CPC - The Player Council (in General)

After talking to a few people about it and sounding Nightstrike out I think it's time to make a thread just about the idea, introduce some of you to the idea and get everyone's feelings and own ideas on it.

The basic idea at the moment would be a very small group of players who love CB and have a little spare time on their hands, 3 people possibly, would act as almost a link between NightStrike + Jon??? + others? that would talk to players and read the complaining threads + ideas threads and every month put together a small brief containing in short the new ideas brought forward and what currently issues were pressing to the community.

This would hopefully mean
1) Nightstrike + co would get a nice little monthly brief of ideas and if wanted to look deeper into some could find the thread.
2) Players would feel they had a voice and therefore motivated.
3) Players would stop posting exactly the same complaint over and over again in every thread and discussion going.

Id guess if more than 3 people were up for being on the council we'd have a vote or something and the 3 elected would work out a time they could meet to put together the short brief and put together everything they'd gathered throughout the month.

If people dont like the idea, fair enough, if they do and think it needs a little tweaking then please post your tweaks, basically please post your feelings on the idea either way.

I'll volunteer my time.

2) Players would feel they had a voice and therefore motivated.
I don't think they would feel that way more than they currently do... Only difference is that there would be 4 people listening to them in opposite to only NS but then 3 out of those 4 guys would just report it to NS.

3) Players would stop posting exactly the same complaint over and over again in every thread and discussion going.
I cannot imagine any reason why having some kind of council would stop players for posting ideas over and over...

The idea seems nice anyways since it would help out NS a bit I think. I suggest you get 4 players instead of 3 though, so if the guys in it decide to vote for something it will be in odd numbers assuring a decision... ?

3 is an odd number?

I guess the CPC could report back to the players also what was given in the brief? So if number one issue for example was RoBF dmg, then people would feel it was known about and already thought about.

I would think these ppl should not only have time bjujt also a strong understanding of the mechanics of the game.


The first 3 players that come to mind for me(that do not already have a CB job) are:

Nem
Dudemus
Sickone

These 3 to me are prime cadidates for a CB Player Council.

I thought this was not a democracy, it was a Jonocracy (or NSocracy since Jon afk)

Candidates*

And having a player voice/filter would be idea even though this is a Jon/NSocracy

You wouldnt be interested Zen?

Wait, you're saying that complaints will still be posted in threads (they'll never be all CMs), then the panel will filter out the chaff and go to NS with the decent problems -- even though NS will still read most of the complaint threads anyway?

I question the efficacy but support the attempt. I've had a few easy-to-implement ideas, but feel bad hassling NS when he's stuck trying to do everything himself. I won't feel so bad hassling anyone foolish enough to volunteer.

Well I think it's impossible for NS to work on the game plus read *every* thread and it will often mean the few gems that get surrounded and crowded by the general complaints and balancing issues will get lost in the chaff, hopefully a team of gem finders and a reduction in the chaff would help.

As you point and I acknowledge, im not saying this is perfect idea, more trying to get something started and everyone else's thoughts rather than just thinking, hmm yeah that'd be good, oh well.

I'd be more interested in a Player Retention Board.

Without any significant change to the game in over 1 year, I would think NS and Jon (if he still is involved in CB) would know what the players think are wrong with the game.

I would agree with Titan.

Myth, taking into concideration that NS certainly will be voting too, a council of 3 plus NS makes an even number...

no voting, no advisory boards, no community voice...

CB was best when changes were done with little to no user input.

So the player council would be to listen to new ideas and pass them on thus improving the game hopefully while at the same time figuring out what were the main problems the current user base has,

a player retention board would... oh...

Myth, I applaud your efforts to make things better. If I can do anything to help out just let me know.

That said, I think you're working with a tough audience.
There's hardly ever a thread created with more than a couple of posts that doesn't degenerate into polar opposite opinions. Whether it be on CB, Politics, Climate change or someones favourite colour, people here just love to argue and disagree.

Looking at the contributions to your thread I fear your idea is already doomed. It's much easier to offer up criticisms rather than solutions after all...

