I hate to be the advocate, as it.... (in General)

Obviously means I'm not only a lesser player, but a bad person...

This is why the exbow exists. At least in theory, there are still no exbow users actively winning against Ranger. So I don't even know what the problem is besides a few individuals who might just want attention.


Play-by-play
Blightning Heroes
Great Sable Stag found no valid targets on which to cast Antimagic Field
Wall of Denial found no valid targets on which to cast Antimagic Field
Cumberstone cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (1590627)
Sheep cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (2,698,176)
Pig cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (4,552,261)
Ranged Combat
Dog hit Wall of Denial with The Lunatic [1468228]
Dog hit Wall of Denial with The Lunatic [1589512]
Dog shot Wall of Denial with The Lunatic [1344994]
Dog shot Wall of Denial with The Lunatic [1802300]
Wall of Denial regenerated 278,325 HP

Wall of Denial's shot flew past Dog
Sheep's shot flew past Wall of Denial
Dog hit Wall of Denial with The Lunatic [1432675]
Dog shot Wall of Denial with The Lunatic [1324966]
Dog skewered Wall of Denial with The Lunatic [1703875]
Dog skewered Wall of Denial with The Lunatic [1106914]
Dog cries "Ha Ha Charade You Are!"
Wall of Denial regenerated 278,325 HP
R.I.P. Wall of Denial

Sheep undershot Cumberstone
Dog struck deep into Cumberstone with The Lunatic [2115146]
Dog skewered Cumberstone with The Lunatic [1956480]
Dog struck deep into Cumberstone with The Lunatic [2376898]
Dog struck deep into Cumberstone with The Lunatic [2160353]
Dog struck deep into Cumberstone with The Lunatic [1823645]
Dog cries "Ha Ha Charade You Are!"
R.I.P. Cumberstone

Sheep undershot Cumberstone's familiar
Dog hit Cumberstone's familiar with The Lunatic [1571799]
Dog skewered Cumberstone's familiar with The Lunatic [2051263]
Dog skewered Cumberstone's familiar with The Lunatic [1734290]
Dog struck deep into Cumberstone's familiar with The Lunatic [1559422]
Dog cries "Ha Ha Charade You Are!"
R.I.P. Cumberstone's familiar

Sheep's shot went wide of Deathmark
Dog shot Deathmark with The Lunatic [1779091]
Dog struck deep into Deathmark with The Lunatic [2478295]
Dog skewered Deathmark with The Lunatic [1569828]
Dog skewered Deathmark with The Lunatic [1905268]
Dog skewered Deathmark with The Lunatic [2543733]
Dog cries "Ha Ha Charade You Are!"
R.I.P. Deathmark

Sheep's shot ricocheted near Great Sable Stag
Dog hit Great Sable Stag with The Lunatic [1628965]
Dog struck deep into Great Sable Stag with The Lunatic [1781787]
Dog skewered Great Sable Stag with The Lunatic [1960765]
Dog skewered Great Sable Stag with The Lunatic [1444776]
Dog skewered Great Sable Stag with The Lunatic [1645694]
Dog cries "Ha Ha Charade You Are!"
R.I.P. Great Sable Stag

47,860,962... That's right... 47 million damage before Melee.
Because that leaves a lot of strategic options doesn't it...

I figure everyone else wants attention, so I guess I do to.

The Elb and USD factor involved with it is overpowered.

Fix please.

Considering I lose to ROS/GA and a Jiggy and would lose to a high AC/TOE character why again is the exbow needed?

I have counters to my strat and people already beat me using them.

If Travelling Man would have more AC on his tank, I would lose to him.

So why again do we need yet another abusive item vs tanks. One that with 1 hit causes an insta lose?

If the problem is too much damage with missile, then fix that. Change ENC, or put a cap on the x an elb can have per MPR.

Jon stated he likes soft caps, but I guess that does not apply to certain things like the exbow.

If you want to rail on something without may counters, chat about the RBF and its foil, its only foil-AC.

The 2 largest exbow users do not attack me so we do not know if they can beat me. Well novice certain can beat me 90+% of the time. Nem about 50% when he attacks me, or even more.

Just because they do not attack me, does not mean they cannot beat me, that should be obvious.

But again, what about all those non-USD tanks like Windwalker or Titan?

Let us just forget about them like you current do, just like the exbow abuser you are.

Less rounds in ranged perhaps? We could go back to having melee weapons actually matter. any bow but ELB is useless against mages who can train lots of damage, HP and Never Miss. I didn't know anyone could hit 4 times a round consistently, that is pretty interesting. Do you use any armor?

This thread isn't about the exbow, it's about the Elb.

So I have to invest massively into a high AC wall, and or use GA/RoS to beat you.

Sounds like a lot of options.


If you really want, I can retrain my character to 100% EC and Dex / RoBF and farm you 100% of my BA.

I wonder how much whining that would cause. Would you threaten to quit?

I bet you would.

As opposed to the RBF where you have 1 option, more AC.

Vs the ELB you have at least 3 options aside from the exbow.

