Chat about tattoos. (in General)

Here are the latest stats on tattoos:
Jigorokano Familiar 414 $4,215,228 $-69,957
Rune of Enlightenment 306 $11,030 $788,970
Halidon Familiar 137 $27,195,184 $-9,690,333
Rune of Solitude 212 $16,280,123 $190,602
Rune of Balrog Flame 212 $16,269,372 $-732,163
Steel Familiar 189 $14,835,828 $-18,056
Tattoo of Augmentation 344 $11,630,408 $-649,763
Electric Familiar 77 $11,507,636 $171,901
Tattoo of Endurance 284 $5,568,283 $133,194
Fire Familiar 230 $4,920,260 $175,655
Ice Familiar 133 $4,003,346 $121,858

I think we can classify them into 4 groupings.

1) The HF. Has the highest average NW. It does seem to be a very powerful tattoo with its multihit ability/PTH. I do very much believe its PTH needs to be lowered by about 25-33%.

2) The RBF/SF/RoS/ToA/EF. All close to the same NW average 11-16M. Pretty well balanced IMO. The only 1 I would consider changing a bit is the RBF's evasion. It already has a special type of damage AND magic resistance.

3) The IF/FF/ToE. These need a boost. The ToE is fairly 1 dimensional. The IF and FF need a boost due to the spells they carry. More on those in a bit.

4) The JKF. Hard to grasp the true NW since there are a lot of lower level ones from early players just sitting abandoned.

Solutions?

1) Get rid of FB's friendly fire or make a new skill that is trained to 1/5th the FB level to get rid of its friendly fire.

2) Give CoC something to help it out. I would think perhaps a different damage form. Such as doing more damage to the minion in front and less to the back minion. It is a cone after all. Or perhaps boosting its range by 1. It is a "cone" after all:)

3) Give the ToE damage reduction vs GA.

4) JKF and also UC needs more of a linear damage function. That should be obvious to most people who know CB well.

we love you Ranger

I agree 100% with everything you've stated.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

Yes.

I agree with most of this but I think instead of a skill for FB it should be all DD Spells that have a skill @ 1/5th of Level like Archery to help with friendly fire. Honestly after a certain level or amount of time training you would think these Mages would have some level of expertise in it's use :-/

UC definitely needs to have a buff in some way to make it more useful and pointing out one fighter doing well for it does not make it disqualified for a buff merely unique. It's damage should have a bit more of a linear curve if only a slight one to make it a more viable skill. Admitted there are few that make it very far in the Martial Arts world but after a certain level they are extremely good. Maybe adding that in as a catch would be a nice buff. You get to a certain level and you unlock a linear damage curve :) .

The Toe Should have defense against GA but should also be useful for more useful than just the 2 - 3 mil range it needs some kind of buff as well. Maybe something along the lines of a stronger SS effect or something after a certain Tat level like after 3 mil you get a 1% boost to it so on and so forth ....just an idea.


Just my personal thoughts

I agree with Zenai on this one, he makes as many good points as Ranger does. Don't expect a fix for this yet though, Jon and NS are still testing the ExBow finally and we don't want to distract them from that.

The Hal gets stats, a minion, and bow with a NW that has to be almost 3/4 the NW of the tat itself. For the dd familiars to match it in raw power terms they'd have to be given massive dbs. I believe the Hal needs to be rethought completely.

I thought everyone said the Hal has the exbow as a natural foil, and even with recent exbow changes, Hal still gets beat up by it.

Can we make up our minds? Either the Hal is held in balance by the exbow (and that is OK), or the exbow is still too powerful and needs to be tweaked (and Hal then nerfed).

If the Hal did not have one of the most direct, debilitating foils in the game I would agree 100% that the Halidon should be knocked down a peg or two. I've used the other ranged familiars and they don't even come close since the Evasion change. Even if an FF didn't spray friendly fire in melee, the FF would still be useless due to tiny PL investments drawing off all the damage (and keeping even 20 HP minions alive) and other damage reducers making it not kill fast enough.

(These are all high-end observations -- Fireball still works just fine down the score ladder, and plenty of targets can still be found there...)

Does FB still need the splash damage?

I have always thought, after the first year of CB, that FB did not need friendly fire.

The first year of CB was quite chaotic with most single minions a FB mage.

With lower NW at the time, it was extremely effect.

Now, esp with PL and the TSA, FB is less than useful.