No criticism from me here, however no solutions either :(

Salketer, Im not really proposing a council that decides what is done in CB, thats up to NS hopefully with an eye to what the players would like or what he thinks is best. The council would present NS with everything that month they thought was important to bring up.

Example :


1/3/10
Dear NS, here's your brief.

Ideas)
Items :
Pokey stick
(lot like a stick, though pokey) [Generally well recieved idea]
High heeled shoes
(lot like shoes, though higher heeled) [Felt they may be little unbalanced]

Game components :
Pizza Feed
(optional replacement to fight feed) [Generally the reception was mixed]

Balancing + Issues :
1) Complaining + Whining
Seems to be to much of it, players feel a 10% reduction would be good
2) Women
Major buff needed, possible +50% spawn rate
3) Forum Issues
Possible need for a new type of admin, just forum admin, general aggreance from most.

I see what you mean now Myth.

I still think the idea is good and could get somewhere.

Omg myth I love balancing issues 1 and 2!

That is way out of line.

Many, many times we in CB have offered ideas and solutions rather than criticisms.

It is only after nothing has been done for months then years that things degenerate. Politics aside.

Only lately we have had a developer who even bothered to interact with the community and give some reasons as to why ideas are or are not good.

But based upon all my years of experience in CB, with how the developers have, until recently, not cared one bit about how the community feels, I doubt this idea of Myth's will be nothing but a waste of time.

Hell, if we cannot even get rid of this stupid drop system, something that over 50% if not more of CB dislikes/hates, what use will an advisory board be?

I support MYTH.

T-UP

Myth: Of course I would be interested. My only thought was to propose players that know and understand this game far better than me. In my mind this would definitely help CB better in the longrun. Three more that I can think of that would be better suited for the spot would be:

JS
Hatch
DoS

It's not out of line Ranger.

The significant majority of contributions prior to my post were criticisms for criticism sake and offered nothing positive.

So let me get this right Beee.

If you disagree and state clearly your reasons for disagreeing, you are then criticizing for criticisms sake?

I personally read no personal attacks on anyone prior to your post. I personally read no ill will given, other than to say Myth's idea may or may not be a good one.

If I or anyone else believe this idea is not good, should we just do nothing? Or is free honest speech something else forbidden in CB now?

I'm pretty sure nobody tried stopping the free speech... just commented on the nature of it.

Now if Beee had deleted posts or locked a thread then you may have had a point.

Ranger : Thanks for posting, your last post couldn't have given a more prime example of how one person could post about something that has nothing to do with the original idea, have a go at someone and in no way offer up even the remotest of constructiveness to anyone. Couldn't have made a more perfect example of how some people will do all that they can to ruin a thread, awesome example thanks for pointing that out.

Zen : I had that thread you made the other week in mind where you collected all the idea threads, shows you have the will and the wish to help, I've spoken to NS again and he said he'd really prefer 3 people with different perspectives though a very good grasp of the game would be important, if your knowledge is really lacking then fair enough I guess.

Everyone else : Please keep posting your own thoughts and ideas and how you'd do the council, if you think it could work, how it should work and what you'd do a little differently, if you think it cant work then why not and what could? Please refrain from posting 'well if this hasn't been sorted then obviously it cant work cause clearly this needs changing and should've by now' is my only request.

G Beee, Ranger:

The problem here is that you are BOTH right. Some do criticize and not even pay attention to it. While still others are only posting the truth.

Overall change needs to happen on a better scale an since nothing else has truly worked so far why not try this? I mean after all what can happen, it will not work....as if we are not conditioned for that already.......lol

Myth:

I am so glad to help you out. Anytime.

But I first responded to this exact sentence:


I then posted why I felt it would not work. Then an admin stated it was critique for criticism sake. I had to rebuff that obvious misstatement.

Any point discussing this until we know it will be listened to?

Ranger : it's just pretty clear that you had two things to respond to, you could've either noticed and replied to my pointing out what Titan suggested and you agreed with was simply what I was suggesting in essence just with a different name, or take a cheap shot at G Bee.

