Thought on the exbow. (in General)
May 22 2009 1:03 AM EDT
I know yet another thread/post.
But what about this for the exbow drain.
Do it like AMF:
Calculate the ratio (Str Att level/Str defend level), after all bonuses/penalties; call this X.
If X<1 (that is, Str Att weaker than Str defend) then effect is X^(0.7)/2
If X>1 (Str Att stronger than Str defend) effect is 1 - 1/(2X)
Use the other tanks strength vs your strength to determine drain. Irrespective of damage. Have damage be a bonus.
And use the AMF way to figure the % drain per hit.
Now what about the x on the xbow.
I will use something else Jon invented, similar to evasion.
For each +1 on the exbow you get a full 1000 strength. Or +1k gives full 1M strength.
For each 1000 strength unmatched you only get credit for 500 (50%).
1) 7M strength using a x7k exbow vs a tank with 5M strength. Using AMF 7/5 = 1.4, which is >1 so 1 - 1/(3.8) = 73% drain per hit.
2) 7M strength using x 3k exbow vs a tank with 5M strength. 3M of the strength is 100% with 4M at 50% so total str is 5M.
5M vs 5M is easy- 50% drain per hit.
3) 3M strength using a x2k exbow vs a 7M strength tank. 2M full strength with 50% of the last million. 2.5M vs 7M tank gives:
AMF of .24 or 24% drain per hit.
4) 500k strength using x1k exbow vs a 5M strength tank. Full 500k strength gives:
AMF of .1 or 10% drain per hit. Something but not a whole lot.
Ideas, suggestions, modifications I am a bit tipsy but...
May 22 2009 1:06 AM EDT
How's this for an easier thing :
Drain = Drainable stat * (Damage Dealt / Total HP on target)
May 22 2009 1:07 AM EDT
As a first glance, I like it a lot.
Just wondering, would you care so much about the exbow if it didn't directly cause you to lose against at least 1 person?
Wait, statement retracted. I was under the impression LA's exbow allowed him to beat you.
Artemis, it was a simple question I retracted. Way to try and troll me.
I began posting before you retracted, sorry. But, I wasn't the one who posted a non-needed, some what mean comment in the thread to begin with.
Ok, OT: Ranger, looks good, although it's past midnight, so I might have to look over it again tomorrow. Sickone, that looks good too, although it would give heavy tanks the advantage.
May 22 2009 1:27 AM EDT
'although it would give heavy tanks the advantage'
You got a problem with that?
this does seem like a very good formula for determining the str drain of the exbow.
May 22 2009 9:03 AM EDT
When it was NS's exbow on his large tank, it bothered me enough to post every year or so.
Now that we have exbows on smallish minions, or minions with a pittance of strength trained, I am very bothered.
What is to stop someone from slapping on a exbow on a 50k strength enchanter and completely draining someones strength. Unless of course they spend money into DBs?
And that is what we have now. I have to use my DBs to beat LA. And if that exbow was higher on the + side, I would have to spend money to keep up with NW on an enchanter/smallish minion.
Now, of course I can try to do it with USD. However what about all other tanks that cannot?
May 22 2009 9:36 AM EDT
Sickone, not sure I understand what HP should have to do with STR drain? And are you talking native HP or total HP?
It seems to me that using various ratios of STR (Ranger's idea) is just another way of basing the drain off damage done. A stronger shooter will do more damage, so more drain.
The specialty xbows used to work based on damage (way back). The only problem I could ever see with that was when a minion had massive defense, like the way ToE and high AC used to really reduce damage done. But that has an easy fix. Determine what the hit would be without any damage reduction, and use that to determine STR drain.
Then titrate the actual damage done by an exbow (e.g. by changing base damage multiplier) until it seems to hit and drain a reasonable amount.
PTH would still have a place, since more hits would still equal more drain.
Finally, making the exbow less effective, or at least requiring it to be used with an actual strong minion might breathe some life back into EC -- it seems to have lost some allure, and I think that is because it is much easier to just use specialty bows to drain opposing tanks.
And everyone's happy, no? What are the flaws in my idea?
