AS and Encumbrance (in General)


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 24 2010 1:52 AM EST

AS based HP doesn't apply towards encumbrance, this is inconsistent with how Giant Strength and EC effect it.

Anyone have a good reason this shouldn't be altered?

I'm in favor of adding it to the list of things that effect encumbrance however I'm really just looking for consistency. We could simply remove the effect GS and EC have in regards to encumbrance.

Miandrital February 24 2010 2:01 AM EST

Good idea, anything to lessen the horror that is encumbrance is cool with me

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] February 24 2010 2:45 AM EST

How is it inconsistent? It just means that str affects enc even more than HP. Also AS hp does not increase TSA granted regen, which is the same principle. If only GS or only EC were to affect enc then yes, it would be inconsistent. However all the enchantments that change str before the start of the battle affect enc.

{WW]Nayab [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 24 2010 2:48 AM EST

its more a benefit for the person either of these spells, providing sometimes a major buff to the character they would otherwise not receive. Take away the ability to affect encumbrance and GS would certainly lose interest as a spell.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 24 2010 3:18 AM EST

It is inconsistent.

Anything that effects STR pre battle effects ENC. The same should hold for HP, Skills, EO and ED.

AS pre battle should increase ENC, and (I hope it works like this currently?) DM reduced ED should reduce ENC.

If anything was introduced that could reduce Skills and EO pre battle (or boost them), they should also change ENC.

That being said, I'd be leary of giving AS any sort of buff. It's powerful enough as it is.

Wraithlin February 24 2010 3:24 AM EST

It would be a huge buff to the RoS if you gave AS the ability to affect ENC.

I think you would see alot more of them in the top tiers, and definately would make it the best NCB build by far. There would be nothing else close.

The abilities to give survivability to your team, not have to pay for healing, and then using items you normally shouldn't due to ENC.

I'd make a RoS NCB.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 24 2010 3:27 AM EST

Although, if DM reduced ED doesn't reduce ENC, then there's precedent for AS not increasing ENC.

three4thsforsaken February 24 2010 3:50 AM EST

game balance should be a bigger part of the issue.

Walrushammer February 24 2010 6:02 AM EST

The effects certainly seem consistent with its name, Ablative Shield. A magical shield does not allow you to carry heavier weapons.

QBRanger February 24 2010 6:04 AM EST

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002Orb

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 24 2010 11:04 AM EST

GL: DM reduced GS effects enc

3/4: so you're saying that giving multi minion teams a little more breathing room is going to upset the balance? Single and low minion number teams have an insane advantage in the enc department... how the hell is that balanced?

QBRanger February 24 2010 11:18 AM EST

I have to agree with novice on this point.

AS should certainly add to ENC calculations just as much as GS and EC do.

And please note that I do not use AS so this would have an adverse effect on my character. But for overall balance and consistency we do need AS to give ENC.

I believed it 2 years ago and have not changed my mind.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 24 2010 11:57 AM EST

Nov, what I meant was training an ED increases ENC, so if that trained ED is reduced by DM prior to the start of the battle, ENC on that minion should lower.

Just like EC does to STR (either natural or GS gained STR).

As for single minion and ENC, please, multi minion teams have *far* more bonuses, and is any multi minion team actually limited by ENC up top?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 24 2010 12:40 PM EST

you mean besides mine...

Hatchet is an example of a non-usd user who is unable to run his chosen strat because of enc. Anyone trying to run a heavy tank at this point is pretty much hosed unless they've got one very very big minion.

QBRanger February 24 2010 12:43 PM EST

I know Windwalker had a problem with ENC before he changed to a ToA.

I suspect Lega may have some ENC issues as well.

But if novice has ENC issues, can I change my opinion on this :)

AdminTitan February 24 2010 2:28 PM EST

"Single and low minion number teams have an insane advantage in the enc department... how the hell is that balanced?"