1) TOE and AC
2) GA with or without the RoS
3) Jiggy and/or evasion minions. Perhaps backed by PL/TSA/revive minion(s)

Vs the RBF you have

1) AC, sorry the ToE is useless
2) see number 1

So why do we need the exbow again? We have a few options vs the ELB.

Again, please address this as you fail to even consider it:
Fix the problem if there is one by fixing the mechanism that was designed to counter USD-ENC.

But I will answer you question: "So I have to invest massively into a high AC wall, and or use GA/RoS to beat you."

That is 2 of the 3 ways to do so. More options that someone has to counter the RBF. At least once the EF/SG bug vs it gets fixed as it should.

So, is not 3 options good enough. Or do you need 5 or 6 to be happy?

What if we all just drop our ELBs and give you an insta win, like you want using the exbow. One hit=win. Great game you play.

And all those non-USD tanks have no chance, way to fight fair!!

How about the 5-6 rounds of ranged, and the 3+ rounds of melee, that seems like a good counter to the RBF. At a minimum if you have a 4 minion team and your damage dealer in the 4th slot you have all the ranged rounds and 3 rounds of melee before he even starts damaging you with it. RBF seems powerful, but when you only hit once a round max, and in melee order, and only once melee starts, it's not actually as bad as you make it out to be.

I run a RBF strat and I have to invest alot in EC/AMF and my wall to just make it to melee, much less win.

It's more like 70% of the time, and not all my wins are due to the exbow. I mostly hit you once, occasionally twice with the ex, never completely draining your str.

Were it not for PL+TSA synthesizing another kill slot, my familiar (very often the only minion to survive regardless of exbow shots hitting) and it's 211 evasion would be toast.

Encumbrance isn't really the answer to the elb, cutting enc cripples other less powerful setups as well. I think we are still very far from having a real solution to the elb... reducing the number of ranged rounds might be a nice start.

Reducing ranged rounds would make the RBF and SG far to powerful.

The only real defense vs these is to quickly kill.

Take that away and the RBF wins.

vs the robf is easy, kill it in ranged, tada.

What is the bow supposed to do? The Lunatic [6x25000] (+234) worth $321,268,749 owned by QBRanger (Heroes) with those stats I would say its gonna hit pretty hard. It still doesnt do what an xbow does for a lot less NW. Effectively turn most tanks into a paper weight in a hit or two. I don't get the comparison at all.

well its exbow is only useful vs tanks
elb is useful vs just about everyone.

If that's your only argument, then surely you won't mind if an anti-DD crossbow was introduced.

Or a crossbow that disables enchanters.

the laxity of word choice is amazing. Again, how can you even begin to mention a DD draining bow when you can't back damage with USD like a tank? You can't, there is no argument there.

And as for an enchanter bow, I don't know... but using the word "disable" is not right because no tank is "disabled" if they were, the tank would lose every time, all the time... which is not the case at all.

Plain and simple...

People who do not think there is a problem with the Elbow and USD use are dumb... Those who do not think there is a problem with the exbow are equally as dumb... incomprehensibly dumb.

I'll tell you what, you make my DD do 48 MILLION damage in ranged, and you can have a your anti-mage bow.

Ranger, the RoBF isn't all powerful... Not even, a few characters make very good use of it, but lets put it into perspective...

Wall of Denial burns from the flames surrounding Roxanne (1926202)
~2m damage a round IN MELEE, vs 48m Damage before ranged is over.
Not counting the lack of a kill slot/HP by choosing the Robf over say a Hal or EF.

Seems fine to me, especially considering the MASSIVE size of the tattoo.

You'll find most RoBFs fall short of that mark by a decent bit.

I don't pretend to have the answers and I wasn't trying to personally attack anyone in the exbow thread. (If it seemed that way I apologize) but I think 48m damage before melee is a lot bigger problem compared to the exbow, which yes DOES make life more difficult for some tanks in the game, but it doesn't really compare to the ELB's damage output at tier 1 levels.

(By the way Ranger, your bow is disgusting. DISGUSTING. I like it.)

So, is there a problem with ST returning in melee?

I no longer understand where these threads come from... Who, honestly, doesn't understand that ENTIRE problem with CB nowadays?

It is -literaly- two things.

Lack of players and players using large amounts of USD. That's it. Bring in 5,000 players, competitive players, and all the inbalance would (I believe, at least) go away. Oh, wahwah. The Exbow beats you? Well, the 15 mage teams that are farming him in return should make him try something else. Or you'll just have to live with him just wanting to beat you.

And USD is OVERPOWERED. Duh. As Titan says, and it's ALWAYS been true, anything with hundreds of USD (Hundreds of millions of CB) pushed into it is going to be ridiculous. It is NOT going to be easily countered, if countered at all. In this way, it proves the game IS balanced, because an item with more NW than it should have is so powerful. You can't balance a game around 500 mil NW weapons because a few players have them. But it sucks to just ignore them, doesn't it?