VC : Is there a point discussing anything before we know it will happen? Yes because that is often how it does end up happening.

i tend to agree with novice on this one. i have played games where the loudest voices in forums became the ones the devs listened to and all of those games are now dead.

however, i would love more communication with the devs and had suggested a to do list in the past. i think if we knew, briefly & broadly, what the devs were working on that would help more than anything.

i would add the word "frequently" to the above quote though! ; )

The CPC could possibly ask then for a very brief chat with NS then at the same time for any tip bits to pass the communities way? A two way street.

Alright, I'll admit it I love the idea of someone compiling the mass of suggestions offered and bottling them in a consumable forum. I was the one who made the suggestion that caused Zenai to make his list (thanks Zen!). This doesn't mean I think the community opinion should be guiding the ongoing balance of the game.

I like user suggestions, I really do (enough that made some of my own; dbs as a nw counter to pth, NSC, Junction). I just want the face of new item creation and balancing to be strong. It meant something when Jon made a change or a new item. If having a group whose purpose is to consolidate and compile ideas will help NightStrike and Jon to begin creating items I'm all for it.

I would vote for Nemerizt, he knows more about this game than just about everyone. <3

Aye, nov I think I should've used the analogy at the start, imagine what I'm proposing like this.

NS + Jon are the government (or dictator as you see fit).
Admins are the civil servants + ministers / governors.
The players are the masses.
Ranger is the media that just says whats wrong.

I'd say the new council would be like a specialist group that feedback to the Dictator any new ideas or problems, what the dictator chooses to do with this is up to them.

---

I'd like to think that,
1) If I post an idea thread it reaches NS's eyes in brief if it's good enough, workable and not been suggested before.
2) If an argument comes up about balance, then it only has to come up once and not be regurgitated 1,000 times.
3) That NS will listen and have a lot of good ideas to choose from and his own and not have to spend hours trawling through 100s of posts.

If a player council isn't the best way to do this then please say what is, I'm not hugely attached to this idea, it's the things listed above that I'd like solved and see this just as one way forward there may be others?

Now who is degenerating this thread into personal attacks.

Seems someone is very hypocritical.

You may want to practice what garbage you type.

Just to make it clear my knowledge of the game is not truly lacking but I definitely do not have as strong a hold on it as the players I have listed.

Nem
Sickone
Dudemus
JS
DoS
Hatch
Titan
Eliteofdelete
Wraithlin(Although a NP has a firm grasp of the game and could bring a fresh perspective)

There have been a lot of things I have wanted to do for the game over the time I have been here but have often said there were other ppl/programs better for the position. Truth is truth I have the will/drive to do the job and if these ppl do not want to do it then I will gladly take the spot. However, I could not take a spot that I feel these players could do better.

Although I can say this and of course it is just and idea for your idea. Why not have the 3 Chosen for the Council have three assistants.

Per instance:

Nem - DoS,EoD, Myth
Sickone - JS,Titan, Nayab
Dudemus - Wraithlin, Hatch, Zenai

I had to throw a few things in there for Spice. Overall the idea is basic, One Strat person, Number Cruncher and Idea person on each team. The Idea Person snaps it up and chunks it to the Strat Person and Number Cruncher. Together all three work out the kinks and ante up the the Council Person for review and possibly presentation to Jon/NS.


Just a few Thoughts :-)

Myth:
Either NS reads the forums or he does not. As G_Beee said, even if he only skims threads it is hard for him to miss the pressing issues that everyone is talking about.
If he doesn't, then it's kinda clear what influence such a scheme would have.
We exist in an environment where change has to come from the top. Historically that change has had very little input from the majority, and recently there has been very little actual 'change' at all (again not decrying NS's time and effort). That being the case, until NS (or even better Jon) indicates interest in any idea of player-led change, there seems little point arguing about the actual mechanics.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see some kind of influential player base, I just don't believe that this particular leopard will be changing it's spots anytime soon :-(

VC: Just like Ranger I totally understand where you are coming from but honestly why not give it a try? What is the worst that could happen here? If we Fail, well knowing the leopards spots we are prepared for it. If we Succeed then we have just bettered the Game, worth a shot in my book!

Ranger, yawn, seriously yawn, expected much better from a mind such as yours, go read a self help book.

