Tutorial: what's wrong and what should be done (in Debates)


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 31 2009 3:28 AM EDT

Seems like if some of the topics in the wiki page
http://www.carnageblender.com/wiki/Tutorial+discussion
aren't being discussed actively.

It seems to me someone good with story boarding should be building us a mock tutorial.

Flamey May 31 2009 4:23 AM EDT

* Fighting - mechanics and formulae of physical and magical combat
* Skill and Spell overview
* Minions (Hiring/Training)
* BA regen
* Store
* Fightlist
* Chat/CM/Forums (should be spoken about at the end of the tutorial)

We've got this right?

Start with #1. FIGHTING
a) Magical damage - train
b) Physical damage - buy weapons.

Simple! There we go, one massive flaw in the tutorial!

c) Using DD overrides weapons
d) Win, draw, stale and loss - 1 sentence explanation.
e) Move on if you lose more than twice to the same person.

So that's #1 for me, let's discuss, so we can get some summary going for section 1 :)

AdminShade May 31 2009 7:05 AM EDT

what should be done?

First of all, someone should get through the tutorial and see which choices are given currently. This is the information part of the work.

Then we should try to get together a sort of blueprint of what the new tutorial should be about. (i.e. give someone the choice between amount of minions or give the choice between tank / mage based tutorial and have it reflect upon that choice.) This is the development part of the work.

Then it should be implemented and have some people test it. This is the testing part of the work.

Then last bugs should be removed. This is the finishing part.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] May 31 2009 7:10 AM EDT

The tutorial actually works fairly well as it is right now. If people actually follow how it works. What I think should be done about it is that it should be moved to a tournament char. Then you don't allow them to do whatever they want for this char. Just have them follow the steps in the tutorial. Then when they finish it, which if followed correctly takes maybe 5 minutes, the character is auto retired and they start their normal character. Then they have all their goals still and chat starts normally.

AdminShade May 31 2009 7:17 AM EDT

The main problem is this though:

"If people actually follow how it works."



The new players aren't being given any choice, and if they don't follow how it works, they are stuck and can't go back because they don't know how.


The tutorial should be made smarter in this case because you are required to enlist 1 additional minion, making you a 2 minion character, to continue.
However then you should train Magic Missile but most of the times people don't even have experience for it. Then they continue and are asked to enlist _yet another minion_... BAD IDEA so to speak...
This makes you being in a strange loop and they don't know what to do because they don't know what 'fire' means.

The tutorial definitely needs some work, all we need first is an idea on what to actually improve and how far we can go with it.

QBOddBird May 31 2009 11:04 AM EDT

It's rather difficult to implement a tutorial that is easy to follow, explains a LOT of information in a short period of time, and is dynamic according to how the player decides to proceed...

I still think we should remove the tutorial altogether, return the Mentors program with restrictions/incentives, and PUT THE NEW PLAYERS IN CHAT FROM THE START.

This game is BASED on the Chat, but lots of new players need assistance from an admin before they can ever get in. That's a serious, severe flaw.

QBRanger May 31 2009 11:10 AM EDT

The tutorial should include things as explaining the store, how BA works, how training works, auctions, the basic spells/skills, how the left frame is setup. Also, it should clearly state the "get more" button and how it is free for the duration of the NUB. It should also explain the NUB, why it is there and when it runs out.

Also, there should be an explaination of what supportership does and give them a link at the end of the tutorial to become one.

However it should not force you to buy something other than the base whip to get your first xp. Nor should it force you to buy another minion, or train a specific spell/skill.

Also, one should be allowed into chat right after the tutorial. To a new players room, where 1 or 2 ops are there to help guide the player and answer questions. It is quite obvious in the first few minutes if a player really wants help or is here to mess around.

I feel it should keep you on the single mage fireball path for the first hours. It is the easiest to run, and the best way to get a bit of money. Then, after being in chat and getting ideas, they can changes as they want. Buying minions after 1 day will not put them anymore behind having 4 at the start. Changing to tank after 1 day will not also slow them down.

Flamey May 31 2009 11:13 AM EDT

It should also have a tutorial glossary. All the terms used in the tutorial. Just have it a temp link in the sidebar like the goals are (I think) and make it a wiki page.

