NCB vs Nem. (in General)
I've stopped caring for most of this NCB whining. Why? Because of Nem. Nem is constantly showing me that the NCB is still very much alive and still a practical way to become competitive.
If you didn't know, Nem is in Iraq right now, he has been since september. Late January, when he started getting internet. Really unreliable horrible internet, but still internet, so he started an NCB.
Know this: Nem is not a USD spender, he does not buy BA and he does not burn all his BA. He estimates he has burned maybe 60-70% of his natural BA. He says it took him 8 days to burn his initial 1600 BA. He doesn't even have a good clan bonus.
He also started with almost no equipment, literally a few hundred (not thousand) CBD and a very small tattoo. This is because he sent all his money and valuable equips to me to fund our monstrosity of an NCB.
He strategy I would argue is very sub optimal, it uses a Jiggy and relies on it for offense, even prior to the introduction of the AoJ.
Where he is now? He estimates his NCB will stop at about 3 million MPR, I'm guessing only a few hundred thousand MPR from 6 BA and the competitive zone. He's made over 50 million CBD throughout the NCB in which he's invested and funded equips.
Why is this a success story? Cause he's gotten so far, with almost nothing. He's shown how far we can go when we DON'T buy BA and we DON'T have a huge tattoo and we DON'T burn all our BA. Just imagine if he wasn't so far from home and the condition actually favored him.
So instead of saying the NCB is flawed, I say the user base is incompetent. The biggest difference between Nem and normal users is that Nem knows how to find targets and specialize like no other. He spends A LOT of time looking for targets in his free time and crunching numbers to see what he needs to do to maintain a high challenge bonus. I'm pretty sure he's held the largest stable challenge bonus than anyone else in the game. He makes small fightlists so he can maximize his reward advantage. He says that he had 100% CB til about 1.6 mil MPR. He is currently holding a 39-43% challenge bonus for his fights.
Nem is also incredible at investing. He's used his market sense and his high rewards coupled together to greatly increase his income. He's even told me that the reward drop doesn't bother him at all, which is good enough for me to stop caring.
If you want a top spot, and high MPR I think it's very possible. I just don't see people spending the time and playing as effectively as they need to be. So instead of criticizing the NCB ask yourself this.
1.) How well are you holding your challenge bonus? Do you have more targets at lower challenge bonuses than you need to? Is your strategy designed to specialize? Are you sure you have the best targets you can possibly have?
2.) Is your strategy NW efficient? Where are you spending your money? Are you buying your BA at the right times? You don't need to buy it throughout your NCB.
3.) How much time did you waste in early game (1-200k MPR)? A year ago Nem made 200k MPR on his first day. Single minion reached 150k on his first day. We planned our targets BEFORE we started the NCB for single minion. Used a Gi early on and pretty much pull out every trick in the book to maximize our potential. Too many people waste anything up to a week of their NCB getting into a stable late early game.
4.) Do you have a growth plan? Obviously some strategies are better early game than late game, and retraining accordingly and hiring at opportune moments is vital to maintaining a proper Challenge bonus (UC and Hal are amazing early game, DM is currently the flavor of the month in challenging up). Retraining penalties are easily offset by preventing a downscale of rewards. VERY FEW people do this.
If you aren't doing any of these things, it's pretty clear why you aren't doing as well as you think you are entitled to. If anyone did these things in a smart an effective way, I'm sure you would find yourself in a very safe and competitive region without needing to resort to USD. Of course result improve with more money, but it doesn't matter if you buy 20% more BA if you're getting 20% less rewards than you could be.
It's a lot of effort, but that's something that's expected when you put the last 4.5 years of playing nonstop into 6 months.
while i don't disagree, there is a vast cost differential between getting 60 percent of the top mpr and 95 percent of the top mpr. personally i am okay with that cost differential but i can see why others are not. i am just tickled to have the free option over the utter lack of any option in cb1.
August 3 2009 10:30 AM EDT
I agree with the whine that NCB costs are high if you want to do the whole buy your whole BA thing, but otherwise you're right. I've been a lazy player, but I've always managed to maintain a high challenge bonus and with a lot of my chars have ended up fighting within the top 50 in the standings, with a much lower MPR than a lot of my opponents. I'd love to start from scratch with a NUB but with the knowledge and really go for it....
There is an attitude in CB, one that's been there a while, that everything should be handed to you on a plate. Even some of the hard working players have it, it's one that I've always hated. People aren't prepared frankly to put in the work.
You did forget that actually to get your given BA doesn't actually require much logging in. Twice a day, perhaps three times at most will get you all the given BA. I know because I don't miss any given BA and I have a full time job and a new baby at home!
