T49: Win all you make (in Contests)


AdminShade January 23 2010 3:35 PM EST

Tournament 49 will be held from January 30th noon until February 6th noon.


* Whichever is highest.
** The participation price can only be won by having fought at least 50% of the fights of the winner.

BarCap January 23 2010 3:38 PM EST

So I can choose to have 100k starting exp or a higher tournament bonus?

QBJohnnywas January 23 2010 3:40 PM EST

So this is for the old timers who remember the way tourneys used to be then? Like me....

Lord Bob January 23 2010 3:52 PM EST

Nice.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 23 2010 4:03 PM EST

I am assuming you only win cash? Not the items they get too right?

AdminShade January 23 2010 4:18 PM EST

"So I can choose..."

You start with 100k exp and have -50% Tournament Bonus. The only choice you have is enter or not enter.


"I am assuming you only win cash?"

You assume correctly, no items can be won for this tournament.

Joel January 23 2010 5:23 PM EST

So, we don't get any of the money that our tourney character spent, just the money the character has on hand?

AdminShade January 23 2010 5:25 PM EST

Indeed, just on hand at the time your character is auto retired on the next Saturday.

People estimate maximum money could be around 1 mil.

#1 (most rich) will take all
#2 and 3 will take 75%
rest will take 50% or 100k whichever will be highest.

Requirement for the 100k will be that you have spent a minimum of 60% of the BA of the winner.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 23 2010 5:26 PM EST

nice!

AdminShade January 23 2010 5:26 PM EST

Increased starting exp to 250k.

No decay will be allowed, other things I'll be thinking about

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] January 23 2010 5:53 PM EST

This one sounds fun!

BarCap January 23 2010 6:14 PM EST

BA cap?

DoS January 23 2010 6:41 PM EST

Doubtful @ BA Cap

Soul Crusher January 23 2010 11:07 PM EST

Sounds good. You have my blessing.

Messbrutal January 23 2010 11:43 PM EST

I really love this simple tourney concept and I love even more the fact I will be on vacation for that specific week.

Count me in for sure.

Demigod January 24 2010 1:05 AM EST

We'll all run mage/enchanter strats with lesser tats... which means the winner will be the person who can chase down and maintain the best challenge bonus. Crap, that's the part I stink at. Oh well, count me in. Though I'd love to see the 100k floor get lifted 200k. :)

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 January 24 2010 1:10 AM EST

Everyone takes home all of the money they win, not just the top 3. There will be no participation prize in this one, but the prize WAS increased to 200k, and will be payed out at 200k in T48 as well.

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] January 24 2010 2:01 AM EST

Now I am just confused. Y'all need to hammer down what the tournament is going to be. Is it
"#1 (most rich) will take all
#2 and 3 will take 75%
rest will take 50% or 100k whichever will be highest."
or is it "Everyone takes home all of the money they win, not just the top 3."

Miandrital January 24 2010 2:09 AM EST

If it is everyone takes home their money, it isn't really a tournament then, it is just a way to give everyone free money.

There has to be some kind of win condition or something to make it more interesting.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] January 24 2010 2:10 AM EST

Well, if I make the most money, I'm just going to count myself the winner...

Newlin [SeeD] January 24 2010 2:13 AM EST

You could give a cash bonus to the top three money makers or mpr. First takes 500k plus their winnings, second takes 250k and winnings, and third takes 100k plus winnings.

DoS January 24 2010 2:38 PM EST

Sweet, I do think I will be participating for free money and a look at that T store ;)

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 January 24 2010 2:40 PM EST

Whoops, didn't see Shade's post. His tourney, his rules.

AdminShade January 24 2010 6:10 PM EST

updates in 1st post.

DoS January 24 2010 7:08 PM EST

Winner with highest NW? That's mean; so it is possible that the winner will not make as much cash as someone else, isn't it?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 24 2010 7:20 PM EST

I figured that twist would get added at some point :)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 24 2010 7:32 PM EST

Hmm a forging tourney...

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 24 2010 8:14 PM EST

This is going to be a really interesting tourney. I might join in if i have spare time amongst my NCB and School Work.

Sickone January 24 2010 8:47 PM EST

This is all a bit confusing...

If everybody gets all cash they have on themselves regardless of... anything, what exactly does the winner get on top of that ?
Also, if it's a NW win, isn't that kind of weird ? The winner would have to sacrifice from his own final prize to get the win, so what's the point if everybody walks off with all the money anyway ?

Seriously, somebody needs to rethink this long and hard and spell things out, because it doesn't make a lot of sense as the rules and prizes are described right now.

No offense, just saying we need clarifications.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 January 24 2010 8:51 PM EST

Clarifications are coming, we are working out the details on prizes, and the main post will be updated when the time comes.

AdminShade January 25 2010 1:03 AM EST

Clarifications will come indeed, and the winner will win more than the #2 and #3 who in their turn will make more than 'the rest'.

AdminShade January 25 2010 12:01 PM EST

another update with some clarifications.

Demigod January 25 2010 12:11 PM EST

I love the changes. I'm definitely in.

