together, boost them with elvens, and then add the HG boost.

The third option seems to make the most sense. In that case, both UCs are getting boosted, but not stacking weirdly or double-dipping. It's like (a+b)*c+d, which is the same as a*c+b*c+d, but different than a+b*c+d or (a+b)*c+2d.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 19 2009 3:10 PM EDT

hoc giving minion and familiar an extra round is not what we are referring to with double dipping.

what we mean is for example with evasion. if i train evasion on my junction minion and then equip elven gear. the minion gets the boost to evasion from the gear. the boosted evasion would then be junctioned to the jiggy and then boosted again from the junctioned elven gear.

so for it to be double dipping on say the hoc, it would have to junction the extra round to the minion and then add another as well.

AdminNightStrike May 19 2009 3:45 PM EDT

Once again, many many thanks to Nem for his help in correcting this stuff.

Right now, there's only a few minor bugs left.

Colonel Custard May 19 2009 3:46 PM EDT

I get what you're saying.

I still think it makes the most sense to just make it (a+b)*c across the board, or, in the case of Evasion, (UClevel/3+trained evasion level)*DX bonus = total Evasion level.

Colonel Custard May 19 2009 3:47 PM EDT


(UClevel/3+trained evasion level)*(DX bonus+1)

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 19 2009 4:00 PM EDT

Well, most of the things seem to have been fixed. There is still 1 small issue with UC transferred evasion but it isn't very big and other than that everything should work right.

Also the elven gear are junctioning UC correctly now as well. For probably the first time since maybe when he came out, the JKF is working just about perfectly. :)

AdminNightStrike May 19 2009 4:02 PM EDT

Ok, so evasion with the JKF is as fixed as it's going to get, barring someone who wants to pay me several thousand dollars to make up for all the lost time so far :)

Basically, the JKF gets evasion from his new higher level of UC. He also gets evasion junctioned over from what the minion has from his own UC. That's a confusing sentence, so read it twice. I guess I should use less pronouns.

So the JKF gets a nice buff. Cool.

On a side note, Evasion (and DB) with all the familiars should work, fyi.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 19 2009 4:09 PM EDT

on my team, which evasion is junctioned over in the last step? level, raw level, effect or raw effect.

it would appear that other things are working correctly but i am not sure which number i need to use to verify my totals are correct?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 19 2009 4:20 PM EDT

i think nem stated it was post battle stat effect. if i understand that correctly, then since my minion has only 20 dex, the evasion that is junctioned over in the last step is reduced by 40% even when my jiggy has plenty of dex?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 19 2009 4:24 PM EDT

Yes, that is correct, and there really is no way to change that at the moment.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 19 2009 4:25 PM EDT

why not just use the raw level of the skill?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 19 2009 4:38 PM EDT

Because that would not factor in the evasion granted by DB.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 19 2009 4:42 PM EDT

well a 40% penalty at the upper ends of the evasion xp curve when trying to stay up with pth of weapons is a pretty massive issue...especially on an already weak tattoo. it is about 5 levels off from where it should be at my levels, but as each evasion point costs more won't the penalty hurt more the higher i go?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 19 2009 4:46 PM EDT

Yes, the penalty will hurt more the higher you go, you will be losing more levels of evasion to it.

There is one more thing I forgot to mention. The shield penalty will only be calculated with HG and that is how it will stay.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 19 2009 4:48 PM EDT

why not have db's show up in post battle under their own category, then we could use raw skill level plus db post number?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 19 2009 4:53 PM EDT

At the very least that is something that NS cannot do so we are stuck with it the way it is right now, for them moment at least.

Colonel Custard May 19 2009 4:57 PM EDT

"why not have db's show up in post battle under their own category, then we could use raw skill level plus db post number?"

That's an idea.

NS: can you code it so that DBs are always assumed present, but at +0 unless there is actually a pair equipped? Then you can calculate DB FIRST in the Evasion calculation. Take the DB + and convert it to an Evasion level, then add the levels of trained Evasion, and convert it back into an Evasion effect at the end. (100) Evasion + 100 DBs yield (132) Evasion either way, right?

So take the 100 from the DB, convert it to Evasion: 846,713. Then take, the level of Evasion trained on the minion: 846,713. Add these two together and get 1,693,426, and then find level: (132).

Does that make sense? Would that be a lot of work to do? Is it helpful at all?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 19 2009 10:11 PM EDT

" At the very least that is something that NS cannot do so we are stuck with it the way it is right now, for them moment at least."

so i guess we need to put this back in the known issues as a bug then?

AdminNightStrike May 20 2009 1:51 AM EDT

Nope. As per my post, it's a "won't fix" barring any massive donation.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 11:27 AM EDT

perhaps jon will fix it then. the precedent has usually been pay for features rather than bug fixes!

added to known issues.

AdminNightStrike May 20 2009 1:43 PM EDT

...Wiki page reverted. Dude, that's not even what we're talking about. What you just put in the wiki isn't a bug at all. The issue that won't be fixed is the junctioning of a UC minion's inherent Evasion from UC. That has nothing to do with the 40% penalty, which is valid if you read the original junction thread on how it's supposed to work.

