My problem with NUB sellouts (in General)
November 21 2009 9:42 AM EST
I guess I have not made my position on this crystal clear.
The NUB was designed to help new players catch up to older ones. In both money and MPR. While not a perfect system, it is what we currently have. I would prefer a rolling bonus but that is another discussion. Plenty of players have used the NUB to grow a character and play in the top ranks.
I have a problem with people taking this advanced mechanism and then selling out with the money made from this accelerated system.
Opposed to people selling money gained by normal fighting without any accelerated bonus.
People have asked, rightly so, when is it acceptable to sell out. Which is a great question.
I believe selling out the NUB cash is unacceptable, while selling normal gained cash is acceptable.
Call me hypocritical, or a butthead, or anything else. However it is what I personally believe is right. For those that think I get joy out of my "power play" that is just stupid and myopic. I want the game to be healthy and for people to want to play for the enjoyment of the game.
If I point to a specific NUB selling out, it is not a personal attack on that NUB contrary to what others think. It is my problem with the NUB and the ability to sell NUB gotten cash. Which was designed to help a user grow a character. Not to sell out.
I take it as an insult to play during the advanced stage of the game (the NUB), and not bother to play during the normal grinding phase.
For people who continue to play CB, I feel playing for 2 times the NUB length, currently 1 year, dilutes their NUB gains enough. But that is my personal opinion.
I hope this explains my point of view better.
The only viable solution to this is make NUB money take another form that is only usable in auctions, stores, and the blacksmith.
Further crippling the already severely injured item market, and starting a scary precedent whereupon a case for eliminating player to player xfers altogether could be built.
I agree with your overall standpoint on the situation but not how you are going about it. I understand how passionate you are about this Ranger, and to a point I totally agree.
Your methods, however, leave something to be desired. That thing desired is personal control which you seem to be remiss to display in many situations. Seriously you tend to take things way to far Ranger which is completely unnecessary.
No one should have the right to tell another what they can and cannot do not matter how much they do not like it. I abhor the fact that NUBs sellout but you know what there are situations that sometimes demand it(not everyone has a really good job like you Ranger). In other situations yes they are only here to make a buck which is not cool but you know what that is a personal OPINION.
I have had to come to terms on the fact that no matter what I do not have the right to tell someone else that they must follow my ideology and principles. Doing that is oppression Ranger, and it is what you are attempting to do in this situation. I do not now nor will I ever agree with this method.
This is not a personal attack Ranger, so let's not make this personal ok?
November 21 2009 10:52 AM EST
You can think of it as "oppression", however I am stating my opinion.
If others take it to be too forceful, so be it.
But I could not care less about RL issues, one is using the NUB's super advantage to make money in order to sell out. That is NOT what the NUB was designed to do. So give me any number of excuses, I do not care. I was poor when I was in college, but I had a job, went to school and did not live above my means. I never had my parents help after I left at age 17. But that is beside the point.
And who even knows if some of these excuses are made up or real. People never lie on an online game, no never :)
And I cannot prevent NUB sellouts contrary to what people think. But I can point them out when they occur. If others wish to buy from them, there is nothing I can do about it.
November 21 2009 11:09 AM EST
Carry on, Joe McCarthy! The land of CB is in your debt for your fearless vigilance!
November 21 2009 11:15 AM EST
And now the personal attacks come.
oh cmon that was funny...
That's a valid criticism of your tactics, rather than petition for change you've made this a moral issue.
November 21 2009 11:21 AM EST
Funny to one person is insulting to another.
But I have tried and tried to get the NUB changed. In the absence of that, I am stating my opinion on NUB sellouts.
Then get personally attacked for it.
I guess 2 wrongs make a right in some peoples mind.
November 21 2009 11:34 AM EST
You reap what you sew, Ranger. You can't have it both ways. Free speech applies to me, as well. You have the right to pinpoint specific NUBs and I have the right to illustrate what I believe this to be: a witch hunt. A righteous, indignant, in-our-faces witch hunt. And that already has a word for it that history gave us: McCarthyism.
And before you say, "But I'm right on this, I have the right to do it, and I am doing it to help the community," think for a second. Guys like McCarthy did and would say the _exact_ same thing.
Oops, too late. You've already made statements to that effect both in public and private.
Hence my post.
if people weren't buying cb, no one would try to sell. it is the purchasers of cb that create the market regardless of how you break down the sellers.
the only hypocrisy i see here is that some of the biggest buyers of cb, throughout its history, are the ones who are now most vocal against sellers in a market they themselves created.
i really have nothing against any of that but have wanted, since cb2 was announced, a closed system. one where looking at a team's net worth would show how hard they had worked in the game. at the time i never realized that we wouldn't have any other stat that really does that.
November 21 2009 11:43 AM EST
You are completely and totally incorrect and wrong.
My point is to the NUB cash, not to attack personally players. I point out them selling out but do not attack them as people. I state do not buy from them.
In fact my post about rr was nothing on the person but the NUB cash sellout.
He made it personal on his 4:36 post.
If you cannot see the difference and continue to attack me personally that is your mistake and is a poor decision on your part.
