Idea, getting rid of archery (in General)


QBRanger May 19 2009 11:10 PM EDT

Now before you scream no!!!, this is taken from my exbow thread.

Why do we have to even train archery? SoD users do not have to train Slingshot. Crossbow users do not have to train Crossbowman.

In the older days, it was to get an extra round. Now it does nothing other than make the weapon you spent millions upon millions of CB2 work properly. The only weapon in all of CB that needs a skill to use to a normal level.

Is the elb that much better than the SoD? We all know the MsB is rather poor. Especially with PL/HP/TSA minions out there.

Why not give all tanks the ability to use whatever missile weapon they want?

(The standard CB rant about mages)

It is not like mages have to train a skill to use SG properly. Or to use MM properly. Those are comparisons to CoC and FB, which is like the Elb to the SoD.

(rant over)

Let me choose if I want to learn a skill and spend the xp. And if so, if I want to use BL and take my chances using DBs vs exbow. Or use evasion and try it that way. Or even armor proficiency.

But give me a choice. If the exbow is kept like this then darn it, give me options other than try to keep up my DBs with their exbow +.

I possibly can do it, but others who play without USD that want to be archers cannot.

Since the exbow is a back burner problem for now, than give me a choice.

Zenai May 19 2009 11:37 PM EDT

I think this is a good idea. I've been looking at a lot of things before I started my NCB. All of the different strat ideas, items , weapons, skill combinations. It was very expensive to say the least, and what was the number one thing that made me want to say forget it, yup you guessed it Exbow. Why you might ask? Dang it I wanted to have the CHOICE to run a tank! Now it is a DM Archer Tank but that is besides the point. All of the points that Ranger has made carries merit.

Balance has always been an issue in CB if someone makes a weapon or armor piece massive people naturally complain and it get's nerfed. This is not so with the Exbow, time for it to either be nerfed or balanced out in one way or another but please do SOMETHING about it.

Personal Rant/Agreement with Ranger Over.

Django May 19 2009 11:41 PM EDT

I am 100% behind you on this one Ranger. Not just because I am an archer or have an ELB, but it just does not seem fair that archers have to use EXP for archery and no one else does.

Burton May 19 2009 11:48 PM EDT

I agree with you Ranger.

Lord Bob May 19 2009 11:50 PM EDT

"It is not like mages have to train a skill to use SG properly."

Maybe they should...

Rawr May 19 2009 11:51 PM EDT

"Is the elb that much better than the SoD?"

ELB has the highest base damage and does the most damage over every other ranged weapon. Therefore it requires Archery to use.

QBOddBird May 19 2009 11:51 PM EDT

Nah, I think it makes sense to need Archery to use the ELBow, which is the ranged equivalent of the BoNE.

I agree on your point about the MSB though.

Perhaps seeing Archery changed back to a skill that increases the damage of the ranged weapon would be more appropriate, MSB users would certainly appreciate this and it could be used to allow ELB users to get maximum damage.

QBRanger May 19 2009 11:52 PM EDT

Do you need a special skill to hit with the Bone properly?

No, so why is it that way for the ELB?

Rawr May 19 2009 11:53 PM EDT

True, Ranger. Then I agree with Oddbird.

three4thsforsaken May 19 2009 11:54 PM EDT

I'm cool with it only if the 100 BTH is reduced.

QBRanger May 19 2009 11:56 PM EDT

Actually I believe, given the same x, a SoD can do more damage in total to a 4 minion character than an elb can do vs 1 minion.

Also, the SoD can kill and entire character of 4 minion in 1 round-potentially.

The ELB has to do it 1 minion a round.

So, is the ELB that much better to require both xp and usage of that skill slot?

I do not think so.

I suspect this will be down the middle with mages and exbow users on one side and archers/some tanks on the other.

Django May 19 2009 11:56 PM EDT

In order for me to keep up, I have to use USD. That is not fair. If I dont use USD then my bow is worthless. If I could put my EXP into my HP's or ST instead of archery, then I most likely would not need to use USD. It is not fair to people who can not spend USD or do not want to. To have a big ELB, you almost have to spend USD unless you have saved for a couple years.

QBRanger May 19 2009 11:57 PM EDT

And yet again,
The 100 BTH of the ELB is NOT 100 every round.

Only the last 3, with penalties of at least 30 in the first 3 rounds.

Averaged out, it is at most 85.

three4thsforsaken May 20 2009 12:00 AM EDT

why does it matter? All ranged weapons have that problem. By that logic, all other ranged weapon BTH should be increased.

iBananco [Blue Army] May 20 2009 12:00 AM EDT

Watch Jon make archery give a 40% bonus to damage, then nerf all bow damage by 29.6%.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] May 20 2009 12:00 AM EDT

I can kinda tell you havent experimented any with a SoD have you?

