New player retention vs. player retention! (in General)


Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] February 12 2010 3:34 PM EST

How are we supposed to keep new players when we can't even keep a bunch of our top dedicated members. The top clan mvp for one year Windwalker recently called it quits due to some in game balance problems.. And I've talked to 3-4 more that are planning on heading out the door soon. I think we need to aim to make the game better for the players we already have and then gear towards bringing in new players.

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] February 12 2010 6:32 PM EST

Wow, I knew I was the reason he quit. He should have asked me, I would have quit farming him.

QBRanger February 12 2010 6:42 PM EST

It was more than just you farming him Titan. If not you, then the next NCB using this stupid (soapbox moment) item as others have in the past.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 12 2010 8:24 PM EST

Why is an item that requires investment in defense stupid?

FB teams don't get to complain that GA teams can beat them from below... Mikel didn't complain when someone with a Heavy RoBF strat was beating him from millions of PR down.

Why are offense heavy tanks special </kicking the soapbox>


Turnover is natural, and so far attempts to please the player base have resulted in declining numbers. Personally I'd like to see CB go back to the place where changes were done without much real concern for angering the mob.

QBRanger February 12 2010 8:41 PM EST

Because you HAVE TO, just HAVE TO use DBs or a ToE to stop more than 1 hit draining most of your strength.



AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 12 2010 8:49 PM EST

doesn't seem different from having to train DM to counter GA or having to train evasion and dex and wear dbs to counter the ELB

AdminTitan [The Sky Forge] February 12 2010 8:55 PM EST

If I kill your mom, it doesn't make it ethical to kill my mom.

TourneyPrizes February 12 2010 8:56 PM EST

No, but it will sure make me feel a whole lot better.

QBRanger February 12 2010 8:56 PM EST

That was my reply.

Zenai February 12 2010 9:03 PM EST

You know at first I was like man all these New Players coming in and having that sense of Entitlement is really annoying. After listening to the Old Players tell them "Oh you will make it into the Top 20 at least!" over and over and then from the New Players the Sense of Entitlement ensued.

What I have continuously overlooked was that sense of Entitlement was actually instilled by the old players. After some more thinking I saw it again and again, even I did it a few times(for which I apologize!). It is not the New Players but RATHER the Old Players that are saying I should have this or that because of whatever(Insert what you want to whine about that you do not have here). I have to say some of it has grounds but only to a certain point, the Devs have final say get over it already. Adapt Ladies and Gents, if your environment doesn't change maybe it is you that should change.

I also see that there is a ton of hypocrisy going on as well. Oh New Player you should not think like that at least not yet. You have to be here and wait until we say you are one of the gang before you can talk on our level. IE stay after your NUB is done and wait until our nebulous probationary period is over. You think just because you have been here "X" amount of time you are the only one that has the right to speak.....What a line of crud!

Yes there is a certain level of learning one must have in order to have a healthy discussion about CB, that doesn't equate years. It is the learning curve of the person, look at Wraithlin and Joel not here even 6 months and both have a pretty good hold on CB stratagem basics and some of the advanced as well. This makes me point back to a few Old Players/Vets that have barely gotten a hold of the Basics and say "Are you kidding?"

To break all of this down:
1) You want to fix CB, change the minds of the Old Players/Vets to something more of this day and time in CB.

2) You want Old Player Retention as well as New Player Retention without the annoying sense of Entitlement. See #1.

3) Old Players/Vets I respect you a great deal but it is time to adapt/change so see #1 to understand that maybe the New Players are actually a reflection of what you teach/show them.



By doing the above we can fix the Biggest Problems CB has from the Foundation up!



The Usual Disclaimer: These are My thoughts and opinions on this matter folks.

Vicious Cat February 13 2010 7:12 AM EST

Personally I'd like to see CB go back to the place where changes were done without much real concern for angering the mob


Personally, I'd like to see CB go back to the place where changes were done.

Zenai February 13 2010 9:08 AM EST

Personally, I'd like to see CB go back to the place where changes were done.



No offense intended VC but changes are being done just not the ones you feel should be happening. See # 1 on my post above.

Mythology February 13 2010 10:00 AM EST

I have to say while I read the brainstorm for new players suggestion thread my first thought was 'well, make CB better and then that happens'.

People always leave a game for many reasons, people always join it, how good it is represents how many stay.

I'd personally do three things.