Like you hating the exbow. Do you personally attack those that use it? It seems by your statements in this thread, any post against the exbow is a personal attack on those that use it.
I have no problems with novice, Nem or other people using that item. I have a problem with that item and its role in CB.
The same with the NUB. I have little problem with the people playing the NUB, but when they sell out of the NUB cash that was given to them on a silver platter, yes, I have a problem.
So which is it Sut? If you have a problem with something in CB and state that problem do you also have a problem with those using it?
It seems by your posts you do. I do not.
So only 5 year Vets are allow to sell out?
That's the kind of elitism that CB2 and the bonuses were created to stop.
The NUB is there to give you exactly the same *potential*, for both Cash and NW, as someone starting on 1st Jan 2005. It *needs* to, otherwise new players can't hope to compete with Vets who;ve had 5+ years worth of purchasing from sell outs to bump thier Weapons and Armour.
If the problem is with selling out itself, well, you can see where this of discussion would go. ;)
November 21 2009 11:48 AM EST
I hate to be the voice of reason, but if CB did not have people buying/selling CB, I doubt there would be 50 people active in the game.
The ability to buy/sell is an integral part of the game.
I do buy CB, and admit that. But I have tried not to buy from NUB sellouts. I have in the past and am wrong for it. But in the past year I have not. Or tried not to.
However, this post is not about the USD/CB buying/selling. It was about my reason for disliking the NUB sellouts. But others have turned it into a personal attack on me. Which is wrong and disrespectful. But I expect no less from some people.
But no where have I personally attacked a NUB sellout other than to point them out as sellers. And asked others not to buy from them.
If any personal attacks were made, it was from the NUB sellouts against me that I responded to. And even then I tried to be as neutral to their vicious attacks on me and my character. Or lack of one :)
But to have Sut state I am being McCarthy like is insulting to a very high degree. Nothing I have done with my anti-NUB sellout posts.
November 21 2009 11:49 AM EST
"So only 5 year Vets are allow to sell out? "
GL, did you even read my first post at all?
Do you understand my post?
"I have little problem with the people playing the NUB, but when they sell out of the NUB cash that was given to them on a silver platter, yes, I have a problem."
Yes, I read the thread. I've read all the NUB sell out threads.
November 21 2009 11:52 AM EST
"For people who continue to play CB, I feel playing for 2 times the NUB length, currently 1 year, dilutes their NUB gains enough. But that is my personal opinion. "
Did you read that when you posted about only having 5 year vets being able to sell out?
"I hate to be the voice of reason, but if CB did not have people buying/selling CB, I doubt there would be 50 people active in the game."
did you take no notice of my recent poll? it appears that many would create characters with no transfers if they could.
as for your other points, what can be done with transfers that couldn't be done without them?
I'll try to explain.
You (must) feel it's ok for some CBers to be able to sell out. You don't think it's right for anyone who's had a NUB to sel out.
Time after the bonus fnishes is irrelevent.
Anyone with a NUB selling otu is wrong.
The NUB started a wek after CB2 did.
So only 5 year vets there for that first week, without a version of the NUB, are able to sell out.
and ranger you do have to admit the hypocrisy involved in your statement that you used to buy from nubs but try not to now. are you buying as much as you used to period? how is this different from old married folks proclaiming abstinence is the best birth control now that they no longer have that temptation?
"I believe selling out the NUB cash is unacceptable, while selling normal gained cash is acceptable."
That's 5 year Vets than.
As for older NUB's who might have been out of it for years, how are you going to tell if they're selling thier ill-gotten NUB gains, or rewards from fighitng on after it?
I seriosuly don't think you can.
So you'll have to boycott all sell outs that ever had a NUB.
November 21 2009 11:58 AM EST
"You (must) feel it's ok for some CBers to be able to sell out. You don't think it's right for anyone who's had a NUB to sel out. "
Again, you have not read my point in its entirety and continue to misinterpret my view.
I have not stated ANYONE who ever in the past has had a NUB selling CB is wrong.
I am stating that selling NUB earned cash is bad, and what I am against.
I cannot state that any clearer and thought I did in my first post.
I hoped this statement made sense, but apparently it did not:
"For people who continue to play CB, I feel playing for 2 times the NUB length, currently 1 year, dilutes their NUB gains enough. But that is my personal opinion. "
Opps! I did miss that line. My bad.
November 21 2009 12:01 PM EST
If your point is not to attack players, Ranger, then don't do so.
We can agree to disagree on whether or not pointing specific fingers is an attack or not. I am entitled to my opinion as much as you are entitled to yours. I think pointing at specific people starts things off as a de facto attack, so no, I don't attack players you use the exbow. I keep things generic.
If you've been paying any attention at all, which I am sure you have, I have also been attacking the NUB and throwing my weight behind the rolling bonus idea. Did you miss that? And I did it based on non-human, non-specific trains of thought, such as how the NUB concept breaks down as CB ages. I use maths. You use links to other people's specific threads.
If you can't see the difference in that, then, like I said, we have to agree to disagree.