The ultimate question is if you could get 95% top MPR if you ran it PERFECTLY. Perfectly includes buying 100% BA. It also requires keeping a incredibly high challenge bonus, and a really high clan bonus.
I don't think non USD spenders are entitled to a Perfect NCB. Which I think is fair. Jon never said, everyone should get 95% MPR.
August 3 2009 10:33 AM EDT
If your content to be in the top 30-40 score, the NCB is great where it is.
However, if you want to get to the top 10 or even top 5, the current system is quite flawed.
Again, there is a difference between hard work and impossible.
Nobody is adking for it to be easy, just possible.
From my experiences with Single minion, I felt top ten MPR was possible then. Remember Toast? He kept up with Single minion without being cheap, but it required him to buy all his BA.
I really don't see how things are different if one bought all BA now. Heck, the score system was readjusted midway through his NCB. If he had it throughout he would have been up there with LA.
In case you were wondering, Single minion made many strategic choices to not optimize MPR growth, he could have easily surpassed LA had he not been single minion. We knew that that wouldn't have sat really well with the community though, so we didn't do that.
Yeah, Toast and Single minion had to deal with the dead zone. Life is much easier without it.
August 3 2009 10:42 AM EDT
But how much MPR did you make by the character transfers?
Are you suggesting people are forced to do that also?
August 3 2009 10:43 AM EDT
Actually, everyone just saw Jon say 95% way back when and/or saw others saying he did and now they expect to hit close to that as long as they login a few times a day. With enough planning and preparation, top 10 is well within the realms of possible via NCB.
I mostly agree with the OP.
The major problem I see with running a NCB is challenge bonus drying up too early, I did think a while ago that part of a successful strategy for making a run at the top would involve a recruitment campaign ahead of time :P (idea shelved due to tutorial issues)
But I just pointed to Toast who kept up with us. And said that character Xfers could make some far surpass the 95% MPR with impractical costs.
I don't understand where you are pulling out my conclusions.
August 3 2009 10:56 AM EDT
It's already been proven that you can hit 95% or more of Top MPR if you buy your BA. So I am not sure what you are trying to prove.
Most NUB's will not be able to achieve this unless they are a multi and come in on day one with a solid plan. They will waste their first couple of weeks trying to figure the game out.
August 3 2009 11:00 AM EDT
I do not remember Toast. Sorry.
I do see how the current NUBs are doing and even they cannot get to 95% of the top MPR with free BA.
Z will not even get to 90% of the top MPR buying all the BA.
If your goal is to get to the top 50 MPR, you may make it without buying much BA. And one can be quite competative at that level.
However if you want to get to the top 5-10, there is no way.
There are plenty of people maximizing their strategies and who have a growth plan. Who do not waste time in the beginning. And who hold a CB as long as possible.
Yet they fall far short of 95% of the top MPR.
If you want to be near the top, but not at it, the NCB currently is fine.
So what about those that want to get to the top, who "wasted" their first attempt-the NUB.
Jon has stated numerous times the N*B if maximized BA would get you to 95% of the top MPR.
Right now the cost for NCB is prohibitively too expensive to do that.
3/4ths, you are typing about one thing while most of us are typing about another.
3M MPR for most people would be ok. But for those wishing to make a top run, it is no where close to what is needed.
This was just a response to people saying that is impossible to create a competitive character with the NCB. Cause they think they need to buy all their BA.
It's also pointing a finger at those whom claim that the it is *impossible* to reach 95% MPR with an NCB. Whom don't realize that people have been far from running a real "perfect" N*B. Practicality has nothing to do with this particular claim.
August 3 2009 11:00 AM EDT
"They will waste their first couple of weeks trying to figure the game out."
--This is what happened to me, for about a week. You can see it in the history graph. It took awhile to get the hang of things, and learn the different strategies and item specialties.
Now if you want to argue that it should be easier to get 95% top MPR than take that argument elsewhere. I'm just saying it's possible.
And please stop intermingling top spot and top MPR. You of all people should understand there is a real difference.
August 3 2009 11:10 AM EDT
"This was just a response to people saying that is impossible to create a competitive character with the NCB. Cause they think they need to buy all their BA.
It's also pointing a finger at those whom claim that the it is *impossible* to reach 95% MPR with an NCB. Whom don't realize that people have been far from running a real "perfect" N*B. Practicality has nothing to do with this particular claim. "
This is 2 different things.
I have not read each and every post about the N*B. However, I do not think many if anyone is saying you cannot run a competitive character without buying BA. Even I think that is a foolish statement.
But.. If you want to make a top run, you have to buy all your BA or close to it.
