Decay Spell Change Idea (in General)


QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] December 21 2009 10:38 AM EST

What if decay targeted the enemy minion with the highest hp?

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 21 2009 10:59 AM EST

That's odd, on the home-page this thread is titled as: "Change Idea" but when I click on it, it says the name is "Decay Spell Change Idea".

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 21 2009 10:59 AM EST

Hmm, maybe I just needed to click it again.

QBRanger December 21 2009 11:00 AM EST

No,

We do not need another exbow type thing.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] December 21 2009 11:43 AM EST

Well decay still waits until melee and it is still susceptible to amf. This might give a reason to actually train decay. As it is no one really does (my 112k decay is like 20-30th highest, highest is 1 mil.)

QBRanger December 21 2009 11:45 AM EST

Training more decay to help vs AMF and having it target the highest hp opponent are 2 different things.

Wraithlin December 21 2009 11:54 AM EST

They are two different things that are linked very specifically. The reason nobody trains decay is because it is the easiest spell in the game to counter and therefore wasted XP.

If this idea, which I really like btw, were to be implemented then people would actually start training decay like the rest of the DD selections.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] December 21 2009 11:55 AM EST

They are different, but not unrelated. Who really trains decay? Hardly anyone because outside of a few highly specialized strategies its not useful. This could make it more useful and with the proliferation of AMF I don't think it would be too overpowered.

AdminShade December 21 2009 11:58 AM EST

It would make an easier spell to use vs huge tanks, or mages alike.
It also would make using 20 HP minions in front of your most huge minion with a PL battery at the back, impossible to use.

Wraithlin December 21 2009 12:03 PM EST

That's exactly why I like it. No more putting your puny enchanter on your front line for battle formations just because you want to tank decay. Now the fighters will actually take the front line again.

Unless of course you want a SG tank, then you're back to a whimp again.

QBRanger December 21 2009 12:05 PM EST

And for that reason I do not like it.

It makes things way to easy for a puny 6k xp. Right now to counter that you can use a 20 hp minion in front.

Now vs DM characters you have a 6k easy button.

If this gets enacted, we will have a bunch of enchanters using base decay with NSC.

Almost as boring as the TSA/PL minion. And almost as necessary then.

Wraithlin December 21 2009 12:13 PM EST

base decay with noldorin does:

8 mil HP tank with 50k AMF:

100 base AMF effect which turns into around 87 we'll call it for +13 Noldorin.

1/2 of 8 mil is 4 mil, 13% of that is 520,000.

So you lose 1/8th your HP in one round, and if you trained GA, then it's only one round.

So they wasted a damage dealer to deal 500k damage and that's if you have someone that large.

If you want clarification on wasted damage dealer. I see many teams where 3-4 of thier minions are dealing damage, there will be a SoD, a MM, a SG, whatever, very offensive. All better choices than a one shot 500k.

And that's if the enchanter even makes it to melee to cast it.

For such a big voice for not having hard counters in the game, having a spell that nobody trains past base because it's so terrible against its hard counter, I would of really thought you'd swing the other way on this one Ranger.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] December 21 2009 12:13 PM EST

Base decay is easily beaten by an amf. And you could use DM/Amf/RoS to still beat decay and use DM. Aside from the PL minions a small FB could kill the puny enchanters (assuming no AMF since you were worried about base decay) and let your decay hit the big minion anyway.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] December 21 2009 12:14 PM EST

Don't blame Decay for people not being smart enough to train it.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 December 21 2009 12:16 PM EST

I like this if decay is changed to be more like normal DD spells, have the % drain based on how high it is trained, similar to the training curve for protection on CB1 which maxed out at about 60.

Wraithlin December 21 2009 12:22 PM EST

I think that's an excellent idea slayer.

Targets the highest HP target, but if you only train base then it will only do say 5% base. And you don't get the 50% or like you suggested, 60% until you put alot of XP into it.

So in that previous post with the 8 mil tank

5% of 8 mil is 400,000

13% of 400k is 52k damage a round.

52k damage is nothing when you have a 8 mil HP tank.

You'll have to actually invest XP into decay to get a return on it.