This is um... not true.. Multi minion ED dependent teams have disadvantage. A team of 4 tanks, no disadvantage, a team of 2 HP walls, 1 enchanter, and one heavy tank, not really a problem. Yes, the tank can't use as big of weapon, but he doesn't need to, he has a lot more defense. Any amount of ENC possible on a one minion team, is possible on a four minion team of equal MPR. Actually, it's sometimes easier for four minions, but you don't want to hear about that.

three4thsforsaken February 24 2010 2:48 PM EST

"Single and low minion number teams have an insane advantage in the enc department... how the hell is that balanced?"

Why not? Wasn't encumbrance introduced so we stop slapping silly amounts of NW on relatively small minions? Like Freed's wall or the mini tanks we used to have.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 24 2010 3:02 PM EST

Relatively small minions?

I've got 13m STR and 6m HP (after AS) how is that a small minion?

Even if we go based just on XP that minion has well over 7m levels raw... Why shouldn't a multi minion team with AS be able to run as large a tank as a single minion team with HP? Not one good reason... not one.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 24 2010 3:11 PM EST

maybe we could give single minion teams the same number of item slots if our goal is to make them entirely equal. ; )

QBRanger February 24 2010 3:12 PM EST

I do not believe novice is complaining about AS not working as a generality.

I think, and he can state for sure, that he wants consistency in the application of how CB runs.

If GS and EC both effect ENC, why not AS?

If we want to be consistent, they either have all ED/EO spells effect ENC (before battles actually start) or have none effect ENC.

Since HP is one of the main parts of ENC, AS should effect it if we let other spells.

Alternatively, we can get rid of all HP involvement in ENC.

But let us be consistent in how the rules of CB are applied.

three4thsforsaken February 24 2010 3:14 PM EST

Cause there should be a reason for exp concentration. A lack of versatility with a pay off of brute force has always been the balancing factor of minion count.

You have a decently large minion and slapped on a bunch of huge str boosting gear. It's a big minion, it has tons of encumbrance. I really don't see the problem. Maybe it can't wear the size of the weapon that you want, but I don't see why you should be entitled to wield such a crazy huge weapon (or two).

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- February 24 2010 3:19 PM EST

USD players are so spoiled lol ^^.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 24 2010 3:20 PM EST

so if we make it consistent and cut the encumbrance granted in half, that would work? ; )

i do love consistency as well and that is the major reason i had a problem with junctioned evasion working one way and junctioned bloodlust working another. i agree, make it consistent and then tweak encumbrance levels if they aren't doing their job.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] February 24 2010 3:25 PM EST

NW equipped on Dagobah: 802,719,855

Total ENC on Team Rocket: 774,045,486

QBRanger February 24 2010 3:25 PM EST

USD players are so spoiled lol ^^.

Tell that to Hatch or Windwalker would ya :)

so if we make it consistent and cut the encumbrance granted in half, that would work? ; )

If that is what is needed for better gameplay, I would be all for it.

And I agree completely about how junction is working.

To 3/4ths:

The would you be adverse to not having EC and GS effect ENC?

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- February 24 2010 3:28 PM EST

I like DM how it is. If AS effected ENC, then DM would become almost mandatory at upper levels, as DM would be a hard counter to NW on AS teams. You're saying that you like choices, well I choose not to use DM, and if this change happened DM would be almost a necessity to compete at the upper echelons of the game.

That would also be a nerf to EC, which I feel would make EC almost useless. One of the things that makes EC appealing is that it effects USD users who just want the most bang for their buck.

You'll find most non-usd users have no problems with ENC, and in most cases aren't even CLOSE to hitting their ceilings...


AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] February 24 2010 3:28 PM EST

It has been stated that AS granted HP is not real hp. For instance it doesn't increase TSA regen, nor will the TSA regenerate while the minion still has AS hp. GS granted str however is real str and does affect skills based on str.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 24 2010 3:30 PM EST

3/4: I'm going ot in my own thread here but the simple answer is that I'm being required to match the nw of the big bows to counter them, and that's fine. However I can't hit the massive evasion and db users and still have a physical offense because of enc. If all tanks at the top are going to have to be either single minion or super late hiring multi minion teams that's fine, but I want it known that we're being railroaded that way.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 24 2010 3:31 PM EST

GS based str isn't real str, it's not boosted by str gear...