People have been running very good if not perfect NCBs for a while. Z is running one, little + on his weapons to keep the MPR down, fighting as high as possible. But even with buying BA, I doubt he will get to 90% of the top MPR.
Rawr ran a great NUB and got to only 90% or so of the top MPR. Show me someone who in the last year got to 95% of the top MPR.
I see your character, Single Minion as the top "newest" one the past year. Rawr's is the next if I see corectly.
You "fudged" a bit with character transfers.
I hope nobody is saying you cannot have fun playing in the middle-top ranks. Even hell in the lower ones.
But for those with the desire and drive to make a top run, the cost of the NCB is prohibitively too expensive.
We would like it to be possible, not impossible.
Mission very difficult. Not Mission Impossible.
I think what we're really arguing about is what "competitive" and "top spot" means. I feel that anything about 6 BA is competitive and top spot is a score dependent concept. I felt Heroes was a competitive and top spot character even if its MPR wasn't amazing.
Now the next question I feel is: So 95% MPR is possible. Why should it need to be easier to achieve it? Says who? Does a hard system imply that it is a system that needs to be fixed?
August 3 2009 11:26 AM EDT
3/4ths, that is the question.
One that Jon has answered many times. Should a NCB have a chance to get to 95% without spending hundreds of millions of CB on BA.
There are both sides to that discussion.
I feel the cost is too excessive, but have little solutions since Jon directly wants xp gained to be equal to NW spent on BA. Which is a decent syatem.
However, I personally want new players in the top ranks, challenging me to be my best.
I would like it to be expensive but not prohibitively so to make it to the top spot/rank.
One does not need the top MPR to be the top character, however, one does need a decent MPR to challenge for it. Right now I am at the limit for Heroes given its MPR.
But I hope we both agree that competitive and top spot are 2 vastly different things. And not the same.
I think someone can be competitive at 2M MPR if they want, fighting higher characters. IF that is what they want to do.
But there are some who wasted their NUB who want now to try a run at the top.
The NCB BA cost makes that impossible.
So their options.
1) Try to do as much as they can with the money they have.
2) Do not even try.
3) Multi as many have.
Nobody is asking for it to be easy. Just make it possible.
There is 1 other option Ranger. Try to make as much money as possible.
August 3 2009 11:59 AM EDT
The entire opening argument is... for lack of a better word... offensive... if not even repulsive.
First off, no, Nemeritz's "Mr. Jiggy" character will not end up "somewhere around 3 mil MPR", he'll be lucky to end up at 2.75 mil MPR (basically, 54% of top MPR), which, if he continues to grow at a similar rate, will need almost ANOTHER YEAR to make it into 6/20.
Also, no, he's not "so much more competent" than anybody else... at least not with the ways scores are nowadays. The really difficult part is not getting insanely high challenge bonus targets up 2 mil MPR or so, almost anybody could do that by mere trial and error... the difficulty lies beyond 3 mil MPR, which we already established he's not going to see at all.
You make it sound as if he is doing something spectacular, while he isn's doing anything special at all, he's proceeding exactly as expected. The higher you go, the harder it is to maintain your growth rate, true, but the OPPOSITE is also true - the less BA you burn, the easier it is to maintain a very high growth rate compared to burned BA. In other words, he's not doing much better as expected given the circumstances, he's actually doing EXACTLY as expected given the circumstances, and almost anybody else with the least bit of care doing the same thing could do the same.
And finally, while the result he is going to acheive might be satisfactory to him, or maybe even look admirable to your biased eyes... the result itself however, it's nothing I would ever consider halfway acceptable, let alone desirable. Yes, sure, his internet is bad and yada yada yada, it still doesn't change the facts.
And facts are, 2.75 mil MPR is a BAD ending for a NCB, and he would have ended up at around 3.3 mil MPR if he would have affordedd to buy all BA.
I mentioned at the start the fact your opening post was offensive, even repulsive, so let me repeat and clarify why I said it.
It's because you seem to be placing the blame on the community for being stupid, greedy and inefficient as the main reason a NCB run is unsuccesfull... as opposed to the fact that even if you run a THEORETICALLY PERFECT NCB (as in, keep 100%CB for as long as possible, fighting up to, then including, then ONLY the top score character, so you couldn't possibly hope for better CB%s) with full BA purchase, and you STILL can't make it to 95% of top MPR... while on the other hand, reaching a 6/20 with a NCB should be a trivial matter even if you don't buy any BA and don't have a particularly good target selection - all you'd really need to do is keep fighting to burn most of your naturally regenerated BA.
Should I not feel offended and repulsed by your post ?
So I ask again... what was the point of your thread ?