I should clarify -- I think FB has a place, even with PL, in that it can play "clean up" to reduce kill slots right from round 1. That place has been lessened, but it is still there.

Problem is, this game is about specializing MPR. Four FB mages would barely be able to even hit a 1:1 score/PR ratio at this point. So, the clean-up nature of FB needs to be augmented with a large familiar of a different type, another large mage, or, in the case of the RBF, hella damage reduction to last. And actually, in that case it is smarter to go with CoC, since it has all the spreadfire advantages without being as screwed by PL once you can make it to melee.

That's why I go FB/Halidon, and now basically any exbow team can eat my lunch once more folks catch on...

Agreed Sut.

I still believe the drain should be based upon damage done vs strength of the minion or familiar. Instead of current HP.

I think your right in that unless that is changed, leave the HF alone.

If it ever is, then we can type about lowering the HF PTH.

I really hoped to keep all negativity out of this thread, so Kevlar please do not reply.

And I thought about using a FF to clean up kill slots for my archer.

But with PL so abundant, and the TSA/HP minion out there, it was just not worth it.

Even without the friendly fire, FB is quite lost in the recent changes of CB.

Maybe FB should get a compensation of doing 150% damage to PL instead of just 90%. Or something to make it more useful, both as a spell and/or familiar.

Tanks are more powerful than mages because they naturally have more NW involved. This is flawed logic yes?

Now apply it to Hal. Hal has more "hidden NW" but therefore it's OP? It's a tank, it needs more NW. If you look at it's damage, it's not far from many of the DD familiars with the biggest DDs in the game, and huge GA weaknesses, except Hal strikes in ranged and loses much effectiveness in melee.

There is no real in game evidence (saying "that NW looks high" doesn't count) that says Hal's PTH should be lowered 20-30% (a number seemly plucked from thin air). Besides, Hal still gets eaten by GA and exbow. I really like where it is.

I really find most of these "virtual NW" a really bad representation of the tattoo's effectiveness. Seldom when building a team you build it based on "maximizing virtual NW" because obviously just throwing on a ton of NW won't make you win as much as a cohesive and synergic strategy.

That is a great point 3/4ths.

So we can keep the HF as it is.

But would you agree the IF/ToE/FF need a boost of some sorts?

There are very few people using them compared to the other tattoos.

Whilst the Ex bow can counter the Hal at the top it is still very good in the lower ranks, maybe too good.

I agree UC does not compare well to other forms of damage but is it supposed to?

Personally, I don't really see a reason to buff IF. CoC is a good DD, and it definitely still has it's place in CB.

I don't think FF should get a boost as much as I think FB should get a boost. Though, I don't know how. Jon has made it quite clear that the quick kill DD niche isn't to exist anymore. Perhaps, getting rid of FB all together and replacing it with something entirely different would be the boost that would benefit CB the most.

ToE is strange. I think the "boost" I would be interested in is to introduce a new DD counterpart tattoo. Shutting down one damage type with a tattoo is great, it allows you to invest the rest of your exp on the other damage types. Introducing a counterpart would add a much more balancing feel overall in CB, cause right now tanks are just too easy to kill.

And no, RoBF doesn't kill DD damage quite the way ToE annihilates physical damage.

I know a couple thing: 3/4ths rocks, and if we are engaging enough for Rubberduck to post, we are in heady atmosphere. (Seriously, do a study. Let's just say I watch what RD says.)

If the Hal is too strong at the lower levels, and needs a one-shot foil at the higher...then RD has spoken truly yet again. That's what I call the "score ladder imbalance". That's a tough one. Lower end is goofy-crazy anyway, but it's where the young 'uns join in. Got to be considered. But you can't have a super-delicate balance at the top that crumbles at lower levels. I'll trust Johnnywas to tell me about that. He keeps playing bottom-up, and has been for a while. His word is gold and always with a smile.

And I am intrigued by your post, 3-to-the-4. No conclusion. But such right-on points. Ye gads, we can't teach you a computer language quickly enough -- I'm excited for the future and expect to see your name embedded deeply in it. All of your points are RIGHT ON. But...now what?

I ask because I am a well-spoken child in the midst of this stuff and grandeur.

Proud to be a CBer right now. Really.

Also time to toss a pizza in the oven.

"I really hoped to keep all negativity out of this thread, so Kevlar please do not reply."

tsk tsk, Ranger you never cease to amaze. You don't own me, bub.