The ONLY argument I'd like to see from anyone about the *xbows are about how they affect lower NW teams. Basically, can we find a fix that would be less effective against mini-tanks and tanks on 4 minion teams? Those tanks aren't putting out the same kind of damage (At least, not always) and the exbow really is too powerful, at any NW, against them.

As for Ranger's problem with the exbow.... LOL. I have no sympathy. None.

BTW, for those of you who thought 48 mil in 6 rounds was a lot, Ranger's team would do about 70 ml to mine in 6 rounds. If I lived that long. But I don't, so I settle for about 24-25 mil in 2 rounds =D

I love you GW, I really do.

GW not bad

Titan I agree to a point. No matter what game you go to USD is a factor in it in some way.

Jir:

FuerGrissa ost Drauka vs The Travelling Man

Play-by-play:


Post-battle stats

Richard Rahl

Experience 29,971
Hit Points -523,775
Strength -12,912,129
Dexterity 8,302,612

Damage Inflicted 6,574,817


Play-by-play

Richard Rahl cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (2,560,008)

Sleepyhead found no valid targets on which to cast Antimagic Field


Ranged Combat

Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [1240861]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [134380]
Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [1025777]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [134380]
Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [1213427]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [134380]

Johnny Was's shot flew past Richard Rahl

Johnny Was regenerated 270,503 HP

Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [816158]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [134380]
Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [1031397]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [134380]
Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [1244391]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [134380]

Johnny Was shot Richard Rahl with A Bolt of Nether [228652]
Richard Rahl looks weaker!
Johnny Was regenerated 270,503 HP

Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [102]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [102]
Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [207]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [207]
Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [224]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [224]
Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [187]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [187]

Johnny Was shot Richard Rahl with A Bolt of Nether [304917]
Johnny Was regenerated 270,503 HP

Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [187]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [187]
Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [173]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [173]
Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [98]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [98]
Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [162]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [162]

Johnny Was's shot ricocheted near Richard Rahl
Johnny Was regenerated 270,503 HP

Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [222]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [222]
Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [193]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [193]
Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [168]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [168]

Johnny Was hit Richard Rahl with A Bolt of Nether [227011]
Johnny Was regenerated 270,503 HP

Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [198]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [198]
Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [243]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [243]
Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [125]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [125]
Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [162]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [162]

Johnny Was shot Richard Rahl with A Bolt of Nether [223809]
Johnny Was regenerated 270,503 HP


Melee Combat

Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos [18]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [18]
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos [17]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [17]
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage

Johnny Was regenerated 270,503 HP

Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos [8]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [8]
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos [8]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [8]
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage

Johnny Was swung wildly at Richard Rahl
Johnny Was regenerated 270,503 HP

Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos [35]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [35]
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos [29]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [29]

Johnny Was stumbled swinging at Richard Rahl
Johnny Was regenerated 270,503 HP

Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos [40]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [40]

Johnny Was's shield flashes! [6,622,832]
Johnny Was pulverized Richard Rahl with Red Rose [6769386]
Johnny Was draws strength from his weapon! [1249122]
Johnny Was cries "Frakkin' Frakker!"
Johnny Was regenerated 270,503 HP

R.I.P. Richard Rahl


Yeah that is a -12 Mil Str you are seeing there from a 15+ Mil start and this is ok right?

As far as the ELB being OPed not by a long shot. With all of the different counters out there right now the only way to get through the crowd is to punch through it with USD backing. Of course there is always a whole lot of deal making and setting yourself up for indentured service for a long time to come......nice choices

Do we want to have an item that prevents a few people from dominating at the expense of smaller players? Or do we want to remove the item and allow those people to dominate for the smaller players?

Sounds like a lose, lose more situation to me. Can't figure out which is which.

Fey or whatever you call yourself this week:

If you would read my posts, your point about lower NW characters is the basis of my discussions.

But if you would read my posts instead of going after me every chance you have, perhaps you would see that.

But yet again and again and again, Jon developed a mechanism to lower the influence of USD. It is called ENC. Perhaps it should be tweaked or changed to better do its job.

*sigh*

And Jir,

Perhaps if you added some AC I would do a lot less than 40M damage.

Perhaps adding some evasion and/or DBs.

Your character is setup to basically be hit a lot and often with little or no defense.

So vs you it is like using a shotgun to go after fish in a barrel. It is too easy.

could just cut encumbrance a bit and get rid of nw-PR O=)

Lower ENC, by about half I'd say, maybe more. Eliminate PR-NW, nov would love this, and have ST return in melee. Ultimate solution.

What exactly is enc going to accomplish except making it harder to run heavy tanks and mages with dbs?

If damage is too high then reduce it or give us a way to do the same. Crippling other strats by lowering enc seems like a terrible way to solve this issue (however I'd celebrate for a week if NW-PR was sent back to the depths of hell from whence it came).

Please show me a mage with ENC problems now. Or a heavy tank with ENC problems.

I only know of 1 tank with an ENC problem now due to changing from a ToA while still having a beefy weapon.

Reducing damage won't solve the problem. Non-USD backed Elbows will feel the blow, not the upper ones.

very good point...

I really think simply allowing some form of regen, or the auto reset at the start of melee might be enough. Fiddling with enc or damage will both negatively effect people who don't need fixing.