VC : I'm of the opinion of that quote can't remember it exactly, it's along the lines of 'the only way to make a man trustworthy, is to trust him'. A leopard may not change it's spots but if theres no harm in trying then why not?

I've spoken to NS about it and he made the very unhappy point of not being happy about reading topic X only to see it turn into yet another argument about topic Y that had nothing to do with X. He's said that if there were a council he'd want people on it that would be able to see beyond their own immediate views and what they thought needed changing.

Basically im throwing the idea out here rather than doing nothing about it, if NS sees it as a go, and we can get a few people willing to spend the time to do a good job then the worst that can happen is those few people spend some time doing something that becomes clear might not work, I guess its really their choice.

Hopefully not a potshot, but seriously Ranger you do call it like you see it and a lot of the time you are right. Whatever you are perceived as doesn't matter, you better the community in your own way. That IS what matters.

And Myth, I am telling you that idea, however well intentioned, sucks.

So stop taking pot shots at me and try to wrap it in some pseudo intellectual discussion. I had admired you for a while, not anymore. In fact, I am beginning to loath you.

Alright Ranger we got your thoughts on it can you now digress please?

Ranger your second comment aside, I do not mind you saying the idea sucks, the opposite in fact. In the past over the years if an idea thread I'd made didnt have someone saying well it wont work because... then it just had a few posts of people saying, yeah sounds good, yeah good idea and it slowly vanished into the ether.

What I have issue with Ranger is you acted as i put like a journalist, saying something sucks doesnt help anyone, saying it sucks because... helps everyone, saying it sucks saying why you think it sucks and saying a possible solution to that helps everyone even more.

Using your intellect simply to do just the first is what I have issue with, its lazy and unhelpful, I rarely get along with lazy unhelpful people especially if they could be offering a lot more.

I personally quite like this idea as it would save NS a lot of reading time. And anything that gives a Dev more time is good in my book. out of curiosity, how often would a report be sent to NS to deal with? weekly, fortnightly or monthly?

Monthly sounds good, weekly and it'd end up just being more spam

Monthly or Quarterly would be good I think.

And we're expecting Nightstrike not to read the forums?
Will it be enforced?
Can he just take a peek at FS/WTB occasionally?
:-P

Will it be enforced? Can he just take a peek at FS/WTB occasionally?
:-P

VC we never said any of those things. All that has been said is that simply there would be some help in the form of a Council. NS and Jon will of course do as they please but a bit of help never hurt.

If you do not wish to be a part of it fine no one is forcing you to. If you are not going to add anything in to help then we get your idea, you do not support this idea.

Now could you digress as well if this is the case?

Its not that we don't want him reading forums, its that we don't want him spending every moment reading them rather than developing the game further.

Myth,

That is the exact words I used in my first post in the thread. I did not state the idea was good or bad, however, I stated what I thought.

I then responded to Beee who stated that we were criticizing just to criticize, which was certainly not true to that point.

After you started on the personal attacks, I stated your idea sucked. I can be more specific in the fact that Jon never paid attention to what the community states. NS, while doing a great job at keeping the players sort of informed about things, does not do much of the major strategy changes or item development.

And I stand by my statement that Jon and NS (or at least 1 of them) knows full well what we as a community think of the game and how we would make things better.

After that, you seem to have taken issue with my not liking your idea, no matter how good or bad it may or may not be.

I think a CPC could easily be done by 1 person who is active in the threads and knows what we a community wants. Having 3 people introduces more variables.

But again, to start on personal attacks vs me just due to the fact I did not overwhelmingly love your idea or due to the fact I called Beee out for saying something wrong about the direction this thread was going, at the time, is quite immature. Something I had never seen before on any of your posts.

And something that personally disgusts me.

I'm fairly sure they do Ranger. The point here is that this will give them TIME to do more of what you have stated needs more doing....Game Changes. So honestly why is this so bad an idea again? It is an attempt Ranger, as I said to VC no one said you have to agree or even like it. If you are not gonna participate can you digress and let the subject go since we now firmly have your thought/opinion in hand?