August 3 2009 12:04 PM EDT
Also, another thing... if MPR is so "lacking in meaning" that even 60% of top MPR is "ok enough" by your standards... then what do you have against a NCB not only reaching, but GOING OVER the top MPR ?
Heck, by your own logic, even if the NCB would reach something like 166% of previous top MPR, the former top MPR character would still "be competitive". I mean, since MPR seems to not matter much for you, you know.
As to why that would be good as opposed to bad ?
Because a stagnant top with an unchanging strategy is bad.
Because stagnation is bad.
Because lack of opportunities to not just match, but SURPASS the top would be bad.
Care to deliver a counter-argument that doesn't shoot itself in the foot ?
August 3 2009 12:08 PM EDT
I would argue that a perfectly run NCB (as in, always fight the highest possible targets, buy all BA and so on and so forth) without any minion purchases should be able to reach not just 95%, but instead 125% of the top MPR.
Also, that minion purchase should be fixed cost past a certain MPR (say 1 mil CB$) and grant only a maximum of 340k XP (28k levels, give or take).
August 3 2009 12:14 PM EDT
maybe the question would be why should everyone be able to hit 95% of the top MPR :) ( considering NUB is already gimped by inexperience )
"I would argue that a perfectly run NCB (as in, always fight the highest possible targets, buy all BA and so on and so forth) without any minion purchases should be able to reach not just 95%, but instead 125% of the top MPR"
Explain that to Poison please ;)
August 3 2009 12:38 PM EDT
I guess things are dependant on what your definition of a "great" NCB run is.
A) Getting to 6 ba regeneration. Currently about 3.1M MPR.
B) Getting to 95% of the top MPR. Currently about 4.6M MPR.
C) Somewhere in between.
Most people would likely choose C. However there are a few that would choose and want B. Right now that is almost impossible given the cost of a NCB run to choice B.
One can easily do A without buying much if any BA, if you use all your native BA and get a great 1600 BA start.
One can get to B if and only if they spend 160+M CB2.
One can do C if you spend some CB2. But will most likely end up near A rather than B.
Again, nobody is asking for B to be easy, or even difficult. But certainly not impossible.
And PoisoN has the same opportunity to do a NCB as anyone else if he feels he character is being passed over by other N*Bers.
Jon even stated that characters are crap. In those exact words.
But to assume that most people doing a NCB are stupid is a bit myopic. I think most have a plan they believe is a great one, given their NW ability and work with it. Nobody I know starts a NCB with a true "run for the top" without a plan they think is a great one.
I do disagree with Sickone in that a perfect N*B run should only get to 95% of the top MPR. No more.
August 3 2009 12:39 PM EDT
Quite honestly, I don't give two spits about anything in this thread. Once you insult the community and call the lot of us incompetant, then I have no reason to talk with you. While it might not matter much, you've lost a great deal of respect in my eyes 3/4th.
August 3 2009 12:43 PM EDT
This is a very heated debate.
Let us not please call each other names, or insults.
I think 3/4ths was trying to make a point and others took offense to it.
Knowing him, I hope it was nothing personal but yet another rant of sorts on a touchy subject. A venting of sorts.
How about a beer at my house to solve all the world's and CB's problems?
I would go with Bass Ale though. Most American beer except perhaps Sam Adams suck.
August 3 2009 12:45 PM EDT
And most important to Nem, in Iraq:
This is why it is a success story, Sickone.
"Why is this a success story? Cause he's gotten so far, with almost nothing. He's shown how far we can go when we DON'T buy BA and we DON'T have a huge tattoo and we DON'T burn all our BA. Just imagine if he wasn't so far from home and the condition actually favored him. "
He's just a hair away from 6 BA with no real advantage but really good target picking, something I feel many people in this game have not mastered. Or are too lazy to bother. So imagine if he actually bought BA anywhere in his NCB? What if he actually had equipment to begin with? He actually planned it? An extra 1 million MPR for a grand total of 4 million MPR doesn't seem that impossible. 80% top MPR, yeah I think that's plenty competitive and with the right exp distribution could easy break the top ten.
I think 4 million MPR is not that hard for anyone that really tried. Not like buying all BA and do everything perfect kind of try. I mean, just playing smart and having a good strategy. You have to know when buying BA is cost efficient and when it isn't. And of course burn all your natural BA.
That's a fair system in my opinion. Of course grabbing that last 1 mil MPR to pass Mikel gets exponentially more expensive, but why shouldn't it? But that's kind of a different argument altogether.
Again, my point is that competitiveness is not as ridiculously hard as people play it up to be. In my opinion, the last few months have run pretty disappointing NCBs. Really fun strategies, but no shock and awe. And for some reason the community is playing it up by saying the NCB system is broken.