"Fey or whatever you call yourself this week:

If you would read my posts, your point about lower NW characters is the basis of my discussions.

But if you would read my posts instead of going after me every chance you have, perhaps you would see that.

But yet again and again and again, Jon developed a mechanism to lower the influence of USD. It is called ENC. Perhaps it should be tweaked or changed to better do its job.

*sigh*"


Fel* Thanks. It'll be Godwolf again soon, don't you fret.

But let's not play silly little games here. Your POINT here is to get an item that affects you nerfed so that it no longer does. Your point here is to have a certain type of minion build dominate completely and unconditionally as long as it has enough NW behind it.

Yes, the exbow is pretty dang silly. But it's a SPECIALIZED kind of OP. It hurts one type of minion too much. It could be more balanced, but meh. The ZOMGGIANTARCHER thing is not specialized. When you put large amounts of USD behind it, it simply becomes a force of ridiculous power, killing all but a VERY few minions in a single round of fire.

So, yes, the exbow is brutally unfair to non USD archers and melee tanks. Huge archers with USD powered bows are just plain unfair. As demonstrated by your huge score with such a relatively boring strategy (Archers and DM. Awesome.)

This is obviously a choice of best of two evils, but luckily one happens to be far more evil. USD is unfair to everyone who doesn't have it, Exbows are just really unfair to USD users and tanks.

To be real honest here, the ONLY thing you can say about the exbow and it's position in this game would be a suggestion to weaken it against lower NW/ST targets. Basically, as long as the exbow still wrecks your team, any idea you have for making it fair for others is awesome (And I don't mean JUST your team. I mean, there are a couple of other USD archers out there, you're just the biggest and the whiniest about exbows, so you get to bare the burden.)

And Encumbrance is a joke that has only ever affected the first couple of weeks for NPCs. From my experience, at least.

You know what I'd love to see? A NW ratio among your items. Consider it a max tattoo, but more flexible and for items.

So let's say you want a 500 mil bow. Well, this system would say your largest NW must be within 50% of your next highest NW item. And the 2nd from the third.

So for that 500 mil bow, you'd need a 250 mil NW melee weapon. Or a pair of belegs. Whatever. The point being, there'd be no more hyper growth of weapons among tanks, at least not to the current degree. Not to such an explosive degree.

To make this more useful, and more designed to target USD, have it work on a non linear scale. As in, the higher the NW you go, the higher you have to have the next highest.

So, for non USD tanks where 50 mil weapon would be huge, make it so their next highest only have to be 10 mil. For a 100 mil weapon, make it 25 mil. For 200 mil, 60 mil. You get the picture, I'd think.

Bam, no more giant USD archers. Giant USD TEAMS? Yes. Giant USD archers? Not so much.

I do not see how lowering ENC would create a problem.

Those that would have a problem would be using large items on a NCB or those using USD items.

Are there any mages that have ENC problems? If so, then increase the factor DD spells figure into ENC. From 1/4th that of str to 1/2 or more if needed.

But mages typically have a low NW as to not have a problem with non-USD backed DBs. Of course those with large USD backed DBs may have a problem, but I do not think may people will shed a tear about that.

Fel,

How quickly you forget I was one of the chief forces behind the VBs nerf. Showing how overpowered for the NW it was. Finally at 100M NW Jon saw what it could do. And it was nerfed significantly.

I had the largest one in the game and lost millions on it.

So your discussion about how I want this and that for me only is just complete crap. Garbage not even fit for a dung beetle. Many a time I have posted about something I used as being bad/wrong/OP for the game. Not just things that beat me. So get your facts straight.

And my strat? It is what it is. Just like your great strat of an AS enchanter with a familiar. How original! What a genius you are for that one.

So get off your high horse and come back to earth and read what I actually do type. Instead of picking what you want to attack.

And while you give a suggestion, I think that would take a lot of flexibility out of the game. Forcing tanks to use both a missile and melee weapon. So those wanting to just go with melee would have to use a missile weapon and be subject to GA damage. Or make a huge NW sling?

We want more choice, not less.

If it is the big weapons that need titrating, then do it. Via ENC or any other mechanism. But the exbow idea is just plain... well...

"If it is the big weapons that need titrating, then do it. Via ENC or any other mechanism. But the exbow idea is just plain... well..."

You do realise that this probably what Jon is trying to achieve. Without having to cut EVERYBODY's NW , not just tanks. Big weapons - if you cut them down then DBs also need to be cut down, otherwise big DBs will dominate. Lots of people affected by any major attack on NW.

Keep the exbow and that weapon NW is affected against everybody but exbow users. Big DBs get to stay the same.

If you like the exbow's function right now could be to stop that big bow of yours Ranger ending up like a very very expensive paperweight.

Maybe you should, knowing Jon and his methods of fixing things, heed the other rule of CB: be careful what you wish for.