Joel January 25 2010 12:37 PM EST

Does the NW calculation include the money you have on hand, or do you have to BS it into your equipment to affect your NW?

QBRanger January 25 2010 12:45 PM EST

NW is NW

Cash is cash.

Neither the 2 shall meet.

AdminShade January 25 2010 12:46 PM EST

The NW calculation does not include the money of course. You will have to BS your items up to make the NW on your character. I will judge the NW from the highest NW stats page.

Vicious Cat January 25 2010 6:55 PM EST

I have some general questions on Tourneys

What exactly does Tournament Bonus mean?

How do you access the Tournament Store?

What is this [Test] thing about - do you have to play twice as much? Do you do this before the tourney starts, or during it?

Why no Decay?

And specifically on this one
Tattoo or not?

Actually, that gives me another general question
You can't transfer an item that you own onto a Tourney char right?

Oh, and is "BA Cap" per day or overall, so I can do the whole thing in one day if I wanted? (OK, I can see that would be pretty silly - I'm not that naive; but still...)

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 January 25 2010 7:01 PM EST

What exactly does Tournament Bonus mean?


Same as a NUB bonus rate.
How do you access the Tournament Store?


It replaces the normal store for T-characters
What is this [Test] thing about - do you have to play twice as much? Do you do this before the tourney starts, or during it?


Test characters are not bound by the rules of the tournament, and are optional, but cannot win prizes.
Why no Decay?


Because.
And specifically on this one. Tattoo or not?


Tattoos are no longer prohibited with the advent of the T-store.

You can't transfer an item that you own onto a Tourney char right?


Correct

Oh, and is "BA Cap" per day or overall, so I can do the whole thing in one day if I wanted? (OK, I can see that would be pretty silly - I'm not that naive; but still...)


Total, but normal BA regen applies.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] January 25 2010 7:05 PM EST

Let me try here:

I have some general questions on Tourneys
What exactly does Tournament Bonus mean?


Like you do with a NCB, you get a bonus during a tourney. This could be anywhere from 400%, or 5x as much money and xp, to -50%, or 1/2 of the original.

How do you access the Tournament Store?


I'm pretty sure it will be like the standard store when you're in the tourney.

What is this [Test] thing about - do you have to play twice as much? Do you do this before the tourney starts, or during it?


The test feature is if you wish to try out something during the tourney. You're not actually participating in the tourney, but are just testing stuff. You have to run a test character during a tourney. You don't have to play twice as much unless you wish to, in which case you create a normal tourney char, and a test char.

Why no Decay?


Can't answer that one :)

And specifically on this one
Tattoo or not?


Fail again.

Actually, that gives me another general question
You can't transfer an item that you own onto a Tourney char right?


Nope, no transfers to or from a tourney char.

Oh, and is "BA Cap" per day or overall, so I can do the whole thing > in one day if I wanted? (OK, I can see that would be pretty silly - > I'm not that naive; but still...)


BA cap is total, and yes if the cap is small enough, you could do all your battles in one day.

Sickone January 26 2010 2:07 AM EST


1. I would strongly urge the "having fought 50% of the fights of the winner" rule to be abolished because it can swing both ways depending on who wins : a fighter or a forger.
If a fighter wins, you could be disqualifying half of the tournament (or worse) ; if a forger wins, that rule becomes irrelevant.
The "at least 50% of the NW of the winner" is more than enough of a rule, please remove that other part.

2. I can already tell you that the winners will NOT have much, if any cash in hand at all at the end unless a massive collusion exists between all the top ranks, and you do not wish to encourage any of that going on.
Seriously, do you think *anybody* could actually win, NW-wise and still have _over_ 400k CB$ liquid if he actually tried to win while all the rest around him tried the same ?
Therefore, I strongly recommend to remove the "X% of cash in hand" part of the prizes and leave only the fixed amounts in.

3. I surely hope forging on the tournament characters WILL _NOT_ be inluenced by what MPR your largest character has... or will it ?!?
Because I assume forging will be possible, and a negligible-MPR character even fighting at 100% challenge bonus (not even taking into account the MINUS 50% tournament bonus) won't be able to match the NW increase of a 4+ mil MPR forger... and that makes it so that outside-of-tournament standing would influence in-tournament results, which is against the spirit of the tournament.
If forging does happen as I think it does (i.e. normally) even with a tournament character selected (no special treatment for tourney forging), and can't be fixed to be isolated from highest character... then we should maybe reconsider the whole tournament idea, or at least make forging impossible.

Miandrital January 26 2010 2:13 AM EST

Therefore, I strongly recommend to remove the "X% of cash in hand" part of the prizes and leave only the fixed amounts in.

Agree completely, and I would add further that the cash in hand should just be added to the fixed prize amount for the winner, to still provide the balance between saving money and increasing nw.

3. I surely hope forging on the tournament characters WILL _NOT_ be inluenced by what MPR your largest character has... or will it ?!?

Forging is solely based on the mpr of the character doing the forging, not the mpr of the largest character you have, so no need to worry about that.

Vicious Cat January 26 2010 2:35 AM EST

Where do I sign up?

Vicious Cat January 26 2010 2:36 AM EST

Does Wacky Time apply?