Shade, do you think modifying it is the best bet or just redoing it? Would it be possible if we had access to the tutorial, now that you're a fulladmin.

AdminShade May 31 2009 11:18 AM EDT

Basically anyone creating a new account would have access to the tutorial. Even I myself don't see any way (except for being helped by NS or Jon) on how to get those things.



Most people seem to agree that the tutorial has to be kept very simple. At this moment we're being taught many things in the tutorial, perhaps even too many.


Why tell someone to get 2 minions and make them get 2 when most only would want 1 to begin with? (which is hard enough)

AdminShade May 31 2009 11:26 AM EDT

To really make my point, I think the tutorial could look something like this:


1: Explain how to make a character
2: Explain how to make a minion
3: Explain how to use the store (by buying a weapon)
4: Explain how to equip the weapon

5: Explain how to fight, make them fight a few battles (to 3 wins or so)
6: Explain how to train stats like HP DX and ST to become stronger

7: Explain about possibilities to train spells as well (in which is explained that Direct Damage Spells, like Fireball, will be used instead of weapons)

8: Explain about the help section and forum parts for questions.
9: Explain about chat which should be available after tutorial has finished for additional questions.

10: Allow the player to fight some more battles, train once more, and end the tutorial


Apart from these 10 steps, some might be worth adding. But as for the real basics, what else would a new player really _need_ to start?
What I mean, you don't need to be explained what a tattoo artist or forging is to start the game, neither are most other things relevant at this stage, people can ask those things when they have chat and / or forums.

QBOddBird May 31 2009 11:31 AM EDT

Perhaps it should explain the VERY basics only - this button does this, that one does that - and then link to a newbie guide Wiki page and put them in Chat.

Then they can look over the guide and get advice from players, instead of having to figure and fumble their way through an awkward tutorial.

Rawr May 31 2009 11:33 AM EDT

how about little bubbles that appear when the mouse hovers over a button that explains what the button does; these bubbles can be turned on or off in setting

AdminShade May 31 2009 12:23 PM EDT

OddBird: the problem with explaining just that is that it might be too little and making the new player feeling as being dropped into a game...

QBOddBird May 31 2009 1:25 PM EDT

That's what the newbie guide would be for.

"OK, so I know what these buttons do, but that's all...and here's a guide on how to play and what is and isn't a good idea!"

DERPA [Red Permanent Assurance] May 31 2009 3:22 PM EDT

Dump them into chat right away with two chatmails or alerts. One about multiple accounts, other on PG in chat.

Fatil1ty May 31 2009 4:17 PM EDT

allow people in chat right away first of all and second I think early game needs fixing before the tutorial is done. There are too many spells and things to learn at the beginning it overwhelms people. Limit a new player to only training dex, str, hp, FB, and AS at the beginning for example. As a player levels chatmail messages could inform them of new spells as they become available making it much easier to learn and ease into the game. It also provides short term goals to players which this game sorely lacks.

Flamey June 1 2009 1:26 AM EDT

No need to censor what they can see, fat. I reckon when you're talking about minion/character limitations you say:

"Your minion can train ST/HP/DX, 1 skill, 1 EO spell, 1 DD spell, 1 ED spell. However DD spells override weapons making ST/DX useless."

It'd be too difficult (long) to talk about Tanks/mages/enchanters. Getting in to serious study and liking to learn, I know that especially for something that's made for leisure everything needs the logic "Short and sweet". No rantings, rantings and discussing should be optional, fundamentals need to be forced on them, everything else needs to be linked in a nice wiki page.

We're trying to capture their attention, not enrol them in a class of study of this random game named CB.

Note: I for one am not letting this topic die and will keep bumping it to get responses.

Fatil1ty June 1 2009 1:36 AM EDT

oh I didn't mean to suggest anythign that would force discussion and confusion. I just meant that not allowing a person to train EVERYTHING at the very beginning would let people learn basic spells and learn the game before being exposed to the full potential of the game strategy.

Flamey June 1 2009 2:04 AM EDT

Following shade's idea of sticking to one minion, I don't imagine it'd be too bad if they saw everything.
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