What are the Foils to an ELBow? (in General)
A Masive NW Elbow.
Back it by a ToA for starters.
If we say GA, lets then add in DM to the mix.
I'll leave TSA/PL out, as that's great versus, well everything in CB.
Beaten by the ToA PTH and Leadership.
VA? Anything Melee?
Beaten by Ranged coming first.
There's always another Massive ELBow with a ToA, as well.
I think you forgot exbow.
How could anyone forget the EXBow!
October 20 2009 12:21 PM EDT
One could easily say that I have one of the biggest ToA archers and ELBs in the game.
I get beat up by exbows and RoS characters. Some RoS characters below my MPR with 1/3rd the NW. Less than 1/8th the NW if you eliminate tattoos.
When LA and Freed were using the ToE with decent AC, they beat the crud out of me.
Jiggies beat me badly until I started to use GA, which can be dispelled via DM easily.
So this is what I have as foils:
1) RoS, that is AS/GA axis of damage
2) Exbow, especially with Leadership to hit just that 1 time you need.
4) ToE with highish AC
That alone is 4 nice foils for the elbow. Which, BTW, needs a massive amount of NW to work well. Something the foils need hardly any of.
I realize NW should not = win, but if more NW does not help you win more, then why play a tank at all and spend NW upping your weapons? That never made sense to me that discussion.
I'm all for more NW = win more.
But not currently.
It has to have the limiter, the drawback.
Yes, more NW needs to let you kill more, for there to be a reason to want more NW. But that should be reflected in PR, and give you less rewards if you hit the same targets.
Trade off. Easier wins, smaller growth.
And to top it of;
Harder to be beaten.
That's why you do, and should, pump NW.
(Heh, I've gone OT in my own thread)
Back on topic;
So we've got;
1: RoS combined with the unbalanced GA
3: Jiggies (Why Jiggies? What do they give that a normal Tank wouldn't? The stacking of Jucntioned Evasion on top of natural UC?)
4: High AC
1&2 are abusive items that need to be rebalanced. I don't think there's many people that wouldn't agree with that.
3&4 are damage reductions.
When GA gets rebalanced, and the EXBow gets removed from the game, we're really only left with Jig stacking and 500+ AC to stop ToA Elbow Archers.
As long as Junctioned Jigs aren't next on your list (after the RBF!), then I think that we're ok with heavy AC.
Afterall, heavy AC is the answer to RBFs as well. And if it's ok for ELBows to be countered by heavy AC, then it's ok for RBFs as well.
October 20 2009 2:37 PM EDT
Well it is far more of a factor vs elbs as you only have 6 rounds to really do your damage vs 44+ for the RBF.
That is AC.
And you forget the ToE.
October 20 2009 2:46 PM EDT
Have I ever stated, at least in the past year, that GA was overpowered. Or the RoS was overpowered?
Never. I think GA is fine as well as the RoS. It is a strategy that has its benefits but also have a few holes that can be exploited if you want.
I would however, like to see:
1) the ToE get a boost to work vs all damage types except for magic.
2) the RBF to get the evasion part removed.
3) the exbow changed to more of a bell shaped drainage curve.
Post summary: [2:19 P.M.] [GentlemanLoser]
NW should equal more destruction
Counters to high-NW are the Jiggy, RoS-backed GA, AC, and the ExBow
ExBow and GA need to be fixed
6 Round for the Elbow versus 44+, true. One can be bosted by lots of stuff, the other can't be boosted by anything, and deals the lowest damage out of any equivalent alternative in CB.
That's why it needs more rounds.
As for Evasion on the RBF versus ToE (And the RBF having both a Physcial and Magic reduction), I think it's due to the RBF being single target, while the ToE applies an Aura.
GA has been OP since the damage scale. Everythign was scaled down, apart from HP and GA. It means GA gained, and is now far to easy to reach max effectiveness than before. GA needs to be toned down alonsige everything else. Aart form that GA is fine. ;) The RoS is fine as well. ;)
"NW should equal more destruction"
Too sumarised and answer. Now, no. In theory yes.