The reason I am pushing for simplification is because it seems like things have become needlessly complex in some regards. I understand that things like familiars and new gear are obviously going to add some level of complexity (they have to, that spices up the game and keeps it fresh), but when we have ratios upon ratios and endless balance threads, doesn't that indicate that things are getting a little bit out of hand? The recent threads about junctioning Evasion and how all the gear applies -- it hurt my head. Additionally, it didn't really seem to come to any sort of conclusive resolution, ending with a sort of "can't do any more with it at the moment, so it is what it is" sentiment. To me, that smacks of certain game mechanics having gotten so onerous to manage that they have painted some of the game's functionality into a corner.
Well, I've digressed from the original post enough, I suppose. Ranger, I think your scheme is good, and definitely think those using specialty bows should have to do more than slap one on an enchanter. I just think things could be simplified by simply using damage, as damage already accounts for STR.
May 22 2009 10:55 AM EDT
I was just trying to use the 3 variables that I believe should determine the drain:
1) Users strength
2) x on the exbow
3) Defenders strength
1 and 2 of course help determine damage. 3 also to a much lesser extent.
Since damage is dependant on ToE, AC, etc... I thought modifying the existing AMF and evasion ideas would be best.
Of course the standard PL rules will apply to stop drain for a round or more.
For an axbow, use the same strength vs strength formula but it drains dexterity.
And I would use the strength determined after items and EO spells are applied.
I think changing it per round, during combat may be too hard, but would not be adverse to have the degree of drain change each round.
IE you drain me from 7M to 5M strength, next shot is based upon my 5M strenght, giving more effect.
May 22 2009 11:20 AM EDT
Here is what I would do...
(1) Make the rare crossbow effect like poisoning
So it doesn't mater how many times you hit the target or how much STR you have or how many x's the crossbow has.
From the moment a minion is hit for at least 1 damage, its STR or DEX (depending on the type of crossbow you use) starts decaying constantly from the next round and over a period of 50 rounds until it reaches 0.
(2) Create a new 'Resist Poison' skill or item that halves the poisoning effect
So we have a new item and the rare crossbows get the nerf they are in need of receiving.
In my opinion, this is the most interesting solution to the problem.
May 22 2009 11:44 AM EDT
... forgot to state that PL would absorb STR and DEX decay with the 10% extra reduction. So that would mean that a PL minion with 10% of the strength of a tank hit with an EBow would probably give said tank an extra 5 to 6 rounds before it started loosing STR.
May 22 2009 11:49 AM EDT
Best idea yet Talion! A long overdue change and an item or skill to boot ;) Worthy of close consideration. Alas, I won't hold my breath.
That would be fine for a BL Tank since the poison would get a chance to hit. But it would not do much against an archer and I'd prefer to keep it useful against all tanks or it becomes even more a niche toy.
I prefer a more simple formula based purely on damage (ignoring armor if you wish) or on X (factoring in encumbrance). I see no need to include the targets strength in the equation. Why bother? I philosophically lean towards X myself, figuring an assassin does not need to dish out a lot of damage, and that the missile is more of a dart with poison. I don't think enchanters have nearly as much encumbrance as tanks so though you could strap a specialty bow on an enchanter if the encumbrance is done right it won't do the same ridiculous stat reduction it does now.
In fact, I don't think specialty bows should do ANY damage to tell you the truth.
May 22 2009 12:02 PM EDT
As with almost all medications and poisons, the weight of the target/patient, matters when trying to figure out the right dosage.
The same poison that would normally kill a 98lb person will do far less damage to a offensive lineman who weighs 300lbs.
I do believe, rather strongly, that the strength of the target should be a factor in the drain.
That is true, it is very much dependent on size. But strength is not necessarily size. If that were the case a minion with 2M strength would be 100,000 times larger than a minion with 20 strength.
May 22 2009 12:14 PM EDT
Since we have no such things as BMI for minions, strength can sort of be used in this manner.
No a 2M str minion is not thousands of times bigger than a 20 str minion. But he does a lot more damage and therefore it can be assumed he has a lot more ability to withstand poison/damage.