Vicious Cat January 26 2010 2:38 AM EST

And Thanks Slayer and Titan

Sickone January 26 2010 4:45 AM EST

Forging is solely based on the mpr of the character doing the forging, not the mpr of the largest character you have, so no need to worry about that.


I'm pretty sure it's largest character on account, actually.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 26 2010 4:54 AM EST

I'm pretty sure it's largest character on account, actually.


I can assure you that it is the character doing the forging that it is based on.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 January 26 2010 8:56 AM EST

Sickone:

1) Will be discussed
2) Re-read the first post
3) Forging is based off of the character doing it.

AdminShade January 26 2010 9:26 AM EST

sickone:

1: not really a discussion needed, with a 1 mpr character you simply cannot forge enough to win. This is a fighting tournament, not a forging tournament. If you don't fight enough to get the participation prize (the 200k), you clearly haven't participated enough. Though if everyone forges and one person fights and nobody would be eligible for the consolation prize, it can be fixed.

2: read the first post again

3: forging is determined by the character you are forging with, not the highest character on your account.

Sickone January 26 2010 6:03 PM EST

Guys, guys, first off, I think you misunderstood what I was asking at point two.
You say "first prize for highest NW at the end is 500% cash on hand or 2 mil, whichever is higher".

In order for 500% of cash in hand to be higher than 2 mil, you need to end the tournament with MORE THAN 400k CB$ in hand.
You can only end with MORE THAN 400k CB$ in hand if you really earned well over 400k on top of whatever else else has won during the tournament (highly unlikely) because otherwise the second place guy could simply blacksmith the difference and snatch first prize from you. The only alternative would be heavy collusion between most top participants, to qualify for anything.
So, for all practical intents and purposes, you could simply discard the "cash in hand" approach and only keep the fixed cash prize.
__


As for the forging thing, can any of you explain to me why is it than whenever a discussion about forging items comes around, on the side of "we can't have forging items" there's always the argument of "forging is a per-account thing, only highest character MPR matters, items are a per-character thing, we can't have forging items" ?!?
I don't see anybody correcting them on that whenever the issue is brought up, so I assumed it was "common knowledge" that forging is based on the highest MPR character.

Of course, you guys are two admins, so you have a higher chance of being right, but then again, how come nobody ever said otherwise in any of those threads ?

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] January 26 2010 6:08 PM EST

Why would you forge with anything other than your highest MPR character, unless of course it happens to be a tournament like this. When forgers are talking about that though they are always forging with their highest MPR char because it is already the most efficient for them.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 January 26 2010 6:47 PM EST

Is there any difference if we take away the 500%? Perhaps someone will manage their NW extra super well and will manage to sneak away with a little extra cash.

TheHatchetman January 26 2010 7:51 PM EST

so I assumed it was "common knowledge" that forging is based on the highest MPR character.


nope. forged net worth entirely depends on the character doing the forging. I've tested this a few times over. Forging being a per-account thing is in the sense that it is recorded per account? not sure... The more common argument i saw was that items were per minion and forging was per character ~_^

Sickone January 26 2010 8:55 PM EST

Is there any difference if we take away the 500%?


To be honest, practically it would make little, if any difference :P
Just... you know, it would clarify things... theoretically/aesthetically speaking :)

As for the forging thing - I'm actually glad I was wrong and remember something similar, but not quite as I should have :D

Mythology January 27 2010 11:51 AM EST

Shouldn't it be :
The participation price can only be won by having at least 50% of the NW of the winner *or* having fought 50% of the fights of the winner.

Take player A and B for example :

Player A : Fights 80% of the battles as the winner, spends 1mil on trying to win, so 1mil NW and has 500K left over -
Wins 500K

Player B : Fights 95% of the battles of the winner, realises they messed up early on and cannot win the tournament so decides to max their prize and not try to win and only spends 250K on equipment -
Wins 0K

Seems a bit much imo to have 50% NW as the winner AND 50% of the battles, surely if one fights 50% of the battles its safe to say they have participated.

AdminShade January 27 2010 11:58 AM EST

As for the forging thing, can any of you explain to me why is it than whenever a discussion about forging items comes around, on the side of "we can't have forging items" there's always the argument of "forging is a per-account thing, only highest character MPR matters, items are a per-character thing, we can't have forging items" ?!?

I don't see anybody correcting them on that whenever the issue is brought up, so I assumed it was "common knowledge" that forging is based on the highest MPR character.
Well, forging indeed is a per account thing to an extent, though you can forge with any character you have. Those arguments that people would want forging items is a different topic which has nothing to do with account or character. You equip items to your character, and none have influence on what you are forging. The MPR of the character however, does have huge influence.

I don't know why people didn't mention it more clearly in the thread(s) involved.

AdminShade January 27 2010 12:06 PM EST

Shouldn't it be : The participation price can only be won by having at least 50% of the NW of the winner *or* having fought 50% of the fights of the winner.

Well, it's hard to really tell if player B makes money or not since you didn't include the NW and BA of the winner.

If player B doesn't have enough NW, then why should that player be allowed a prize since that's the statistic to determine who wins? The thing I am trying to prevent here is making this a forging tournament.