Sut do you go to melee with a lot of your fights? Or is the FB effective for you due to ending rounds in ranged?

kevlar, you just pinpointed things exactly, but I think they are sort of unique to me (that's not me being full of myself, which I am, that's me admitting the weaknesses of my stance.)

If it goes to melee? Probably a draw at best for me. My FB is big enough to eat through poseur PLs, which means in melee it is big enough that the rest of my team looks on in horror as their team-mate Joe roasts them (Then eats them. I'm sure that is what happens. Tasty.)

If it doesn't? On my targets? I'm not going to say I can't get beat in ranged (did someone mention Priestess? Or heck, Freed's amazing power?) But that ranged-to-melee interstice is key for me.

I'm just saying the friendly fire isn't necessarily what does it. A lot of other things happen in melee. Melee tanks become hella effective, for example. As they should.

Failure is a great example. The character, not my usual way of existing. He wins all he wants against me. How? Well, just pure genius, as far as I can tell.

RD on the Hal yeah I have tested that and seen the damage it can do at the lower levels but at the same time I have gotten eaten up as well from other lower fighters. The GA teams ate me alive, RoBF users with Evasion did a bangup job as well, anyone with decent DBs smacked me around as well, only the Mages seems to get pummeled at those levels.

On the UC actually yes I do believe it should do a bit better. Think about it like this, a good martial artist is able to break Boards and Bricks with their bare hands. They learn complex holds and maneuvers, meant to disable and even outright damage a person to the point of death. Breaking bones is not all that hard when you are trained and tempered in the practice of doing it, which is the case with UC or at least should be taken into consideration. Yes some indeed do not reach those levels of expertise but there are some that reach heights of incredible proportions, just to name a few Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Billy Blanks, Jet Li, Jackie Chan, Wesley Snipes, Steven Segal etc etc. The point is that yes few are able or even willing to push the UC status up that high without saying forget it, but there are others who say I will do it no matter what, these are the ones who should have this buff. Like I said bring it to a certain level and have something unlock to give them a boost.

3/4ths on the Toe that is an interesting Idea, I still think a slight buff should be instated to make it worth something after a certain Tat Level, honestly how many ToE's are past 3.5 - 4 Mil level? That should in itself tell you something is wrong, it's usefullness is minimal at those stages. On the Magical side well "A Tattoo of Magical Endurance" would be interesting indeed. How would you think it should be employed? Maybe a Reflection or Dissipation effect? A Foil besides DM for GA would indeed be an interesting feat!

ZUL, you just mentioned Chuck Norris second in a list of comma-delimited greatness.

God help you, and I hope I can have your stuff.

lol true but didn't Bruce Lee stomp him twice........ *shrugs*

Yes.

But Bruce Lee is dead.

The Beard is coming for you, and...wait, hey, what now? Who are you -- OH DEAR GOD! Bruce Lee? But you're de--.........Dude, that's my throat...and, oh, you don't want to do that...hurts...my...Osiran...vocal....

CORDS!

Kneel, plaything of SUTEKH! I'll shred your nervous system into a million fibers, you sniveling insect...and...

Oh, wow, jeez, five finger heart pound? Well, wow, I'm sorry, I never meant to...gurghhhheeeeettttlyyyurtyyyyy.

(Bruce Lee heads for the door. Next target? Z U L.)

O.O

Are Suth going mad or something? lol!

HAHAHAH

oh boy here we go.....appeases the Bruce Lee by proving is was born in the year of Dragon and therefore is a follower of the Dragon's Wisdom and Might!

Now back to the points I made with the Post I made previously. Any thoughts?



PS: Sut you are loco welcome to the Club.....lol

Zenai, having this buff for UC when it reach a sertain level is kind of... not CB?

I think UC needs a buff, in some way. Maybe we should have the same kind of buff you are talking about but instead of basing it on a fixed level have the minion get his "black-belt" or whatever if he trains more then 50% of his XP into UC?
Then you could say that he are really focused on mastering his art.

I don't know really, just posting first thing that came to my mind ^_^

(bloody Osiran fingers on a desk. a masked head. Must...reach...keyboard...)

Sure your point is fine. I just can't address it. Folks still seem unable to fathom I'm not that good at tactics. Your points are all very good, and it is all fine line.

A line like this piano...what? Piano wire? Around my neck? Tony Soprano??! Aren't you dead? Arghhhh, wait, grrrrulll... Don't stop believing!...gruggghhharg. Dude, you are really, really fat. *death gurgle* Chuck Norris save me!!!!!!!! Save Sutekh!!!!