Rawr May 20 2009 12:02 AM EDT

"Actually I believe, given the same x, a SoD can do more damage in total to a 4 minion character than an elb can do vs 1 minion.

Also, the SoD can kill and entire character of 4 minion in 1 round-potentially.

The ELB has to do it 1 minion a round.

So, is the ELB that much better to require both xp and usage of that skill slot? "

CoC and SG have the same relationship, however everyone still uses SG more...

Rawr May 20 2009 12:03 AM EDT

Similarly, FB 'can' kill a team in one round and potentially can do more dmg than MM, but nobody uses FB.

kevlar May 20 2009 12:05 AM EDT

Ok but talking about "using it properly", can you even compare a DD vs. a bow? So if you grant Bows to have inherent bonus/standard that archery currently gives, then you have a class of weapons that can be upgraded with CB and USD money. Something you can't do with DD spells, which can only be upgraded with EXP, which is tough to do when you don't have a NUB/NCB going.

iBananco [Blue Army] May 20 2009 12:06 AM EDT

That's because the team that FB can potentially kill in one round could be yours.

kevlar May 20 2009 12:07 AM EDT

KhaMam has done very well using FB.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 12:12 AM EDT

"And yet again,
The 100 BTH of the ELB is NOT 100 every round."

how is this different from other ranged weapons? you keep saying that as if the elb is singled out for this treatment, but doesn't the same thing hold true for xbows and sods, except they start out even lower and then go down from there?

ResistanZ May 20 2009 12:18 AM EDT

Seriously, Ranger, doesn't your ELB already do enough damage?

How about this? ALl ranged weapons need Archery just like the ELB/MsB do? That seems like a more rational choice than buffing ELBs.

Daz May 20 2009 12:18 AM EDT

When I first read this, I agreed with you.

After thinking a little bit, I decided that I don't.

Archery is a deterrent from USD tanks being just silly.
You have your USD Tank with his massive USD Sword and Bloodlust.
Or you have your USD Tank with his huge USD ELB and Archery.

Without archery, you have (Admittedly half the NW) both in one tank, which means the damage will be a constant stream. And the Upgrade costs start being not-worth-it for a weapon at some point... this gives you something else to upgrade instead.


I'll admit this is half baked, but I'm in a huge rush to go out XD

Zenai May 20 2009 12:40 AM EDT

Ok everyone instead of fighting or bashing Ranger how about you help him out. I'll say it once again his idea does have merit, specifics in smoothing it out is what is needed. Honestly something needs to be done here and if nothing else I know that many agree that there is an imbalance that should be corrected. There has been multiple threads about it so don't tell me you don't think so I know better.

The method is not necessarily a big thing for me just that it gets balanced I'm sure that sentiment goes for many others as well. Ranger had an idea I went with it. Show me a better one and I might go with it too. After all CHOICES is something we should all have right? Why not in this? So either post something helpful or suggest a idea yourself that follows the guidelines that Ranger has set.

Untouchable [The Knighthood] May 20 2009 12:42 AM EDT

this is madness

Rawr May 20 2009 12:44 AM EDT

Criticizing an idea does not constitute "bashing," Zenai.

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] May 20 2009 12:46 AM EDT

Meh, i'd give it merit if ranger didnt make a complaint thread everytime he see's a change that could benifit him. Remember the whole he couldnt find a steel familiar issue, what did he do, tried too push our blacksmith votes toward familiars -_-. I recently remember ranger complaining in a thread about how the SoD has the ability too train a skill where as his elb lacks that, I think its complete crap that he'd even mention this type of change. If you wanted too use a SoD or a skill, maybe you should of thought about that before you dumped all that usd into your bow.? o.o

Little Anthony May 20 2009 1:09 AM EDT

I can already tell what's your ideal pure set up will be require this:
1. 90% exp to HP
2. 5% exp to DM
3. 100% NW (usd might be) into ELB
4. 0% exp to Archery
5. TOA?
=> G.O.D.

three4thsforsaken May 20 2009 1:13 AM EDT

The ability to train evasion or other skills would be more valuable then just dumping it into str.

QBOddBird May 20 2009 1:14 AM EDT

And that leaves an extra 5% exp to just sit on 'cuz it isn't even needed, LA! *grins*

Little Anthony May 20 2009 1:18 AM EDT

that was the purpose ob

Rawr May 20 2009 1:20 AM EDT

lol 20 million hp archer...

FailBoat[SG] May 20 2009 1:48 AM EDT

Honestly, I agree with Ranger.