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] February 24 2010 3:32 PM EST

Then a base BL and archery should give a full effect for a 20 str GS enchanter.

QBRanger February 24 2010 3:34 PM EST

GS granted str however is real str and does affect skills based on str.

I disagree.

The strength granted by GS is not subject to a bonus from strength inducing items.

If it was real strength, it would be subject to bonuses from the TSA, HoE etc...

It is "phantom" strength, like the HP from AS.

The TSA works on the native hp a minion has, like the TSA works on the native strength a minion has.

three4thsforsaken February 24 2010 3:34 PM EST

>The would you be adverse to not having EC and GS effect ENC?

Sure? I don't know enough about the current metagame to say if it'll offset anything. The way I look at it is:

game balance is most important
consistency is nice but only if it doesn't adversely affect game balance.

I feel Jon had EC and GS do what they did without thinking too hard. GS needed a boost, why not?

I dunno, not enough people use either for me to know.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 24 2010 3:34 PM EST

You're just making my point about consistency being a problem for me now

QBRanger February 24 2010 3:36 PM EST

Then a base BL and archery should give a full effect for a 20 str GS enchanter.

I have no idea how you come to the conclusion.

Skills are based upon the strength of the minion: native + item enhanced + spell enhanced/diminished.

Items work only on the native HP/dex/strength a minion has.

Always been like that.

However, AS not helping ENC is something which is an anomaly. In which I agree with novice that is should be changed for consistency.

{Wookie}-Jir.Vr- February 24 2010 3:36 PM EST

Also, where is the appeal of training natural HP if this change went through?

Nov, how much XP do you have in your AS?

Wraithlin February 24 2010 3:41 PM EST

Natural HP can't be dispelled, and can be affected by TSA, AS cannot, there is still plenty of appeal.

However I think having both a NW-PR link and ENC is redundant.

I vote we just remove ENC altogether and just tweak the NW-PR links on items you feel need it.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] February 24 2010 3:52 PM EST

Let me put the link in a better way then.

You have SS and AS the SS is only based on natural HP not AS hp.

You have BL and Archery, they are based on both GS, EC, and natural str.

ENC for HP is only based on natural HP.

ENC for STR is based on GS, EC and natural STR.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 24 2010 3:59 PM EST

around 165m or 14m levels

Zenai February 24 2010 4:03 PM EST

However I think having both a NW-PR link and ENC is redundant.
I vote we just remove ENC altogether and just tweak the NW-PR links on items you feel need it.



Do it and I will pwn many more than I already do in this game >:-D

TheHatchetman February 24 2010 4:24 PM EST

I get a HUGE PR boost from my wall set (125.7m nw) and my BoNE (124.1m nw). Enough so that it is suicide to my rewards to even think about using them before late 6/20 when all semblance of a challenge bonus has dropped off. What's more is that at just under 250m net worth, it means I need to pump ~5 million extra levels into my heavy tank for it to not be weighed down by encumbrance up there.

Spent two years working on a gear set. Spent a whopping $0 USD on it. Can't even touch it til long after an NCB is over. But I'm actually kinda a fan of encumbrance being some way of holding people off of these massive spending binges, but I'm very much of the opinion that having both encumbrance and a nw-PR link is redundant.

Demigod February 24 2010 4:35 PM EST

I'm very much of the opinion that having both encumbrance and a nw-PR link is redundant.


+1

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] February 24 2010 4:41 PM EST

PR is a representation of how strong your team is. ENC is a limitation on how much NW you can add without penalties.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] February 24 2010 4:50 PM EST

If you take away PR then a team with nothing equipped and a team with full enc (something like 1 billion NW potentially) are the same strong? On the other hand if you remove enc what is to stop someone from going with 10 billion NW. 100% reduction with AC? At the highest levels of the game increased PR does not reduce your rewards.