One could simply fight 50% of the available BA and use the rest to make a lot of NW. If that player would win, everyone would get their 200k at least in your case because they all would very easily spend enough BA to get half of the winner's fights in. Bit the same like raising a class' grades because everyone except a few had an F.

Let me just say that the NW / fights rule shall be taken into consideration, people should participate enough to earn it. If using my rule makes none but the top 3 get a prize, I'll look for your considerations.

Mythology January 27 2010 12:34 PM EST

Can I ask then, why not just simply make it, you have to have fought 50% of the battles of the winner?

AdminShade January 27 2010 12:38 PM EST

Good point, if someone fights a lot but doesn't upgrade items (or generate NW) wouldn't win the tournament but would be participating. :)

Mythology January 27 2010 12:40 PM EST

yay, gj shade :D

BarCap January 27 2010 7:58 PM EST

Why can't I just fight all my battles and not upgrade items, then I'll still take 100% of my cash?

AdminShade January 28 2010 12:56 AM EST

Why not? Because I made up the rules. :)

AdminShade January 29 2010 11:05 AM EST

bump

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] January 29 2010 11:21 AM EST

Why can't I just fight all my battles and not upgrade items, then I'll still take 100% of my cash?

Basically at least this way we can run a tank or archer setup.

AdminShade January 29 2010 11:24 AM EST

Basically at least this way we can run a tank or archer setup.

Bingo! You're even encouraged to ;)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] January 30 2010 10:41 AM EST

bump for an active tourney!

Miandrital January 31 2010 5:16 AM EST

Apparently t-chars can still bid on auctions, I just tested it out on the BoF in auctions. Is that supposed to be like that?

AdminShade January 31 2010 7:03 AM EST

They should not be able to, we'll ask NS to fix this.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] January 31 2010 2:15 PM EST

Seems like its fairly useless to play in this tourney now considering its turning into a forge a thon

AdminShade January 31 2010 2:30 PM EST

It shouldn't be a forgaton, people should fight instead...

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] January 31 2010 2:33 PM EST

Well check out the nw in character standings and you will see the difference between fighting and forging....

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] January 31 2010 2:49 PM EST

Forging is way better in this tourney. Just save up 30-50k buy yourself some Tulaks or what ever has the highest and go to town :).

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] January 31 2010 2:58 PM EST

Here is why forging is better.

First if the -50% Tourney bonus does not effect it (which I do not know whether it does or not) then forging would clearly be way better.

Second forging in the normal game does not make it better then fighting because of they only get paid 70% of NW (and 15% goes to the fees). In here they are getting paid 100% of NW added.

Third it is way harder to be getting 100% challenge bonus in the lower ranks. They say forging is roughly the same as fighting at 70-80% challenge bonus. And that is with 1.00 forge efficiency; Tulaks is ~1.225.

So as you can see this tourney is fight for the first few days to get some capital and MPR up a bit and then forge the last.

P.S. Lesser tattoos do not grow fast enough to to make their NW past forging NW.

AdminShade January 31 2010 3:16 PM EST

Because they are forging for themselves, they will have to pay forging fees which are 20% of the NW they forge.

So if they forge, say, 100k NW, they will have to pay 20k. If they don't fight, they won't make money. No, 20k isn't too hard to get, but perhaps hard enough (several hundreds of BA for me at least) to have forging not be truly worth it too much.

Mythology January 31 2010 3:42 PM EST

Well wasp has some system I'm still trying to figure out, me and mian saw earlier he had 191 battles challenged and way and ahead the NW leader though only had 1K. Now only 10 more battles challenged and has grown 20K NW *and* now has 10K spare cash.

Guess you don't have to fight at all, somehow...

P.s. It's driving me crazy trying to work out how this is possible so please someone tell me, its like a riddle and cant work out the answer :/

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] January 31 2010 3:43 PM EST

Forge and Disenchant i am almost certain...

Mythology January 31 2010 3:44 PM EST

disenchant? whats that then? :D

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] January 31 2010 3:47 PM EST

heh well this tourney has become a flop... good luck to all who keep trying to play in it

Demigod January 31 2010 3:55 PM EST

Forge and Disenchant i am almost certain...


+1

Unappreciated Misnomer January 31 2010 4:05 PM EST

well this was a good tourney.

Mythology January 31 2010 4:18 PM EST

Ugh, after looking up what disenchant is then have to agree with the sentiment, sigh, gg...

Least thought as mian made me sure of this aft that had to forge to be with a shot at top 3 thought you'd at least have to spend like *Some* of the time fighting to make the money for it...

Mythology January 31 2010 4:19 PM EST

Still though on the plus side, when wasp wins he'll probably only have fought tops 300 battles or so, so all anyone has to do is fight 150 battles for 150K :P

Mythology January 31 2010 4:20 PM EST

200K even

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] January 31 2010 4:21 PM EST

wow. I'm really glad I did not sign up for this tourney..

Eliteofdelete [Battle Royale] January 31 2010 4:24 PM EST

It probably has to do with the -50% tourney bonus not effecting the forging.