Back when Archery gave a bonus, it was a great skill. But now, its only required to use a single weapon in the game. That only hits one person. Yeah sure, single minion teams would have to fear from it but they have to fear from alot anyways.

Why do we keep something so arcaic, butchered that word, as it around and prevent Archers from training more than just HP and DM?

QBRanger May 20 2009 8:03 AM EDT

I only proposed this to give an option to counter the exbows out there.

If you want to say I complain so be it, however I try to make the game better.

I saw people needing familiars and I thought they were needed more than items already in rentals. I even voted for the familiar I did not want.

However, currently having to use up a skill slot to properly use a bow is strange as it is the only weapon to require it.

But why?

Is the elb that powerful? Certainly a USD backed one can be.

But what about all those who do not use USD? Are their archers any more powerful than other characters? Or are their score/PR ratios equal to those of mages or non ELB tanks?

I know the exbow will likely not be fixed properly. It has been well over 2 years since this problem was first brought up. So this is another possible solution.

Give me a chance to train evasion if I want. But let me have that skill slot freed up instead of spending a lot of xp just to properly use a weapon.

QBRanger May 20 2009 8:39 AM EDT

"lol 20 million hp archer... "

Yea, I think we are a long way away from that.

I would get 1.2M more levels if I did not need archery.

But I can tell ya, I would learn evasion instead of pumping hp or strength.

As I think most current archers would.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 20 2009 8:48 AM EDT

It because Ranged kills first.

Scrap distinct ranged rounds, make combat simultanious (I've even posted an idea on that), then we can redesign Archery.

Ranged combat can never be as strong, effecient and damaging as Melee.

Otherwise Melee is never reached and no one plays anything but an Archer.

When all the Tanks are gone, the game is gone...

If the problem is the EXBow, let's change the problem instead of the rest of CB.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 20 2009 8:52 AM EDT

"Give me a chance to train evasion if I want. But let me have that skill slot freed up instead of spending a lot of xp just to properly use a weapon."

I'd like to use both AMF and EC on a single minion. You have the option to use DBs over Evasion. If you really want Evasion, change from an Elbow (the most potentially damage Ranged Weapon, it's all about the number of targets). You have the option to use a SoD instead.

As we've not got a Ranged Salvage Yard, you could see if someone with a large SoD wants to Trade that for your ELbow.

Talion May 20 2009 9:07 AM EDT

I haven't read anything but the first message of this thread so please feel free to disregard this comment if that offends you.

Bottom line is that if you think Archery is too much to ask to let you use an ELB, then choose another weapon. There is a reason why people are ready to train Archery in order to be able to use the bows: Bows kick butt!

The vast majority of physical ranged damaged users choose the Elven Long Bow or the Mageseeker and are willing to train Archery in order to use them. In fact there are 3 times as many bows as there are Slings of Death. 2 times more Elven Long Bows than Slings of Death. Enough said.

QBRanger May 20 2009 9:13 AM EDT

Actually archer do not have a choice.

DBs or get nerfed in 1-2 rounds by enchanters.

I do not see the same choice as you suggest comparing AMF vs EC.

But then again I am an idiot.

Neo Japan May 20 2009 9:13 AM EDT

you don't need archery, just pump up the +, same thing. Or you could spend EXP instead of $$$ and get 85-100 PTH. Just because you can't beat one guy doesn't mean you have to change CB. I bet there are guys that you can beat but he can't. Its Janken when it comes to these things.

Rawr May 20 2009 9:15 AM EDT

"However, without Archery trained, bows receive a significant penalty to their base chance to hit (CTH) -- 80% penalty"

It is a bit more than what pumping + can do I think...

Neo Japan May 20 2009 9:18 AM EDT

the other Idea is, bows take talent to use. no talent needed for crossbows and children play with slings. its a realistic feel. but, I'll stay out of this and see if anything changes, and just play by how CB is set up. I live the Lohas life.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 20 2009 9:20 AM EDT

"It is a bit more than what pumping + can do I think..."

It's there on purpose, to stop a BL 2H Weapon Tank being able to just strap on the largest ELbow they can find and dominate both Ranged and Melee.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] May 20 2009 9:53 AM EDT

*standard rant*

Sure but lets introduce another EO then, call it Anti Physical shield, does exactly the same as AMF but then for physical damage.

You can here the tanks/archer out there cry already

No, period do not remove archery, because crossbows do not need years of training to use effectively nor do slings or slingshots for that matter.
Drawing a bow takes years of practice before you become any good at it. Therefor the skill archery is logical.