FuerGrissa ost Drauka vs The Travelling Man

The Travelling Man (Band of Wookies) defeated FuerGrissa ost Drauka after 19 rounds of combat
Physical
FuerGrissa ost Drauka The Travelling Man
Ranged Hits / Shots / Avg Damage 19 / 19 / 162,285 4 / 6 / 308,410
Melee Hits / Blows / Avg Damage 46 / 46 / 5 3 / 12 / 2,030,551
Magical
FuerGrissa ost Drauka The Travelling Man
Enchantments Cast 0 0
DD Cast / Avg Damage 0 / 0 0 / 0

Post-battle stats
Richard Rahl
Experience 15,447
Hit Points -296<==7.3 Mil Start
Strength -21,737,105<==15.7 Mil Start
Dexterity 8,313,885
Armor Class 72

Damage Inflicted 3,083,677


Play-by-play


Richard Rahl cast Dispel Magic on all enemy Minions (2,560,008) Sleepyhead found no valid targets on which to cast Antimagic Field

Ranged Combat

Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [1027889]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [129582]
Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [1128070]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [129582]
Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [924474]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [129582]

Johnny Was shot Richard Rahl with A Bolt of Nether [304094]
Richard Rahl looks weaker!
Johnny Was regenerated 270,957 HP

Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [107]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [107]
Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [188]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [188]
Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [235]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [235]

Johnny Was overshot Richard Rahl
Johnny Was regenerated 270,957 HP

Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [224]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [224]
Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [177]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [177]
Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [112]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [112]

Johnny Was shot Richard Rahl with A Bolt of Nether [299702]
Johnny Was regenerated 270,957 HP

Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [120]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [120]
Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [238]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [238]
Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [255]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [255]

Johnny Was shot Richard Rahl with A Bolt of Nether [332121]
Johnny Was regenerated 270,957 HP

Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [215]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [215]
Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [228]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [228]
Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [98]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [98]
Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [185]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [185]

Johnny Was hit Richard Rahl with A Bolt of Nether [297724]
Johnny Was regenerated 270,957 HP

Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [189]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [189]
Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [219]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [219]
Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [192]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [192]

Johnny Was's shot ricocheted near Richard Rahl
Johnny Was regenerated 270,957 HP

Melee Combat
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos [9]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [9]
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos [2]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [2]
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Johnny Was regenerated 270,957 HP

Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos [25]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [25]
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage

Johnny Was mistimed his attack at Richard Rahl
Johnny Was regenerated 270,957 HP

Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos [5]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [5]
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos [40]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [40]

Johnny Was swung wildly at Richard Rahl
Johnny Was regenerated 270,957 HP

Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos [15]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [15]

Johnny Was's shield flashes! [4,034,019]
Johnny Was pounded Richard Rahl with Red Rose [4653752]
Johnny Was draws strength from his weapon! [930750]

Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos [9]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [9]
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage

Johnny Was mistimed his attack at Richard Rahl

Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos [3]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [3]
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage

Johnny Was's shield flashes! [960]
Johnny Was fractured Richard Rahl with Red Rose [743357]
Johnny Was draws strength from his weapon! [148671]

Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos [10]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [10]
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage

Johnny Was's blow was dodged by Richard Rahl

Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos [2]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [2]
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage

Johnny Was stumbled swinging at Richard Rahl

Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos [28]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [28]
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos [27]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [27]

Johnny Was stumbled swinging at Richard Rahl

Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos [14]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [14]
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage

Johnny Was's blow was dodged by Richard Rahl

Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos [35]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [35]
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos [3]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [3]

Johnny Was's blow was dodged by Richard Rahl

Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos [35]
Munch Bunch absorbs damage [35]
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage

Johnny Was's blow was dodged by Richard Rahl

Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl scratched Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage
Richard Rahl glanced off of Johnny Was with Chaos for no damage

Johnny Was's shield flashes! [3,136]
Johnny Was pulverized Richard Rahl with Red Rose [694546]
Johnny Was draws strength from his weapon! [138850]
Johnny Was cries "Frakkin' Frakker!"
R.I.P. Richard Rahl


Now I have noted that I am always training my char so JW must be training because sometimes I win more/I lose. However every time I lose it is hard like this with -10Mil Str and up. I do not care wat anyone thinks this is just OPed. This was no longer a figt after the first hit, it was a display of a beatdown. What a load of crap. How about ENDING it completely with first hit instead of prolonging the inevitable!

Hey, at least he misses you occasionally.

I get hit every battle vs that exbow.

But it seems we made out statement and have to wait to see if the devs do anything about it.

I, for one, am not hopeful.

Doesn't the exbow force people to not rely on one type of damage? I look at some of the rounds with my magic missle damage and vs. a mage shield (+/- an EH) it in no means knocks it down to a few hundred damage like an exbow, but it does severely reduce it. I think that is part of the problem in that ranged tanks want to have all the glory with one type of damage... their bow. But a mage can't do that, why should a tank? (yes it's because you can spend USD on a tank so I can understand why you would feel that way). But I think the purpose of the exbow in the game is to make it where you can't just use one type of damage to conquer all. You have to mix it up a little. If the exbow could make it where the damage done isn't wiped out, but reduces it to the still castrated effects that a DD suffers to a MgS / EH (tack on the AMF if you so desire) ...