1) Accessibility
The game isn't actually that complicated, new players I have always thought get railroaded far too early into being told far too much and in my opinion the game should be locked to them and as they progress more parts become unlocked and explained.
When you join should be given a team with 1 minion, a dagger and train page and chat. As they gain MPR or score and hit certain points, businesses, spells, ability to hire more minions and the like are unlocked ONE-BY-ONE and explained in brief and in detail.

2) Balance issues + New stuff
Every 6 months a new item should be released that balances the game more or adds a new strat option and a minor (talking 1%) change to a current item.

3) Community Council
I'd setup a council of players as voted for by the players that act like a voice to NS or Jon or whomever (not really sure as I was away when whatever happened happened) who who ask the community for new ideas and ways the game can be improved, at the moment you could see CB as 50% complete and 50% of the features and options waiting to be added and discovered.

Mythology February 13 2010 10:04 AM EST

Oh my original point, lol, was to say and Zenai, none of those things include changing people's attitudes and minds. Trying to change the way vets feel about new players is to simply get rid of, change or reduce the NUB and come up with a decent tutorial system.

I read in the wiki entry for new players something like 'pick a strat and stick to it is the most important thing' I think that's quite possibly the worst advice i've heard, a new player should spend as much time as possible experimenting and trying things, its half the fun.

Picture CB like Chess, you should teach a player how the pieces move and a few basic themes of play and they will enjoy learning and thinking how to respond to other's they play against and adapt and learn. Telling them exactly how to play and why and they will lose interest very quickly.

Zenai February 13 2010 10:30 AM EST

Myth: Those are some good ideas I like them. Several of the Old Players have thought about and Advocated a Learning Curve Time. Most have agreed that 2 Weeks would be a good time frame for that before the NUB Starts. Having a Progressive Tier System could work as well but could turn away quick learners like Joel and Wraithlin. Maybe having it move forward as fast as they can would be better?

As far as removing the NUB(or Changing anything else for that matter), if it doesn't happen then what? Just keep going the route we are going? Making a rift between players just because we don't like it or because we are not getting our way? I apologize but "NO" that is a wrong answer. We cannot just say oh well it is a problem with the system and let it go or dismiss it. It will not simply go away because we ignore it, we have to face it and deal with it. As I said before if the System doesn't change then maybe it is US that should change.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 13 2010 11:24 AM EST

Z, there hasn't really been any Game altering changes made for years.

NS is doing a lot of work, fixing and tweaking stuff, but VC is right.

When was the last supporter item (A sure fire way to bring more USD into the infrasturcture of CB)?

When was the last real gameplay change?

I know there's still a lot of stuff in the pipeline, which I'm eager and glued to CB with anticipation.

But CB used to be shaken up a lot more. ;)

Zenai February 13 2010 11:42 AM EST

GL: This is a prime example of the entitlement attitude of the old players. Times are changing, CB is changing, time for us to change too. We cannot expect what used to be, adapt.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 13 2010 11:51 AM EST

people are adapting by no longer bothering to log in methinks.

swaggpy February 13 2010 11:53 AM EST

IMO, change sucks. I thought CB was fine the way it was when I first joined. I didn't see anyone complaining about not being to get to the top even when the bonus was fixed at a 168%, this complaining about getting to the top is too hard started after the N*B was fixed.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 13 2010 12:27 PM EST

The exbow has been changed, ranged damage was changed, enc was added... those were all game changers.

Are you really advocating change for changes sake GL?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 13 2010 1:27 PM EST

people are adapting by no longer bothering to log in methinks


This.

Are you really advocating change for changes sake GL?


No Nov, not change for cnahge's sake. CB *never* worked like that in the past.

It was always unexpected changes to outstanding issues, but apart from the Drop System, it was never change for changes sake.

I would hate for CB to go that way.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 13 2010 1:28 PM EST

The exbow has been changed, ranged damage was changed, enc was added... those were all game changers.


They were all tweaks to outstanding problems.

Nothing in game was shaken up by them. It was balance, not new stuff.

And we desprately need new stuff. But, I'm sure it's coming. It just hasn't, for a very long time.

Zenai February 13 2010 11:22 PM EST

They were all tweaks to outstanding problems. Nothing in game was shaken up by them. It was balance, not new stuff. And we desperately need new stuff. But, I'm sure it's coming. It just hasn't, for a very long time.