Miandrital January 31 2010 5:31 PM EST

I average about $100 per fight with a 50% CB (which is pretty much as high as I can manage in this tourney). I gain about 2 levels on my tattoo per fight. This means about $136 NW added per fight.

Just ran a test for forging using tulkas, and got $6,334 nw in 16 BA.
That gives me $395.875 NW per BA. I would get charged $79.175 in fees. So basically I can forge, then DE the tulkas, and make $197.9375 that way. After accounting for the fee, I would end up with $118.7625 per BA. That is barely below what I make at 50% CB, but at 25% CB I make more forging.

So basically, with the money I have on hand already, I don't need to fight anymore, because that way I wouldn't need to DE very much.

BarCap January 31 2010 6:26 PM EST

so with 500 fights, I can win participation?

Admiralkiller January 31 2010 6:33 PM EST

I doubt it Sk.....at a max of 720 a day for 7 days that would equal 5040 total fights..plus you start with 160 so actually a possible of
5200....1/2 of that would equal 2600.
So I am thinking around 1800-2200 would be a safe margin for 50% of total battles fought

BarCap January 31 2010 6:45 PM EST

I doubt the winner will actually be getting much BA though. I'm thinking maybe they'll get 1000 at most.

Admiralkiller January 31 2010 6:48 PM EST

There are currently 7 ppl who have spent over 900 BA thus far into the tourny.

One who has 990BA spent. So I doubt that the winner will have spent only 1000ba

BarCap January 31 2010 8:46 PM EST

Looks like the forgers are going to win.

Miandrital January 31 2010 8:55 PM EST

Basically, if you want to get the participation prize, you should just fight normally. By fighting normally, you should end up with more than 200k if you fight all week.

If you want to win, you need to forge.

BarCap January 31 2010 8:58 PM EST

meh 200k is fine for me, if I fight normally then I'll actually have to find targets and I'm feeling lazier than usually. :p

Miandrital January 31 2010 8:59 PM EST

You could just use the same fightlight you've been using :P

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] February 1 2010 12:40 PM EST

So what's the chance we could have the "Bonus" be removed or put into the positives? Seems like that would be the best answer to the fact the winners will all be forgers.

And is it just me or is this the first forging tournament?

AdminShade February 1 2010 3:36 PM EST

I'll raise the Tournament Bonus from -50% to -25% now to at least give higher incentive to fight.

Mythology February 1 2010 4:12 PM EST

Shade, might want to ask NS for a 'Mail all tournament participants' admin function as the the chances of all participants reading this thread are pretty slim

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 1 2010 4:49 PM EST

Shade, might want to ask NS for a 'Mail all tournament participants' admin function as the the chances of all participants reading this thread are pretty slim


grand idea! we have had issues in the past where people didn't get info on changes in time and complained, this could help avert that in the future as well as just give a more personal touch to tournaments!

QBRanger February 1 2010 4:53 PM EST

grand idea! we have had issues in the past where people didn't get info on changes in time and complained, this could help avert that in the future as well as just give a more personal touch to tournaments!

While it is a good idea, people who play should take some responsibility to read the tourney thread if anything to keep up to date with the latest changes.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 1 2010 4:55 PM EST

ranger, how often during the long tournament did you check the thread? i know i did about every 3 to 4 days on average and i am on here often. it would have been easy to miss something until it was too late in my opinion.

Unappreciated Misnomer February 1 2010 5:00 PM EST

the mass cm idea i approve of, and my opinion only counts...really ;D

and with the penalty halved is that really going to change the direction its going, i still make more money forging my own and then DE.

Unappreciated Misnomer February 1 2010 5:02 PM EST

i guess what i should be getting at is if the money rewards were higher and the xp remains as is there would be more fighting and usage of the BS

QBRanger February 1 2010 5:05 PM EST

ranger, how often during the long tournament did you check the thread? i know i did about every 3 to 4 days on average and i am on here often. it would have been easy to miss something until it was too late in my opinion.

Every day since I was playing in the tourney every day and spending BA every day.

I agree a mass CM would be great, but then again, is it too much to ask for someone who is playing in a tourney read the tourney thread 1 time a day?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 1 2010 5:09 PM EST

once a day is often not enough during the zombie tournaments for example, which was the first thing i thought of with this idea. there have been times where people missed out because they didn't check in during the right hour. this would alleviate that and as i said before give tournaments a more personal feel in my opinion.


Sickone February 2 2010 9:08 PM EST

Wasn't the participation prize for T48 increased to 200k ?
I only received 100k... just curious :)

TourneyPrizes February 2 2010 9:12 PM EST

yeah that's my fault

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 2 2010 9:12 PM EST

err my fault

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 2 2010 9:19 PM EST

fixed...

Sickone February 2 2010 9:21 PM EST

Tournament spoiler alert !


Wasp ("Cash Cow") will win with probably over 1 mil NW and barely over 200 fought battles, since he already has a huge lead over just about everybody else.
The only real contest will be for #2 and #3 spots.

At least this way everybody can easily get the participation prize (with the current rules), all they have to do is fight most of their starter BA :)
If rules get changed to also include 50% of winner NW, then most of us will be way out of luck, if we don't start heavy-duty forging right about now.

