PTH versus Evasion. (in General)
Spurred form a thought by another thread of mine.
What's the 'foil' to a Weapons natural PTH + ToA PTH + Leadership PTH?
DBs on their own can't catch up.
Evasion trained plus DBs maybe? So we're looking at stacking Evasion, just to try to get a weapon down t it's DEX based CTH.
Evasion and DBs don't stack linearly. But that's ok, ToA and Weapon based PTH don't either.
So we can cancel out Weapon PTH with DBs. They'r ont he same curve.
That leaves Trained evasion versus ToA PTH.
How do they compare? 1/3 NW of the ToA in PTH versus Evasions trained (with the no DEX penalty) -PTH.
Leadership then comes after, and is a bit of a wild card, as it adds linearly (IIRC) to whatever PTH yo have.
If Evasion can't keep pace with ToA PTH, what other options do we have?
Use a Jig and Jnction Evasion to it, to make use of it's natural Evasion from UC. Maybe that, coupled with Junctioning over DBs.
Stacking a RBF on top of a Minion traning Evasion.
It all depends on exactly how much PTH a large ToA would give. How much does the largest in the game give (on a top 5 weapon)?
The largest Evasion in the game (4.7M) gives -199 PTH.
What size of ToA would be needed to reach +200 PTH?
a tattoo of 300 mil nw so those aren't very common.
Well, make sure we notice that we are comparing apples and oranges. One is a tattoo secondary ability and the other is straight exp on a minion.
PTH is boostable by USD in addition to ToA, evasion hits pretty hard caps with elven equips (which is a very large strategic commitment btw).
I only wished the RoBF gave evasion like the ToA does. 1/3 of the NW!
Speaking of ToA, it adds PTH, it adds ST, it adds DX, it gives a damage boost.
DBs are quite boost-able by USD. Also, +100DBs, relatively cheap(I own a pair myself), decrease physical damage by around 25-33% for mages, for me it is usually 33-50% physical reduction.
October 20 2009 5:23 PM EDT
A 130 mill NW ToA would give me my 170 PTH on the mageseeker.
(Remember that if you use a ranged and melee weapon you get that 1/3 NW twice...)
What's the NWs of the largest ToAs?
Are they more than Johnny's? Would they be hitting 200 PTH or over?
If so, then it looks like we *have* to stack Evasion using a Junctioned Jig or RBF on a dedicated Evasion minion in order to keep up with the largest ToAs.
Before we even consider Leaderships flat increase on top!
October 20 2009 5:32 PM EDT
Ha that's funny. - Why then do so many strats beat my ELB and ToA at my level???.. I have to put every dollar I make into my ELB or ELS to just keep competitive. Actually I am still losing vs many strategies -like Jiggies, and MM + RoBF teams, or other 4 minion teams with CoC DBs, PL etc., since I can only hit one person at a time.. . But I can sometimes pick off a few above me which is why I keep it. I also invested a lot into the ELB at first, way above what I make in rewards. So I should win some. Right? But I feel it is somewhat underpowered compared to the investment, but it is OK.
Strategy. PL/TSA ruling all. EC. EXBow. ;)
But I'm not looking at all that.
Just -PTH versus +PTH. How we can get both, and in what amounts.
October 20 2009 5:35 PM EDT
Yes, but do not forget the 3% per + bonus the AoF gives on evasion. Add that to the bonus you get from EB, EG and EC and you can have over 100% bonus to your evasion level.
The AoI subtracts 20 flat from the BTH of the weapon.
The PTH added by the ToA is too dependant on the + of the weapon at start to adequately figure out for general discussion.
My ToA gives me only 35 PTH while if my weapon was at +0 I am sure it would give me close to 150 PTH.
when evasion was trained, the dex penalty was added in the first round and then some pretty major evasion changes came in the second round. i think that with hindsight the dex penalty should have been undone. i think evasion was taken down too much!
also, remember that if you are junctioning evasion to a jiggy, you have to train dex as the penalty comes over even if the jiggy has plenty of dex.
October 20 2009 5:37 PM EDT
Hey buddy, that Evasion is an effective 200, thank you very much. *smile* (Just ticked over).
BUT, don't forget about the penalty for not having dexterity to go along with that. My effective Evasion at the end of a fight? 162.
Worse, that 162 is what junctioned to my Halidon (when I had one) instead of the Hal's dexterity actually letting me get a full evasion effect.
So Evasion is broken in so many ways that I can't even count them all... And last I heard, it's all of it a "feature" at worst and a "too hard to fix" at best. Awesome!
"Yes, but do not forget the 3% per + bonus the AoF gives on evasion. Add that to the bonus you get from EB, EG and EC and you can have over 100% bonus to your evasion level."
Yeah. Elven Gear (and the AoF) can boost trained Evasion levels.
The AoI subtracts 20 flat from the BTH of the weapon."
Wasn't worrying about BTH here, that's the other side of the equation, and involves more discussion about DEX. ;)
"The PTH added by the ToA is too dependant on the + of the weapon at start to adequately figure out for general discussion."
But it's exactly the same for DB stacking with Evasion. And as weapon PTH and DB -PTH are ont he same curve, we can negate both and only look at trained Evasion versus ToA PTH (then Leadership after as it's a flat increase on top).