Like I stated above, my idea is just that. An idea.
Whether or not the defenders strength is used to determine drain is up for a lot of debate. However most people do think that damage done should be a major prereq for drain done.
May 22 2009 12:19 PM EDT
"I do believe, rather strongly, that the strength of the target should be a factor in the drain."
That would be the case. It would take a lot longer to reduce reduce the damage done by a minion with 8M strength to a harmless level than it would a minion with 1M strength.
Thus the relation to your comparison between a 95lbs individual and a 300lbs individual. The 300lbs individual would still be able to lift large object even after losing 25% of its strength while the 95lbs individual would be almost reduced to the strength of a 14 year old girl after losing the same proportion.
It only makes sense that a poison that affects STR would be more harmful to someone that has a lot of it while taking a longer time to significantly affect that individual's ability to use said STR.
May 22 2009 12:28 PM EDT
If you based it on the amount of damage done it would be useless as things stand now. If you increased the amount of damage it did do combined with the drain power (even if reduced) it would still be too much. Drain a good amount of HP and reduce ST or DX depending on which bow. Sign me up. I will take two.
May 22 2009 12:37 PM EDT
Windwalker, basing it on damage does not mean it would be a one-to-one relationship on damage-to-drain. I'm just saying use damage as the driver. Maybe damage times a factor of some kind. Doesn't matter, I just want it to use damage (pre-reduction, if you want) because it is simple and already there.
Here's why I don't think the target's STR should matter: Yes, a stronger target should be more resistant, BUT a stronger target has more strength to lose (assuming we aren't draining by percentage). So, to me, it cancels out. A stronger target should be tougher to take down, but has more to lose to begin with. So there is no need to even work it into the equation.
I don't really like the single-hit poison idea either (just my opinion). The only reason to pump pth in that case would be to hit slightly earlier -- all other investment would be wasted. That strikes me a strange game dynamic with no precedent. Then again, I guess having a new dynamic could be sort of interesting...
i, also have always like the poison effect line of reasoning, have it ramp up with more hits, but if it only hits a few times then the effects aren't battle changing.
have it logarithmic maybe:
then have that factor mulitplied by a number that determines the drains.
May 22 2009 1:04 PM EDT
Sut ;) Honestly-this sounds good." I'm just saying use damage as the driver. Maybe damage times a factor of some kind. Doesn't matter, I just want it to use damage (pre-reduction, if you want) because it is simple and already there." You mentioned too that it wouldn't have to be a one-to-one drain. Brother I think even that would be an improvement ;)
May 22 2009 2:01 PM EDT
And now the poison idea is growing on me... So much for simplicity! *smile*
May 22 2009 2:07 PM EDT
So no matter what the x or the strength of the user is the drain will be the same? As you stated earlier the damage does not matter.
If not how will you determine the drain in the poison scenario?
Also, this is far less effective vs archers, as they have to do all their damage in 6 rounds most of the time anyway. Unless you take their strength massively down in those 6 rounds, you will not effect them greatly.
i thought the problem now was that they drained too much in too few hits?
if that is not the problem, then defining the problem might be helpful for this discussion.
we also have to keep in mind implementation times. if we suggest a fix that can overlay the current system its chances of being implemented may be greater than devising a whole new system.
May 22 2009 2:13 PM EDT
"So it doesn't mater how many times you hit the target or how much STR you have or how many x's the crossbow has.
From the moment a minion is hit for at least 1 damage, its STR or DEX (depending on the type of crossbow you use) starts decaying constantly from the next round and over a period of 50 rounds until it reaches 0."
So now we get x1 +100 exbows on 1000 strength enchanters firing vs all tanks forcing all tanks to use DBs?
+100 is $14,540,263. Way too little investment to be able to do what you propose.
I really dislike this a lot.
i offered a different implementation of a poison strategy as well.
May 22 2009 2:15 PM EDT
Yeah basing it on number of hits is no better than as it currently is..
Ranger's idea, or damage work either way.
Sut has a good point that drain shouldn't be dependent on the target's strength though because the stronger characters are effected less by a decrease in strength anyway.