Miandrital February 2 2010 9:24 PM EST

I wouldn't be so sure about him winning ;)

{CB1}Sparticus [Screwed Justice] February 3 2010 9:04 PM EST

Hmm, thought decay wasnt supposed to be used. The pope's has is trained on his single minion American T49 char.

{CB1}Sparticus [Screwed Justice] February 3 2010 9:19 PM EST

I meant to say, The pope has it trained on his single minion American T49 char.

AdminShade February 4 2010 10:40 AM EST

he has removed it.

Sickone February 5 2010 5:07 PM EST

I wouldn't be so sure about him winning ;)

:shock:
You might just be right.
:)

Miandrital February 5 2010 6:42 PM EST

Preface: I'm not trying to screw wasp here, I am just pointing out some facts/bugs.

Okay, so I've been trying to figure out what wasp has been forging for a while, since he hasn't been forging tulkas, and he hasn't really been saying much. I finally realized what the problem is, he isn't getting charged 20% BS fees like he should be getting charged, he is only getting charged 15%.

The major assumption here is that he is forging either BoTH, MH, or BoNE, this may not be true otherwise.

From wiki for BoNE: "$7,820 per X"
This means that he should be charged $1564 per upgrade.

According to the x-fer logs:
Wasp (Cash Cow) 188.220.85.107 auctioneer (blacksmith) $1173 6:27 PM EST
Wasp (Cash Cow) 188.220.85.107 auctioneer (blacksmith) $1173 6:26 PM EST
Wasp (Cash Cow) 188.220.85.107 auctioneer (blacksmith) $1173 6:26 PM EST

He is getting charged $1173. $1173/15% = $7820

I however, am getting charged the full 20%:

Miandrital (Tigah Tourney 49) 70.116.133.116 auctioneer (blacksmith) $4850 4:25 PM EST

That is for my tulkas from +8 to +9:
In wiki:
+8 = $47,763
+9 = $72,017

Difference = $24254 * 20% = $4850.8, which rounds to what I was charged.

This is significant because it means that the econ clan bonus was being applied to Wasp's t-char, despite the fact that it shouldn't be happening. It is highly likely that the 5% forging bonus is also getting applied.
It might also mean that fighting clan bonuses are also getting applied to t-chars, but they are not being displayed. I don't really believe this to be true, but I have no proof of this, so it is just speculation.

Again, I'm not trying to call wasp out for anything, he is not doing anything wrong. He is in fact doing really well and this tourney will come down to the wire :)

Soul Crusher February 6 2010 1:35 AM EST

So, that's why people have such high networth. Live and learn, I guess. I thought a tourney was about skill in fighting, not crafting, unless I misunderstood something. But, I guess if people can find a loophole in the rules to exploit, then that must make it okay. Anyways, can we try a tourney that's based on score, some day? I think that'd be fun.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 February 6 2010 2:16 AM EST

Score tourneys will never happen again, sorry. As for the econ clan bonus, we will look into it, we were under the impression that the bonus did not affect T-characters.

Soul Crusher February 6 2010 2:24 AM EST

Why not? I'm not gonna try to argue, I just want to know what's wrong with using a player's score to gauge their skill in competition. I would think that a player's score would actually be the best way to gauge their ability as a competitor. Is the scoring system flawed? I have to claim newbie ignorance on this one, since I thought the whole point in competing in a game that uses a score system was to get the highest score. I'm confused.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] February 6 2010 2:50 AM EST

Its pretty easy to artificially inflate your score. You could do it right at the end and have even the smallest actual mpr/pr.

Vicious Cat February 6 2010 5:30 AM EST

Can I ask if the prize conditions are the same?
If so, I'm as well DE'ing now and taking as much money out of this as I can
Cheers

AdminShade February 6 2010 5:42 AM EST

Can I ask if the prize conditions are the same?

Vicious Cat, that is useless because for participation prize it's only just 200k now because of the forging flaw I did not foresee.
he isn't getting charged 20% BS fees like he should be getting charged, he is only getting charged 15%.

He still could only forge as much as you could, though in the end he will have more money available.

Mythology February 6 2010 8:05 AM EST

money available = more forging

Sickone February 6 2010 12:01 PM EST

because of the forging flaw I did not foresee.


You mean, the one I kept trying to point out since early January 26th, that forgers would be the winners, and that you should remove the "% cash in hand" from the prizes because the only way that would be representative of anything would have been some form of collusion or rule exploitation ? ;)

AdminShade February 6 2010 12:06 PM EST

I'm not sure what you mean with all this because a _non econ clan_ player won this tournament...

Mythology February 6 2010 12:09 PM EST

sickone and some others, I don't understand, why didn't you D/E your items? You'd have won like 350K rather than 200K?

AdminShade February 6 2010 12:27 PM EST

You'd have won like 350K rather than 200K?

No they hadn't, check first post again, I changed that a few days ago because someone with 550k cash on hand would possibly win more than the #3.

Also because half of the people will win the participation prize, I thought 200k to be good enough for this tournament. I hope that the amount of Tournament players will be the same or more for next tournaments. Haven't seen that many people enter in a while.