"My ToA gives me only 35 PTH while if my weapon was at +0 I am sure it would give me close to 150 PTH."
How much -PTH would trained Evasion give with a pair of DBs the same size as your weapon's PTH.
We can just negate both, and assume values for zero weapon PTH/no DBs.
Let's assume that the Elven Gear (including the AoF) negates the no Dex Penalty, for ease.
Zen, if you don't mind (as the owner of the largest ToA), what's your ToA's NW?
All we do then is divide it by a third and turn that aount of cash into a PTH cost for the Top 5 weapons to find out the PTH added don't we?
October 20 2009 5:46 PM EDT
You cannot just add the NW to the weapon as people have different + already on their weapons.
And with evasion, I do agree with removing the dex requirement. Train the skill and get the benefit.
The evasion/dex relationship should at the very least work as we think it should with Jiggies or HFs. They get their full dex benefit when junctioning evasion.
"You cannot just add the NW to the weapon as people have different + already on their weapons."
But, we can?
DBs and Weapon + work on the same curve. They don't add linearly to Evasion -PTH or ToA PTH.
So if we set DB and Weapon PTH to an equal amount, it would be the same result setting them both to 100 as it is to zero.
So set it to zero and ignore it.
That leaves us with comparing Trained Evasion to ToA PTH (Unless the calculations for Evasion + DB differ to Weapon PTH + ToA PTH, which doesn't make sense and skews the balance).
If we take a ToA's NW, we can third it to find out how much 'psuedo' NW it provides to PTH, then look up to see how a ToA of that size compares to a Trained Evasion.
Unless (as mentioned above) Evasion + DB is calculted differently to Weapon PTH + PTH, in which case we've got balance issues anyway! ;)
October 20 2009 6:41 PM EDT
Sorry guys posting on my phone just takes too long so I had to wait and read everything first.....lol
The War Wizard Gift lvl 10,360,217 NW $187,862,137
As a side not when I was @
8 Mil levels +150
9 Mil levels +160
10 mil levels +170
Yes it is that linear folks...XD
A rough estimate on the side, someone would need around a 15M lvls ToA to get +200 pth (this is of course assuming no pth on the weapon already).
Ah! It might be in the Wiki.
Using 18.1% of the level, a 10M sized Tattoo should have a NW of around;
With a ToA giving around 60,333,333 as NW into a Weapons PTH.
That should give a base ELBow around 170-180 PTH.
(175) Evasion would require a 3.4M Evasion.
After DEX Penalty you would need an Evasion of 5.6M for that. Let's reduce that a little by AoF/EG/EC (No EB as you have to wear DB)
Largest AoF/EG/EC gives a +78% Bonus to Evasion.
So fully decking out an Evasion Minion (with no DEX), you would need a trained Evasion of 3.15M to equal the PTH granted by a ToA.
Then there's the flat bonus of Leadersip on top.
Taking no Weapon PTH / DB doesn't work for this, as the more of these, the harder it becomes to match the Leadership bonus.
But for a best case no Weapon PTH / DB situation, the best BoF in the game would add +20 PTH on top.
Making you need to reach (195) Evasion, or another 1M Evasion (before DEX penalty / Elven Boosts).
So, the largest Trained Evasion in the game, coupled with the largest AoF/EG/EC could keep pace with the largest ToA and BoF in the game.
So long as there was no Weapon PTH/DB involved.
Add those in, and I think the flat nature of Leadership would make it impossible.
Maybe Leadership should change to stacking non linearly, like Evasion/DBS and Weapon PTH/ToA PTH do?
October 20 2009 7:19 PM EDT
You really really really need to add the Dex Game into this equation GL. It is the base to build around the perspective strat, to make the strat work or to foil it.
Have all of it and I have a higher dex and guess what? I'm gonna getcha!
The DEX game I hate. It's something only Tanks can take part in.
There's no real reason to discuss it, as there no way (bar an AoI which you won't be using if you're using an AoF to boost your Evasion, which you need to keep up with PTH...) to lower BTCH.
I think the whole DEX/BTCH system is broken. ;)
October 20 2009 7:56 PM EDT
Really GL? Not to poke holes in your theory there but If you train Evasion you have to train Dex It is a requirement to make it viable, you can't have one of these without the other. Oh and yes Mages can too play the Dex game if they want to it is a choice, not a great one but still a choice. ;)
"Maybe Leadership should change to stacking non linearly, like Evasion/DBS and Weapon PTH/ToA PTH do?"
Good, I hate multi-minion teams anyway.
October 20 2009 8:12 PM EDT
"Maybe Leadership should change to stacking non linearly, like Evasion/DBS and Weapon PTH/ToA PTH do? "
Certainly. I made posts about Leadership in the past stating it was broken.
This may help with the exbow situation a bit.
Keep Leadership with DD and str boosting. But change the PTH aspect from a flat boost.
"Oh and yes Mages can too play the Dex game if they want to it is a choice, not a great one but still a choice. ;)"
Yeah, it's the same sort of choice Tanks have about fighting with a Dagger, or a Morg. ;)
October 21 2009 7:05 AM EDT
Or having an Archer fight without Archery Trained as suggested a few times since it is a choice too? ;)
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