QBRanger February 24 2010 5:10 PM EST

I have always wanted ENC to be a character wide application. Based upon MPR.

If over, all minions, including their spells and stats are effected by the ratio.

Soxjr February 24 2010 5:29 PM EST

Then you are just taking away one of the only advantages of single minion characters out there if you do that ranger.

three4thsforsaken February 24 2010 6:55 PM EST

no kidding.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 24 2010 7:37 PM EST

Why shouldn't a multi minion team with AS be able to run as large a tank as a single minion team with HP? Not one good reason... not one.


Come on Nov, you *cannot* be serious here...

How about;

The ability to use the TSA *and* a Tattoo.
The ability to use both AMF and EC (or rather more than one EO/ED at the same time)
Kill Slots
PL
Invisibility
Leadership

The point here is that the multi minion team *has* to sacrifice something (and personally it doesn't, in any way atm), becuase you can use *more* equipment and abilites to suppliment your Tank.

At the very least then, let's make HP 10% more effective for Single Minions, to make up for the utter lack of PL. And allow them to use a TSA and a Tattoo...

If you want to up your ENC on a multi minion Tank, Train GS.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 24 2010 7:41 PM EST

However I think having both a NW-PR link and ENC is redundant.


They both serve different functions.

the NW-PR link is about accurate 'Power' representation. I made a detailed debate topic about this.

ENC is supposed to stop people starting a new Bonus charcater and using a x50000000 Weapon (which increased the PR by, nothing...) to automatically PWN everything around them.

And to control out of size, uber Weapons inflated by USD spending.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 24 2010 7:45 PM EST

You're just making my point about consistency being a problem for me now


As for consistency, can anyone answer if DMed ED's reduce that minions ENC?

Miandrital February 24 2010 7:50 PM EST

They don't.

I think that encumbrance hurts way too much in the lower levels. Up to 200k mpr it is very difficult to get a positive CB, simply because you can't equip enough gear to compete with the bigger characters, and 50 tournaments have all but destroyed the "soft" targets that are still unretired.

That is why I think AS helping with enc would rock

Wraithlin February 24 2010 7:53 PM EST

>ENC is supposed to stop people starting a new Bonus charcater and using a x50000000 Weapon (which increased the PR by, nothing...) to automatically PWN everything around them.

Well I've thought having the x stat not give PR has been really unbalanced since I learned that it was like that.

I realize that the ability to hit matters more than how much damage you deal, as if you are hitting 0 times per round then it doesn't matter if you have a billion for your X stat. But it is easy to make sure you don't miss everytime.

And the only reason it's not currently redundant is because the X stat not giving PR is broken along with top level not getting penalties for high PR.

In theory they should be redudant. ENC is there to ensure you don't put too much equipment on your characters. NW-PR is there so that you balance how much gear you have with how much you get for rewards.

If you just fixed NW-PR for X stat and gave penalities for having huge amounts of it at any level, then you won't have to ever worry about ENC.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 24 2010 7:54 PM EST

Mian, that's a problem with the large MPR, low Score teams, that should be receiving it's own fix.

Not a reason to buff AS and make 4 Minion teams with AS the default.

If DMing an ED (which when trained increases ENC on that minion) doesn't reduce that minions ENC, then increases from ED's shouldn't increase *any* minnions ENC either.

This leaves GS as the inconsistent spell, not AS. And I'm happy to belive that it was a concious design to boost GS a little.

I don't think anyone would seriously want to ask for GS to no longer increase ENC, but I'd not complain if it changed.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 24 2010 7:56 PM EST

If you just fixed NW-PR for X stat and gave penalities for having huge amounts of it at any level, then you won't have to ever worry about ENC.


Yup.

You could use your uber inflated weapon, but suffer hideous Reward penalties for doing so.

Oh, unless you're in the 6/20 exemption zone... For which ENC is still needed to limit USD weapons.