Mythology February 6 2010 12:30 PM EST

Theres only a * after the first three prizes though?

AdminShade February 6 2010 1:06 PM EST

Ahh yes, forgot that, well really it should have read 200k then, I decided to skip the first part and choose the second part behind the _or_. :)

Mythology February 6 2010 1:12 PM EST

I'm glad I managed 3rd Shade or me and you would be having words right now :P

AdminShade February 6 2010 1:14 PM EST

Congrats!

Miandrital wins this tournament and wins 2 mil!
Wasp is second and wins 1 mil!
Mythology is third and wins 500k!

And then there are 28 people earning their 200k!
(which is about half of all people entering)

I will shortly send the prizes.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] February 6 2010 1:16 PM EST

What? I don't get it.

rest**: 100% of cash on hand or 200k.

I would really prefer the $340,345 I had on-hand, and I think there were a few others that tried to fight through the tournament to just get a cash reward as well.

Lord Bob February 6 2010 1:26 PM EST

There was a typo in this line:
rest**: 100% of cash on hand or 200k.

I'm pretty sure Shade meant to have a single asterisk at the end of that line.

AdminShade February 6 2010 1:27 PM EST

You got a cash reward, just not as much as you hoped for because I changed some things because of the possible forging/DE exploit.

AdminShade February 6 2010 1:27 PM EST

I'm pretty sure Shade meant to have a single asterisk at the end of that line.

I'm pretty sure I did not, because I removed the asterisk at the end of that line around Wednesday.

AdminShade February 6 2010 1:29 PM EST

Also initially I had hoped the top 3 Tournament players be able to win more than the 3 mil, however the forging/disenchant exploit had made that impossible.

Perhaps next time I should use no bonus instead of a penalty, or a small bonus.

Lord Bob February 6 2010 1:37 PM EST

I'm pretty sure I did not, because I removed the asterisk at the end of that line around Wednesday.

Why would you remove it, then default back to the rule with the asterisk?

AdminShade February 6 2010 1:48 PM EST

then default back to the rule with the asterisk?

I have not defaulted back to this rule, read better:



* Whichever is highest.

So a player with 201k cash on hand, but getting participation prize _with_ that asterisk rule, would get 201k. However, I do not follow this rule and just give everyone participating in half of Miandrital's battles (which is half of 2231) 200k.

AdminShade February 6 2010 1:51 PM EST

On a side note, I could have went for the rule of 50% of the most battles in which it would be half of 4772 battles.
In that case, only 11 players would have gotten their prize instead of 28.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] February 6 2010 2:01 PM EST

You are mistaken then. If you changed it to what it currently says:

"rest**: 100% of cash on hand or 200k.
** The participation price can only be won by having fought at least 50% of the fights of the winner."

The asterisks only say you get it if you participated. There's no argument there. But by putting cash on hand or 200k you make it clear we get one or the other. I assumed it was whichever was highest, such as the other tournament rewards are. Also remember the name of this tournament, along with the theme, is "Win all you make." You then need to correctly pay out the people that earned money over 200k the difference.

However, if I am wrong and it is instead whichever is lowest, you need to go through and take money away from all the people you paid 200k to that did not have that much on hand.

A third option is it's our choice of which prize we want- which obviously would be cash on-hand for the top 4 or 5 or however many of us that actually fought in this tournament.

The fourth option is you just pay us whatever you want and we take it and that's that. You change the rules not only on the last day but hours after it ends to say:
"(which now will be just 200k)"
to correct a perceived problem in your mind in that people fighting may have made more money than the third place forger. Alas, such a terrible problem of people competing in a tournament coming near the winnings of the 3rd place forger. Such a travesty. Can't have that.

As for tournaments, I am done. This latest excuse for a tournament does nothing for the image of what CB should be. It was poorly conceived. It had multiple admins ruling in sometimes giving wrong advice even. It had numerous rule changes and rulings hidden farther down in a 100 post thread. It rewarded not fighting like every other tournament ever but forging.

The "Win all you make" tournament changed into something completely different and we were dragged along unwillingly.

The money really isn't important, no one earned much over the participation prize anyways. It's a trifle. It is just the principle of the matter. It is disturbing to see such poor planning and incompetent managing of what should have been a simple concept. Thanks for ruining the experience.

Win all you make indeed. Until the admins running the tournaments learn what they are doing and shape up I am going to ignore the tournament scene. That is too bad because it is a fun part of CB and offers a wide range of new experiences and experimentation. But we cannot keep going like this. Players deserve better than to have the rules changed hours after the tournament ended and all the other things that occurred here. Shape it up!

AdminShade February 6 2010 2:04 PM EST

Very well, I will send prizes according to the 'whichever was highest' rule.
It rewarded not fighting like every other tournament ever but forging.

I had not foresee this but after all, there are good tournaments and less good tournaments. Apparently this one wasn't too well thought out but many players joined it nonetheless.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] February 6 2010 2:06 PM EST

"On a side note, I could have went for the rule of 50% of the most battles in which it would be half of 4772 battles.
In that case, only 11 players would have gotten their prize instead of 28."