So Zenai, I can respect that the ExBow does do way too good of a job, but even if it is fixed where I think it should be compared to DDs vs. their reduction counters... I still think you would..and should still lose to your respective targets. I look at the top 10 characters, and most all have some sort of different damage combination be it a bow/dd/GA/AMF/RoBF/melee weapon or other tat... I just think the game is geared right with how it uses the exbow, and think that tanks that rely on a single type of damage should not expect to win vs. everyone and will have a certain weakness vs. any that use that counter if they don't have any other source of damage.

and about the exbow, it definitely needs some help to not take damage as far down as it does.

Richard Rahl shot Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [924474]

Johnny Was shot Richard Rahl with A Bolt of Nether [304094]
Richard Rahl looks weaker!

Richard Rahl hit Johnny Was with Chainfire of Truth [107] <---that's just ridiculously funny (in a something's just not right kinda way)

How can you look at that and not laugh... something is very wrong. Whatever the fix is, I think it should be based upon how the MgS works against DD damage.

Contrary to reports, Jon never stated multiple types of damage is needed.

But I am glad most people see the current incarnation of the exbow as a huge problem.

I don't think it's anything Jon has to point out. This game is all about counters. King of Pain is the closest to making me eat my words, but Mikel utilizes GA and AMF also, but his primary damage dealer is the RoBF. But... Nov and Opvines beat him and they have a mixup of damage sources. The others are RoBF users.

I have said it time and again I do not have a problem getting defeated( Everyone Gets Beaten in CB ) all I have ever wanted was a chance to fight back. One shot and I'm toast not cool.

Wait, I've been gone, so excuse my ignorance here...but didn't we already see the Exbow nerfed once?

Why do you think you're getting hit Zenai?
Removing the base to hit of the xbows and/or eliminating the effect of dex altogether might fix some of that. Allowing tanks to invest in defense in the form of dbs as well as the existing AC/HP method.

OB: apparently no one wants to have to have 20m HP or 400AC to defend against it

Just a thought, but has anyone ever suggested bringing a shield with endurance on it into the game? Like the MgS for mages? I know the MS is sorta the current shield for weapon damage but wouldn't a damage reduction shield similar to the MgS be nice? Currently the ToE is the only way to get it. If you had a shield with endurance, then it could reduce the damage appropriately (whatever formula is needed) and then you could just delete the specialty bows? (give current owners a graveyard option or compensation to invest into another bow or something) Currently, you can have both a MgS vs. mages AND an exbow vs. tanks.. taking away the ex/axbow and making you choose between the two would be more interesting?

err the SoC... (which is actually weaker than the MS)

But the SoC just absorbs, it doesn't have the effect of what an exbow does or the effect that the MgS does to a DD. Also, the fact that you have to live until melee to have it do its flash thing makes it tough for a lot of people. I'm talking endurance.
And the way the SoC is now it doesn't phase anything in the fashion I'm referring to.

The SoC actually lowers physical damage kev...

Ya you are right.. I read the wiki on endurance and totally blew what I thought the SoC did... then can you consider the SoC as acting as powerful as endurance? Seems so. But when I look at a 5mil MgS (30%DD reduction) then same level for a SoC (12.5% physical reduction) it seems the SoC needs a major boost (and if it's because of the flash feature, I'd rather see that gone and just increase the effectiveness).

And don't delete the specialties, they would serve as another type of counter (like the AMF EH etc) just fix them so they are fair.

Yes,

Fix them so they are fair.

Now 20M HP is impossible to get. And so is 400 AC when you run a tank. Heavy tanks cannot hit crap.

20M HP is hardly impossible to get, Nem is almost there already.

Just because no one is currently running a Heavy Tank (I'm looking at you Hatch) doesn't mean you should under estimate them. I believe you're well aware of what they are capable of given what you saw on CB1, and what you've seen myself and Hatch do here. I was 90% of the way to a permanent spot in the top 5 when Nymandus took me down a peg.

OK,

There is only 1 character in all of CB that can possibly have 20M HP.

So I guess that is a "foil" for the exbow. C'mon.

And I guess you suggest every tank now be a heavy tank to stop the exbow? Again C'mon.

ToA tanks I guess should just forget about it.

The problem with heavy tanks is dexterity. With all heavy armor, your dex is crap, leading to getting hit multiple times with this weapon. Multiple hits vs 1 hit can yield the same results.

I wouldn't have a problem at all with the threshold being bumped, I've said as much multiple times. I'm just not ok with what the "delete it now" crowd wants.

Making it harder for the exbow to hit dbs users with a dex advantage is another thing I'm all for, whatever method ends up being used.

Bump the threshold, don't just change whether it hits. The problem isn't with the hitting or not hitting, it is the fact that one hit is the end. Binary. If you make it so that it just never hits, it will become a paperweight, like JohnnyWas has said previously.

I'm afraid that without a *shudder* hard cap we'll just have moved the issue up a few thousand x.