Mesoshort May 20 2009 10:07 AM EDT

Just to throw this out there: Maybe make Archery a separation from the other skills? And put that anti-melee in with that. Seems they would cancel each other it... maybe put in a few other weapon specific training options as well, like duel wielding ;D... Not put together very well but it's an idea! :)

BluBBen May 20 2009 10:12 AM EDT

"Drawing a bow takes years of practice before you become any good at it. Therefor the skill archery is logical. "

There is much in a game like this that is _not_ logic, so you'll have to come up with another argument.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 20 2009 10:16 AM EDT

Why does everyone think that archery only allows a user to use a bow properly.

If you look at any other type of ranged weapon the Bth is 60 or lower. Only bows have higher Bth. If you look at it that way, the first half of archery takes away the penalty for using it and the second half of your archery skill gives you the 40 Bth extra.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 20 2009 10:16 AM EDT

Problem with Dual Wielding is BL already does that. Due to the system, the only benefit using a second weapon would give is extra damage. And BL does that without you needing to invest additional NW into a second Weapon (and take up more ENC).

There's no 'on hit' mechanics to make more, but smaller hits more beneficial over the less but larger hits BL gives.

DW could fit into the game (lower your Base CTH when you DW), but it would either be worse than BL, or by better. And one or other would be made redundant. :(

Dark Dreky May 20 2009 10:16 AM EDT

Reduce BTH for the ELB and I'd say we have a winner.

Lefty May 20 2009 10:18 AM EDT

I haven't read all the posts except the main argument, and so far I am in agreement.

What about a skill that allows you to double/triple or even quad shot though? No more Archery skill, but a skill instead that lets you hit multiple times.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 10:19 AM EDT

"Why does everyone think that archery only allows a user to use a bow properly.

If you look at any other type of ranged weapon the Bth is 60 or lower. Only bows have higher Bth. If you look at it that way, the first half of archery takes away the penalty for using it and the second half of your archery skill gives you the 40 Bth extra."

i could not agree more! do you not think that all other ranged users would not jump at the chance to train a skill (at a percentage of another stat no less) and get 100 bth.

if archery were to be removed, i would guess the elb would be then adjusted to 65 or so bth.

QBRanger May 20 2009 10:34 AM EDT

That sounds great.

Remove archery and make all missile weapons 60-70 BTH. With little or no penalty in the early missile rounds as evasion gets a multiplier for those rounds anyway.

And in real life, it is easier to pull back a bowstring and fire, then learn to use a sling and not hit yourself with one.

Crossbows on the other hand are very easy to use. But, in real life, they are very slow to fire.

So if we are going for realism, let us make crossbows fire every other round in missile to account for reality.

And no, that was not a suggestion, just a statement to the realism of CB.

Colonel Custard May 20 2009 10:45 AM EDT

"What about a skill that allows you to double/triple or even quad shot though? No more Archery skill, but a skill instead that lets you hit multiple times."

Archery does allow you to double triple and quad hit. Some people probably even hit 5 times. Without archery, you only get 20% of your PTH/DX, so you'd be down to 1-hitting.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] May 20 2009 10:51 AM EDT

ranger, that is pretty much what i suggested a week or so ago. it would make it much easier to figure out pth and thus tell if things are working as intended as well.

many people didn't seem to want things simplified though. i think that is silly especially when things are too complex to verify accuracy!

QBRanger May 20 2009 11:27 AM EDT

Dude,

It seems the stars, the moon and all the planets aligned. We have a suggestion that a lot of people can get behind.

If we can get rid of the skill archery, let us lower the ELBs pth to about 60 and remove the penalties in the early missile rounds.

Is this suggestion fair?

QBRanger May 20 2009 7:42 PM EDT

This would also be a buff to UC as one could use a bow with it.

Hmmm....

QBOddBird May 20 2009 7:47 PM EDT

"It seems the stars, the moon and all the planets aligned. We have a suggestion that a lot of people can get behind. "

Something tells me you're going to need to get a dev behind this idea before anything happens. *grin*

Brakke Bres [Ow man] May 20 2009 7:49 PM EDT

Nah, lets keep the penalties in early missile round, if you start hitting hard in the first rounds then we'll probably don't need 50 rounds as we have now. Ow and lets keep archery, since you'll still need training for it

ResistanZ May 20 2009 7:51 PM EDT

Why not force archery on the crossbows and slings? THat seems fair, right? Maybe give them all 100 BTH.

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 20 2009 7:52 PM EDT

100 BTH ExBow? *coughs*

QBRanger May 20 2009 7:53 PM EDT

OP,

That is one alternative.

Still will not change the fact small enchanters with min strength are leeching millions of strength from tanks with exbows.