Wow. Classy. So someone makes a comment about how the rewards section is worded so you brag how you could have changed the rules yet another time? This is the reason we need the rules set before the tournament starts, not posted on a whim whenever and wherever.

Also, here is some of my *best of* the T49 thread. All sorts of great quotes and misleading posts to help all of you go the wrong way!

1) "rest will take home 50% or whichever will be highest."
2) "The thing I am trying to prevent here is making this a forging tournament"
3) "Let me just say that the NW / fights rule shall be taken into consideration."
4) "It shouldn't be a forgaton, people should fight instead."

And what happens? The rules are changed after the tournament ends so those that fought all the way through earn LESS than the forgers. Taken into consideration indeed.

TourneyPrizes February 6 2010 2:14 PM EST

Vaynard: the rules were not changed after but before the tournament ended. They had been changed on Wednesday but nobody had seen them.

Because of this, and the apparent complaints, I will revert to the initial rules.


The following players have received additional prize money:
Eliteofdelete
noidraug
Nemerizt
Lord Bob
Vaynard
Messbrutal





Just one more thing:
It had multiple admins ruling in sometimes giving wrong advice even.

While Slayer might have given wrong advice, this was corrected clearly afterwards. Also this Tournament was mine and mine alone.

I'm still new to Tournaments so let me learn from my mistakes instead of flaming your way with a huge post about how this is such a horrible tournament.
Kind regards,


Shade

Mythology February 6 2010 2:14 PM EST

Okay Vaynard, think you've made your point. Shade I hope will walk away from this having learnt that rules that are set at the start shouldn't be changed.

I got very very annoyed during the Zombie tournament as I felt I was killed for no reason at all as I had solidly stuck to the rules.

Both Slayer and Shade need to realise most people
1) Read the rules of the tournament to the letter and decide on them whever to enter or not. Whever to invest their time and effort or not.
2) People get very annoyed if they spend a week doing something only to have the goalposts changed.
3) Not everyone re-reads the tournament post, let alone 100+ posts within it. What you set out at the start needs to be how it is throughout.

"Rules control the fun!" - Monica Gellar

Lord Bob February 6 2010 2:58 PM EST

I have not defaulted back to this rule

Right. I mis-worded that post. Vaynard expressed what I was really going for correctly.

And Myth: well said.

Sickone February 6 2010 3:28 PM EST

*sigh*

Sickone February 6 2010 3:31 PM EST

Well, interesting tournament nevertheless.

In the future though, it would probably be a good idea to get all rules and regulations debated by admins and prospective participants, then "frozen" before the tournament start.

Vicious Cat February 6 2010 4:08 PM EST

Can I kick a man when he's down?

My Post:
Can I ask if the prize conditions are the same? If so, I'm as well DE'ing now and taking as much money out of this as I can


Shade's reply
Vicious Cat, that is useless because for participation prize it's only just 200k now because of the forging flaw I did not foresee.


So, should I ask that my earlier post be taken into account and retroactively be awarded the money I would've made had I DE'd stuff?

Nah - I'm just grateful to be getting something. Don't worry about it Shade - My first Tourney, but I'll be doing another because it does actually let you try things out that otherwise may not be feasible.
Drop the Tourney Penalty though :-P

AdminShade February 6 2010 4:40 PM EST

Next 'win all you make' tournament (if I ever try one again) will not include a penalty to rewards but it will also not have a starting experience.
Both of them made this into a forging tournament instead of a fighting one.

Vicious Cat February 6 2010 5:09 PM EST

Both of them made this into a forging tournament instead of a fighting one.


And that is bad because...?

It was only a week long Tourney, at the worst you couldn't actually have *lost* anything - I think people are much too quick to criticise stuff here.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] February 6 2010 5:11 PM EST

I agree Vicious, don't cry over spilled milk.

AdminShade February 6 2010 5:12 PM EST

And that is bad because...?

I didn't plan on a forging tournament because it has no strategy except for item choice. :)
But except for the few minor things, I think it has been a surprising tournament.

Vicious Cat February 6 2010 6:05 PM EST

Nobody spills *my* milk }:>

Miandrital February 6 2010 7:37 PM EST

I didn't plan on a forging tournament because it has no strategy except for item choice. :)

I definitely was strategizing the whole tournament. Due to the forging fee, I had to balance between fighting and forging, because I was able to make more from fighting than I was able to make from forging and disenchanting. If there had been no penalty, and no restrictions on forging, this would have been even better of a tournament because then the forgers would have to fight, and the fighters would have to forge, and the winner would be the person who best balances the two.

Though I am admittedly biased, I thought this was a fun tournament. I enjoyed having to balance fighting and forging. I would love to see more tournaments like this.

Soul Crusher February 7 2010 12:54 AM EST

Okay, Nemerizt. I didn't realize that. I'm still learning. If that's the case, I understand why score isn't part of tournies. That's all I needed, a valid point other than my own. Thanks. See you all next tourney. =)

Vicious Cat February 7 2010 3:49 AM EST

Miandrital++
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002yuf">T49: Win all you make</a>