I like it.

iBananco [Blue Army] December 21 2009 12:24 PM EST

Decay isn't like normal DD because the benefits far outweigh the risks in certain situations. There's basically no penalty whatsoever for putting decay on a 20 HP enchanter, while you stand to knock off gigantic chunks of HP for a minimal investment. Any sort of percentage-based effect will always be a constant cost once the game reaches a certain point--see the ToE.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] December 21 2009 12:24 PM EST

Decay is interesting and unique. Very useful if you know what you are doing, and also very counter-able. Changing it will make CB very less dynamic.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] December 21 2009 12:24 PM EST

That also keeps it from getting completely owned by 20hp enchanters (completely negated for no cost is not fair) and makes it more viable to train. Good idea slayer :)

Wraithlin December 21 2009 12:27 PM EST

Perhaps the best way to do the curve, let me know what you think slayer, is to compare your decay level to the HP of the tank.

So if your decay level is say equal to thier HP, then it does maybe 30%. If it is double then it does the full 60%.

This would make decay do more damage percentage as the target gets weaker, which is ok because if it is your main damage source, you have to get the target to 1 before it will kill them the next round anyways. And the damage will still reduce as the HP drops even though the percent goes up.

And 60% would allow decay to actually kill people now which would be in line with making it a viable DD training option.

iBananco [Blue Army] December 21 2009 12:28 PM EST

The problem then is to make it worth training compared to SG.

RaptorX December 21 2009 1:34 PM EST

Really that seems like a whole new spell and not Decay. I like to use decay because of it's strength at low levels vs some opponents. Yes it is easy to counter, but it has its nitch. Maybe another DD spell could have those properties, that would be fine. Please leave decay alone, so low base levels can still do damage.

QBsutekh137 December 21 2009 2:18 PM EST

Ranger is referring to the case where an opponent doesn't have any AMF (that's why he mentioned DM). It is a valid concern.

Then again, I think a lot of folks still think DM is over-powered (at least that was the case last time I checked), so maybe this would be another chink in DM to help with that.

Beyond that, I like any idea to make walls and PL sinks less useful.

But yes, you would see almost every enchanter wearing NSCs, HoCs, and training a base decay. Heck, I did that on my team anyway, since there really wasn't any reason not to. Now it would just be more beneficial against DM teams, regardless of their stance.

Let's also not forget that Decay's biggest problem is getting to melee in the first place. Especially if being cast by a puny enchanter, odds are Decay won't even make it out of the gate.

So, overall, I like the idea. Makes Decay a useful thing to invest in, and I don't think the enchanter/base-decay scenario would be that bad...

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] December 21 2009 2:22 PM EST

"Then again, I think a lot of folks still think DM is over-powered (at least that was the case last time I checked), so maybe this would be another chink in DM to help with that."

Just b/c people think something doesn't make it true.

QBRanger December 21 2009 2:32 PM EST

My problem is changing decay as suggested makes the expenditure of 6.2k xp far too powerful.

For those using DM, we already take full magic damage.

Now in melee, we get hit with 1-3 decays vs our top hp minion. With no real effective counter. Except to kill faster. Which is what people do not want, faster battles.

Combine 3 decays with a CoC and that will be quite a powerhouse.

Too powerful.

Zenai December 21 2009 2:53 PM EST

Just lower the percentage of HP that it can kill off at any given time(maybe down to 20% or so), spell made more specific and is now more viable as it can target problem solved imho.

QBJohnnywas December 21 2009 3:31 PM EST

I like decay as it is, it works pretty damn well as it stands. Lets not modify the spells that we have, lets introduce something new.

Cube December 21 2009 8:43 PM EST

Any of the suggested changes to decay would be really difficult to balance as long as it's a percentage as JS said. Simply because that's now how anything else in CB works.

IE: ToE, Exbow

Tell me how many of you have been satisfied with the place that the ToE and the Exbow are in - ever.

Cube December 21 2009 8:44 PM EST

*that's not how

Shark December 22 2009 7:09 AM EST

always liked decay for some reason...seems fine to me...if it works is good...
the thing I do notice about it, only works on people I can beat anyway..hmmmmmm :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 22 2009 7:41 AM EST

New DD;

Poision

Targets minion with the largest HP.

2 Ideas;

Does 3% Max HP damage per round. Unreducable by anything (But suffers GA retaliation).

Does DD level compared to current HP as damage (so starts to ramp up, if the targets HP drop at all. Might not with PL and VA/TSA in play).

;)

Charity December 22 2009 1:03 PM EST

I like the idea.

AP reduces armor penalties by half and cuts SG bonus damage in half, for only 960 exp; what were we saying again about small EXP amounts having large effects?

I'm all for Decay having this feature.
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