Don't forget Relic's character Toast, I passed his MPR by 50k, our NCBs ended at about the same time. A like 7 months later, not a single NCB has passed him even with a bigger NCB bonus and the elimination of the dead zone. I haven't really seen anyone do those before mentioned 4 NCB growth strategies at all. I mean, if everyone is getting less of a challenge bonus than Nem during their NCBs, that's not a great sign that we're running great NCBs.
I'm pretty convinced that CB isn't running the best planned NCBs that it used to. And I'm pretty sure we have to acknowledge that when we say the system is horribly flawed or something like that.
August 3 2009 12:53 PM EDT
"I think 4 million MPR is not that hard for anyone that really tried. Not like buying all BA and do everything perfect kind of try. I mean, just playing smart and having a good strategy."
Who has gotten to 4M MPR lately?
Just you and Rawr are the only 2 I can think of. And you had help with yours.
If it was possible to get to 4M MPR without buying most BA, I think most people would be ok. But it is not.
And I am starting to take offense to your statements about people not playing a NCB with a proper strategy. Many are using well known and trusted strategies.
With NW/PR one can only maximize NW so much.
Take offense... to the truth?...
Come on Ranger.
August 3 2009 1:03 PM EDT
It is not the truth.
People plan NCBs. I have people all the time discussing their NCB strat to maximize its potential.
Yea, some half hartedly make a try and fail, duh.
But there are plenty who try with a good strategy and fail as well.
We ought to not be scared of new people at the top but try to welcome them.
Let us see how Z does the next couple months. Would you not agree that strategy is extremely effective?
I'm really trying not to offend, perhaps I'm getting frustrated. Sorry about that.
I'm debating of trying to explain why I feel there is a decline in strategy. It has to do with a lot of things, including the wiki. But that'll probably get too off topic.
But lets just say I find the fact that Nem can hold a challenge bonus better than the most of CB frightening. Considering my opinions of UC and the Jiggy.
Sure it is... and it's working very well.
The point of the post was to make clear that strat and efficient fighting are still the #1 contributor to how well your NCB does.
August 3 2009 1:11 PM EDT
Then get your strat together novice, retire Dagobah and run it without buying BA or spending outside sources of money. Show all of us who obviously don't know what we're doing how easy it is to break into the Top 10 without a heavily funded team.
Top 5 is a bit different than being competitive. But I bet a person could get to top 20 in more or less that situation. And by tops I mean score wise.
Breaking the top 10 isn't actually that hard. Why is that? Because everyone is terrified of retraining. Just jump in with something new and effective, and no one really wants to invest or adapt to what you have. All you need is a pretty good (but different!) strategy and decent MPR (I would say anything above 3.5 mil MPR depending on your exp distribution).
Actually, exp distribution is more important than raw exp. Cause it doesn't matter if you have 2 more million levels than someone else if you can't put it in a place that benefits you.
We need CB to be more accessible, to more players. Call it 'easier' if you want (which would be wrong).
If CB is to survive, and grow, then actually playing the game needs to be less of a massive planning mission over months to years, before you actually *get* to play.
But we could keep it as is, and watch more New Users join, then leave, and more older players just give up.
Currently, CB is more of an elitist gentlemans club, than an accessible web based MMO.
Which will continue to strangle the game.
But hey, what do I know, I'm just incompetent.
August 3 2009 1:17 PM EDT
"Breaking the top 10 isn't actually that hard."
Reeeeallly.... And why again is it that so many players are unable to do that? Heck, even Ranger's new team hasn't broken the Top 10, in terms of MPR, and he led it for most of CB's life.
Fair enough, GL. But wouldn't the best way to get new players into the game be to simplify it, make the learning curve less steep. I think that's what makes it so hard for new players to get into the game. I don't see how the N*B makes it harder for new players, or would turn them away.
I don't like the thought of CB becoming an elitist game though, but that is how it is becoming. But it has a lot of things going against it: no graphics, an outdated wiki, and a difficult tutorial. I remember the interface breaking my head. Sometimes if feels like it only appeals to people whom have some sort of nostalgia for text based games. I dunno.
When I say breaking the top ten, i mean breaking the top ten score.
August 3 2009 1:31 PM EDT
Would not a Rolling Bonus solve all these problems?
And shut the community up about how fair or unfair the current system is?
August 3 2009 1:33 PM EDT
Two Excerpts from the NCB thread that you refuse to think is filled with any intellectual thought:
I see no reason why even the Top 10 MPRs can't be worried about possibly having someone come up into their quiet little solitude and play with the big boys.