Tweaks, additions to changes already in place, cosmetic stuff done to the site, all of this is STILL a change. As I stated before it is just not a change Old Player are used to and have an Attitude of Entitlement about. They all want that tear the foundations down, shake the pillars changes because that is what happened BEFORE.

Listen to that, pay close attention to it...... "BEFORE".


That is not the here and now, what happened before we just cannot expect now, not in the same way. It is time to stop pining for the Old Days they are gone. We have things in the works that is great but in the increments of the yester year nevermore my fellow CBers. Time to get used to the New way things are being done. Hoo-Rah!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 14 2010 5:35 AM EST

Z, we need things like WoW Content Patches.

MMOs need new content to remain fresh. Games lke this that don't get it become stale, and people get bored and move on.

Balances and fixes are a differnet kettle of fish, and are required to make sure the game runs right. And we've got those!

But 5 years is a long time to spend in a game, and while for a newer player everythign is fresh, for those that have been here from the start, it isn't. And if we're talking about keeping existing players interested, freshening the game up reinvigorates it for everyone.

And this isn't an attitude thing. People get bored, they leave.

Wraithlin February 14 2010 6:23 AM EST

Not just that GL, but if we had alot of stuff added, this game would be easier to balance, and there would be fewer complaints about certain items/spells/tatoos.

I know it seems counterintuitive to have the game easier to balance with more items, but it is actually how it would work.

For example: There is one ExBow right now, the only other thing that even comes close to approximating this effect is EC, and it's not that close. If there were 2-3 other items with similar effects but slightly different, basically different setups could better utilize different versions of the ExBow then it would also allow for all of them to balance each other. If there is only 1 of the 4 that the community uses, then you nerf that one until there is a balanced ratio.

To use a real example, WoW has many many many different spells they have to worry about, talents they have to worry about, items they have to worry about. For them it's easy to see what is currently unbalanced, they just do a survey of the top arena players and see what they are using the most, and the top raiders and see what they are using the most. Then they go and see what nobody is using. Taking this data, they slightly nerf the most used stuff and buff the stuff nobody bothers with.

If you only have one version of everything though with no real competition for what to use then balancing becomes really tough.

Wraithlin February 14 2010 6:27 AM EST

I guess an even better example of how this would work in CB is the RoBF:

Version 1: Just like the current RoBF

Version 2: 25% more damage, everything but the damage drops off the tatoo

Version 3: No damage, all the other special attributes are doubled.

I know there are different setups that would use each of the three versions, and since they are all similar and competing for mostly the same position in a particular strategy you can see which is the most popular version and needs a nerf, and which version probably needs to be buffed a bit so that more people use it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 14 2010 6:43 AM EST

This should probably go in the other older thread about bringing new people in, but I'll add it here. ;)

More WoWism's.

Back in Classic, WoW had a very inaccessible, 'eilte', hardcore end game. Fewer than 5% of the overall population got to experience the end game content.

There was a masive divide between 'hardcore' and 'casual'.

Blizzard saw this was actually bad for buisness, and have been slowly making the game more accessible for more of it's playerbase.

Now, 10 Man Raids can see exactly the same content as 25 mans. ith Emblem loot in addition to random drops, while it will take longer for a casual player to get the gear, they have the same acessibilty to do so as the hardcore.

And this has seen the membership of WoW skyrocket.

There are still 'hardmodes' for the elite to bash themselves against, while everyone else can experience all the content in a more accessible, and player friendly way.

There is still resentment by the hardcore elite. They rail and complain about casuals being given it all, and aobut how it makes *thier* effort less special.

All they come across as is spoiled brats who want the game for themselves, and no one else. And I think this is somethat what Z is getting at.

Whatever effort the elite put in in WoW, whatever 'worlds first' or Hardmodes they got down. Making the game accessible for the majoirty of the playerbase to exprince the same content (and not just 5%) does nothing to detract from thier achievements. And has only seen the game grow.

Vicious Cat February 14 2010 8:25 AM EST

As I stated before it is just not a change Old Player are used to and have an Attitude of Entitlement about


I have no Attitude of Entitlement. I have an attitude of wanting fun out of a game I spend a lot of my 'spare' time on.
I really don't care how it happens - Rolling Bonus, Dozens of new items, Shooting Gordon Brown and taking over Downing Street, but it *has* to happen.
For me, fun was when I would get a reasonably decent strat and then something would change making me rethink. YMMV.
I'm not dissing NS - he has put an awful lot of work in tweaking, polishing and balancing, but if half of a project's development team is hamstrung by the other half, stuff suffers.
Bottom line I have about 2 NCB ideas I want to try (and can stomach the starting period for) - Call it a year and a half with time to accumulate money. If CB is still the same I will look for other diversions.
I'm not arrogant enough to think this will make a difference to anyone, but apparently others feel much the same. How many can we afford to lose?