Of course it does Ranger and therefore by default kills out most of the biased opinions. Through Diversity a better more well rounded opinion can come about. With a more well rounded opinion there is a better chance of Jon/NS even looking at it.

my major problem with this idea is that we are all human and we are all, or at least anyone who would likely end up on the council, very passionate about the game. it is so damned hard to separate our personal desires from the game. it is doubly difficult when our personal goal would also be better for the game, in our own humble opinion.

after all, what we have the most experience with is likely what we will focus on as that is what we know best. uc and single minions are two of my greatest pet peeves and we all know why, because i played both for a very long time.

jon is great because he doesn't play the game. he can look at the data impartially and make his decisions. ns has been doing a fine job of this as well and would impress the hell out of me if he supported a modification to the robf as i have heard he is considering.

any council would likely just be consolidating what is seen in chat and forums. we fail to reach a consensus almost daily in cb land and i just don't see the point saying things like:

~ some are unhappy with robf, while others think it is fine

~ some are unhappy with the exbow, while others see it as a necessary evil

~ most agree that uc's damage curve being the only non-linear damage in the game will make it (if not already so) unable to keep up at higher levels

~ a few believe that single minions need some type of boost


it doesn't really take much perusal of the forums to understand these bullet points and anything more detailed would often be unrepresentative of the actual community feeling.

how would the council not become a megaphone for the already loudest voices is my biggest concern though. there are players, valuable in their own right, that actually keep their opinions to themselves.

i also feel that energy at this point would be better used in doing some exit type polling and finding out why new players aren't sticking around and then engaging the community in ways to keep carnage blender engaging to the dedicated fans whilst also appealing to those that are trying the game and leaving it on a daily basis.

in short, a council of the same ideas we have been hearing for the last couple of years would likely only keep those already engaged around for longer but we need to do something different to retain more of our new users.

sorry if i rambled, i had some house chianti with an awesome salad and canneloni! ; )

Good thoughts dudemus. I agree it can be hard to separate/differentiate between actual and biased opinions. I do think though that given a job the players I have mentioned will in fact try to be as non-biased as possible due to this very thing. We all make mistakes, to be human is to err but we can always try our best. Honestly I think that is all that can be asked in the end.

I also think that adding what you have mentioned about exiting and player retention should also be added to the Councils list of things to do. Taking into account that maybe a summary might not be enough or sending something more detailed would be offsetting. Why not just pop up a link and add some comments to it? this way it would be a few of the Councils thoughts and if Jon/NS deem it worth their time they can click the link and go to town.

...on reading forums...
I read less and less threads, because they are mostly filled with chaff, devoid of wheat. I've asked several people to separate the chaff for me, but it's hard without formality. Myth's idea does that. And, don't be surprised if you see an increase in admin action towards idiotic posts. This thread is a great example of a thread I mainly scroll past. 54 replies, a lot of which are a waste of time to read.

...on unbiased changes...
There are several people that would be capable of stepping outside their own sandboxes to analyze game balance. There are many who cannot. One person in particular comes to mind that is very good at this. People who cannot would not be selected.

...on bug hunting...
I can't fix bugs I don't know about, and there is no good way to highlight what's wrong and what to do about it. We've had some attempts, but mostly, there's just a lot of spam surrounding legitimate bug reports. A perfect case study is the "recent" NW bug that Miandrital pointed out 3 years ago.

...on current projects...
CB is not a full time job. Based on the money that comes out of it, it can't even really be considered a "job" at all. We don't have MS Project running somewhere with a gant chart showing all kinds of things going on, and percentage completion. It's much less formal.

...on loud voices...
This idea will not accentuate the loudest voice, but instead give representation to the soft drowned out voices that are swamped by a few loud ones. A lot goes missed in the world of CB, and every conversation everywhere devolves into the agenda du jour of a handful of people. I don't have the wherewithall to sort that stuff anymore.

...on player retention...
Yes, that is vital. No one on CB is stupid enough to say that player retention doesn't matter, or that it isn't paramount. Yes, we all know the tutorial bites, and we'd all love a replacement. That's really not part of this discussion.

...on the use of "devs"...
I really hate the constant references to "the devs". Honestly, I do. "The devs think X." "The devs do Y." "The devs have ignored Z for ## years." It's very aggravating. I'm not Terry Armstrong.