Score doesn't mean squat. Its very easy to have a high score. My team is at 1.4mil MPR and has a 4.2mil Score, and its not even played well. MPR shows who is really doing the best due to their growth.
August 3 2009 1:34 PM EDT
I would argue otherwise. What's really showing how well you do, at least high up, is your score. Not MPR.
August 3 2009 1:46 PM EDT
Double tapping someone much higher up and falsely elevate someone's score.
But while it is not perfect, it is the best measure of how a character is doing.
I just wish double tapping did not give you a full score addition.
"I think 4 million MPR is not that hard for anyone that really tried. Not like buying all BA and do everything perfect kind of try. I mean, just playing smart and having a good strategy. You have to know when buying BA is cost efficient and when it isn't. And of course burn all your natural BA."
I pretty much did this and only got around 3.5 mill MPR. I even bought BA a few times (5-10) during exp time and I burned as much natural BA as possible while trying to hit exp times and staying away from money times. I have always used a small fight list around 3-4 people and my start was very effective with low PR adding so keeping a high challenge bonus was easy. Lastly, I didn't start using a tattoo till 6.3 max tattoo level which allowed me to fight higher up, but unfortunately lowed my challenge bonus. Oh and my clan bonus has always been 10-15. So basically it would be impossible for someone to get to 4 mill MPR doing what you said. However, I am sure it will be possible in a few more months xD.
But Elite, you didn't buy BA every day.
August 3 2009 1:58 PM EDT
Marl, that is precisely what 3/4 and Novice have said that you can do and easily break into the top.
Oh, oops, yeah, misread the quote.
Elite, that's really good! If you got that far without buying much BA then I think that's a really good sign. :D
3.5m mpr isn't enough for free? How friggin greedy are you people?
August 3 2009 2:18 PM EDT
When there are just over 210 active players and 3.5M MPR gets you to 35th highest MPR, it is not enough.
And the NCB is not entirely free. The first couple months are very difficult at the higher BA regeneration zones. Finding new targets every day. Trying not to lose 1 battle as that is tons of xp. Free perhaps with respect to money, but still time consuming.
Again, we are not asking for it to be easy. Just not impossible.
But it is the system and damm to us older players having a chance to play at the top.
"But lets just say I find the fact that Nem can hold a challenge bonus better than the most of CB frightening."
Are there numbers to back this up? Do you have access to some sort of hidden stats page for CB?
I have an NCB with similar PR (and less PR from equipment, so slightly higher MPR), and I have about 500k more score than him. In fact, *every* person on my fightlist has higher score than he does. He would even be on my fightlist if his score was high enough.
Absolute best-case scenario with an NCB without buying BA will probably get you something close to 75%, close to what Eliteofdelete managed but still under that 4m that is supposedly fairly easy to get to. I was watching Elite's NCB occasionally, and I doubt there's a much more PR-efficient strategy that can completely obliterate certain strategies (single minions). But, he's only near-perfect because he doesn't think long and hard enough about what he's doing, right?
PS. Sorry for "not really trying" on my NCB.
"3.5m mpr isn't enough for free? How friggin greedy are you people?"
6 months isn't enough of a person's time? How friggin time-consuming are you?
August 3 2009 2:22 PM EDT
I was under the impression that 3.5 million MPR on an NCB without buying BA was REALLY GOOD. And if you are doing better, I think that's a good NCB. I was under the impression that people were getting much lower and complaining that the N*B BA cost were at fault.
But if this is the norm, then I don't know what to expect. If people can get 3.5 mil MPR with not to much investment, then 4 mil should not be that hard at all. People are running around saying the only way to run a competitive NCB is with hundreds of million of CBD.
So now I see the real argument here, but I really can't believe it. Do people honestly want a system where you have 95% top MPR with a moderate investment? Moderate being like 50 million? Really guys? Is that what you want?
I think I need clarification about what people think they should be given.
Also, while I'm posting...
Is there something abhorrently wrong with somebody getting into the top 10 MPR? Will the world end? Will the Sun explode? Will everybody die instantaneously?
No? Why wouldn't you want people to reach the top, then? Isn't the fun in a strategy game supposed to be about outwitting your opponents? You'd think after spending so much time at the top with nobody else joining you, you'd have things figured out, even if it's simply realizing that nothing you can realistically do will help you get them off your back or even add them to your list.
Lower the amount of buyable BA compared to natural BA (whether you increase rewards, or the amount BA per 20 minutes, or anything else to get that same effect) and let people get to 75%, 80%, maybe even 85% of the top MPR without spending extravagant amounts of money, and leave the last 500k MPR for those who want to spend money.