Mythology February 14 2010 9:39 AM EST

Gl, using WoW as an example of how to make a successful online game is a little ridiculous, I remember the Beta of WoW and knowing at that moment things were about to change in the online world they had done something that everquest never could, made the addictiveness of an RPG accessible to the masses. Everything else is just polish, and one thing blizzard is one of the best for, it's polish.

If anything the one part of WoW that should be mimicked is to have some rare items, actually rare. Every 6 months like I said a new item should be introduced, it should though spawn very slowly and remain very rare and give people something to actually aim for, like in CB1.

Zen, I'm really not sure what you're even arguing anymore, your argument seems to be boiling down to, people who have been here for a long time should stop asking for changes? Old players obviously want more changes more, they've been here longer and don't want to see the game they love fade.

Wraith, I agree with everything you've posted and is exactly what I was trying to get at. I think you can sum it up a lot simpler,

If you're playing a game of scissor paper stone eventually you have to stop moaning about the scissors being a bit better than the stone and introduce cardboard :P

Joel February 14 2010 10:12 AM EST

Your ideas are very good, Wraith! I would love to see those types of additions to CB!
I also agree wholeheartedly with what GL said in his latest post. It pretty much goes along with my 'business' idea of how to make game more popular!

Zenai February 14 2010 10:14 AM EST

GL: You have hit the nail on the head. The Elite of CB feels they should get and have more and not be touched by the New Players.(I'm not saying ALL of the Elite here just the ones making the noise.) Because of this resentment they are spoiling and turning off new Players. Some because they are not getting what they want or what they got before and are stomping around, slamming doors, throwing fits or leaving. Others because the New Players have a catchup system and it irks them. Whatever the reason it is indeed Elitist at it's core and yes an Attitude of Entitlement is attached to it.

Wraithlin/GL: On the WoWish comparisons, yes some do apply but others definitely do not. Our player base is different and our game is Definitely Different. There is no Visuals on this game Gentlemen, it is all Text Based. In all fairness we are Catering to and will Draw on only a certain Crowd period. Balance issues are different and will have to be worked out differently.

VC: I didn't say we should be complacent on small changes nor did I say everyone's fun should change just because. What I am saying is that Old Players need to understand that the way things were done before is definitely not the way they are being done now. Of Course Changes should come but expecting them to come the same way as before is asking to be disappointed period.

I believe what I am saying is that Old Players need to Adjust their Expectations to the here and now. Yesteryear is obviously over.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 14 2010 10:47 AM EST

maybe it's time to compile all the recent item suggestions and setup a poll

Zenai February 14 2010 10:53 AM EST

I think that would be an excellent Idea nov. There has been a Ton of very good ideas thrown out over the last 2 years I have been back that honestly I would like to see implemented.

Asgarginia February 14 2010 11:42 AM EST

I'll give my 'new players' perspective - especially as this thread is mostly the vets talking.

New items: This is a bit of a must; Looking at the wiki it surprises me how few there are and that there is usually only 1 or 2 possibilities for each strat. There is also a void between the basic armour and rare armour. You get leather armour and save like crazy for one piece of rare armour, then you save for the next. There should be some medium-rare armour (random drops are more common for it) that bridges the gap for non-USD paying players and newer players who need to upgrade armour but can't afford the rares.

As myth said, even rarer armour; or even unique armour given for tourneys. They need a greater variety of effects that allow for sub-strategies within a larger one.

This game features 3 ways to be in the 'top':
- Score/MPR ranking
- Clan ranking
- Tourneys

All 3 of these are 'won' by the best players and only winning a tourney confers any form of bonus. There needs to be a greater variety of contests within the game; using seperate BA. These would be more accessible to newer and lower level players. Perhaps new ways to use the current characters. Simply, there needs to be more purpose to pressing enter 500 times a day. Everything is about getting to the top, and once you're there, you get nothing.