Chuck's got you back, Sut, no worries. (old cb contest photo I made lol)

"Zenai, having this buff for UC when it reach a sertain level is kind of... not CB?

I think UC needs a buff, in some way. Maybe we should have the same kind of buff you are talking about but instead of basing it on a fixed level have the minion get his "black-belt" or whatever if he trains more then 50% of his XP into UC?
Then you could say that he are really focused on mastering his art. "


Once again like you I have no real idea how to properly suggest an implementation I went off the top of my head. Hmm well in all honesty BluBBen I could get that the first day, just train a lot of UC the first day and boom I get the buff. Longevity would be the kicker for me. How to make it work in a balanced way is a different deal. I would think maybe set it up to have maybe an "Innate Talent" set up in the Tat once you reach I dunno 3 - 5 mil in UC it kicks in and grows like your MTL but at a much slower Rate according to how much UC you train. The Innate Talent would be your Buff using a curve for your Damage it might be something viable. Dunno you guys tell me you are much better at things of this nature than me :-/

Um I meant in the Skill*....lol Dunno why I was bringing up the Tat, I guess the JKF needs some work too, under similar premise?

I still think that having a hard cap, say like you get a buff when you reach 5mill UC levels is not good.
Hard caps will soner or later be outdated here on CB.

I'm sorry that's all I have to say about it :-/ feels like I'm just negative without coming with any constructive critc.

But I think that a buff to UC should be some sort of extra attribute. Not just adding damage, evasion or pth. That would be boring. Unarmed combat is in my mind a very complex thing to use so when your minion is mastering it he would gain very many different things. I know UC already got two attributes, free NW and Evasion but I would like to see a third thing. Like giving it Endurance or something.

Get my idea?

Yeah I see where you are coming from BluBBen, but how to implement something like that......maybe a sliding scale in the Skill, this way the overall could be jacked up on it's own without getting outmoded or needing to be reset. Do UC on an overall from this amount at this level the Innate Talent Kicks in No Hard Cap :) Kinda like the way the N*B works I guess is what I am getting at. Plus yeah maybe a buff to Dex or Endurance would be optimal in this scenario. What do you think?

Someone has pointed out that my idea is a bit incoherent...lol

Here it goes, the N*B is regulated by the TOP 5 Chars MPR if I remember Right. Well If UC's Innate Talent (Second Nature?) were regulated the same way for when it kicks in then there would be no hard cap.

Lets say the Top 5 UC users have 5 Mil UC then use that as a way to regulate the point of Enlightenment say maybe 50 - 70% of that would be that point. Then the Innate Talent kicks in and starts to Grow similar to the MTL we already have, dependent though on solely on how much UC you train. Does this explain it a bit better?

This is actually a quite good idea!
Just as you said, it should be based around the average of the five highest UC and not by the highest only.(just imagine 3/4 deciding to go for UC, noone would reach this cap then ^_^)

Many people complain that UC is very good in low score but as you climb up the Score, PR, MPR ladder the UCs efectivity becomes less and less. Adding some sort of bonus to it when it grows large enough is a good way to combat this.

Good idea Zenai! =)

Any who think sut is *going* mad have been living under a rock.

Exhibit A

Oh man, I have to at least shamelesly promote the best thing I have ever written (from the same site):

WWSD?

That is probably the best collection of, well, "stuff" I have ever written.

The bonus? It is entirely off-topic. And not PG.

Wow, Sut. You had a good run, but I think it's time for euthanasia.

*frown*

*smile*

::inserts needle::

*smile*

the hal's pth suffers from the exact opposite problem as unarmed combats damage. uc's damage is on a cost curve whereas the hal's pth is linear.

uc will require adjustments over time or it will only get worse in comparison to all other damage, unless it is changed to a linear model.

hal's pth will only get better over time in comparison to all other pth as they cost more as you go higher.

in my opinion they both need to be brought in line with other models of their type for balance sake.

A couple of things:

HAL: +206 = 5,500,000 lvls. That's a little insane in terms of PTH. That's far more than you're afforded from a ToA at the same level. And the minion's HP and ST and Dex...OK, so 2.25 mill St and dex isn't actually very high but with junctioned boosts works out pretty well.

However, as well as the exbow being a weakness so too are more dex heavy tanks. A few of my fightlist are HALs, and I've only a +108 mageseeker, hitting doubles and sometimes triples. But I've a huge amount of dex which lets me reduce the HAL's strike rate quite nicely.