And, I do not appreciate you attempting to put something back in there that I removed as a won't fix. Please don't abuse this way of handling bugs.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 1:48 PM EDT

the bug is that my familiar who has enough dex is affected by a 40 percent penalty to evasion because the minion does not have enough dex. it should junction over at the base level of xp spent on the skill before gear boosts to prevent double dipping.

explain to me why this isn't a bug and i will not add it to the known issues, however if the reason is that it is too complex to fix then it needs to stay in there so that others know not to keep reporting the issue.

known issues is for bugs unless i am mistaken, not just for bugs that are easy to fix! so again, why is this not a bug?

QBRanger May 20 2009 1:49 PM EDT

So Question please:

If you learn BL on a minion using an AoJ using a JKF, and that minion has only a 20 strength, you only need to learn BL as a base skill to get the full .75 effect on the JKF?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 1:53 PM EDT

if the reason you say it isn't a bug is because the effect is junctioned, then why use xp stacking? if you are going to use xp stacking though (which i agree with btw) then the xp level that should stack is the amount spent on the skill, not the post dex penalty amount. that is all i am trying to get across as a bug!

AdminNightStrike May 20 2009 1:57 PM EDT

dude -

Junction works by transferring over the effect on the minion.

That sentence can be very confusing, because it doesn't mean the effect from a level of a stat (ie, the number in parentheses after a level number). It means that if you have an item that provides a certain effect on a minion, that effect will transfer -- not the item itself.

Further, these transfer AFTER all bonuses and penalties are resolved. If the net change is negative, then it's zeroed out at a Junction of 1.0, and prorated thereafter (so that junction can't make things worse at max effect.)

For instance, say you have a piece of armor that provides a -5 to DX, and you have EG that provides a +6. That will transfer over +1. If the EG were instead +4, that would transfer over zero. That's what the original changelog explained regarding removal of penalties.

This way of evasion transferring over has always been there. What I fixed was that *after* the amount ot junction over was determined, it stacked by level. I didn't change how that original amount gets calculated.

QBRanger May 20 2009 2:00 PM EDT

So in response to my Q:

The a base BL on a AoJ wearing minion would transfer .75 effect.


AdminShade May 20 2009 2:05 PM EDT

and to answer dudemus (if I'm correct)

If your minion has 20 DX and 100 Evasion effect trained (before 40% penalty) then also only the amount displayed in play-by-play is added to the Familiar it is junctioned to, even while that Familiar could be the JKF (or any other but affected by haste).

AdminNightStrike May 20 2009 2:05 PM EDT

BL and PL are kind of messed up atm.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 2:05 PM EDT

how will bloodlust work when it is implemented? will a base effect of .75 on the minion junction over as the .75 effect or by xp?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 2:13 PM EDT

i do understand how it now works, i just think that it is buggy. my effect on my minion is like 84 evasion. if we are just transferring effect then that number should transfer. (not what i recommend but more accurate to what ns is saying the intent was)

we are however converting that effect to an xp level and then junctioning over that xp level. since we aren't doing the straight effect as the original changelog read, i think that instead of junctioning over the dex penalized evasion xp level it should junction over the raw level evasion xp level if a jiggy has enough dex to back up the inherent evasion plus the junctioned evasion.

am i the only one that thinks this is what is correct?

AdminShade May 20 2009 2:15 PM EDT

it is a bit different though.

the 84 effect already is based on a level, and this level is added to the level of your Familiar and then processed by modifiers.

Fatil1ty May 20 2009 2:17 PM EDT

so the bug where if you have say EB's +21,23,24,25 on a 20 dex minion. the final effect would be 25 everytime regardless because it is rounded up. I noticed that that effect of an extra 25% was transferred over regarldess if you have a pair at 21,22,23,24,or 25. The only solution to this problem was to train 100 dex and strength so that the rounding didn't take effect.

was that bug resolved?

I strongly suggest regardless of how much work that junction should transfer over items and skills PRE-penalties to the familiar. Then bonses can be applied.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 2:17 PM EDT

exactly shade, so if we are getting away from the effect and converting back to a level, why not use the trained level?

AdminShade May 20 2009 2:18 PM EDT

Fatil1ty: it doesn't work like that. your Evasion has a level and that level gains bonuses or penalties.

Elven Boots of +21 give a different bonus to Evasion than +25 Elven Boots. This now has been fixed (or rather was fixed yesterday)

AdminShade May 20 2009 2:20 PM EDT

dudemus: the trained level isn't the same as the level in combat.

your Minion has no DX, thus 40% penalty on the level.

Also, if your minion has any bonuses or penalties to DX / Skills, then those will be computed prior to making it the 'new' effect.

AdminShade May 20 2009 2:20 PM EDT

in short:

(a + b) * c is different from a + b * c

Fatil1ty May 20 2009 2:21 PM EDT

i don't mean skills yet I meant the actual effect to dexterity. The problem with the way it worked was that a base enchanter has 20 dex and str so there must be rounding used when calculating the effects. that rounding would then effect the familiar. For example I noticed that when I equipped +21 eb's and then upgraded to +23 it made NO difference to the dexterity of my familiar because it had already been rounded down to 24. Only when I got to +25 did it actually change the dexterity to 25 on my minion and thus an extra 5% on my familiar.

Major problem there was that it rounded DOWN.

Fatil1ty May 20 2009 2:23 PM EDT

oh and by the way dudemus is 100% correct. the xp trained into a skill should be completely unaffected by items and penalties until it is transferred to the familiar. THen the bonuses and penalties should be applied to that level of xp yielding a certain level of evasion etc.

that's the way it SHOULD work

AdminNightStrike May 20 2009 2:25 PM EDT

> that's the way it SHOULD work



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