May 22 2009 2:23 PM EDT
The problem is too much drain for too little investment needing too little strength.
With the current system, a 50M exbow on a 60k strength minion can completely drain a 8M tanks strength to below 0 in 2 hits.
x3.5k seems to be the cap on where you need to get your exbow to in order to achieve maximum effect.
So any solution needs to do the following:
1) Make the drain dependant on the damage done, which is proportional to the strength of the shooter and the x on the weapon
2) Make it exceptionally hard to completely drain the strength from a high strength tank using a low strength minor minion with a relatively low x exbow. Low x compared to many other of the weapons in play.
3) Make it easier for a real tank to drain the strength from another real tank, but not make it incredibly easy like we have it now. That is 1 hit for 1 damage taking you to the negatives.
My proposal includes most of these features.
A low strength minion using a high x weapon will not drain much per hit from a high str tank. However a low str minion vs a low str tank will drain a lot.
A high strength minion will drain loads of strength vs a low str tank. A high str tank will drain a lot, but not all of the str from a high str tank.
May 22 2009 2:28 PM EDT
well i like the idea that you have to have the same stat whether st/dex to some kind of ratio to the other minion to get a drain and if i had more dex/st then the other minion i should get a much larger drain. but like i said it should be stat to stat. i also think that they really don't need to do damage because it is a special bow.
May 22 2009 2:31 PM EDT
"So now we get x1 +100 exbows on 1000 strength enchanters firing vs all tanks forcing all tanks to use DBs?"
You could also equip a ToA on a PL battery or actually train a bit of STR/DEX on said PL battery. Unless you plan on taking over 30 rounds to kill your opponents, there would be many ways other than training Evasion or buying DB to counter this.
If you have 8M STR, to take your example, and you get hit in the 1st round of ranged, you still have 4M STR left to deal damage in in the 20th round of melee. For crying out loud, you would still have 2M strength left after round 30 of melee.
May 22 2009 2:34 PM EDT
... also, I do not think a x1 weapon can do much damage against even a moderate amount of AC.
How about this for a way that the poison method works. The amount it decays is based on the damage done. The damage is not changed at all from the way it is now. But when a tank gets hit it drains str by exactly the amount of damage done (or base damage before reductions), and continues to drain each round by this amount. Hitting multiple times accumulates the poison so after 2 hits it will drain the total damage of both hits per round and so on.
"The problem is too much drain for too little investment needing too little strength."
so lowering the drain amount done will deal with the problem without requiring a total mechanic revamp, no?
also, is your suggestion just regarding the exbow or the axbow as well?
how many times does la's specialty crossbow hit you in a battle?
May 22 2009 2:43 PM EDT
Ok, so perhaps not x1, but what about x100 doing 5 damage starting the drain cycle.
However, in your proposal, it would really do nothing vs archers as by round 20, if they did not win the battle, they deserve to lose.
The main character type this would really be effective for is RBF users as they plan on having a lot of rounds in battle.
Any changes to the exbow need to help vs archers. It needs to be quick, as about 35-40% of all battles end in missile rounds. Another large % ends before round 15.
May 22 2009 2:50 PM EDT
The exbow LA is using hits my HF and archer 2 times each before I lose all my strength. In some battles I do have 60k strength left on the tank.
However, with the current system, the exbow LA is using on a 60k strength minion is just as effective as if my tank would use it. Perhaps a bit less but still 2 hits = complete damage nerfage on a 2 tank character is way out of line.
I think I stated above the axbow will work the same way. Strength of attacker, strength of defender and x on the weapon will figure into the final % drain.
And when we lower the drain, lets say 50%, then when exbows are x6k, which may be soon, we get back to the same problem. And then have to rescale it again.
My proposal, I believe, takes into account increasing strength on tanks, and increasing x on the weapon. And likely can be used well into the future.