Add to that the HAL doesn't have the option to boost PTH like a real archer and it's not quite as uber as it appears. I'd still consider dropping the amount of PTH though...

DD familiar tattoos: They suffered somewhat from the change of junction from a skill to an amulet. Prior to the change you could boost the DD (and any AS provided HP) by using an AoF. While you still get a large DD, and you have the ability to junction NSCs you don't have the boosts that the AoF provided. I'd like to see something to replace that.

Just to illustrate, Ranger's HAL only does this in a round to my guy:

Hal shot Johnny Was [430503]
Hal hit Johnny Was [465616]
Hal hit Johnny Was [591148]

A triple strike, which is a lot less than I'd expect from a tattoo with what? 250 or so PTH? And look at that damage. That's pretty low, I do more damage than that in an average round from my mageseeker.

So actually not as uber as you'd think.

Sut's HAL hits me for quads, but the damage is still pretty low:

Hal shot Johnny Was [646603]
Hal shot Johnny Was [621923]
Hal shot Johnny Was [456090]
Hal shot Johnny Was [437860]

Granted, that's about 2 mill in a round, but compare that to the damage done by Ranger's ELB and see the difference...

what i meant to add to my earlier thread (i awoke too darned early!) was that if left the way they are the hal's pth and uc will need adjustments over time in relation to the rest of the game.

even if they aren't that far out of whack at the moment, as the game scales and tats double in mpr from today's values adjustments will need to be made. likewise, at triple today's mpr more adjustments will need to be made.

it seems simpler to me to just have them scale similarly to everything else in the game and do away with the need for constant adjustments.

My Hal is that much more than Ranger's? I thought they were about the same size, but maybe I have slightly better gear junctioned on... Interesting.

Our HF are about the same size.

However you junction EB while I junction BoF.

That extra dex makes a lot of difference.

Aha!

And just to show what my x7387 Mageseeker does: (admittedly with 9 million strength...)

Johnny Was shot WAR with Blackthorn [683671]
WAR's Guardian Angel smote Johnny Was (41238)
Johnny Was hit WAR with Blackthorn [681741]
WAR's Guardian Angel smote Johnny Was (41539)
Johnny Was shot WAR with Blackthorn [849658]
WAR's Guardian Angel smote Johnny Was (41895)

The Mageseeker has a base of 5, the HF uses a ELB equivalent with a base of 6.

That makes tons of difference in damage.

My HF has about 6.2 million strength, and in the first round before my enchanter dies, it has about 7 million strength due to the BoF I use.

Does make a ton of difference, but looking at your damage does suggest the damage side of the Hal's ELB is not overpowered.

Yes and no.

It is all very relative.

How much damage does novice's SF do in the first couple rounds compared to the HF?

But someone did make a great point that once melee begins, the DD familiars do tons of damage while the HF has a nice penalty to hit.

Just as long as that familiar isn't a FF. Then you have some penalty to look forward to..

Yes,

Let us get rid of the splashback damage!!

*grabs pitchfork*

Seriously, it needs to get rid of backslash or get some other large buff.

Seeing as how I have the 2nd highest FF in the entire game... yes, yes indeed.

Well having a Skill or Once again me with this "Innate Talent" thing could come into play at a certain level.

Here it goes, the N*B is regulated by the TOP 5 Chars MPR if I remember Right. Well If Whatever DD or Skill's Innate Talent (Second Nature?) were regulated the same way for when it kicks in then there would be no hard cap. The curve would be created then for whatever you may need as a buff to whatever Skill/DD Spell.

Lets say the Top 5 users of Whatever Skill/DD Spell "Blah" Mil Trained then use that as a way to regulate a point of "Enlightenment/Expertise" say maybe 50 - 70% of the Average of the Top 5 Users would be that point. Then the Innate Talent kicks in and starts to Grow similar to the MTL we already have. This however would be dependent solely on how much of the Skill/DD Spell you train rather than anything else like HP, STR, or Dex.

In the Case of Fire Ball the Backsplash Damage would be reduced because of Expertise in said DD Spell.

In UCs Case Maybe a Buff to Damage or Added Dex/Endurance.

For CoC maybe a Front to back Buff in Damage.

ToE could get a buff to assist with Resistance to GA Damage.


The other Tats/Runes/Familiars/DD Spells/Skills could/should get something as well but once again that is up to people smarter than me.

Honestly though the sky is the limit with this thought.......