As for the hitting, it's not really a problem for 100 Base CTH Elbows, one of the largest unbalanced USD weapons. ;)

TheHatchetman February 24 2010 8:07 PM EST

If you take away PR then a team with nothing equipped and a team with full enc (something like 1 billion NW potentially) are the same strong?


Why would they have nothing equipped? If not for the PR addition, that would be silly. If people aren't putting money into their gear, they deserve to lose. If encumbrance is too high so that it's impossible to keep decent gear compaired to the next guy, then cut encumbrance.

But to demand XP concentration and then slam a brutal PR boost on someone that just wants to use their gear is essentially discouraging ALL upgrades outside of tattoos. I spent over 2 years on getting my gear set big. I've spent a whopping 2 months using it in that time. I could have grown faster for those 2 months had I not done so. Luckily I didn't really care about the char I was using, and a changemonth made the decision to give it up really easy.

Then again, reading this compared to the OP, I see I've gotten really off-topic. My bad :P

AS adding to encumbrance does seem a bit OP in a sense, but then again, the ToA adds 15*tat level to encumbrance, and can't be dispelled. It's all a matter of perspective.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] February 24 2010 8:14 PM EST

There are ways to get around the PR increase and enc reduction both. For instance you could put a full wall gear set on a base minion and have another huge minion with a large GS providing all the necessary enc to use the wall set. Because it is on a base minion it would not add any PR.

QBRanger February 24 2010 8:17 PM EST

And forget about having any AC if you fight someone with DM.

It is not something I personally would do. Or I would recommend to anyone playing the game.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 24 2010 9:12 PM EST

So it's a gameable system that punishes people for having and upgrading gear... yeah that's JUST what the game needs.

In any case the only argument I've seen here against making AS effect enc is that it will help USD users. I think there have been a good number of examples of why that's not true. If it's a balance issue and single minions deserve to have double the encumbrance of their multi minion counterparts that's fine, just don't complain when there isn't a tank in the top five with more than two minions. The current system is terrible for growth, items, scalability, and most of all fun... but if keeping the anomalous items out of the hands of multi minion teams (because it's sure not stopping the single minions) is worth it then so be it.

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] February 24 2010 9:18 PM EST

By that same factor, since you want consistency, SS should take AS hp into account when determining your SS granted AC.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 24 2010 9:29 PM EST

sure sold, it's nearly the most useless thing in game as it is...

but that's an awful tame response from the biggest detractor in the thread

AdminNemesia [Demonic Serenity] February 24 2010 9:33 PM EST

I am only trying to point out that there is a consistency between not allowing AS to give enc while letting GS to give it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 25 2010 3:08 AM EST

In any case the only argument I've seen here against making AS effect enc is that it will help USD users.


AS effecting ENC would mean we might just as well remove ENC totally.

That's the arguement.

It's fleshed out in more detail in the thread Ranger linked.

If you want to discuss whether we need ENC, I think the answer is obvious...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 25 2010 3:14 AM EST

OK, here's some more.

AS is *already* the highest trained thing in the game. It counts a total of 16.5% of *all* XP spent in CB, and is above even natural HP.

Linking this to ENC would make ENC a worthless stat, and make AS even more of a must have than it already is.

The most trained thing in Cb really doesn't need any more 'power'.

If you want to up the ENC on a multi minion Tank, train GS.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 25 2010 3:21 AM EST

but if keeping the anomalous items out of the hands of multi minion teams (because it's sure not stopping the single minions)


There is currently *zero* Single Minion Teams in the Top 10 teams, with 7 of them being 4 Minions.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 25 2010 3:31 AM EST

4!

As for consistency, I'm starting to think there isn't any to worry about anyway. Everything is on a case by case basis.

Out of the EO's, EC reduces ENC. AMF and DM don't. (AMF should reduce the ENC of Mages with Trained DD)

Out of the EDs, GS increases ENC, the rest don't.

Neither the EO's or ED's are consistent within themselves, let alone the rest of the ability sets. ;)
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