I do not think it should be deleted nov, never did. I have, however, advocated it getting adjusted/fixed/reworked so that it is not a HARD Counter in the land of SOFT Conters. There has been many good ideas on adjustments/fixes/reworkings that very well could rectify this problem.

Alas many think because Jon did one SMALL tweak to it that it was Nerfed/Fixed eeeeeeeeehhhhhh Wrong answer even NS was caugt off guard since the "Fix" was not what they talked/Agreed on.

Guess what Jon your Band-Aid Tweak is sorely lacking. That should be a dead ringer that an actual Fix needs to take place. I understand that you have family and a job and both require time, that does not mean that CB should be all but forgotten. You are not the only one with these responsibilities. If we can take the time to play you can take the time to update it on a regular basis. CB is your baby time to take care of it, it desperately needs your attention.

"I do not think it should be deleted nov, never did. I have, however, advocated it getting adjusted/fixed/reworked so that it is not a HARD Counter in the land of SOFT Conters. There has been many good ideas on adjustments/fixes/reworkings that very well could rectify this problem. "

I could not agree more.

One has to make it a ratio of comparison of things rather than a hard and fast drain.

But right now this item is just ill thought out. Perhaps in the early to mid stages of the game it may have done what Jon wanted. But at this point, there is nothing good about it. Except to cause more disharmony in the game.

How about cap the ExBow drain at 50% of the STR before the hit, and once you hit melee rounds, they get back 25% of thier total STR per round.

So a 10M STR tank would take
5, 2.5, 1.25, 0.625, 0.3125, 0.15625

About 6 hits to get to near worthless damage at end game, 156k STR.

and in melee round he would regen 2.5M per round, if they still used the ExBow it would hit every other round, but after 10 rounds or so the tank would be near full STR before a hit, get knocked to 1/2, then spend 2 rounds getting back to full before the exbow hits him to half again.

maybe i messed up some math, but seems feasible to me.

Wrath,

There have been at least 5 alternative plans to the current exbow. Each is good and bad, but all appear better than the garbage we currently have.

Nothing will be done unless Jon or NS agree that the exbow, in its current form, is bad for the game.

Which I do not believe they think. So nothing will likely be done and this bane on the game and to tanks in general will still exist.

IMO, if we lose 1 person due to their frustration over this item, that is 1 too many. And a few have seriously showed their disbelief such an item continues to exist.

I guess the real question is:

If you build a team around a tank, should you have to defend against a specific item?

Actually i would say yes.

If you build your team around a RoBF you have to build around surviving the ranged rounds.

If you build your team around spells, you have to deal with AMF/GA.

If you build your team around DM, you have to deal with decay/spells.

I would say it's fair to make you defend yourself against a known threat if you are trying to build a specific type of team. There are plenty of choices after all for ExBow counters.

It probably does need a nerf, but until then, just defend against it.

Your post would make more sense if the item in question did not drain as much strength in 1-2 hits.

And considering there is little defense against this item given it hits those with high DBs and a large dex advantage.

If you go with a ToA for a higher dex advantage, you lose the ability to wear AC for lower damage.

If you go with heavy armor, you have a lower dex, getting hit multiple times.

If you go with moderate armor and DBs, you still get hit those 1-2 or more times every round and lose strength.

There is no real defense vs a decent dex character using this item.

Most of the "high level" ELBs are over x20k.

Look at the x of the exbows in question:
A Named Enforcer's Crossbow [4x5000] (+202) worth $130,370,181 owned by AdminNightStrike (The Iconics 3e)
wooden cane [4x3900] (+176) worth $95,758,590 owned by QBnovice (Dagobah)
A Bolt of Nether [4x5500] (+150) worth $91,139,160 owned by QBJohnnyWas (The Travelling Man)
Scratch [4x5200] (+85) worth $58,150,261 owned by Nemerizt (Team Rocket)
An Enforcer's Crossbow [4x3058] (+126) worth $54,328,787 owned by Angel of Death (Im the Angel of Death)

All just a fraction of the NW of the "uber ELBs" that need to be balanced? That is utter garbage.

Take Nem's exbow, 60M. Vs my 300M ELB. Fair?

Sorry nov, I misunderstood... I thought by "threshold" you meant changing the overall curve on how much drain the exbow does, not just when it kicks in.

I agree, slightly moving the point where drain goes from nothing to everything would be pointless. The fact that it happens so suddenly and step-wise is the problem, not _where_ that retarded behavior occurs.

It still amazes me that we don't at least try to flatten that step a little bit. It completely polarizes everyone. Johnnywas thinks the exbow will instantly become a paperweight unless it drains everything when it reaches that step. Others say it needs deleting. I just keep saying "tweak the curve" to no effect. Dang it all if the discussion about the damn thing isn't just as brain-dead step-wise as the stupid weapon itself! When did CB become so entirely polarized, all the way from game-play elements to the very marrow of the community? Come on.

"When did CB become so entirely polarized, all the way from game-play elements to the very marrow of the community?"

The exact time was when we were given super evasion. Which became a very +/- type of system.

Which is what quite a few people think is in the best interests of the game.

I disagree and believe soft caps and more variability is best.