Heck, why have buyable BA in the first place? Why not make the only cost of running an NCB the cost of buying minions, and include that in the 95%? Or would that bring too much competition to the top or something? Perhaps an extreme example, but ask people if they would be happier with that kind of a system. Then maybe people like OB, Lord Bob, and other people who's names currently escape me, would be willing to run an NCB and become competitive there instead of being competitive in the mid levels.
I can see something wrong with the top MPR being passed on a daily or weekly basis. I fail to see how there's anything wrong with people regularly getting close to the top MPR.
"Do people honestly want a system where you have 95% top MPR with a moderate investment? Moderate being like 50 million? Really guys? Is that what you want?"
Why not? I'm sure there are some people up top who are bored of attacking the same 5 people and being attacked by the same 3 people non-stop everyday.
August 3 2009 2:36 PM EDT
There is a massive difference in competitiveness between 3.5M MPR and 4.3M MPR if your wanting to be at the very top. The difference is huge. 3.5M MPR will get you to the top 20 with normal NW. 4.3 into the top 10, perhaps top 3 if you have the NW to back it up.
If that does not matter to you 3/4th and you will be happy with 3.5M MPR, I would be perfectly happy to trade characters with you.
And pay for the transfers.
There is a lot of time and effort just in running a NCB. Aside from any potential CB you spend on BA.
Saving up for it, six months of trying not to miss any BA, finding targets, finding new targets every day the first couple weeks, etc...
It is not like a normal character where if you miss a day of BA, o well. If you miss a day of NCB, that is 5x the loss of a normal character.
I played Heroes the last month of its NCB. And as you know, it is hard if you have RL stuff going on to get in every BA. And win with every BA, as a loss is 5x the loss of a normal character in missed xp.
August 3 2009 2:38 PM EDT
A Rolling Bonus would solve so many problems. And I fail to see how it promotes laziness.
Opposed to now so many people not even fighting anymore.
The top is getting very stale.
I was never aware that people wanted a system where it'll be weird if you weren't at the same MPR as everyone else. I will whole heartily agree with you that our system is currently not designed for that.
This really explains the complaining.
I propose we introduce an MPR cap. It'll accomplish the same thing.
Cause CB was designed by hard caps. (it isn't)
But I'm starting to realize that the uncapped nature of CB is what makes it stand out. And it's what kept me interested in the first place. It's what made it stand out to me.
But at the same time, it's probably why the game is dying.
August 3 2009 2:54 PM EDT
Ok I and Nem have been Mentioned a few times Nem has already Spoken now it is my turn. Look at it like this Nem and I are 2 sides of the same coin in terms of Extremes. He does not buy ANY BA I buy ALL BA. The First Argument that Sickone made I happen to agree with in that he and I for that matter are doing EXACTLY as Expected considering the circumstances. When I was around Nems size and in that particular MPR Fighting range I was able to maintain a 100% CB and for a while it stayed at exactly that then it slowly drifted off. This means the Dead Zone is Starting and yes I am about Dead Center of it right now so rewards are getting lower and opponents getting tougher as is expected as well.
True Enough 3/4ths a lot of people do not plan well enough but as Ranger has pointed out not many start an NCB without some planning. Nem and I and a few others happened to plan a bit better than most. I even bought a char and played the Strat I am using right now with almost all of the old items before I started this NCB. Nem even told me this was only a Semi-Serious NCB run for him due to his current circumstances, and that it was a plan for his future Serious Run. I Congratulate Nem on a good run considering everything he is having to compensate for, his planning and market savvy have helped him a lot most people would have quit.
Still in all of this I feel that I must restate something: For those using the good NCBers as a Standard to mark a bar by this is not necessarily a good thing. Everyone has their strong and weak points and to point at anyone of us and say that is what you need to do is really taking away choices/options in their plan/strategy. Jon has strove to make the playing field even for ALL players, by Nerfing a Ton of Items, not the select few that follow ONLY a certain path. This is counter productive of CB in it's meaning and presentation, and is Eliteist in it's very nature.
novice I see some that have joined the argument that are indeed greedy for the things proposed and why not? I have swung so many deals to make this particular NCB Strategy work that it is not even funny. I have worked my butt off to make it to where I have and anyone that calls me greedy is dammed right! I want to be able to get off the Porch and Compete with the Big Dogs and have put in the work in order to do it. Terms of Competition and Greed are subject to Perception and I truly wish everyone in this Thread would separate or at least differentiate what exactly their terms and uses thereof are.
My Term of Competition is : To Fight at the Top Tier and Hold my own while having and equal footing on MPR, Score and PR.
My Term of Greed is : Wanting to make the best of my NCB with everything I can get for it while it is still an NCB.