In summary, there are three things we both post about these days. The exbow, the NUB/RB ideas, and more specific posts about specific NUB sell-outs (similar to the NUB/RB discussion, but not entirely the same. On two out of those three (the first two), I post intensely and generically, supporting a change to the exbow and changes to the bonus structure.
By your own litmus test laid out for me, I pass. Because even for the third item on the list, pointing out specific NUB sellouts, I don't make it personal. Yes, you say I do, but your skills in debate and critical thinking have always made me take pause. That's my bad, I guess, I shouldn't project my expectations on others. But everything I have said to you, in public and in private, has been about the WAY you are doing things, not the WHAT of what you are doing. In other words, it is an attack (of one can even call it that) on your implementation, not on you.
In keeping with that, my apology extends to the Joe McCarthy line. If I am truly keeping this about implementation, I should have said, "Long live McCarthyism!" instead of "Carry on, Joe McCarthy." I assure you, my intention was the former, not the latter. I don't think YOU are Joe McCarthy, but I do see parallels in the way you (and you are not alone) are acting about in all this.
I am sorry for equating you to Joe McCarthy, but I would apreciate you toning down your McCarthic rhetoric.
In thta case, what about NUBers that took a break.
How wil you tell if they fought enough to dilute thier ill gotten NUB gains.
Once again, selling out isn't the issue. We should all drop this as the focus. It detracts from the real problem and just creates division in the community.
November 21 2009 12:02 PM EST
"how is this different from old married folks proclaiming abstinence is the best birth control now that they no longer have that temptation? "
This is so laughable as a statement I had to climb back into my chair to respond.
I can continue to buy CB. Old married people cannot have more kids. That is 2 entirely different things. If I could not buy more CB, than your statement would make sense logically.
It is similar to a born-again Christian stating abstinence is the best birth control. Would you ridicule them?
I have changed my opinion based on a few things. Am I not allowed to change how I think of NUB sellouts? I admitted such.
the rolling bonus, if implemented with an extended free ba time for new users would take care of this issue by the way since the extra cash would be handed out all in the form of more free ba. <<<<< shameless plug! ; )
"Old married people cannot have more kids."
Now I some someone will goggle a link to the OAP's giving birth with IVF treatment!
Dude, New Users would still need some extra cash, to allow them to have the same potential Weapon/Armour sizes as 5 year vets.
The only way to solve this would be to change that to an item version of the free BA. Give new users some sort of free BSing. But then you'd have to restict them to not being able to use this for other players...
"It is similar to a born-again Christian stating abstinence is the best birth control. Would you ridicule them?
I have changed my opinion based on a few things. Am I not allowed to change how I think of NUB sellouts? I admitted such."
glad you were entertained! ; ) btw, old people can have kids!
i wouldn't ridicule them nor am i ridiculing you. i am pointing out hypocrisy though since you seemed surprised people thought that i was just trying to explain to you why they might.
November 21 2009 12:07 PM EST
Yes, RB all the way.
I am sorry if you perceive me pointing out these NUB sellouts as a personal attack on them.
It is not. I hope that would have been obvious. But it was not.
So I should in the future just state there is yet another NUB sellout without a link to the specific thread to elimate any perceived personal attack.
But the link to rr was nothing near a personal attack on him as a person.
But he made it personal with is 436 post. And I am not the only one who feels this way.
"Dude, New Users would still need some extra cash, to allow them to have the same potential Weapon/Armour sizes as 5 year vets."
they would have plenty of cash in the first year if they had to buy no ba. all of their cash could then be put into gear. it is exactly the same principle as when the free ba was offered to nubs and the cash was diminished but just extending that out further.
as i sent someone in a cm, if over a year someone makes 100m in normal battle rewards and has to put 50m of that back into buying ba it comes out exactly the same as giving them 50m as battle rewards and free ba for that year, no?
November 21 2009 12:20 PM EST
Ranger, correct. Make all the threads you want about how NUBs are selling out, and, if possible, cite damages you feel it is doing to the community or economy in general. And push for the RB all you want, I already agree with you on that and have made several posts of my own on the matter. Furthermore, I still strongly support the idea of no-transfer characters existing in the ranks alongside transfer characters, to tackle this bonus idea from another angle: by giving folks another outlet for comparison and competition.
As for this infamous 4:36 post by rrowland...I just re-read that. First, I had no idea "penis" was non-PG (penis penis penis). Go ahead and fine me, if you can find any cash lying about. Vagina.
Second, I remember reading that post first time through, and thought it was actually fairly eloquent. Sure, there's a lot of frustration in there, but that's what I've been trying to explain: When you call out a specific person, doesn't matter for what, you're putting that person in a corner, back on their heels. In other words, your priming the pump for drama. But even rrowland's comment about Massengill Sacks was somewhat general. Yes, one could infer he was talking about Ranger, but his "attack" really didn't amount to much more than, "Why did you point to me? You shouldn't be judging me on this, so could you please just leave me the Hell alone!"
That's how I read it, anyway. And it's why I try not to start threads pointing at a specific person. That kind of flame-war inevitably ensues when that happens.
November 21 2009 12:22 PM EST
This thread is closed to new posts.