"Counters to high-NW are the Jiggy, RoS-backed GA, AC, and the ExBow"
The Jiggy was more of a question. ;)
If it's stacked Evasion from Junction, then you can see why the RBF Evasion is a threat to Ranger and why he would like it removed.
It's like Junciton, but without needing a Familiar.
Stack Trained Evasion, use a RBF and wear DBs.
But even then, all the stacked Evaison in CB either on a Junctioned Jig, or RBF combo) does absolutly nothing to lower the BCTH of ELBows, and they still get to automaticaly hit once per round...
October 20 2009 3:13 PM EDT
1 hit per round from ELBs is certainly not nearly enough damage output to beat people with comparible score.
Even my uber ELB does 2M damage to unarmored minions, where most minions that are mages/tanks/walls have over 6M HP starting combat. Then back that up with a PL/TSA/revive minion etc...
And my ELB is very skewed, imagine someone with a normal sized elb doing 600k damage per hit.
How much does an equivlently under sized RBF hit for once per round?
October 20 2009 3:35 PM EDT
Why do you mention undersized?
An appropriate level RBF for where I fight would be at least 8M levels.
This would yield a damage of 1.6M a round subject to lowering only by AC.
I have less than 100 AC on my ToA tank, which is about max for such a minion, so I would take about 1.3M a round. For 44 or less rounds, until the battle is over.
Vs the top tattoo as a RBF, it would be about 2.4M a round subject to AC reductions.
But only AC reduces that damage, nothing else in all of CB except another RBF reduces it.
While there are ways to reduce the ELBs damage, including the ToE, DB, evasion, the exbow and AC.
"imagine someone with a normal sized elb doing 600k damage per hit."
October 20 2009 3:42 PM EDT
How do you get undersized RBF from normal sized elb?
It seems you are trying to use 1 of 3 uber ELBs to make a point about how much damage they do vs "under" sized RBFs.
If there is a problem with oversized ELBs, address that problem. Via ENC or NW-PR.
Do not compare undersized RBFs with normal sized ELBs. Compare normal sized equivalents.
Otherwise there is no point continuing this discussion.
600K a hit is pathetically underpowered for an ELB.
October 20 2009 4:08 PM EDT
An x6000 elb with 6M strength did an average of 675k a hit to my tank: AC about 70.
A x9000 elb with 9M strength did about 1.1M a hit to my tank.
Depends on what an average elb is :)
So I guess my 600k a hit was a bit low. Make it 1M a hit then :)
So 1M a hit subject to ToE, RBF evasion, evasion skill, DB, AC and the exbow
vs 1.3M a hit every round, only effected by AC and other RBFs.
5 ways to lower archery damage vs 2 for the RBF.
The TSA/HP/Revive minion works vs both. Maybe perhaps a bit better vs the archer as all you have to do is really live for 6 rounds vs 44 for the RBF.
But then again to get an ELB to x6k without any + is only 47M NW. Add 15M more if you want +100. Easy money to get with the new improved rewards/drop system :)
9k is another 30 or so million. Pocket change.
"600K a hit is pathetically underpowered for an ELB. "
for one hit maybe? But not as soon as those hit quad hits
October 20 2009 4:26 PM EDT
Those quad hits, ah.
Subject to lowering the amount of hits by a multitude of factors.
1) Facing an opponents tank. Quad hits---> Double hits
2) Facing a RBF. Quad hits---> Triple hits
3) Facing DBs. Quad hits---> Double or triple hits.
4) Facing evasion. Quad hits---> Double or triple hits.
5) Facing an exbow. Quad hits---> 200 damage per hit if even touched once by the exbow in most cases.
6) Facing a ToE. Quad hits----> Quad hits doing 50% or less damage per hit. Subject to AC damage mitigation.
Now ALL AC works vs the ELB while just the + works vs the RBF, that is a large difference.
Now, the archer only gets 6 rounds to do its job. Then the next 44 it attacks at 40% efficiency every other round, while the RBF does it job subject ONLY to AC + damage reduction or another RBF.