...on community driven change...
That's not what this is about, at all. Enough said.

...on this post...
I think that's enough for now.

if all of that holds, then i can get behind the idea. i do think then that ns should pick the ones involved as he seems to have a grasp on who would be the best candidate or candidates and i would hate to see it become a popularity contest of any sort.

at this point i don't see how any activity could hurt the game and i withdraw any objections i have brought up.

This idea would work great if we had a game owner that was more active. As it is, no matter how great our ideas are, no major changes are occuring because there is no will behind the owner to add to the site. It would be absolutely amazing if he just handed off the mantle, or at least shared the mantle with someone more passionate about making a better product.

This game is far from perfect, I don't know personally which direction it needs to go, but I do know that at the current rate of change, we'll see perfect sometime after my grandkids die.

I realize the example that been set recently concerning attitudes towards Jon and NS is lousy, but I can't imagine how you're excusing it.

Just because Ranger won't stop doesn't mean it's ok to textually berate Jon, He doesn't owe you anything.

Carnage Blender is a great game, i find no fault in Jon for that, but a great game with an owner that has lost interest in being active is not doing the game justice.

Defend him if you feel you have to, it truly is no slight against him that he's not active, it doesn't bother me, it just bothers me that we have no active support.

Hence..share the mantle.

Novice,

Hidden in the bowels of CB, there are more than a few people that agree with Wraithlin.

And keep your negative opinions about me off this thread and out of others. You have had your share of disputes with the administration staff of CB.

However, I will say this:


The best thing so far that has happened to CB in a LONG time was NS coming on board as a part owner.

For the first time since I have been playing (5+ years now), there is someone at least converses with the community giving some light into the developers thinking.

Things like the weapon artist are NS's design and hopefully, when he has the time, more changes can come about.

Most of my "textually berating Jon" came from a lack of such input from the developers and the random enforcement of the rules by admins long past. And Jon certainly knew how to "textually berate" someone better than anyone with the possible exception of Bast.

That's the thing claiming no active support while at this very second NS is working on stuff is an insult. I see no profit possibly coming from these kinds of accusations... if you're trying to guilt someone into doing what you want them to do you might want to look at having kids.

The difference between me arguing with admins and you being a ungrateful manipulative pain are vast enough I think even you should be able to recognize them Ranger.

I do miss Jon in forums though, you'd have been banned a long long time ago.

Thank you again novice for your insight.

Perhaps for your next post you can get this thread back on track!

I just don't understand you Nov.

If you love CB, how can you not want the final say on major changes to be more active.

I understand we have NS, I'm not ignoring that, but he's not going to add a new item/spell to the game, delete and item/spell, overhaul an item/spell, any changes he makes, although good for the game, aren't going to be huge steps towards a better product.

I love CB, I would love to see a more active staff. I just can't understand someone who loves CB and doesn't want an active staff.

I guess I'll just have to accept it I suppose, I won't comment any more on this thread.

Ranger you see, your last post, as in the one replying to mine had some reasons behind it, I'd say that to scan and analyze and month's worth of posts would get a little too taxing I feel for one person, and you'd only be geting one perspective on it, though it is something I was also thinking about too.

Also I didn't personally attack you, I was trying to highlight in a thread that wants to get rid of so much derailing of threads by other agendas you put
"Hell, if we cannot even get rid of this stupid drop system, something that over 50% if not more of CB dislikes/hates, what use will an advisory board be?"
However by the time id posted my reply you'd already posted another.

Im willing to let bygones be bygones, I think you go for cheap shots and often avoid the hard questions much like a journalist, you loath and are disgusted by me, both of us I think can live with that and neither really have to bring it up again, yeah?

Anyway, I'm opening up a new thread please see it for the latest information.

Zen:
I am aware of the famous American lack of irony, but did you really think I was advocating the use of armed guards around the forums for NightStrike?

VC: There are a number of ways I could answer that but none of them would be productive to this thread. I will refer you to NS' Post.

Can we all stick on topic without making remarks to one another. Last thing I understood from this thread was that it would benefit CB, not hurt it.