Zenai May 20 2009 7:57 PM EDT

Henk normally I would agree with you except that I went to Archery Class and well 90% of the Class was hitting their mark (inside the second ring) with in the 1st week. This included a 56 yr old granny which blew my mind by the way. So take that years of training and throw it out the door sorry bro I just don't think it applies. If they were say going for Olympic Status or something firing at say 100 Yards or more then ya but I'm sure these battles are much closer than that. Take away some kind of dex advantage for distance and there you go.

QBRanger May 20 2009 7:59 PM EDT

Reminds me of when I was in archery class.

Almost cut off my own fingers trying to use my bow. So magically delicious.

But after the first day or so, I realized you have to pull the string back first. Then it was easy.

ResistanZ May 20 2009 8:04 PM EDT

Of course if the exbow is the problem, then the exbow itself should be fixed. >.>

QBRanger May 20 2009 8:07 PM EDT

Op,

We both know after 2+ years the exbow is about as likely to be fixed as Rush Limbaugh and Obama having drinks with Osama Bin Laden. Around the campfire singing songs.

Removing archery will at least let us have a chance to use something other than DBs to counter it---evasion.

Sort of an end around a problem that likely will not be fixed.

QBOddBird May 20 2009 8:08 PM EDT

I've always seen Archery as the tradeoff for getting to use the only base 6 weapon in the game.

So I'd say leave Archery alone, but:

Fix the Exbow
Turn the Mageseeker into a sling or crossbow

QBOddBird May 20 2009 8:08 PM EDT

Well, we all know the solution, you've told us before.


Ranger, you have to leave so the Exbow gets fixed. ;)

QBRanger May 20 2009 8:08 PM EDT

For another thread perhaps--The Mageseeker is rubbish.

But yes, please fix the exbow.

QBRanger May 20 2009 8:11 PM EDT

"Ranger, you have to leave so the Exbow gets fixed. ;) "

Gee like that has not happened before.

QBRanger May 22 2009 12:42 AM EDT

Thank you everyone for your input.

After reading the posts, I do believe the ELB is quite powerful, and does need archery as a counter.

I just hope we can fix the underlying problem of the exbow. Not that an exbow on a full tank, boosted up high enough (more than just 3k x) should do a number on another tank.

But the real thing that gets me is the exbow being used on minor minions, doing the exact same thing at only 3-4k x.

FailBoat[SG] May 22 2009 11:20 PM EDT

I'd still like to see the Archery requirement removed from the MsK but then again, I don't run a mage team. <.<

QBJohnnywas May 23 2009 3:29 AM EDT

The mageseeker isn't a bad weapon; I've used ELBs and SoDs a lot. The three weapons are all different, so to expect a mageseeker to perform like an ELB is probably the main reason people don't get on with it. But it's doing some decent damage, 500k a strike, with triple and quads. And the seeking ability lets me take on some much bigger teams.

Personally I don't think it needs anything doing to it. It's a damn good alternative to just throwing loads of ELB damage at people.

Meanwhile, ELBs and Mageseekers outperform the SoD in my opinion. The SoD was great before the damage reductions a while back but after that the splash damage wasn't as good.

I don't mind training a skill to use them, but I do miss the old archery, where I could use a bow without taking on some penalties. UC tank with ELB was one of my favourite things.

Wizard'sFirstRule May 23 2009 4:30 AM EDT

it is a little (just a little) weird that you have to use a bow with archery, it probably can use a little change.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 23 2009 5:28 AM EDT

How about we just add in a rocket launcher to the game while we are at it. You could change it so the bows don't require archery but those that use USD would be getting an advantage in the same way as the non USD using Archers are getting screwed. I think best way would be to further lower the Exbow and Axbow BTH or make them get a skill for it.

iBananco [Blue Army] May 23 2009 5:49 AM EDT

I don't recall USD affecting the skill slot. Recent change, perhaps?

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 23 2009 6:24 AM EDT

USD doesn't affect the skill slot it allows people to buy CBD and upgrade their DBs and Bows to insane levels. high DBs being one of the few ways to effectively defeat the Ex and Ax bows.

iBananco [Blue Army] May 23 2009 6:25 AM EDT

So how exactly would removing archery benefit solely USD spenders?

AdminNightStrike May 23 2009 6:32 AM EDT

>USD doesn't affect the skill slot

E[CGB]?

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 23 2009 6:57 AM EDT

I never said it would solely benefit them, but those that have already spent huge amounts to stay ahead of the opposition will leave them very far behind. in Ranger's case he would get 1.2M levels of Evasion added to his archer. with those DBs any non mage will be hard pressed to hit him.
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