Suddenly those Quad hits do not look at promising.
Haha, ToE. When you are looking at 50 million + damage during ranged, good luck stacking the reduction and having enough HP and offensive force to do anything. With 75% damage reduction you're still going to need a bunch of kill slots and at least 12 million HP somewhere for your non-archer damage dealer to even survive. And he's probably not even going to have enough offensive power to even touch their monster HP. The ToE is such a blow to ones offensive potential it's really not good enough.
The only way ToE would work is if you stack it with huge AC and evasion. But at that point you've invested both a tattoo and a large portion of NW or exp just to survive tanks.
"Why do you mention undersized?"
Equivalently undersized to the discussion...
As in downgrading the exmaple of your bow to a smaller one.
Yes, you can trick yourself out to stac evasion and limit yourself to one ELBow hit per round.
You can trick yourself out for Heavy AC to reduce incoming RBF damage.
You can also trick yourself out for Heavy AC to reduce incoming ELBow damage. But then you're not tricking yourself out to reduce the number of imconing hits.
So your 2M hit might be reduced by AC, but then you're back to hitting multiple times per round.
Is it *really* an inbalance that you can try to reduce incoming damage two ways (that *don't* stack with each other) for an ELBow (Evade down to one hit pr round, or reduce all incoming hits), but only one for a RBF?
Do we need a second way to reduce RBF damage, or to get rid of one way to reduce ELBow damage for CB to be WAI?
Or does this more reflect the versatility of archery, over the simplicity of the RBF?
October 20 2009 4:40 PM EDT
How can you say there are 2 ways to reduce ELB damage?
While some do stack, they are distinct ways.
But this thread is about the foils for the ELB.
I gave you 5 earlier on in the thread.
There are only 2 to the RBF, and the RBF gains more than just damage. It gains both magic AND physical damage reductions. Not to just the ELB but to all weapons.
October 20 2009 4:51 PM EDT
Don't forget evasion walls backed by PL
Talking purely there about reducing damage by Evasion, or AC.
As they are distinct and can't stack.
You seem to be so sure we need more ways to 'foil' the RBF. And that it needs it's bonuses reduced. Primarily it's ability to stack evasion.
But, not having an aura, what's it left with?
Damage. And damage reduction on a single minion.
I'd like to go back to it's damage for a moment.
Can't be hit by GA! No, but that's becuase it's damage is (in terms to every other source) miniscule, and limited.
Take the next smallest Damage Dealer in CB, MM.
MM hits 48% of it's level, is reduced by AC + only, and can be boosted by Items directly and indirectly (leadership).
Ah! But it can be reduced by AMF you say. And equal AMF would reuce it by 50% to 24% damage, boostable still.
The RBF is 20%. And stuck at 20%. Can't be boosted, can't be reduced.
Not facing AMF, MM does almost more with items) 100% more damage than the RBF. Facing an equivalent AMF, it still does more damage than the RBF.
Why are you not railing against MM's overpowered Damage?
Back to Foils. The RBF needs more for some Reason. Because, ignoring joining it, there's only AC.
OK, and we're giving AC versus the ELBow as well. The ELBow has others. But let's look at the relationship.
Evasion verus the ELBow. Sure, a strategic counter. With stacking, you might even get it to work. Is it's OP? It would be, if the ELBow had no way to work agianst Evasion. Like riasing it's own PTH. Thorugh itself, other items directly, or indirectly (ToA/Leadership). It's a relationship.
So if we added something like this to 'foil' the RBF's damage, how does it get the relationship? (Like DD versus AMF, or STR/DEX versus EC, or PTH versus -PTH) It can't. It by design can't be boosted. There's no realtion there it can grow around.
And that's part of it's design.
Give it one, and it just becomase the front hitting single target Fireball DD Familiar, without all the benefits of being a Familar. You might just as well then strap on an Electric Familiar, an get more damage, with more utility.
October 20 2009 4:57 PM EDT
RBF not overpowered ELB overpowered.
Is that summarised enough?