To put it simply, the reason players leave and new players don't get interested is because there is so litle going on in the game. A new player joins and see's a mountain to the top and realises after a week of playing that their strat sucks and it wil take 6 months. They make a clan and never leave negative points. This game needs more goals and objectives for all players with rewards and it needs more reasons to be competitive.

{EQ}Viperboy February 14 2010 12:23 PM EST

guys...just play the game

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 14 2010 12:28 PM EST

οΎ•180 active users from the past 7 days


Anyone got a link to past figures? I'm sure I remember it up at 220 odd not too long ago.

Pwned February 14 2010 1:30 PM EST

Yea there needs to be more items/skills/spells more of these would make other builds and strats possible.

Demigod February 14 2010 1:57 PM EST

Anyone got a link to past figures? I'm sure I remember it up at 220 odd not too long ago.


That's just sad, GL. Shade puts so much work into the weekly reports... I'll fetch his link.

Demigod February 14 2010 1:58 PM EST

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArC5tsbkFbxndFoxYmU4N19BdnBETDFtSHlWVUd3YXc&hl=en

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 14 2010 5:35 PM EST

Not got a Google account. :(

Anyone mind summerising any recent active user trends?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 14 2010 5:54 PM EST

send shade a pm, he can and should set the sharing preferences to not require a login. that allows anonymous guests to view it.

QBJohnnywas February 14 2010 6:33 PM EST

I can see the spreadsheet without being logged in.

Was about 220 players back in November.

Vicious Cat February 14 2010 6:46 PM EST

So are we saying that in 3 months 40 people have felt entitled to leave?

TheHatchetman February 14 2010 7:07 PM EST

So are we saying that in 3 months 40 people have felt entitled to leave?


More than that... we've also had several old-timers come back in that time that I know of. Factor in the ones back under the radar, and you're lookin at more like 50, assuming those numbers were accurate in the first place ~_^

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 14 2010 7:38 PM EST

I can get to it from the link in this thread now! ;)

(Also this doesn't take into account the number of new users we've got over those months either)

Asgarginia February 14 2010 7:42 PM EST

I'll just add in another point. Brower based games have become so much more complex and team based over the last 6 years, and CB hasn't changed in any fundamental way at all. I'm currently playing in the Heroes of Might and Magic: Kingdoms beta and there is such a massive difference in the games (excluding graphics)

Kefeck [Demonic Serenity] February 14 2010 10:01 PM EST

Heh. I wonder if the 2$ sellout rate has anything to do with the less amount of people..

Zenai February 14 2010 10:44 PM EST

Yea there needs to be more items/skills/spells more of these would make other builds and strats possible.


I never said we didn't need these things. Honestly I believe we do or CB will indeed fade away into obscurity. I did say that we Old Players should not expect them in the same increments as in the past.

So are we saying that in 3 months 40 people have felt entitled to leave?



VC no offense intended but people will feel "Entitled" to leave because the sky is blue and CBs colors clash with it. If they leave that is what they wanted to do anyway and no amount of anything will change their minds if that is what they have set their minds to.

More than that... we've also had several old-timers come back in that time that I know of. Factor in the ones back under the radar, and you're looking at more like 50, assuming those numbers were accurate in the first place ~_^



Indeed but remember it is not just the numbers of players that make the game. It is the Number of Actively Playing Members of the Site. You could Boast a hefty 20K Players for CB and if only 200 are playing actively what does it really matter?

I'll just add in another point. Browser based games have become so much more complex and team based over the last 6 years, and CB hasn't changed in any fundamental way at all.



Well if Jon doesn't want it to change that is his prerogative right? It's his game and he will do as he wishes with it, if he decides he wants to change things he will if not he wont. Simple. Change is good in some instances but not in all, and definitely not as following the crowd. Too many doing the same thing will only make room for failure, and loss of player base.

Heh. I wonder if the 2$ sellout rate has anything to do with the less amount of people..


Um Kefeck nope sorry can't use that argument, nice try though. When I first came back in late 08' that was the price per mil. Heck I even bought some for $1.75 per mil. The CBD market really didn't do much to the Player base. It did however In My honest Opinion, bring a few multi's to bare. The player base though pretty much stayed the same throughout to now with an occasional spike here and there.



Have a look at this Ladies and Gentlemen, if you really want Change help sift through and categorize this stuff and Start a Thread. It just may start the ball rolling towards actually getting something done.

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002zy7
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002zuo">New player retention vs. player retention!</a>