My Goal's are: To be one of the Best Run NCBs in CB History, to be a Truly Competitive Top Tier NCB and to be the First NCB to reach 4 Mil MPR Before it ends.
So am I wrong for saying this? Most would say this is also their goals(Mostly) but all of this is subject to circumstances and ability to make it happen. Some are just plain out more equipped to handle their particular situations than others. Should they then be punished by that because they do not reach that Bar or Standard? Survival of the fittest you say yes it is when the playing field is even then that is where the fun and challenge come in.
When you go onto terms of what this Discussion is really about then you will see this:
The Field is NOT Even. Yes there are EXCEPTIONS that have made Dramatic impacts but they are few and far between, stop pointing people out and say look at them if they can you can too! You CANNOT use the same template for every player, it is a case by case scenario and is extremely random.
The Object here I believe I have already pointed out is that Jon wants CB to be Even for ALL players not just some, this makes it more fun for EVERYONE not just a select few. An Equal Chance to start the rest is up to the particular Players.
August 3 2009 2:56 PM EDT
By the way I in no way intended any of this to seem as if I am attacking anyone. No Offense was meant/intended I just needed to get it off my chest. So if you are offended I apologize in advance.
"I was never aware that people wanted a system where it'll be weird if you weren't at the same MPR as everyone else."
The funny thing is that removing the impairing cost of the NCB would make strategy matter more in this, a strategy game. That's a positive thing, right? People who take the time to optimize their strategy, wisely spend their money, etc. will end up with more MPR than those who simply sit down for 5 minutes, burn their BA, and then do something else.
In addition, if you get rid of the huge BA cost, then people will be able to get to the top with money for equipment. We'll see more tanks, and likely a much wider array of strategies.
It may even be a good thing for player retention, too. After the NUB ends, they won't be running into a brick wall and either be forced to continue to play their mediocre character or pay an insane cost to get a real try for the top now that they know what they're doing.
Really, I can't see a reason why people shouldn't be able to easily get to 80% of the top MPR, then have to pay a moderate amount of money if they want to get up to 95% or even 100% with a great, efficient strategy. If somebody offers up a valid, indisputable reason, I'll gladly eat my words.
August 3 2009 3:03 PM EDT
I guess it all depends on your definition of what a moderate amount of CB is.
August 3 2009 3:04 PM EDT
I want to see Tyriel eat words
August 3 2009 4:07 PM EDT
Write them on a Sub and have him munch it down conundrum solved :P
"6 months isn't enough of a person's time? How friggin time-consuming are you?"
Poison's spent 4.5 years on one character. You're still greedy. I'll go ahead and take that 1000 points away from you.
August 3 2009 4:13 PM EDT
That is one Person with Tenacity and Loyalty to one Char it is a totally different Case Scenario Arty 1000 Points given back to Tyriel.
If you wanted to Speak against the Throwaway Char System that is seeming to be the Norm with NCBs then Poison's NWO is the Poster Child against it.
You're welcome CB, for that incredibly deep statement.
In all seriousness though, must you guys be so long-winded?
Oh Ranger, you might not remember Toast, but have you ever heard of the character "Megadeus"?
August 3 2009 4:33 PM EDT
Is that Toast?
Not even 4M MPR 6 months after the NCB is over?
It got to what 3.4M MPR when the NCB was done?
My point is made.
Relic quit at it early, like 3/4s said it was right there with him till the end of the NCB.
Oh right, Opvines bought him and retrained several hundred K MPR off him since. Now that's a man who's not afraid of retraining. A REAL man!
August 3 2009 4:55 PM EDT
I have retrained over 150k MPR on Heroes, Sut has just retrained a large DM to evasion on Hubbell.
I fail to see your point about retraining. Sometimes you need to, other times you do not.
PoisoN never retrained. Does that make him less of a man? Or just stupid?
I was being sarcastic. I really don't judge people's manhood people by their ability to retrain.
August 3 2009 5:05 PM EDT
Just by their ability to play CB?
August 3 2009 5:10 PM EDT
I know about that.
however you did state about retraining in your first post.
One does not have to retrain if ones strategy is solid.
And a lot of NCB strats are very solid.
August 3 2009 8:28 PM EDT
Do we REALLY have to keep bringing Poison's NWO up each and every freaking time we have a chat about new players ?
To put it mildly, I couldn't care less if at some time in the distant future he managed to use up 1 billion CB$ during his 10-year CB life, that STILL doesn't mean a NCB SHOULD spend anywhere near that amount of CB$ in order to match his performance.
To put it less mildly, I wish to throttle anybody who ever mentions the words "Poison", "NCB" and "fair" in the same paragraph again in order to advocate high NCB BA costs.
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