Also, when I type about % drain, it is not from the starting strength at the beginning of battle, it is the strength at the time of being hit.
yep, that is why i didn't propose a flat reduction in drain.
ok, using my scale it would work like so with a 100k drain factor (this number can be changed for balance):
first hit drains 100k
specialty crossbow users would have to invest in pth to increase hits to get much of an effect and hopefully the mechanic could be added easily to the current system, moreso than a total revamp anyways.
those hits and drains are on a single opponent. what i am not sure of is if the current system tracks number of hits or how easy that would be to change if it doesn't.
May 22 2009 3:02 PM EDT
Does your system depend on the strength of the attacker and the x on the exbow?
I really want to avoid getting a low str minion with a x7k exbow draining most strength in a couple hits. That is very abusive.
the mechanic is the same as now for hit determination, but it still has the same effect in my mind. your guys get hit twice by his specialty bow each? they would only be drained 300k each.
now if he upped his pth through dex advantage or weapon upgrades he could hit more and thus drain more.
simply put, it stacks the drain effect and makes it necessary to get mulitple hits for drains to be effective.
May 22 2009 3:13 PM EDT
Then they could possibly learn 2M dex, 20 strength, use a x1000 +200 exbow and drain a lot of strength.
I really like using their damage/strength as part of the equation.
However, almost anything is better than what we have now.
also, there are trade offs on everything. i could just as easily ask you if your proposal requires a complete revamp of a current game mechanic. as usual, i feel that if we try to work closer in to the given system our suggestion might have more chances for success.
so even if you like another system better, this thread was for ideas and i proposed an alternate idea that might be easier to implement or i could be wrong entirely, either way it hurts not to have many ideas. community agreement on any idea has rarely amounted to implementation in cb land. ; )
May 22 2009 3:19 PM EDT
"Any changes to the exbow need to help vs archers."
"It needs to be quick, as about 35-40% of all battles end in missile rounds."
I think that is a problem in itself. I think that number should be 20% max. Jon tried to fix this by reducing damage output but it wasn't quite enough.
"Another large % ends before round 15."
Well, my poison version would extend that by a few rounds and that can make all the difference.
Dudemus, I like your version of poisoning too... but I prefer mine. :P
May 22 2009 3:19 PM EDT
I think I may have come off a bit on the harsher side that I wanted.
Yes, I want ideas and critique.
Your idea has plenty of great merit.
Yes, my idea would require a bit of work, however some of it is already in the system via AMF and evasion. Just modifications to that system. I am no programmer and do not know if it is easy or hard to convert that to the exbow system.
Your system is certainly much easier to program.
The only thing I would like to see added is some factor at least accounting for the shooters strength.
It can be easily added to your system by some variable multiplied or added to the leech done.
But discussion is great, and I hope NS and/or Jon is paying attention.
I think the new official changemonth starts in 10 days.
And here is hoping any changes do not wait till the end of it.
"Then they could possibly learn 2M dex, 20 strength, use a x1000 +200 exbow and drain a lot of strength."
likely so, but then you get into gaining dex advantage and using other methods to start taking their number of hits down.
remember though that once the formula is in there, the drain factor can be played with easily enough. i only used the number i did to show how the system would work.
May 22 2009 3:26 PM EDT
"The only thing I would like to see added is some factor at least accounting for the shooters strength. "
Yeah, I agree too the more I think about it. But that could be implemented into my idea simply by modifying the amount of rounds needed to completely drain strength by relative STR comparison.
If shooting minion has more STR, drain per round is higher. If minion STR is lower, drain per round lowers. We start with 30 rounds total at equal strength and increase or decrease it using STR proportion between the 2 involved minions.
May 22 2009 3:27 PM EDT
... same with DEX.
June 12 2009 5:44 PM EDT
To the forefront given this is changemonth.
Please, please, please consider fixing it!!!
June 12 2009 5:55 PM EDT
I find it strange that your using AMF as a model. EC would seem like a better choice.
June 12 2009 6:05 PM EDT
How would you incorporate defender str, attacker str and exbow x in a EC type model of drain?
Well, EC does not incorporate the opponent's str/dex into the equation. I'm just suggesting a more linear approach to str drain.
But your suggestion is probably better the more I think about it. I don't want the game to turn into a str battle.
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