People still do not understand that lowering a tanks strength by 50% can lower their damage by that much or more.

Lowering it by 75% can change many battles, but not nerf a character completely.

Yes, it was Super Evasion that really started us on this bad path of a binary game. Or at least people wanting things in CB to be binary.

I agree with you, Ranger, and that is why I wanted to try to bring the focus back to a more moderate path (and I am not saying you aren't already on it, except perhaps for the quantity and volume of your posts). If instead of having various bandwagons, we all just said, "Jonathan, please re-analyze the exbow drain curve, it seems too step-wise." instead of having opinions ranging from:

-- Don't care of the exbow is retarded, it is the only way to fight USD.
-- Don't care if the exbow is retarded, it needs to drain everything or else it will be worthless.
-- I care that the exbow is retarded and want it removed.

When we all say different (radical) things, nothing gets done.

The math is clear on this. Flatten the curve in one way or another. I don't care how it is implemented, but get binary game dynamics out of Carnage Blender.

No.

It was the Dex based to hit mechanics and uber ELBows PTH and Damage that started us on this path.

We needed a decent Eveasion to live.

In turn that ment that those with Uber ELBows couldn't kill those with focused Evasion.

So that was compalined aobut and got nerfed to uselessness.

Now peole have resorted to the EXBow.

To stop all this, Physical to hit need to be utterly changed.

*It's* the binary nature in CB. Either be hit by a massive massive weapon and die.

Or Dodge and live.

GL,

That is not true at all.

Massive ELBs are in play, yes, but there are counters to them. Far far more than vs the exbow.

Mages have to train HP and DD, while tanks have to train HP, str and dex.

Mages have the choice to train dex to lower BTh but choose not to. Mages can use DBs, where tanks have to boost + and x on their weapons.

1 hit from an elb does not win the battle for a tank. It takes multiple hits from a 300+M ELB to win a battle. Vs 1-2 hits from a 60M NW exbow.

Super Evasion was too powerful due to its ability to be super boosted and the multipliers in ranged based on the effect, not the level.

Have you forgotten the top characters in CB in the past have been mages?

It is only with the recent decline in CB prices, some of which are due to NUB sellouts flooding the market, that ELBs are so high.

So again, if the problem is high NW weapons, why not use ENC to fix it. Like it was told to us it was designed for in the first place.

Keep the exbow, but flatten the curve or make it so one cannot be drained below a certain % of your strength, or have strength regenerate. But this hit and win vs miss and lose is so what CB and soft caps stand for.

I agree, a lot of things have been binary for a long time, and I've always railed against each and every one of them (it's a reason I hate clans, in fact! You have to be in one to be competitive! BINARY!)

Binary natures tend to spread because once one thing becomes binary, other things follow. Buff, nerf, foil, counter, layer upon layer.
But for years and years, all I ever heard about all that was, "Hey man, that's the 'rock, scissors, paper' thing. It's totally AWESOME!!!!!!"

Yeah. Awesome.

We're seeing binary game mechanics reducing CB to a "OP of the day" house of cards. Won't be long until the over-complexity crumbles it.

"Mages have the choice to train dex"

That's about as much of an option as telling an archer not to train archery to save XP...

Evaison *was* buffed purely to give us an option (apart form an absurdly high AC set) to live versus Massive ELBows.

And tanks have the choice to train only 1M dex vs 6M dex.

It is a choice that one has to live with.

Mages have defenses vs massive ELBs. Tanks essentially have none vs the exbow.

Oh and if you really want to support the "None Tanks Train DEX" stance, I'm afraid the answer to you is Train EC to lower the damage done on the EXBow so it doens't drain you.

There you go. Problem sorted.

As much as training DEX on a Mage would sort anything...

I would use EC, however we both know it is possibly the weakest spell out there.

Training DEX on a Mage is weaker.

I'm curious how EC got to be the weakest spell out there since the only change since you put 50% of your XP into it was a buff for it.

I hold the same low opinion of it actually, just wondering how it got there.

EC's lack of popularity displays how specificity is rewarded here. Instead of doing one thing well, EC does two things, poorly. You can't get enough of it to consistently nuke all DX and STR in an opponent, and while the exbow is there to completely nullify tanks, why invest in it?

The specificity in the game was, in a way, the start of the binary nature of things, and the whole rock/scissors/paper spiral.

EC is weak because you would be hard pushed to train enough to do any real harm to a top end tank's stats.

For instance you would need about a 14 million level EC to completely nullify my strength. (And yes I know you can do that for much much cheaper on an exbow lol)

You see, having a spell that only puts a dent into a tank's strength is what makes it the weakest spell in the game, because it's not enough to dent the strength, you need to nullify it.

The biggest EC in the game is over 7 mill in level.

It casts for this:

Plane cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (3977259)

Leaving me with something over 3 mill in ST. I still then hit for around 700k per strike with my Morg, and win the battle.

Half my strength gone but only about a third of my damage removed.

That's why I think an exbow that only reduces a portion of strength is useless. It's certainly why EC doesn't cut it against the big tanks near the top.