I don't think I mentioned the ELBow being overpowered. ;) That something you'ld like to add to the discussion? ;)
ELB is not overpowered USD is. RoBF just happens to be something OP that doesn't take cash. Unless you want to drop some cash to get a large tat, but then we're back to USD being OP again :(.
What's OP aobut the RBF Titan?
It can't be the amount of damage it does (smallest in game).
Or that it hits once per round (DD and ELBows do that).
Is the tiny Evasion (what is it now, 10% of it's level?), or the Magic dmaage reduction (Max 25%) really OP? Even with giving both (to a single minion as it has no aura).
October 20 2009 5:02 PM EDT
Well, the mageseeker is superb, in fact lets me beat people some ELB users can't. I'd go as far as say that it's hugely underrated and a better weapon than I've ever used, apart from the Morg. But the ELB is possibly even better. Overpowered? Don't know about that, it's a strong word, and one that I don't like. Superpowered fits though.
October 20 2009 5:44 PM EDT
"Why are you not railing against MM's overpowered Damage? "
Are your really asking that as a serious Q?
GA works great vs MM. Does not work vs the RBF.
AMF works ok, less so given the stupidity that is the NSC. Making AMF nearly worthless unless in stupid high amounts. But it still is useful. Does not effect the RBF.
The MgS, although not as good as it once was, is still very helpful vs DD spells. Does not work vs the RBF.
It matters little that the RBF damage is the "smallest" in the game. Actually the ELB damage may be the smallest in the game. Vs a Jiggy or high evasion or DBs, in melee the ELB damage is 0. That is quite small.
Even small damage at 1.3M a round, over 44+ rounds adds up to quite a lot of damage. Esp when one does not have to worry about AMF or GA and only the + on armor. Or other RBFs :)
"Actually the ELB damage may be the smallest in the game. Vs a Jiggy or high evasion or DBs, in melee the ELB damage is 0. That is quite small."
jiggy and high evasion cannot eat into bth. how can they get an elb to 0 hits?
October 20 2009 5:54 PM EDT
BTH for an elb in melee is 40.
Missile weapon users without a melee weapon get a 40% dex penalty.
Jiggies get full dex in melee.
So unless you have Z type dex, which only Z has, you miss completely. Rarely hitting due to a very small dex part and perhaps Leadership as long as your first minion lives, if you have minions enough to use Leadership.
Vs LR, I miss over 90% of the time in melee with my elb.
It's a baseline Ranger.
X amount of damage per round, no matter what.
While the ELBow could do zero per round in Melee. If facing specific set ups.
When not facing specific setu, it could Quad hit in Ranged for a gazillion times more damage than the RBF.
It's like the random damage range in CB.
The RBF provides a stable basline, that is frequently surpased by every other damage source in CB, but sometimes, when facing thier nemisis', can actually turn round and deal less than it.
You can post about doing zero damage a round, which makes the RBF's unresistable damage OP.
But then the exact same arguement would be reversed when you post aobut landing Quad/Qunit hit for millions, that the unboostable damage of the RBF is severly UP.
See the point?
October 20 2009 5:55 PM EDT
But there are many ways to lower that massive elb missile damage!!!
There is but 1 real way to do that vs the RBF.
I again posted the 5 ways to lower/mitigate missile damage.
Yeah and two of them are broken, and we know they're borken.
Again, does the number of ways open to reduce damage matter? Does it need to be equal?
Do we have enough number of ways to reduce Decay Damage? Only AMF does that. OP! We need more!
And you ignore that these reductions are relation based. Stat versus Stat.
Which by Design the RBF can't have.
Because Dex Can! Evasion has have to have Dex to work Properly! This is what a Jiggy trains innately add junction to the mix and yes my friend that BTH is foiled too.
Evasion Junctioned over doesn't take the Jigs DEX into acocunt. So is penalised.
A Jig trains 50% of it's level in DEX. On a 10 Mil Tat, that's only 5M, boosted by whatever Elven Gear (possible none, if you're using DBs and HG) junctioned over.
If all you are trying to do is out last an Archer to Melee then DBs and EGs are your ticket along with since they add to your Dex.
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